#'AMAZING SIMILARITIES'
63 messages in this thread
Murphy,
Some people believe in UFO's too.<g> And while I suspect extra-terrestrial
life exists somewhere out there in the wide expanse of the universe, I don't
believe they've landed here on Terra Firma. But that's just my opinion. <g>
-JE
John,
>>> And while I suspect extra-terrestrial life exists somewhere** out there in
the wide expanse of the universe,<<<
I would agree with this as being an accurate statement….Given the size of the
known universe.
>>> I don't believe they've landed here on Terra Firma. But that's just my
opinion. <g><<<
I only partially disagree here…If "they" have "landed" it most likley wasn't
intentional…Given a technology exists that would allow for travel between
earth and……leeeetsss sayyyy the constellation
"Canus Major" to the general area of the Star Sirius**….[an educated guess
<g>]…..
Anyone capable of such a technology would have about as much interest in us as
we have in the moss that grows on the north side of a tree.
Granted there are a few people that find moss interesting but the chances of
anyone wishing to try to communicate or even chanceing upon a means to do so
would be highly unlikley.
I've always been extreemly interested in "Space" but for some different
reasons…..certain unnatural phenominum that occur in space also may happen on
a different scale right here.
Until we examine our own minds capabilities fully and realize the true
potential of the "Human" mind, I think we're wasting our time and money on
"Outer Space"….I like the technology but I think we've missed the point
completly. Until we recognize the "Many One-Ness of the Universe" as an East
Indian Freind of mine would put it….we will not grasp the true meaning of the
Universe. It's all connected…All we gotta do is listen!<g>
Murph'
Hi James.
You goin into some heavy topics here. I will say I agree on your opinion. There
is alot more to it then I think we even know. I think
we should just imagine what's out in space and focus on terra ferma.
Mike White [SDP]
Thank's for the response Mike, after thinking over the general meaning of this
conversation I've come to realize it's actually a veeery old but true message.
<g>
Murph'
James,
It seems to me, that for whatever reason an E.T. was traveling through our
solar system, Earth would be an irresistible place to investigate. One thing we
seem to have in common with all the higher intellingence animals is curiousity.
I wouldn't expect an even more highly advanced civilisation to be less curious.
So I don't agree that earth would be as interesting as moss on the north side
of a tree. <g> On the contrary, humans don't make sense in the balance of
nature and for that reason alone I would think a more highly advanced
civilisation would want to try to understand why.
A friend of mine once said, the scientists and engineers would reach for the
stars, and the philosophers and poets would want to stay here and ponder them.
I don't agree that we're wasting our time and money on "outer space". But
that's a debate I'd rather leave for another time and place.
-JE
John,
Actually in this conversation there really are no "absolutes", I suppose if I
were smart enough to build a real starship I'd be fasinated by the "critters in
the local zoo", I probably would feel sorry for em' and pity their ignorance,[
Ya' gotta think about what's happening on a global scale!….way too much
murder and mayhem!]…. I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to talk to
them.<g>
You're also making some "Assumptions" about what forms of life may exist based
on our current knowledge. I think that there is a flaw there.
Perhaps there are forms of intellegence way beyond anthing even conceived of by
our most creative Science Fiction writers.
Why would "They" even need Vehicles?….much less Vehicles that resemble
prototype military items with running lights that are visible in our spectrum
of visible light?
Do you know what spectrum a butterfly see's in?
Why would UFO running lights have to be visible to _US_?
Why do "Aliens" have to be Humanoid? Why would they have such a similar form?
Especially given the reported "Manuvers" seen by Witnesses.
Think about what would happen if you were in a Vehicle doing Mach28 or greater
that was capable of a 45 to 90 degree turn? There wouldn't be enough left of
you to scrape off the wall. <g>
How would you have to rearrange your atoms to survive such manuvers?
I agree that there is life elswhere and it may have passed us by…I actually
witnessed a UFO many years ago with 2 other people. It never landed and was so
far out all we could see was reflection off its surface…however it made a
series of manuvers a plane couldn't do in any stretch of the imagination. 45+
degree turns at unbeleivably high speeds we were able to track it for more than
three min., I actually had enough time to go in to the house and get my mother
outside to see it also..she couldn't beleive it either but we all saw it…so
what was it?
I don't know..but I do know it's not gonna lower my taxes or make us nicer to
each other. <g>
>>> Earth would be an irresistible place to investigate<<<
Well The Photos taken Close up from the Moon make it seem so but when your
looking at things 1500 years away it's kind of hard to see that kind of detail.
At least in our range of Vision….He..He. <g>.
I certainly am glad that the space program exists because we've all benifitted
from the technology involved.
Just think what we could do with the same amount of money invested in Bio-Feed
Back and Brain Research!
I guess we all have our personal favorite Technologies, I guess I'd just like
to see us all get along together first before we try to get involved in
"Off-World" Experiences.
Murph'
James,
I made no explicit observations with regard to the shape or form of ET's or
even mode of travel. I wouldn't make that assumption. I think however, as
you're making a point of it, that as an evolutionary process, higher beings
would have to have a respect for the natural order, I percieve it as a right of
passage, in other words they would have self destructed if they couldn't have
handled the mental/physical technology that made travel of that sort possible.
As a result they would have to have a consciousness and a curiousity about
other living beings. I think you're making an assumption that they are so
advanced that they wouldn't find life on earth very interesting, and I strongly
disagree. I can't concieve of higher beings not being interested in other life
forms for a variety of reasons.
If you get a chance, check out the series "People of the Forest" playing on
A&E. I found it very thought provoking and rather astounding. It doesn't make
the case we're debating either way, but it may have an impact on how you
percieve this discussion.
-JE
John,
>> I think you're making an assumption that they are so advanced that they
wouldn't find life on earth very interesting, and I strongly disagree <<
Perhaps your right John, I guess I'm projecting my own personality on that one
<bg>.
>> "People of the Forest" playing on A&E. I found it very thought provoking
and rather astounding<<
That's the only thing I miss about not having cable.
Those few [ less than 1% ] worthwhile programs.
We Don't Have Cable or Satellite. It's kind of humerous because I was a
Partner in the Original Satellite Distributorship located in Wisconsin that Set
up Dealerships and Brought Satellite TV to a 5 state area in the early 80's!
Pretty Funny…not only do I not own a dish anymore but won't even subscribe to
cable, <BG>.
Then.. you _do_ have cable and therefore know that 90% of it is Crap!
>>> I can't concieve of higher beings not being interested in other life forms
for a variety of reasons. <<<
Hmmmmm…..I'll have to think about this for a while….I'm not sure of a good
definition of "Higher Beings".
I guess going back to my point about how violent we are makes me think that
anyone with anything serious to do in the universe wouldn't want to wast their
time on a species that can't keep from destroying each other.
Looking at it from that persepctive I'd just shake my head {or whatever}
and just keep on flying.
If you were flying over Ruwanda and saw what was going on….would you be
"interested" in landing?
Not Me…Especially if I considered myself smarter that that.
Murph'
>> If you were flying over Ruwanda and saw what was going on… would you be
"interested" in landing? <<
No, but I'd be interested for several reasons. I'd want to know what these
"people" were fighting about, as it would be fairly apparent that it was not
just over food.
>> I guess going back to my point about how violent we are makes me thing that
anyone with anything serious to do in the universe wouldn't want to waste thier
time on a species that can't keep from destroying each other. <<
Ah yes, but then we really don't know do we. We haven't done it yet and while I
grant you the potential is high, and sometimes it seems like a miracle it
hasn't happened, the fact is it hasn't. If I was an E.T. this fact alone would
be worth investigating.
You raise some interesting points that really require some space to elaborate
on. The definition of "higher beings" alone could get really complicated. So
rather than try to answer each point, I'll try to present an overall
perspective.
There have been two major advances for humanity, that have tested his
intellectual development. The first was fire, the second was nuclear energy.
Fire became a very important tool for man as it allowed him to do a variety of
things once he got control of it. But it was a double edge sword because if he
misused it, it had the potential of burning down his house, destroying his
crops etc. On the other hand it could be used as a powerful weapon, preserve
his food longer and protect him from the other animals who instinctively feared
it. Once he'd mastered it, he could forge stronger tools and construct more
elaborate dwellings. How long before mankind as a whole mastered it? There's
really no way of telling for sure, but its a fair assumption that there was a
lot of tragedy along the way. This was man's first intellectual test before he
could develop further. Without it he'd still be scurring around like the rest
of the animals, but having mastered it he was able to advance. Without
mastering it he would have continued to destroy himself. But mastering is a
relative thing, evidence the fires in L.A.
Without going into great detail I think you can see the same correlation with
regard to nuclear energy. The technology mastered has the potential to feed
everyone on this planet and provide a good life for the majority of the
populace; uncontrolled it has far greater potential to devistate the entire
planet.
Now as the sun is one great big nuclear engine, it really doesn't matter if we
blow ourselves into oblivion. It would just be a ripple in space. On the other
hand, used intelligently nuclear energy has the potential to propel us into the
universe and onto distant galaxies. It all comes down to our ability to manage
it, and the intellect to use it wisely. If we don't succeed we won't be
contaminating other solar systems with our aggressive behaviour, but if we do,
then one can assume that our intellect has risen above our aggressive nature.
Without getting too abstract, it seems that whatever alien life forms are out
there, they would have to meet the same challenges. Unless the physics of the
universe is different in different parts, which seems rather unlikely. And of
course this supposes on what is known, ie: conventional travel as opposed to
"thought" travel. A debate that would be similar to how many UFO's have
traveled to earth. <g>
So this being said, there appear to be certain rights of passage which any
lifeform has to overcome to escape the bounds of their solar system. This is
what keeps less intellectually advanced civilisations from contaminating other
less advanced civilisations in the cosmic sense.
From this standpoint I think an alien civilisation visiting earth would be very
interested in our development and whether in time we would have the capacity to
overcome our destructive tendencies that we might one day be traveling to other
star systems as well.
If we can't master our intellect, we'll just leave a burnt out shell of a
planet, not much different than Mars or Venus. And in a few billion years our
sun will go supernova and destroy what remains of our solar system. No damage
done in the grande scheme of things.
One other assumption that an alien race would have to make is that while we may
have the capacity to destroy ourselves, we haven't. And that in and of it
itself would be noteworthy, as I suspect that other civilisations if they exist
have had an aggessive past as well. Its in the nature of nature.
-JE
P.S. I don't expect you to buy this interpretation, its just to let you know my
perspective. I haven't found any serious flaws in it but on the other hand you
may believe certain things that don't fit into it, which is o.k. There are many
religious points I can't or won't argue. And now that I've presented my
perspective, I've really got to cut back on answering as it takes up too much
space. <g>
I guess that basicly we are in agreement.
It's the details that sometimes get in the way. <g>
Murph'
James,
>> I guess that basically we are in agreement. It's the details that sometimes
get in the way. <<
More often than not.<g> But we don't have to agree to appreciate each other's
point of view. This is so esoteric and there are many different views. I worked
with a guy in the Air Force who took the Bible literally. For a time I tried to
explain my point of view; to him it was just wrong, because it didn't follow
scripture. And he has almost 2 thousand years of tradition behind his beliefs,
kinda hard to argue against that. 🙂
Regards,
-JE
Anyone has note that there are the same mathematical possibilities for and
against life in other planets? It really depends on how you take the data and
make the speculations about.
Anyway, I doubt that there is ANY outerspace civilization capable of travelling
from their planet to our Solar System within the known laws of physics. Of
course, maybe the universe is not as regular as we think, but I am pretty
pesimistic about that. Well, I know that there are more than meets the eye but
I am like St.Thomas, until I see it I won't believe it 🙂
What I really know is that anyone of us nor any superscientist out there
doesn't know a thing for sure. Maybe we all are a bad dream like someone said.
Like Ortega-Gasset who said, "I am I an my circustamces" or the view of reality
as a a painting within a frame (the fram being you). sigh! I suppose I have
many philosophycal readings in my back (including the Hitlerian-like Plato's
Republic for a dozen of times or so :). Not too talk about the disguised
symbolism in Unamuno's existentialist anguish (I bet that anyone in the US have
understood why the priest in Belle Epoque commits suicide). Anyone that has
grown up in the Spanish educative system will tell you about those readings <g>
Those were the good times! 🙂
ana /krazy images
>> Anyway, I doubt that there is ANY outerspace civilization capable of
travelling from thie planet to our Solar System within the known laws of
physics. <<
Actually Einstien's theory predicts a curvature of space/time which could make
space travel over long distances feasible. And there are other possibilities if
one wishes to pursue them.
-JE
I didn't said it wasn't possible. However, with Einstein or without him
(remember that all this stuff is PURE theory), travelling at near the light
speed will let you reach other galaxies (in suspended animation and all that
stuff 🙂 but by the time you come back to earth you will find a hole. A
civilization spread across the universe could be an extremely painful process,
since the people who leave will know that they will never come back. You can
jump from solar system to solar system, founding worlds but nobody will be able
to go back (or communicate) with their origin to say: "hey, finally we found
the guys who did the pyramids!" 🙂
I think that or we find a way to get Star Wars "hyperspace" to the real world
or Earth aspirations for space expansion will be limited to Pluto, no matter
how advanced we are in technology. Maybe the way is not technological but
spiritual. I don't know and I don't care since the fact that I never will see a
real USS Enterprise or one of those nice Calamari Cruisers is a pain in the
neck!
ana /krazy images
>> A civilization spread across the universe could be an extremely painful
process. <<
Did I mention the migration from Micronesia, Polynesia, et al? Painful maybe,
necessary probably. I get your point. Who knows maybe they will find a stellar
corridor in the Bermuda Triangle. <g>
-JE
What I really found more interesting that space is ocean exploration. Or maybe
just try to fix what we have broke in earth and kick the ass of some serbs! I
think that first we have to think in our current problems and then start with
the fun of Deep Space Nine <g>
ana /krazy images
ps.BTW, this is the strangest thread I have ever been in 🙂 I am wondering what
will be the next topic jump <g>
Hope you don't mind me joining in this – this thread sure took off on an
interesting tangent while I wasn't looking.
Let me preface my comments by saying I'm enough of an optimist to have had
children, that I've been a devoted Trekker since way, way back and am raising a
"next generation" of same (based on the value of the philosophical/moral issues
raised on these shows, however simply, rather than the special effects), that
sci fi used to be my favorite escapist drug (until 3DS, of course), and that a
a photograph of the Challenger 7 crew hangs on my office wall (a bitter
reminder of what can happen to the multicultural "best and brightest" when
government contracts go to the lowest bidder, and money is the lowest bidder's
god) —-
BUT ———
as much as I WISH the vision of a galactic society in which we might eventually
play a role, were true, as much as in earlier years I wished I could have been
spirited away to see the universe (and believe me I wouldn't have cared a bit
if I couldn't have come back to tell you all about it!) … I can't imagine
that any "advanced species" looking in on us would consider us much more than a
brief, self-destructive experiment on the part of this planet. If they were
non-interventionist, they might say, "Too bad, such a pretty planet, hope it
recovers…". If they were interventionist ….
I'm not talking about ecological issues, as in pollution etc., … I think the
planetary capacity for recovery from our depredations is actually pretty good
(…on a planetary time scale), it's the sick, sick behavior, which just won't
go away.
Ruwanda, Bosnia, Cambodia, Nazi Germany, the Crusades …. just a few scattered
examples of our modern killing fields…. I can understand adults killing each
other, maybe, believing in something enough to kill or die for it ——-
BUT … I cannot understand how people can kill children. How can anyone who
has ever touched the delicate, furry head of a newborn slice one in two with a
machete? Or tear a toddler from his mother, and toss him on a spear? Rape and
disembowel a 5 year old girl, perhaps? Groups, large groups of people did,
and continue to do these things – with a degree of deliberate sadism that
passes comprehension. A significant fraction of the human population, crossing
all racial, ethnic, religious and geographic boundaries seems to be capable of
this, just awaiting the opportunity. There is no sign at all that we are
evolving out of this sickness – all a veneer of civilization does is drive it a
little bit underground. We don't (yet), in this country, have gangs roaming the
streets committing these atrocities – but somebody is buying the "offing"
movies … and video games of the same ilk, and enough to make it profitable.
Gayle G de N
BTW- I think it's incredibly anthropocentric to imagine alien life would even
resemble us enough to make mutual identification possible – and most other
biologists I know agree. That doesn't mean we don't enjoy movies/TV/sci fi
based on other assumptions – just don't consider them too plausible.
Gayle,
With all your positive influences and your predisposition to the positive
influences and psychology of "Trekkies" I am saddened by your pessimism.
All your points are well made on both accounts, your positive projection on the
potential on the one had and your well founded realisations about "humanity" on
the other.
Obviously I can't prove of disprove your conclusions. I will tell you a little
about myself as a point of reference.
I grew up with a father who was a covert cold warrior. I was born in 1956 en
route to Taiwan at the height of the cold war. At that time the intelligence
community believed that nuclear war was immeninent. My father confidentially
told my mother this.
I spent the better part of my youth dealing with the threat of nuclear
annihilation and Communism. It was a very pessimitic upbringing. Out of self
preservation and a certain amount of luck, ie: skill, talent, brains etc. I
realised that in spite of all the pessimism in the world, that people do change
things and that they can make a difference. My father while being a total
pessimist was also fond of quoting the story of Horatio at the Bridge.
Well my father along with many other cold warriors never would have believed
that Sovite Union would collapse the way it did. Communism is not dead but has
been delt a severe blow. Even in China it has had to re-orient its economy to
make "communism" work. I attribute this to the indominable spirit in all
mankind, even with as structured and orderly people as the Chinese.
Sure humanity has a maddness, it always has, back to the time of the Spartans
who would kill their own babies if they appeared weak and sick.
And yet we have evolved beyond that to the point that we appreciate the
wonderful contributions of Stephen Hawking, who, had Spartan philosophy
pervaded would never have had a chance to make the contributions he has. And
those contributions are elementary to the exploration of space travel and what
the human potential may achieve.
I am neither an optimist nor a pessimist but I realise that its the optimists
against all odds that achieve the most. A blind trust in what is possible,
ignoring the conventions or wisdom of the time. Some of whom put thier lives on
the line, only to be proven correct many years later.
I have no children, but for mankind there has to be hope. I realise that man
has an innate disposition to violence and atrocities, but its a bridled
disposition. What kind of reckless courage allows a man or a woman to strap
themselves down to a Saturn 5 to explore the outer limits of our atmosphere?
The same kind I suspect that allows a mother to rush into a burning house to
rescue her children. That is the positive side.
The negative side results from a poor sense of self worth, "I have no value so
nothing else has value." Or the primal instinct to kill to attain, or to kill
for the sake of killing, which must be a powerful drug, as so many wars have
been fought. I recall one writer, who in search of the reason men fight wars
finally concluded that its because they like to. Not very encouraging to be
sure. But there is a powerful strength hidden behind this brutal exterior. A
willingness to take a chance even when all odds are against it.
Men and women have been able to achieve remarkable things at great personal
sacrifice. Where does this sense of self sacrifice come from? On the one hand
we are very self preservation oriented, but on the other willingness to go into
battle for a cause we believe in. So as a result we must conclude that not only
do we have a strong sense of self preservation but also a self destructive
tendency. The Yin and the Yang. <g> The problems arises when the self
destructive tendency overtakes the sense of self preservation. This often
results from a lack of self esteem.
The argument is in your favor. As the world becomes more populated, human value
becomes more diminished, as human value becomes more diminished, people suffer
less self esteem. Less self esteem breeds violence.
But! Have you noticed that in Communist China that just when the ID had all
been but totally smashed, there was a small awakening with a small group of
elites and their realisation caused a revolution which is totally changing the
nature and complexion of China, for the better of the individual as a whole.
Yes its relative, but it is unleashing a powerful force driven by the
individuals ability to create a better life for him/herself. The indominable
human spirit. Whether Asian, African, European et al each are having their own
quiet and not so quiet revolutions. Yes there is pain and suffering along the
route, but look also at what is happening. South Africa has just had a
democratically elected Black for the first time in history, Israel and the
Palenstinians are reaching an agreement after several thousand years of war and
terrorism. The Soviet Union is trying to rebuild, East and West Germany are
restructuring their economies. All these things nobody would have believed
possible 15 years ago.
So now you think I'm an optimist. <g> Not really. I just don't discount
mankind's fight for survival which on the surface appears different than in the
grande scheme of things it is. Mankind will make it to the stars. He has no
choice, he will do so or die trying, its in his soul to do so. As far back as
man's recorded history he has had a fascination with what is out there and as
he explored the great oceans, he will explore the stars. (You can add "He" to
equal "he/she". )
BTW I didn't make an anthropocentric case that alien life would even resemble
our own. I did make a case however that certain things would have to be handled
in the way of challenges for a species to evolve to a point that they could
travel the stars. Without a mastery of fire, a common "element", tools could
not be forged, and without a mastery of nuclear power, space ships could not be
fueled. This could be debated as liquid hydrogen is also in much abundance but
the weight to thrust ratio would be prohibitive for all but travelling in ones
own solar system. And as stars are nuclear powered it is a fairly safe
assumption that any life forms that plans to achieve intergalactic travel with
have to deal with the nuclear issue in some fashion to enable the technology to
travel the stars.
Of course this discounts 4th dimension and mind travel; not having enough
scientific evidence to substantiate, which for the time being has to be put on
hold as a possibility. <g>
-JE
John – I'm thinking. I'd rather wait to respond when I can respond in detail –
but let me drop a couple of incendiary comments in the meantime.
RE: changes in world geopolitical structure in this century – well, sure, this
has been an amazing century to experience, the beginning of flight and
spaceflight not the least of the landmarks, along with the rise and fall of
diverse political systems – but good grief! Don't you imagine an educated
person of the upper class, living in the 18th or 19th centuries thought EXACTLY
the same thing, or in Ancient Greece in the time of the philosophers, or Egypt
in it's glory? It is, however, a very myopic perspective, to imagine one's own
century as the most significant in the history of mankind – let alone the
planet! We are talking about "significant changes" on the
biological/evolutionary time scale – on which "we" are barely a tick-mark. I do
think that the first forays off-planet are significant – (depending on the
eventual outcome – if we don't "make it" as a species, it's really not a
significant development at all). There is something wonky with your temporal
perspective.
I also think you are showing a rather shocking lack of imagination to fixate on
"the discoveries of fire and nuclear fuel" as common challenges that would have
to be mastered by any space-travelling species, whatever their physical form –
that is so provincial.
Start with a radically different physical form, microscopic, for instance, then
tell me why you think fire is necessary to forge any tools this form would be
interested in … or why tools? It's within my imagination and that of many
people that a vehicle could be *grown*, tools could be molecular/genetic, and
fuel photosynthetically-produced. There is a big difference in the AMOUNT of
energy, from whatever source, needed to boost a Saturn V to escape velocity,
and that needed to send an ant (in an appropriately-scaled vehicle) to the moon
– and that's just talking about this planet. What about a planetoid or
asteroid with almost no gravity…sorry, don't think you need a nuclear
explosion to get off of there … a little gentle solar power ought to do it.
Gayle G de N
Gayle, I think you need to re-read my comments as you seem to have missed the
context and overall perspective. There has to be a basis for a discussion and
without a clear understanding of the other person's point of view, that is not
possible. Insults and belittling don't add a thing to the strength of your
argument, which at this point is pretty weak. <g> And if believing in man's
inevitable reach for the stars is "provincial", lets rock the world with
provincial people. 🙂
-JE
Whoa! This is the problem with non face-to-face communications – NO insult or
belittling was intended – though "incendiary" was intended. I have not yet
figured out all the little codes, which are supposed to prevent this kind of
misunderstanding of intent, except <g> means "grin", right?
Please accept my apology.
(However – you should reread my comments, too – "provincial" referred to
thinking that the challenges technological challenges involved in getting off
planet would be the same for all species on all planets – or did I misinterpret
your comments on fire and nuclear fuel?)
I am greatly enjoying this argument, and I'm totally, and sincerely delighted
when I find a grown-up person who is still impassioned and starry-eyed about
the whole thing. That does make me think there may be hope … when idealism
isn't something that necessarily gets outgrown. But someone who is impassioned
about matters scientific (as opposed to religious issues of faith) – should
regard someone else playing devil's advocate as an opportunity to sharpen
skills! I would love for you to convince me – rationally – unless, of course,
this is a matter of faith …<bg>
Please continue. I probably did answer you prematurely – your message deserved
longer consideration – but I was anxious not to let things idle so long that
the discussion got cold. I will reread your message – do you have a little
macro that will do a devil-face so you know which side I'm on next time?!
Gayle G de N
Gayle,
Its all in the approach. <g> Instead of making a statement like
>> there's something wonky with your temporal perspective <<
which kind of a personal attack, it would be better to just state your position
like "I don't agree with your perspective because XYZ…"
Which is actually how your first comments started out which is why I responded
in such great detail.
I don't think I've got all the answers or even the best perspective. And I'm
definitely open to an enlightened or a well reasoned perspective. I'm also
partial to accuracy in rebuttal.
For instance,
>> It is, however, a very myopic perspective, to imagine one's own century as
the most significant in the history of mankind. <<
I don't believe that I implied or stated I had the view. In point of fact I
think every century of mankind has been an important link in the chain of
events as our knowledge base has been built upon the knowledge of generations
that came before us.
I would have preferred instead of you stating that my views on / "fire and
nuclear fuel " as common challenges / as being provincial, you had stated:
I percieve XYZ options as being more viable and not restricted to ABC
because…
Anyway you get the point I think. And now that we understand each other, no
apology necessary. Being on the forum has definitely taught me a lot about
human interaction in this medium. Its very intersting.
>> I would love for you to convince me… <<
Hmmm, I'm not sure I can do that. All I can do is give you my perspective which
so far you've taken to task. <g> And partly it is a matter of faith because
there really is no way to prove mankinds travels to other galaxies until we
actually do it. I base my proposition on space travel and the technology we
have available and on human's desire to explore. I also suspect that as earth's
resources become increasingly diminished that alternative resources will be
sought and the logical place to obtain these resources is space.
It was my intent in my initial long winded message to build a cogent framework
from which one could see the potential, and the probability that space travel
was inevitable.
So lets pick a topic specifically. Do we want to discuss humans' adventure to
the stars, and the necessary factors to make it possible? Or?
Now just because, here's the devil face you requested. ;-/
-JE
Your thoughts… 🙂
-JE
Well, John –
You are pretty gracious (though I still don't agree with you). I am one of
those people who "can't" talk if you make me sit on my hands, and "won't" talk
to someone wearing sunglasses – this is a perilous medium for me. (BTW- how
does one indicate italics used for emphasis?).
I owe you a blow-by-blow, cogent response – so I won't rush into print this
time. The issues I would like to pursue *at some point*, (and expect that I
will make liberal use of };-/ …I added horns), are "minimum
physical/technological requirements for space travel", "common social/political
preconditions for space travel (if any)", and that great philosophical/moral
issue of the difference between "can" and "should" (with it being pretty much a
given that if we can, we undoubtedly will, whether or not we should).
However – since I appear not to be as highly efficient as other people who hang
out here and still get work done <g> , I'm going to have to wait on this
conversation till I deal with a few dozen current work crises.
};-/ Gayle G de N
>> You are pretty gracious (though I still don't agree with you). <<
I'm pretty good about being civilized when people are civilized with me. <g>
But I've also learned in this medium to take things in stride. 🙂
As far as not agreeing with me, that's not a problem. This is pretty subjective
anyway and to tell you the truth I was very suprised to learn that many people
seem to feel the way you do. I just kinda of took it for granted.
>> minimum physical/technological requirements for space travel "
>> common social/political preconditions for space travel (if any) <<
>> great philosophical/moral issue of the difference between "can" and
"should" <<
Your topics help define the context of your interest and disagreement. The
problem is that aside from the first issue which is somewhat theoretical, the
other issues are based on perceptions about humanity, that really can't be
debated with a quatifiable conclusion. I can speculate from my perspective and
reading of humanities efforts, as you can and still not get any closer to a
definitive answer. As a matter of fact one could do a thesis on this subject,
which would be quite fascinating. But well beyond the scope of the forum. Then
it just comes down to who makes the better points rather than a constructive
search for the probability that such an endeavour may occur. I believe that it
is inevitable. Like I said I am suprised you don't. But I can see why you don't
just thinking about it in a different light. I'm not sure this is a debate I
necessarily want to get into a result. If I'm deluded, this is something I
would like to remain deluded about. <g>
BTW you can do italics with _italics_ . 🙂
-JE
"here's the devil face you requested. ;-/ "
See what I said about icons? 🙂 What about my favorite?
>)
You can see the evil eyes in that one.
bwahaaha! (and that was my evil laugh <g>)
ana /krazy images
Yeah, I know… the whole world is reverting back to cave symbols. <g>
Say as we're not on the subject, and totally off in left field, how would you
describe the effect of gamma correction on an image. I used the term "warmer"
and "cooler" for the effect. ie: more gamma correction tends to make the image
looker warmer (warmer tones) and less tends to make it cooler. Can you think of
terminology which might be more appropriate?
Just curious.
Thanks,
-JE
"I Just Love to watch spiders fly."
"Have you seen the new Super-Nova? Talk about Wind!"
"The last time I left my body I almost couldn't get back…I suspect I almost
really didn't want to."
"I love time & space….talk about your cross==dimentional Rip!"
Johnny Hart:
"What was I when I wasn't what I am?…and what will I be when I'm Not?"
"You were what you were when you was, and you will be what you ain't."
Murph'
Huh?
John,
The question regarding UFOs, life in other planets, etc. really is:
With the current "terrestials"…. who needs extra-terrestials? <g>
After reading for a couple times Carl Sagan explanation of "non-terrauqeum"
civilization space expansion, the idea of meeting aliens is mostly improbable.
At least, according to current physics and all that stuff. I know that they
said that the Earth was a plane and that we would never fly. The only people
from space in who I believe are in the Satelitte of Love. And they are not
aliens <g>
Well, what was that british punk song, "my grandma is an E.T?" I think… or it
was Ronald Reagan 😉
ana /krazy images
Hi Mike again.
I think there is for example look at life on Earth. This steaming with life. In
this universe there is more then meets the eye. Think about this there is more
than just 3 demensions so life could be here on a different plane live along
with us. Kinda like From Beyond, by H.P
Lovecraft.
I truly beleive in U.F.O. Everyone going to think I'm nuts and going out on a
limb but I've seen alot of them. Yes right here in Orange Co.
My parents when I was younger seen a few with me. Yes it souds nuts but it's
real. Just keep your eye's on the skys!
I also think this all ties in with psycic energy and the dream state.
Some times I hear a voice in my head telling me to look up and I'll see
what appears to be a star, Then all a sudden it moves. One night while
sitting in the pool during a meteor shower a was watching the sky and
then I saw a light moving north to south and a neteor shot down heading for the
light then the light jumped around it and traveled in a straight line into
space. Another time in the pool with my MOM a little orange light flew down
into the trees over our heads and shot straight up. One more my dad my
girlfriend and I were out in front of my house and all a sudden is the south
westen sky appeared in rainbows a sphere,
which looked like a giant black pearl with a specular light shinning on the
bottom which I beleive to be the sun on the other side of the earth. This
object was big enough to cover the SEVEN SISTERS The paladies. It dissapeared
in rainbows.
Well I know I must of dug a hole letting the hole world Know about this
but what the hell.
Mike White [SDP]
Hi Mike,
I am sorry. I believe you but I doubt about wether they were extraterrestials
or what. I really don't know and I confese my ignorance about the world and the
universe as any of us, including Nobel winners, have to admit. "I only know
that I know nothing" <g>
Well, regarding Lovecraft. Yes, I like him. Like I like many other writers,
painters and artist in general ad their incredible fantasies. Like them, I am
always fantasizing about things but that doens't mean that I will fund a
Lovecraft cult or that I believe that Reed Richards actually have discovered a
negative zone and he and the fantastic fours are honorary citizens of some of
the world there. It is amazing how science, literature and comic books interact
which each other. In fact, I believe that art preludes science when it gets to
fantasy.
Well, enough philosophy for today 🙂
ana /krazy images
Yes that could be true. Do you wonder some time if things that are drempt up or
imaginary worlds discovered in the deepest caverns of the mind could be going
on some where in the deepest reaches of space. As in science fiction many thing
drempt up 40 to a thousand years ago are happening right before our eyes. Not
say mans mind is the center of the universe but just a reciever that can be
tuned in and tuned out. Most people are not tuned in but there is quite a few
tuned in. Some times it even seem that alot of people are being run by some
higer force.
As an example I've talked to many IPAS developers and they seem to be dreaming
up ideas about the same time. I find this kind of neat, it seem we are thinking
with one brain. I can't wait to see what the future bring for the dreamers in
3d. This could open the eyes up to the mass and along with opening there eyes
we spark the imagination.
With the spark of imagination come visualization. That is when things will
start happening.
Thanks for the reply its a heavy topic for some but I can relate.
Mike White [SDP]
If you ever feel like getting in deeper in these topics I'm going to have to
R.J. Nix into this.
If 60 years of comicbooks and a century of scifi literature didn't open the
mass eyes (the question is, to what? 🙂 then nothing will do.
Long live Jack Kirby!
ana /krazy images
I ment now wit computers and 3d art the imagining of visualization can be
projected to more people with high image quality.
Mike White [SDP]
>> With the current "terrestrials"…. who needs extra-terrestrials? <g> <<
No kidding! 🙂 Someone could make a good case that they've already landed and
have taken human form. <g>
I read Cosmos and got the impression that Carl Sagan was a big proponent for
life on other planets. I have remained an open minded skeptic, if that's not a
contradiction in terms. I spent a couple of years while in college researching
UFO's and what struck me as most interesting is that so many people seem to
have seen them but that there was no proof they existed. Some people claim that
its a conspiracy of the government but after following the JFK assination over
all these years, I've concluded the government could't keep a secret if it
wanted to. Yes I'm sure they keep some secrets, but one's that nobody really
cares about. Something as big as UFO's would be really hard. The library of
Congress classifies UFO books as religious, which I find rather interesting.
Another interesting fact is that in the Soviet Union when its citizens have
claimed to have seen UFO's the Soviet government has claimed it was a
capatilist plot to confuse its citizenry.<g> Which to me says they have no
better an idea of what's going on than our government. Hmmm do you think maybe
its a secret weapon of the Chinese? 🙂
-JE
It could be kinda like the movie They Live.
Mike,
I'm not familiar with the movie "They Live". 'People of the Forest' is about a
band of chimpanzees. 3 generations over 20 years. I found it very fascinating.
-JE
Hi John. They Live Is a Stephen King movie. Where the aliens live along with
human life. R,R Piper finds these glasses and he can see through the smoke
screen the aliens set up. Where billboard ,TV, and Radio have subliminals say
thing like breed and and other crazy thing. Great movie you might want to check
it out. I heard Stephen King is making They Live II .
I have to say you guy's make great topics to talk about. One question comes to
mind. Is this all a cause of Some Where in Deep Space and your look at some
thing that looks like earth and the moon.
Thanks for these great topics.
Mike White [SDP]
>>They Live Is a Stephen King movie.
Don't think so. If mem. serves correctly(and it may not w/<2 hours sleep), it
was John Carpenter's movie. Loved the fight scene that _just_ _would_ _not_
_end!!!!!_
John Stetzer
JWS (why is the monitor so fuzzy?)
Yeah your right and that scene was great. I relized that mistake to late to
change .
Thanks fo the reply.
Mike White [SDP]
Mike,
>> They Live is a Stephen King movie. <<
Sounds like its worth checking out, maybe this weekend. <g> The premise is a
good one. Ever see VideoDrome with James Wood and Debbie Harry. Its a classic.
More along the lines of VR where you start watching and it pulls you in.
I didn't quite understand your question about Somewhere in Deep Space, but as
far as the topics are concerned, they pretty much have a life of their own. <g>
Na Noo Na Noo 🙂
-JE
Videodrome is one of my all time most favoritest movies of all time. Oh yeah,
and I thought it was real cool, too.
<g>
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
>> Videodrome is one of my all time most favoritest movies of all time. <<
Mine too! And another on a different wavelength (pun intended) was Brainstorm.
It fell apart at the end for obvious reasons, but definitely cyberspace before
VR.
-JE
Yeah, brainstorm was quite fun.
John Tissavary (LUNA cie)
>>They Live Is a Stephen King movie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Don't think so. If mem. serves correctly(and it may not w/<2 hours sleep), it
was John Carpenter's movie. Loved the fight scene that _just_ _would_ _not_
_end!!!!!_
John Stetzer
JWS (why is the monitor so fuzzy?)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>
As you can tell it's not Stephen King but John Carenter not enough sleep causes
mistakes. Videodron was a great movie. Well nice to see such topics coming out
of this fourm.
Mike White [SDP]
Thanks Mike and John on who directed "They Live", I'll check it out this
weekend.
-JE
Your welcome.
I think that the great cheesy movie "They LIve" was directed by out beloved and
infamous John Carpenter. The movie was a lot of fun, but I think that its
hidden meaning (if any! 🙂 is more with the actual state of the human being
rather than an ET invasion. Recommended to any searching for a cheesy movie
after MST3K 🙂
ana /krazy images
Yes I did make a mistake not Stephen King. That does sound like a good way to
look at it. I never thought of it this way.
Mike White [SDP]
I am sure that Reagan was an extraterrestial. Better said, _it_ <g> is a body
for a spiritual ET that have been living in all US President bodies since
Lincoln. Actually Nixon was his actual phisical form (note the nose). (BTW,
don't get offended by that comment. I am just a little burnt after eating about
2400 pages of modern political law in the US and I am kind of agressive when it
comes to some of the political heads here -dead or alive-).
The Soviet union thing was also common in Spain during Franco's dictatorship.
However, all we got was judeomasonry conspiracies instead of capitalist 🙂
Ahhh, what amazing guys! <g> Atila, Stalin, Hitler, Reagan… interesting for
sure, but not my type 😉
ana /krazy images
>> I am just a little burnt after eating about 2400 pages
>> of modern political law in the US…
Why are you eating political law at all? Are your krazy images political in
nature?
On a related note (in my mind, at least), I was barely watching a TV show
about people starting unusual businesses. If I recall correctly, one item was
about a woman attorney who started a side business with attorney jokes,
possibly on Tshirts and possibly on other items. I cannot recall the show or
the station but would like to find this person, if possible. Any possible
leads would be appreciated.
Well, I guess I can do it just for the "pleasure" of knowing something more
about the country in which I am living. Does that make sense too you? <g> I am
a rare bird and if you look what I read you will conclude that I am an
extremelly weird one 🙂
ana /krazy images
>> I am sure that Reagan was an extraterrestrial. <<
Now, how am I supposed to take you seriously when you make a comment like that.
-JE
What did you say? Serious? I was serious! _It_ is of the same specie that the
ones that are living in that island in the pacific (you know, Elvis, Marilyn,
James Dean), at least, according to the National Enquirer which is my favorite
bed magazine.
Now I have to ask, are you serious about being serious about all this stuff?
Haven't you see the Random Character Stereogram of a BIG 3D ANIMATED "<G>" in
all my messages? gee, I think that your mind is going to overcook if you don't
leace the Peptobismal-Dr.Pepper cocktails, John 🙂
ana /krazy images
>> What did you say? Serious? I was serious! <<
Well are you serious about being serious or just serious about not being
serious. <g> I'm just teasing, I can't handle it when you tell me Ronald Reagan
is an alien. It _so_ disillusioning. <G> So you're hooked on the National
Enquirer hmmm? Real good brain food Ana. And here I thought you were a _real_
intellectual. <g> So how's Florida these days? 🙂
-JE
Like people here say, National Enquirer rules! <g> Now define a real
intellectual. You should start with the bohemian french interpretation and end
with Beavis and Butthead.
Can you appreciate the level of this conversation now? <bg> Regarding Florida,
I think I have got a UV rays overexposure. So besides the sun is continue to
fry people brains, nothing new. How about San Diego?
ana /krazy images
>> Like people here say, National Enquirer rules! <<
That's an English expression – things "rule". When did American's adopt it? I
must be getting old, can't keep up with the slang. <g> More and more its true,
National Enquirer rules, that's because it more fun reading about Big Foot,
than Serbia. Well I guess if you don't like the news, you just make it.
I won't even try to define "real intellectual", it was kind of a joke anyway.
<g>
-JE
>> I won't even try to define "real intellectual",
>> it was kind of a joke anyway. <g>
That is kind of like the joke I heard.
A politician was asked how to tell the difference between a politician and a
statesman.
The politician answered that, for one thing, the statesman is dead.
>> The politician answered that, for one thing, the statesman is dead. <<
That's good, now how about one for a "real intellectual". <g>
-JE
That's an interesting thought. More interesting if you ask to the people in
Europe or a country as small like Spain who have to fed their programs and
newspapers with international news. You can hear the bombs, I tell you. Lot of
bosnian kids have come to Spain since the beginning of the war. Maybe they
should came to a few US cities too.
However, I think that the National Enquirer is not in that line. I think it is
more with the fact that, during the cool war and the crisis with Iran, about
85% of the high school students in Texas thought that _the state of Texas_ has
its limits in the south with Iran and in the north with the Soviet Union!!!
While this is an statistical study, I continue to find it in-cre-di-ble.
However, when I watch an US movie and I see sometimes a father asking his son
what are the geographical limits of his own state or where is Nebraska, and the
kid only answer a smile… well, i think that there should be something wrong
with the educative system in this country. From this problem is where I think
the National Enquirer gets its readers, not from the desire of escape reality
(that is too pretty to be true!). Let's see, a couple of guys buy a Macintosh
II, Pagemaker and a LaserWriter, they made up some news and earn a lot of
money. They do some collage work for the photos and finally buy Photoshop. They
made up reality! And people love it, either if they believe it or not. You are
right that people don't care about reality. At least, they only care about
their own reality, which means work, family, a TV show or whatever. Look at the
TV rates the day Amstrong step out the Eagle! Half of the US watching The Three
whatever-those-fools-are-called.
I think that most of the people in the US and most of the countries in the
world doesn't know and DON'T care where Yugoslavia is located and what is
happening there. Truly, the infamous term "global village" is only a reality
for a few, and even doesn't percieve a 0.5% of what is happening beyond the
horizon. Again like spanish philosopher Ortega-Gasset said, "my reality doesn't
go beyond those mountains".
Finally, there is no "random character stereogram" "<g>" hidden in this
message. It is true, althought I understand that it is my "truth: not yours. Of
course, I will appreciate your opinions regarding this subject, masssterrrr <g>
ana /krazy images
Ana,
It too complicated to get into here. <g> But as to the weather, I think we're
going into our rainy season. Hopefully. 🙂
-JE
<< What did you say? Serious? I was serious! _It_ is of the same specie that
the ones that are living in that island in the pacific (you know, Elvis,
Marilyn, James Dean), at least, according to the National Enquirer which is my
favorite bed magazine.>>
There hanging here in my backyard hanging out by the pool Morris is hanging to.
Mike White [SDP]
Reagan is a monkey ?
Bush is an extraterrestrial!
Clinton have'nt figured out yet but my dad said he's an alien.
Mike White [SDP]