#Is the PAR good enough??
57 messages in this thread
I am debating between getting the PAR and getting the Video Flyer. I should be
able to dig up the cash to get the PAR w/1.7 gb HD and a Panasonic S-VHS
recorder.
But my question is this…..> Should I get the PAR system now and start
marketing my Anims?…. Or should I hold out until next year sometime (when I
get the money) and get the Flyer..?
1. Is the PAR's quality good enough for broadcast use?
2. Since CBM is gone should I "risk" holding out until next year?
I welcome all input……!
Anthony;
Hello there. I just wanted to drop a line to you and say that I have been
using my Toaster/PAR combination for Lightwave animations that are used for
on-air broadcasts, so the answer to your question is , "yes, it is broadcast
quality."
Dave Fisher
If you need S-VHS recorders, I have 3 excellent condition AG-1960's that are
looking for a home.
can you single step 1960's (via some type of single frame controller) to record
animations.. are they good enough? Just curious…
-Tom-
Thomas,
The 1960's will NOT single frame animations. Though they are actually quite
good in editing. Even without the modifications needed to use Time Code, some
companies such as T.A.O. have managed to use sophisticated algorithms to get
+-2 frame accuracy with the control track. My 1970's are extremely accurate
with my Editizer, most often nailing the in an out points. Lots of deck for
the money IMHO.
Later, Jim
Thanks for the info… Guess the sanyo @ $2.5K is the cheapest around than..
(unless the 1970's are cheaper and are frame accurate?)
-Tom-
You Could always get a DPS Personal Animator and Record Direct to ANY VCR
you wish for about $2200 including 500 meg HD
Yes.. but I still need to control the 'any' vcr automatically… Needs some
kind of control interface… Also I assume that the 500 meg disk gets full real
fast. in its own special format. If you want to save your work can you download
this to tape or flopticals(which is what I have).. If i understand PAR
correctly (I could be wrong) First Imaging generates tons of 24_IFF files
(takeing up alot of HD space) then a program converts them to PAR format
(essentionally duplicating the stuff on IFF) You then can play 2-minutes of
anims worth (alot of frames, given) and then you have to load up the next
2-minutes worth and control the vcr to save the next 2-minutes.. This still
doesn't include syncing sound (plain ol 8-bit IFFs)… So I realize that PAR is
cleaner video, but isn't some SF VCR a cleaner interface.. You have all the
necessary controls to step the video automatically and a program that is given
a list of IFF files… oops Sound is worse in this senerio' cause you have to
do it later.. (ie the ol linear track).. the best beet would be to buy them
both, but if you can only get one, which one would you get..
a good vcr OR par?
Seperate subject.. Can I generate anim-5s directly from IMrt?? (using DCTV)
(I am not a touch typer… 'best beet' indeed!)
-Tom-
PAR!
For the price, there isn't a "good" enough VCR.
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
You too? Everybody likes the PAR… Must be the thing to get!
-Tom-
I just started using a PAR system, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents
worth.
The PAR does in fact address some of the problems you cite in your post.
'500 meg disk gets full real fast' – not as fast as if you're saving all
your images to RGB/Framestore files. (Rendering to direct tape is
possible, but you'll find few who would recommend the process.)
However, with the PAR it _is_ possible to render diectly to the virtual
disk that it creates in AmigaDOS. In your post you indicated that you
initially had to render to 24 bit IFF & then to PAR format. This is
incorrect – you can do it either way.
Also the complaint about having to record your 2 minutes of video and then
'load up the next 2 minutes worth' is kind of flimsy. For starters, most
3D segments are rarely over 30 seconds each.
With the 1GB drive, the PAR should give me about 10 minutes of continuous
playback. Single framing to a VCR, you'll be lucky to get 4 frames/minute
when laying the frames to tape. That's _75_ hours of continuous shuttling
on your tape to lay down that same 10 minutes! If you have an expensive
deck, head wear becomes an important factor.
(BTW, since the PAR only takes 10 minutes to lay down that first 1GB of
data, I'd be ready to lay down the next 10 minutes within 4 hours
[assuming the next 1GB of data was already backed up onto DAT using
Ami-Back. {Yes, it backs up like any other AmigaDOS volume.}])
While the PAR does induce JPEG artifacting into the image, I've found it
to be _quite_ low. This noise is offset by the benefit of being able to
render directly from RGB to component formats like S-VHS, Betacam, & M-II.
By avoiding the component output of the Toaster, you gain an increase in
signal quality.
As for audio syncing, you could add an AD516 for $1500 – still be cheaper
than a SF VCR – and have CD quality 4 track audio that is locked by SMPTE
time code.
Of course, if you still need a good VCR for 'real world' applications,
then that's the way you should go. Let's just say that the PAR is looking
to be a pretty good investment for me – but I don't edit video, I just do
3D graphics.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
10
Yet another PAR vote… Couple of things to reply to though… 1) I don't have
a toaster, use imagine, 2.0 at least won't directly render to PAR 2) have
comsumer Control-L sony decks ($4-500) 3) have DCTV 4) have dss-8 5) can play
anims & Iff-8 in close to real time (dvideo) 6) press record on vcr at same
time a key is pressed on 2000 to record segment 7) have to cue up the next
segment and record again.. 8) am looking for something that will let me set it
up so that I can go away
while this is happening (kind of like Video director but with an arex port
You missed the point about PAR's DDR: device. When PAR is running in the
background, it creates a logical drive that you can render directly to.
_No_ intermediate IFF file is required.
The PAR would solve your problem by allowing you compile all of your video
segments into one contiguous video. For audio, you could use the GPI
trigger input, or you could probably control both audio & PAR from an
ARexx script.
Hope this helps,
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Thanks.. I didn't key off that it does the conversion on the fly.. From all the
responses I got the answer to this thread is YES…
-Tom-
oops.. sorry 'bout that… continuing<G>
real world = cheap.. cheap = cheap for me..
cheap for me != PAR ($2200) SUNRISE ($1200) SFC ($300) DAT BACKUP ($1000)
and then have my wonderfull looking PAR anims stored on VHS when DCTV is the
same order of video quality that my deck has anyway.. Important note this is a
hobby for me.. I'm sure this is much cheaper than on other machines but I
wouldn't even think of other pro machines(too much $$, ok I would think but
wouldn't buy).. But thanks for your input..
-Tom-
Tomas,
I know a couple of people who use PAR's and while there are some
limitations they are a much better solution than single frame VCR's.
(IMHO)
As I understand it, if you want to get a 3D animation to tape using a PAR
the procedure is this:
1: In your rendering software you save your images to DDR: This writes
IFF24's to the PAR's hard drive and compresses them.
2: When all of the frames are rendered you select them in the PAR
interface and make them into an anim.
3: Connect your VCR and press record.
4: Push the play button on the PAR interface.
You can put about 3 minutes of animation at a time this way. If you need
more than 3 minutes you design your animation so that you are cutting to a
different camera postion. If you have a VCR that is capable of doing
insert editing (most are) you position the tape at the end of the first
anim and push pause. To record the second anim you push the play button on
the PAR at the same time you push the pause button on the VCR again to
start it.
Consider that to get the same 3 minutes of video to tape using a single
frame VCR would involve the VCR rewinding and recording 5400 times. Single
frame recording tends to be VERY hard on the VCR. The PAR will also do the
job much faster since it doesn't have to preroll the tape on every frame
to get it up to speed.
Jeff H…
wow everyone is on PAR! It does seem to be the thing to get.. SO when you store
the frams to PARS HD it converts them automatically? neat.. what do store your
source data on sysquest? or DAT tapes? I don't want to lose the originals..
Will coping the PARS HD files convert em back to IFF-24? I really need
something that will control my lowly control-l VCR for ANIMATION thats cheap
(not more than $400) cause I have many segments and want to use the amiga's
power to start stop the vcr when an anim runs.. (not single frame, just record
here! play DCTV-anim-5, play iff-8 sound, repeat!) Think SCALA might do it..
Thanks for the input..
-Tom-
"wow everyone is on PAR! It does seem to be the thing to get.."
I wouldn't get it if you need audio, too (especially if you already have
a Toaster). A PAR, TBC & sound board (for both playback & recording
capability) would cost about the same, if not more than, a discounted
Flyer. And the Flyer will integrate into the Toaster Switcher seamlessly.
If you are only looking for something to playback 3D rendering in
realtime, then a DCTV+A3000, or an A1200/4000 in AGA would be far less
expensive; But bear in mind both these setups have substandard resolution
(you usually can't animate HAM8 at 30fps in high res, and DCTV doesn't
have high res period). If you want higher res, you could get a PAR by
itself.
-Chris
The only problem with your premise is that the Flyer is nothing more than
vaporware at this point. (Remember how hot the Screamer _was_ going to be?
The half-screamer is now just beginning to ship in quantity.) Early
versions of the Flyer won't even be showing up to dealers until Mid-June.
The PAR is shipping _NOW_, and has been for over a year. Unfortunately,
_I_ will no longer trust NewTek until the product actually ships. I needed
this kind of product, and I couldn't afford to wait.
I _still_ think the Flyer is a cool product. It's just too bad it wasn't
shipping at the last NAB – then it'd be a _KILLER_ product.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom – ELF Works 3D Construction Co.
Thanks for the info… I understand that a basic flyer (when it's aval) will be
on the order of $4K without *any* HD and it requires at least 1G HD and would
like another 1G HD.. Sound is supposed to be compat. with sunrise(i think) I
have DCTV and 030 a2000 and cheapo decks with Control-l control.. really
looking for hardware/software to batch up of synced iff-8 samp sound and anims
to turn on and off the VCRs.. I think SCALA will do me, or perhaps Moviemaker..
I appreciate the input…
-Tom-
Thomas,
I don't have my own PAR yet so I'm not an expert on them, but I do know a
bit about them from friends who have them. When you save IFF24's to the
PAR they are converted automaticly. You can convert them back to IFF24's
at a later time to do image processing on them as well. I think the new
version of AdPro will even save images to DDR: (the PAR's device name)
As for backing up your image files I'd say go with some sort of a tape
drive rather than syquest. The tapes will be a lot cheaper than cartridges
and the speed loss will be no big deal if it's just used for backup.
As for a cheap way to put your DCTV anims to tape, a solution is in the
works. A friend of mine is working on something that should be ready for
the market in a few weeks. It's made for dumping short anim segments to
tape on any VCR. Price SHOULD be under $100. Beyond that I can't say
anything else about it.
Jeff H…
Please let me know when its ready… sounds like like it's an infra-red
controller.. probably good nuff for whatt I'm doing…
-Tom-
Well, I guess you have already recieved the answer – no they are not frame
accurate, but with something like Amilink (which is what I use) they do a very
good job. No animation accuracy though – get a PAR to do that sort of stuff,
the Sanyo in my opinoin is not a move in the right direction, I don't care what
kind of deal you get on it.
I love my PAR!
Adib
Hey thanks…. interesting 'bout the Sanyo (alot of good press on it, this is
the first bad thing I've heard) Everyone seems to like PAR though!
-Tom-
I am not saying anything bad about the Sanyo. What I am saying is that it is
wiser, in my opinion, to invest in a digital format which provides unlimited
first generation copies, rather than SVHS.
I think the repair bill for worn heads and motors will further justify my
position.
Hey that was quick! I think you are right! I really think I need both but can
only get one.. Thus my delimma
-Tom-
Our first project with the PAR was a TV promo for our local NHL hockey team,
the Edmonton Oilers. As for quality, we were paid a great compliment by the
senior producer for Molstar Communications (the company which does all Canadian
hockey broadcasts). He said he'd not seen this level of quality in a hockey
promo for any TV station that broadcasts NHL games. I'd like to think the PAR
was directly responsible for much of the quality. The JPEG compression
routines the PAR uses can produce some artifacting, but with judicious use of
colors, field rendering, and a little motion blur, the effects are pretty much
transparent.
I'll never forget hitting the PLAY button the first time and seeing the
animation on my composite monitor; full-speed-full-color. I still haven't
found those socks!
If you find that the Flyer's other capabilities are useful, you may decide to
wait for it. OTOH, you can start making money right away with a PAR and buy
the Flyer later. Either way, you can win.
Good luck!
Trent/ReAnimators
"The JPEG compression routines the PAR uses can produce some artifacting,
but with judicious use of colors, field rendering, and a little motion
blur, the effects are pretty much transparent."
Not to mention that with a fast enough hard drive and compression set to
a minimum level, you can get near perfect pictures. No?
-Chris
>"The JPEG compression routines the PAR uses can produce some artifacting,
>but with judicious use of colors, field rendering, and a little motion
>blur, the effects are pretty much transparent."
> Not to mention that with a fast enough hard drive and compression set to
>a minimum level, you can get near perfect pictures. No?
Agreed…except just focus on getting a Micropolis 1.0 or 1.6gb drive
first. You'll find that even the nastiest of animations can be
compressed with block settings of 220 and higher, yielding Q-factors of
around 23 (re: perfection) every time!
I have routinely dumped PAR animations to D2 through Nickelodeon/Universal
Studios Florida's patchbay and not only did the engineers give a thumbs up
to the wave form readings (the user adjustable sync settings and external
genlock ability worked flawlessly) they applauded …. and I made money.
Anyone who has trouble with the PAR's jpeg quality is using an old seagate
drive or hasn't bothered to bump that block limit up!
Grant Boucher – Amblin Imaging
"It's hard to believe grown-ups do this for a living."
"Agreed…except just focus on getting a Micropolis 1.0 or 1.6gb drive…"
Speaking of which, I've been wondering if it's possible to use Gigamem
with the Toaster switcher to playback Lightwave anims that are larger than
my 18MB RAM. I have looked at the bytes/sec that would be needed, and
3MB/sec would seem to do it nicely in lores.
Is it worth trying, anyone?
-Chris
You said it, Chris!
TJ
Anthony,
I use the PAR/Toaster for logo anims and the quality is more than up to the
task. There is NO visible difference in the anims I did using the PAR and those
I renderred single frame to MII.
If you are at all concerned about the Amiga, you can rest easy, since PAR also
works in a PC. If you feel that there are clients you could make money with
right away, waiting for the Flyer would mean missed oppourtunities. IMHO, you
should can the idea of the SVHS deck and either borrow or rent betacam or MII
to dub from the PAR for Bcast clients. The difference between the output
quality of SVHS and a Bcast format is worth the hassle and expense if you are
promoting your services to the advertising community.
Frank
Yes, DPS also makes an IBM version of the PAR. But it's not the same card as
the Amiga device. Therefore, buying the Zorro version is just that… an Amiga
only device. You'd have to purchase the IBM card (about twice the price) if
you wanted to use the PAR in a clone.
>> (about twice the price)
Then how much is the Amiga version? My PC one was $1995 (sans drive). Thought
the prices were the same.
John Stetzer
JWS
PMFJI,
My PAR board (Amiga Version) was $1599. Without drive.
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
OK. Thanks for the info.
John Stetzer
JWS
MArk,
Thanks for theat valuable info. I wrongly assumed that the PAR was just like
the other DPS cards. How much MORE is the PC version?
Frank
Apparently not much. I was under the impression that it was about 3K but John
Stetzer says he paid 2K.
Even single framing degrades the tape and resultant signal
quality…pressing record ONCE with a PAR playing live costs you nearly
nothing in rental fees and the first generation output to tape is
phenomenal.
Knowing all this, I still can't wait for a Flyer….
Grant Boucher – Amblin Imaging
"It's hard to believe grown-ups do this for a living."
Broadcast use is a Relative term. The local Cable Access Channel regularly
broadcasts poorly shot VHS footage for example. The folks I did the 55
second opening Anim for their Cable show were thrilled to get SVHS footage
from me tho they would have prefferred 3/4" SP
Don't you love working with "professionals"? <G>
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
Oh yeah!!!! I'd put Color Bars at the beggining of the tape for about 30
seconds. When they started the tape to preview it and saw them they
PROMPTLY fast forwarded past them, never twiddled a knob or looked at a
scope before recording to their Master.
But what the hey, as long as it's enjoyed thats the main thing. It seems
they got Screwed recently. They were SUPPOSED to get a 1 hour time slot,
the cable access folks reneged on em' so their showing old episodes that
were only 30 minutes.
BTW, are you the guy who was talking about doing 30-second sci-fi opener?
The one who needed a movie theatre marque? Do you use LW? I know you use
Imagine. Do you know if one is any faster than the other? Just curious.
>>When they started the tape to preview it…fast fowarded past them<<
Been there. As soon as I finish my MFA, I can be there full-time <g>. Oh
Joy!
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
Actually it was a 55 second Opener and yes it was me. Yes I was also the
one looking for the Theatre Marquee, found a Nice one on a Local 3D Studio
BBS here in NY and converted it using Interchange Plus. I usually use
Imagine tho I have on occassion used Lightwave. Which is Faster?
I think Lightwave Renders faster but I find Imagine Easier to use for
repeating Cycles Like a Walk or Run etc. As an Aside I can't make hide nor
hair out of Either Programs Bones features.
Yeah, bones are a b*tch. Very hard to control.
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
Not as Hard as I'd first thought. About 2 hours after I posted the msg
about all my trouble with Bones, something Clicked and Voila' I got the
bones working fine as Wine. Did a Silly Little quarter Screen Anim in
Imagine 3.0 of my GUMBY model using Bones. I think the trick is in the
defining of the Faces and it's best to fracture the Faces to allow it to
be a bit smoother
Maybe I should check out Imagine. I've never even seen it before, only the
box on the dealer's shelf.
My bone-experience in LW has been less than satisfying. Perseverence is
necessary, or a good job that'll force me to learn more about them. Right
now, I use them for subtle touches to surfaces and objects. No characters
yet. <frown> I DO know that you don't touch 'em without subdividing the
area into many many polygons. Suddenly, 18 megs becomes small potatoes.
Lightwave has been so very good to me, though. Do I dare challenge it? <g>
Of course, huh?
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
Why not try Imagine 3.0, I think it is relatively cheap. Impulse may even
have a Deal for users of Lightwave. BTW you might want Imagine just for
it's Modeler which I like ALOT more than Lightwaves tho I do have ALOt
more experience with Imagine than LW. I only use LW when I can beg time on
a friends Toaster System.
Thanks for the advice.
BTW, have you checked out a program called FreeForm 3D. The demo is around
here somewhere. Anyway, I dl'd it and it seems interesting. I wish I new
for sure if it could load different formats. The demo won't import much
except the demo models it came with.
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
Well, It's simple.
If you want to make money this year do it. If you don't want too, then
wait. If you're really get into it, you can wait till the next cool
machine after the Flyer due out in 1998.
By 2008 the digital video cams will be cheap enough for you to really kick
butt.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
Panasonic will have what they claim will be an AFFORDABLE Digital Camera
in 1995, Also AVID is teaming with another maker who's name I can't recall
to release a Digital Disk Videocamera in 95. The Disks will hold 20
minutes each.
I have a PAR, Toaster and TBC IV in my machine. The PAR is the most awesome
piece of personal computer hardware I've seen in years.
I wouldn't get the Sdeck if I were you. The PAR can output component video to
MII – a better format than S. If you can't afford the MII deck, take your
computer to a local video rental studio and purchase time to dump the finished
anim to tape – You'd have a better quality anim for broadcast and it won't cost
much.
>>The PAR is the most awesome piece of personal computer hardware I've
seen in years.<<
dito!
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451
Where was this string before I bought my sanyo? 🙁
Actually I like the deck and use it daily. Even if I move past it as other
options become affordable I will be able to use it in other ways (it does have
a nice complement of features that are costly add in cards on other decks).
Also for those of us that want to edit as well as do 3d it is hard to swallow
the price for a MII or other bcast format edit suite (rental is not cheap
either). I guess you can't have it all.
What is the chance that a future hd system other than the Flyer will use
NewTek's new wonder-compression. That would eliminate the artifacting
problems wouldn't it?
Wes
Data Translation's Media 100 system also uses a variable compression scheme.
HOWEVER,
1) it is Mac based.
2) a typical system which still, in my opinion, is not as good as a
Toaster/Flyer setup costs $20,000 without the computer
3) the cheapest setup is $12,000 without the computer.
4) the demo video they have shows the capabilities of the system
and it is impressive. The image quality is excellent. I could tell
no artifacting at all. They claimed it was BetaSP quality. I can
only imagine what the Flyers D2 will be like!
There is also another company (Cineware?) that has a PC based system. The
image quality looks like 2nd generation SVHS and it costs almost as much as a
Flyer.
In light of such pricing, I think we all owe a lot of gratitude to Newtek for
making this technology profusely affordable for all video enthusiasts.
FYI to all PAR users … software is now at 2.07.
Joe Maulucci >>> Accadia Electronic Arts
Buffalo, New York
What's the word on changes? Anything notable?
Stephen Bailey
Sawyer & Bailey Film and Video CIS # 72773,2451