#Commodore News
56 messages in this thread
All,
I've been to my local Ami dealer today to get a SCSI interface and in the
conversation he stated that CBM had been taken over by Sony. I said "so
thats the latest rumour is it?" to which he stated quite firmly that it
was
fact and not fiction but would not comment further!
Anyone else heard this or have any comments?
It would seem strange that Sony go after C= other than for the TV-top
decoder for Video on demand/cable services that was supposed to be
developed with HP in mind. The Ami itself can't help them as they're
working on a new Highpower home console called the Play Station X, or PS-X
for short…
Kevin 68030/40 A1200…
Flying AutoPilot from Surrey in the UK
Kevin,
It more than likely is wishful thinking on your dealer's part. Don't you
think, if true, it would be all over the news services?
What DID happen today was a large number of layoffs in West Chester (see the
message left by former CATS team member Larry Feldman.
Among those getting the axe was Randell Jesup. Dave Haynie and Chris Ludwig
(the CD32 guru) survived. I spoke with one of the surviving people there and
was told "the old girl still has a way to go yet". What that means is anyone's
guess.
Rumor mill says CBM USA (I believe the correct designation is Commodore-Amiga
Inc.) will close its doors this week. Commodore International Limited will
continue.
I can't help wondering if 47 people from engineering have been let go and
Commodore in the US will close it's doors. What are those 23 people working on,
and does this mean the end of anything from Commodore in the US? Up until now I
have been trying to keep optimistic about the whole matter. In the meantime I
wish all the laid off the best of luck.
Richard -> AutoPilot on the A1000
The European market may be good for Commodore, but the personal computer
business is a global one. To shut us out completely would be eventual
suicide. As a previous post for a few weeks back suggested, just because
C= chooses not to do business here, doesn't mean that Compaq, or some
other company won't do business there.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
…Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Intel"?
> eventual suicide.
I thought that's what Commodore upper management was already doing to the
company. At least it seemed like it.
Richard -> AutoPilot on the A1000
Oops…. sorry!
I keep forgetting that the seem to be TRYING to piss us off. They have
for a couple of years now!
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
…Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Intel"?
He is dreaming. The company right now is only the technology and the
people. Track record would indicate that Sony would not want the upper
management or sales force. And they certainly wouldn't stand for
engineering/technical layoffs. And they have no use for the technology.
And, since CBM is all but buried, they wouldn't need to buy them out to
shut them down to eliminate some competition…. Methinks your dealer has
some interesting chemical pastimes….
wmc – via Autopilot!
I, too, have reservations about a SONY scenario, and I work with them. They are
very keenly tuned to marketing to lifestyles, etc. All I can say is IF it is
true that SONY had already obtained 15% share a few months back, then maybe
there's some hope…
"IF it is true that SONY had already obtained 15% share"
If they're talking about any stock that trades on the NYSE or any other major
American exchange, they would have had to declared their ownership as soon as
it hit 5%.
I have no idea of what the rules are for non-US companies.
Jerry
Yeah, I've no verification on this. My dealer thinks its Phillips to watch cuz
CD32 is killing CD-I in Eurpoe…
"My dealer thinks its Phillips to watch cuz CD32 is killing CD-I in Eurpoe…"
From what I understand of CD-I sales, they don't represent a significant
factor anywhere in the world.
Jerry
Here is the thinking that occured to me today. Maybe, as an insider yoiu
can tell me where the flaw is.
As I recall, about 5-7 years ago Sony had an entry in ght PC market
breifly. It seems they rapidly decided computers were not their thing.
Now, if they are interested in C=, it would be only for the game machines
and set-top box technolgy. e.g. only the CD32 part of C=. On investigating
they would find that a unique development platform, the Amiga computer,
was all but required to do efficient CD32 application development.
Now they focus on the Amiga track-record and see a machine that even some
old hands from IBM and Apple could not overcome market resistance to. (The
technical merits of the machine are of no consequence since marketdriods
are doing the purchase evaluation). So, in order to gain this technology,
they have to bring along the overhead of the Amiga computer, and get back
into a market they neve developed an affinity for with a product that
can't compete with Pentium, PowerPC or the lower Macintosh and 486 clones
from a market standpoint.
I think Sony is too smart and the technology of CBM too much of a
departure from thier long term plan at too high a risk for the potential
returns to make it worth Sony to buy CBM.
The HP scenario is more feasible, but I would see that as using the chip
level technolgy and a few existing Amigas for settop box development while
a tool set is developed on the HP mini and PC line to provide a develpment
environment for the CD32 chip set. AAA would not need to be developed, and
the Amiga computer line would be discarded, again as a sales volume
increase dead elephant. Cooperman and other tlented industry big shots
couldn't market it, why should HP try to duplicate their mistakes.
The only way I see for the Amiga computer line to continue would be if an
Amiga nerd bought them out, or a consortium of Amiga developers buy out
the technology, neither of which, due to fincances etc do I see as a real
possibility.
So I see the choice as dump 'em or keep them as working museum peices.
Especilly a 4000T if you cna find one. Someday it will be a collectors
item for the "Museum of computer oddities" along with those Osbornes…
wmc – via Autopilot!
The only things that strikes me about all this is that if CBM was heading for
Chapter 11 it ought to have happened by now (it's in their best interest to
file fast vs. slow). Thus, I suspect something else. It is very difficult to
gain a PC market, more difficult to get a multimedia market and even harder to
get a desktop video market. The main attraction of a buyer ought to be access
to a niche market. Think 3d0, Phillips or SONY for the cd32 Europe market.
Think HP for a PC market. Think Silicon Graphics for a desktop video market. As
a market strategist I think the real asset is the access to a market, NOT the
A4000 motherboard or the AA or AAA chipset, etc..Think about it. For example,
in Europe Phillips has 1% share of the CD-ROM market. CBM has 40%. Phillips
spend g'zillions. CBM spent probably little. Easiest way for Phillips to jump
start its stalled market is to buy it from CBM!
"The only things that strikes me about all this is that if CBM was heading for
Chapter 11 it ought to have happened by now (it's in their best interest to
file fast vs. slow)."
Sorry, but that's not true as a generalization.
If Commodore is proceeding satisfactorily toward a compromise and settlement
or a pre-packaged Chapter 11, there would be absolutely no reason to file
prematurely and, perhaps, no reason to ever file.
What is far more disturbing is Commodore's complete silence.
Jerry
Expect a Chapter 7 in 2-3 weeks.
That's liquidation isn't it?
Richard -> AutoPilot on the A1000
Yes. The scenerio I see coming …
If there is any interest in purchasing the technology (and I've been told that
that are several, ie., more than 2, that are interested) I don't believe it'll
happen before a Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Why? Because takeover of the company
would make the new owners liable for CIL's debt. If they wait, they can get
what they want from the bankruptcy court and not inherit the debt.
The thing to see if those interested parties will continue the Amiga computer
line, or just gut the technology. Thus the end of the Amiga home computer. This
is really getting depressing, guess I should maybe start getting used to
Windows. 🙁 🙁 🙁 !!!
Richard
Actually Chapter 7 is the best scenerio.
The reason?
A Judge must decide who gets the assets, not Medhi Ali or any of the
Commodore cronies.
When someone picks up the technology the fastest way to make a return on
the investment is to license the technology to all of the interested
corporations — read SCALA, Newtek, etc.
Think of the Amiga as a licensed technology. Think of this as the end of
Commodore.
The real question remains is who will license it and what for. Is the
home computer Amiga dead? Who knows.
By the way, my co-worker at SCALA is Mike Levin. He will be here for a CO
as soon as there is some real information. Believe me folks, he is trying
to influence things. I have come to have a great deal of respect for him.
He'll be _HERE_ before anywhere else. 🙂
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Yes, and if you check on ENS Reuters is carrying a "qwikie" which reads
"Commodore International says to liquidate". This may mean that the
liquidation has been filed as of today.
John
Yes I saw that. 🙁
HMMMM…I guess we'll have to check out tomorrows conference re: "liquidation"
to see the latest..(sigh)
Although I plan on attending (spectator only!), I can't really imagine
what this guy can tell us that we haven't heard on CNN, Headline News, or
other media services. I really doubt anything more earth shattering than
what we heard Friday has occured since then.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <clap cla{%& NO CARRIER
I'll probsbly watch a tape of SeaQuest or Robocop and say goodbye to the
Toaster as a market as well…
Wow, you guys have Robocop already? I didn't think it was out yet!
seaQuest is a definate tonight, but it comes on at 8 here, so I'll be done
in time!
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <clap cla{%& NO CARRIER
I'm heading up now, after I find out if I can resurrect speech on the 4000…
> Wow, you guys have Robocop already?
Yeah. If you don't, consider yourself REAL lucky.
-larry
Maybe some news from Europe :
– C= Belgium went bankrupt on April 19th, a few days after C= France had
undergone the same …
– a few days later C= France re-appeared as a new company, namely : Amiga
France
– C= Belgium did not re-appear. C= Belgium was responsible for operations
in Belgium, Holland and Luxemburg, all small Amiga countries (Belgium
approx 10.000 Amiga's/year, Holland 20.000 Amiga's).
– Now strange thing : atleast 1 employee (former sales manager ) of C=
Belgium was transferred one day before the bankruptcy to C= Holland. Why ?
– I spoke to him earlier this day and surprisingly, he was very confident
about the future of the Amiga ??? He told me : C=Holland is NOT closed,
and was saved from the bankruptcy through some tricks (the structure of C=
is very complicated, and infact made for this kind of tricks), even more :
C= Holland is the holding company of C=Germany and C=Uk, 2 countries were
the Amiga is very popular. Last week some people of C= talked to Philips
to get monitors. Very strange things for a company that is bankrupt …
– General feelings here are that Irv is playing some tricks, and that the
Amiga will survive. Note : there are very strong rumours about a Japanese
company willing to buy C= after the bankruptcy proceedings. Now, if Irv
could save the Amiga from the bankruptcy of C=, and he sells the Amiga to
that nameless company …
– lots of IFF's, but a small chance of something good coming out of this
… (although I'm not looking forward to another few years with Irv Gould
…)
Herman
Commodre Intl did _not_ go bankrupt. That is designed to allow the company to
re-issue from the ashes.
They are starting to "liquidate". That means selling everything they can and
paying of the debts. Since the European operations are owned by them, they are
property and must be sold. They don't intend to continue in business.
Of course, some white knight may appear and buy everything and start selling
Amiga's, but I doubt it. Who could have the funds to make the purchase,
re-start producation, erase the bad taste in peoples mouth, and advertise?
The banks woun't allow someone to buy Amiga rights for a song, they want their
loans back!
The quotes of 10,000 or 20,000 units a year are a drop in the bucket. Their
competitors are moving that many machines every few days. Apple sells about
14,000 machines _every_ business day! The peecee market is _much_ bigger. If
Commodre Europe could not hack it, how could they hope to with out risking
millions more dollars?
I just don't see it happening. Could be wrong. Hope I'm wrong. But I doubt
it.
—— Andrew
Maybe some oil rich arabian prince is looking for a financial adventure….
know any rich arabian princes?
I don't know if I would say "bad taste"… I've never once heard anyone
say the Amiga was crap… most just didn't know what it was.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Quit"?
Hello Andrew !
Commodore Holding BV is a Dutch company. Actually they are based in the
Dutch Antilles, a tax paradise (together with approx 10 other C= firms
..). The European operations are part of the Dutch holding company.
Infact, the holding firm of the Phillipine plant is also based in the
Antilles. Production can restart today, if someone pays the bills …
All those companies are NOT part of the C= holding company that's
liquidating …
Al this makes me wonder if indeed rumors are thrue that Irv Gould is
playing a financial game, getting rid of the debts, and only keeping the
most intresting parts, so a buyer can come along … C= France re-appeared
a few weeks ago as Amiga France, maybe all other European firms plan to do
the same.
Remember : most software engineers are gone at C=, but WB/KS 3.1 was ready
to ship, and a RISC Amiga would mean a total rewrite of the operating
system, so the "old" people were not necessary anymore. Most of the
hardware engineers are still at C= …
Now, I don't know what will happen, and I'm not to confident that the
Amiga will survive, and I do feel at the moment like a dinosaur, but I'm
not ready to die yet …
Herman
Andrew,
Can you or some-one else give us a "Family-Tree" for CBM and its
subsidiares (?) and other related companies.
I checked with CBM NZ at 11.00 AM today (Monday) and they were still in
business…..according to the Receptionist.
I also disagree with your point regarding how many Amiga's may get sold in
relation to MAC's and PC's, the point is to make a profit on what you
sell. This is a "niche" market approach and is fine by me and my Amiga.
I hope that Mr Gould et al do get the Amiga in there and at em again even
in a down sized company.
Rgds
Laurie Carroll AKL NZ
Longdistance Autopilot
Andrew,
I have had several reports that most of the sales companys are not
owned by Commodore International Inc., but by another company by the name
of Commodore Holding BV. This holding company is apparently _not_ owned by
CIL, but is completly seperate. This would protect all these companys from
any liquidation procedings forced on CIL.
Dean Brown
DKB
Herman,
the transfer…is that Wim?
Pete
Hello Peter,
The transfer is indeed Wim … C= Holland still isn't closed. The boss
there is now a German guy, only transferred last week … Strange thing to
do if they really are liquidating …
Officially Wim is there to be the support for the Belgian dealers, but
this doesn't make sense. We all talk the same language, and why would he
be there for support, if there is nothing to sell ?
Herman
Herman
Well, my "sometimes accurate" financial source reports that CBU did ZERO
mation on the exchanges today. It traded NO WHERE, not even in the
smaller exchanges. ZERO Volumes. I may hear the distant voice of Rosanne
Arnold signing in the distance….
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Clap On! <clap clap> Clap Off! <clap cla{%& NO CARRIER
Steve,
Unfortunately it looks like the word's official. The business section of the
Chicago Tribune today indicated that CBM (globally) is going out of business.
What a shame!
Regards,
— Steve
Yikes…sad, I fell like I've lost something beyond a good computer, a
community of tasteful fellow geeks with nowhere to go but Windows I guess.
Also, the end of the Toaster hurts just as much..not a good feeling…
Hey, watch where you sling the mud! <BG> If I have to abandon the Amiga
eventually, the last place I'll go will be Windoze. I could get a Mac, or
use OS/2, or some child of them both.
Paul – Minus Pins!
Do you like OS/2? Should I drift there from AMigaland?
Since 2.1 came out, it is much better. Harry
I have 3.0 and there is no narrator or speak! Seems to me there's some way to
get it back but I haven't figures it all out yet…
Well, if you're stuck with peecees, OS/2 isn't a bad place to land. PM is
over-complicated and messy, but uts still has some nice features. And
native OS/2 apps – few and far between – are often excellent. Just make
sure you build a machine that's compatible.
Otoh, don't count the Amiga out quite yet. A friend of mine who may know
thinks that CEI may be prepared to take the reins. An interesting rumour.
Paul – Minus Pins!
Hows OS/2 at multitasking? What about the native GUI speed (vs. rather pokey
Windoze)? As for Amiga…probably will become like '57 Chevy. Priced by
connoisseurs who swap parts to keep them going…
If you think the end of the Amiga means the end of the Toaster, you have
another thing coming. A few AGA chips on a stand-alone card would make
the toaster work in any CPU. The Flyer doesn't need the Amiga at all to
run, but does use the Toaster's real-time wipes and there are many work
arounds available and becoming available on other platforms for that.
LightWave, you can rest assured, is poised to thrive and survive.
Doesn't some of the Toaster's magic require good multitasking and a blitter?
Neither are common…
Not only that, but at least 2 of the AGA chips are actually made by HP…
So they wouldn't need CBM's chip foundary to make these beasties. Just the
legal rights to do so.
MOS via Autopilot & Amiga
Not so. To convert IBM's to NTSC (which is what makes Amiga so video
compatible) is quite expensive (about the price of a new Toster4000). AGA
has NOTHING to do with the Toster (with the exception of more colors and
screen modes on the Toster 4000). You do not need AGA to run a Toaster!
You do need, however, the dedicated chip set that CANNOT be run on PC's.
Agnus, Denise, Paula is what sets the Amiga apart from the Mac and PC's.
Plus, lets just use a little common sense here. Don't you think that if
NewTek could have developed their Toaster for the market saturated PC that
they would have done so over the endangered Amiga? I do!
When you get right down to it, I'm sure you can develop the Toaster for
the PC, but not cost effectively. You'd probably have to triple or
quadruple the current price.
-=Andrew=-
.. and ofcourse get Agnus, Denise and Paula to join the club!….
Mario -= MoToRoLa RuLeZ, InTeL FooLZ! =-
68020 aGa inside….
$6000 to $8000 for a Toaster on a PC, still small bucks.
The current equiv of Toaster on PC is $10K mSPR for board and software.
wmc – via Autopilot!
A new name for the amiga " Tucker II"
Wayne,
I would tend to agree! The only thing that confused me was that he was
*VERY* sure that Sony had bought them. But this comes from someone who
after selling me a SCSI board told me that the port on the board was "some
special SCSI adaptor". It is in fact a standard DB25, the same as Mac
SCSI cables!
It just proves how difficult it is to find a dealer who _really_ knows
their business, and this is arguably the UK's biggest Ami dealer (Silica
for those of you who live over here) 🙁
Kevin 68030/40 A1200…
Flying AutoPilot from Surrey in the UK