#ASOFT policy
48 messages in this thread
I'm inquiring where I can obtain either a copy of or a text file of
Autodesk's official ASOFT policies. I recently fell astray of
Autodesk thread police when I responded to an inquiry for help. My
response to offer assistance and the inquiry for help were somewhat
unceremoniously removed from the forum. A firm the size of Autodesk
must have a policy on issues like this. Not to have a policy could
land them in hot water. ASOFT has been promoted through published
and electronic means as an official part of Autodesk's support
policies. To arbitrarily and capriciously remove someone's ability
to ask and receive the free flow of ideas advertised to them before
purchase could be considered a breech of their purchase agreement and
all that that entails.
I would also like a detailed explanation as to why my message was
removed.
Good point about wanting to see a specific policy re negative threads,
Roger. I hope that Bob, Brian, Jonas, Nik and the boys can pull
something together for us next week.
Let me preface this by saying I'm not the thread police. I did not
molest your message. I do not make policy in this forum, nor are my
comments an articulation of it. My comments are my own, so you are
free to disagree with anything I say here.
As a general rule, the forum management does not remove messages from
the forum. They are moved to a private section, where the recipient
can still read them, but other forum members cannot. When they do
so, they most often tell the affected party the reason for the move.
(I have not seen any messages of yours that were offensive enough to
move.)
There is another way a message can get removed from the board. Anyone
can erase a message from or to them. The person with whom you were
corresponding could have done this.
I do not have the definitive list of forum guidelines for ASOFT.
(There *are* guidelines concerning advertising in the file
ADGUID.TXT.) If you check your CompuServe service agreement, you'll
find a set of basic guidelines. You'll also find a clause which lets
the service provider (Autodesk) modify these guidelines. In the
absence of explicit modification, you can safely assume the
CompuServe guidelines apply. (There are two very common guidelines
which are enforced here — no profanity, and no personal attacks. If
a person is even moderately intelligent, they can get their point
across without resorting to these.)
Hope you find out what happened.
Evan, where might I find a copy of…ADGUID.TXT ?
>> (There *are* guidelines concerning advertising in the file ADGUID.TXT.)
My searches turned up nothing, which of course doesn't mean it isn't there.
Thanks. Michael B.
ADGUID.TXT is in the libraries. You can download it by its name.
Evan Yares
I have searched Hi and low for it and can not find it. Could you tell me which
library it is in? TIA
Roger,
<< My response to offer assistance and the inquiry for help were somewhat
unceremoniously removed from the forum.. >>
Your post in the GLOW thread, message #107003, Friday June 10th, was moved to
section 0 along with everyone else involved with the thread by Joe. The
individual you addressed it to can still can read it.
Roger,
You replied to a message 14 hours after it had been moved from section 1 to
section 0. You evidentally either downloaded the messages early and didn't get
around to reading them for awhile and then posted your message as a REP(ly)
without a section number and it followed the thread, OR you read the message in
a section in which you have no access.
Joe,
Thank you for your and everyone else's response. I could start with why was
such a serious message regarding product support and censorship moved to the
idle chitchat section. Censorship is far too serious of an issue to be called
idle chitchat.
Evan said none of my messages had been offensive enough to move, but yet it was
moved to what I believe is section 0, where only certain people have access.
(And no, I have not figured out any way to get access to that.) I downloaded
the original message, Gary's response, and 2 or 3 additional replies, which had
nothing to do with offering assistance. I first of all tried to mitigate the
original writer's frustration, tell him he may possibly have a point, and offer
my assistance. All you guys have been around here long enough to know that
sometimes by the time the users get to Compuserve, their frustration level has
reached the point of an enraged postal worker.<g> And if you don't give them
the ability to blow at least a little bit of steam, you could end up with some
of the same ramifications. (Let's hope not.)
Now you say the message was not deleted, but moved. So thus, there's no
censorship. If you take it out of the newspaper, and put it in a secret file,
it's still censorship. Now, perhaps, those messages that were not offering
assistance, only personal criticisms, didn't belong in the thread, but why did
the entire thread disappear, including my message, which had a different header
completely? And I can tell you from personal experience I've personally been
flamed much worse than anything I read in that thread. Why the sudden interest?
Thanks.
Roger D.
Roger:
I think I know what happened. Between the time you read Zampella's message,
and the time you responded, his message was moved to Section 0 (S0).
If you used an automatic message reader to reply, your reply followed his
original message — right into S0.
In short, nobody moved your message. It just followed along.
Vincent Zampella could still read your message, so its effect was not dilluted.
It got to the person it was addressed to. (I went back to read your reply, and
thought it was quite well thought out. If I had spent that much time writing a
message, and thought it had been erased, I'd be upset too.)
Evan
If you are referring to your messages in this thread, it's because we don't
really have any other section to put it (other than SYSOP). So where do you
think it should be ??? ….Pick a Message Section.
Your response to the thread was not specifically moved into section 0. The
thread was moved before 6:00 AM CDT which is 7:00 AM on the East Coast and 4:00
AM on the left coast. Your message wasn't posted until after 8:00 PM CDT, or 14
hours AFTER the message thread was moved.
The message thread was moved because of the responses it generated. I thought
that most of the members were reasonable adults on this forum, but the
responses to that "cry for help" (other than Gary's considered and tactful
reply) were the most childish things I've seen on this forum. Actually, in the
entire thread, there were only two messages that actually considered that the
original poster may be having some real trouble and just might be extremely
frustrated. Those two messages were the first one (Gary's) and the last one
(your's).
It would have been simpler and easier to just DELETE the dumb replies that the
thread generated. BUT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN CENSORSHIP !!!! Moving messages into
section 0 or any other closed section doesn't prevent the sender, receiver or
other member with access to that section from reading those messages and
replying to them. You can reset your HMN (or message aging) and still see your
message in section 0 (if it hasn't scrolled by now). You can even write a reply
to that message and extend the thread. You just can't see the rest of the
thread without access to the section. And that's a lot different than just
DELETING the messages.
So if you consider limiting your access to the thread censorship then I guess
that it is. It's interesting that you compared the forum to a newspaper. Very
few see the relationship. CIS like a newspaper is a commercial service. It
ain't a free soap box for anyone to spout whatever they seem to think at the
time. Newspapers have huge staffs to determine what will be printed and what
won't be printed. Here we have a coupla sysops. We determine what gets
"printed" by deciding which section the message will appear, or which section
in which to move it if need be. So I guess you can say that we do censor what
is on the forum just like an editor censors what will be in the paper. Moving
messages is our way of making this decision. But it's one of only a few tools
we have to maintain the forum and message board. The ASOFT forum has not been
built on Flame Wars like some other forums on CIS. And it will not be (though
an occasional flame ain't bad for business…..<g>.)
That particular message and thread had accomplished exactly it's purpose. The
poster of the original message did get the answer he needed from Gary, and
leaving the entire thread in section 1 only asked for more responses like the
majority of the one's it did get. I deemed it prudent to remove the entire
thing, rather than having to check the forum every 15 minutes to catch any more
childish responses. Your message just followed along with the rest of the
thread. If it makes you feel any better, the original poster has collected the
entire thread (or at least those messages addressed to him, including the rash
ones). Wonder just how he feels right now ??? Bet he has a VERY favorable
impression of this forum. Maybe I should have really CENSORED that thread and
removed those "extra" messages ???
As far as I know, I'm now the only sysop on this forum that is maintaining the
message base. I try to get everything, but sometimes I goof. I appologize for
any flames you may have received, but on the other hand, there ain't any way to
prevent it without CENSORING the messages and DELETING them from the board. The
only thing I could have done with the flames at you is the same thing I did
with the thread in question, move it into a separate and closed section. It
wouldn't have prevented the flame, nor would it have prevented you from
receiving it. All it would have done it remove it from public view.
So the interest isn't sudden. It's been ongoing ever since I built this forum
with JP some four years ago. I move somewhere between 30 and 50 messages a day
on this forum. (I'll be moving 22 of them with the posting of this message to
you.) Most of them are simply posted in the wrong section. But occasionally
there is the little incident like we just went through. Guess that's to keep me
on my toes………..<g>.
So does this mean you'll automatically move any scuba-related messages to the
Take 5 section? 🙂
Mea culpa.
Don't fret, I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular re: scuba messages. I
don't mind, really, I read everything regardless. Because I'm only
peripherally interested in the scuba messages, (in that it sounds like fun to
me) I have noticed that the thread police are looking the other way when those
threads arise in the business sections.
I have an interest in collecting fossils, and I do hear tales of scuba divers
collecting great fossils in Florida. If all goes well, I'll be able to scour a
few river banks down there after Siggraph. And I know of at least two 3DS
users who are interested in using the program to model extinct creatures. I
think it would be nifty to animate a few long-dead beasts – not a T. Rex, more
like ancient shrimp – and send them to the researchers who spend their lives
investigating the minutiae…
Fossils! I just went again last week here in Tenn. I found a number of
grasses and plant fossils, as well as three good chunks of petrified wood. One
had bark that had turned to coal – we ground and polished one end to look for
growth rings but couldn't see any.
You can grub around with scuba in the rivers and find both fossils and
arrowheads. I've met people with buckets full. There are jillions of shells
in soft limestone in the springs, but I've never found any bones or anything
spectacular. Other cave divers have found whale and other fossils WAY back in
some of the underwater spring caves, but I haven't seen any yet. Hey Don
Landis, found any neat fossils?
JKJ
Heeheeheehee…
Nah!!! Think I'll shuffle them off to Section 1 [IPAS] where Gary is sure to
see them……<g>.
Joe, I immediately let it go after responding to your message to me, and I
didn't bring it up here – but why didn't you reply to my response with a
message such as this ? I do not want to start trouble, but I do not appreciate
your comments as below – partially because they're not true.
<< I thought that most of the members were reasonable adults on this forum, but
the responses to that "cry for help" (other than Gary's considered and tactful
reply) were the most childish things I've seen on this forum. >>
First of all, there was no cry for help there…no effort whatsover was put
into *_really_* trying to get help. The guy just wanted to trash the product
and Gary by association – period. If that was a "cry for help", then please
characterize my response as an "impassioned plea for showing some respect if
you really want help", rather than a "childish" reply. For you to state that my
& others' responses were the most childish thing you've ever seen on this forum
apparently means:
A) You have just forgotten or missed many messages here, and if this whole
thing was really worth the effort (it isn't), I would be happy to send you
numerous other examples. (even SINCE that incident)
B) You consider one's taking offense and responding to a *_intentionally
offensive_* message as "childish"….I don't. I consider it having the guts and
principles to do it, without regard for the politics or
consequences…sometimes harsh action is neccessary.
I did consider the guy was having problems and I pointed out that he certainly
went about getting help in the wrong manner. The "tone" of my message only
matched the insulting tone that he demonstrated with his message, and it was
done intentionally to drive home the point.
Many messages (I'm sure from me as well) are posted here which show a lack of
understanding and a cry for help – I have never flamed at these people, in fact
I've noticed that some of the fundemental questions frequently get overlooked
here, and I do especially try to respond to those. The message we're talking
about was an exception though. It was composed with the specific purpose to
enrage, and it did. I don't know how the sender got answers from Gary, because
there were no specific questions asked. I told the guy that the routines do
work well – that's all I could tell the guy.
<< And it will not be (though an occasional flame ain't bad for business
…..<g>.) >>
What does this mean, and what is your definition of "justified" flaming which
"ain't bad" ? If my response to that guy prevents just one other person from
outright insulting another without provocation, perhaps by simply stirring up
all of this "awareness" – then I feel very justified in having accomplished
that, regardless of the consequences.
<< Wonder just how he feels right now ??? Bet he has a VERY favorable
impression of this forum.
>>
How do you think Gary felt ? How do you think I feel ? Why are you so concerned
about someone who showed absolutely NO RESPECT for the product, developer, and
forum in the first place? I really don't get it !
I absolutely agree with you in moving the OFFENSIVE messages, as once they're
read by the receiving party, they serve no other useful purpose. I responded to
your warning with a non-offensive message, and received no reply from you.
Someone else had to explain that I could retrieve any messages waiting for me
in that thread. And there were messages that were important to me waiting
there, messages of support – not continued flaming.
Listen, I FULLY UNDERSTAND that I am a "vistor in your home", and you have
every right to ask me to leave your home if you so desire – but in the
meantime, don't call my actions "childish" without expecting to receive a
response from me while I am still able to reach you. This was a very special
case with that guy and his message – maybe others here don't all feel putting
him in his place was behavior only to expected from a child. I can't speak for
everybody else, only for me and I did.
BILL
Bill:
You just need to learn how to flame without actually attacking someone.
Let me explain — there are always several ways of saying things. For example:
"You're a real idiot, why don't you read the manual?"
or
"It is covered in the manual. That's the paper thing that came
in the package. Most of the words printed in it are pretty
short, so it's not hard to read. Then again, most of us
here *have* graduated from elementary school, so we're pretty
good at reading."
In most cases, the first example would get you in trouble, as it would be
perceived as a personal attack by the forum management. The second message is
much more insulting, but is not a direct attack. Of course, it still might
upset the forum management, but it wouldn't technically violate the guidelines
here. <G>
Evan
Evan, I really appreciate your comments, but here's the way it is with me – I
don't want to flame anybody at all (and never have before), but I especially
don't want to learn a trick way of doing it <g>. That's just not me. If with
either method, the recipient "gets the message" – then I really don't see the
difference, my method being more direct & honest at least. The second (best)
method you suggested HONESTLY would personally P*** me off more! I'm serious. I
would perceive that method as not only being called an idiot for the personal &
product attack message in so many words, but being "talked down" to as well. I
really think this was a unique situation, and I hate the fact that I've
offended others here because that was not my intention…..I only meant to
offend *that* person as I felt he deserved it. I did not want or expect to
start a thread and even still be discussing it now. My only previous awareness
of any enforced rules here was in observing what has been said here before
without causing big problems, and I didn't think I crossed a line into
uncharted territory. Maybe my direct manner made it appear that I did, and
honestly, I probably wanted to punctuate my reply as I was feeling at that
time. I used a personal attack because that's exactly how I took his message –
on not just Gary & his group, but on every member of this forum who gives their
time trying to maintain this wonderful resource. Again, I hate it that the
incident is still being discussed and I hate it that I seemed to cause this. I
do appreciate the advice.
BILL
Well, this thing has taken on a life of its own, hasn't it?
The point I was trying to make, and which I didn't do a good job of, was that
it is possible to write messages which are extremely, er, effective — without
ever resorting to a personal attack. The management of this forum felt I went
overboard in my example.
Evan <All opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views
of the forum management.>
I'm not commenting on this anymore (smile).
BILL
Oh!!Oh!!!Oh!!!!
You're giving away all the trade secrets. Don't do that. Now we're gonna hafta'
use something like…."TACT"…….Oh!!! The Horror of it….<g>.
Joe / ALL,
Let me try to clear the air here. FYI, I have not seen any messages from you to
me wrt the negative thread (other than the initial warning) until today, and
that was your most recent message which was quickly moved to section #0. I had
to use a comm. program to access it and I got cut off before seeing all of it I
believe. I have tried every way I know of to access section #0 and can't. As I
said last night, I don't blame you for moving the first few messages or just
doing your job in general – I have not seen any past my original reply to that
guy, so I don't know where it went from there. I read his message, I
characterized it as I have described before, it hit me hard at the time, I did
what I did 'cause I am what I am (popeye?). Right, wrong or debateable – I did
it and I can't undo it. Neither can I change the way I am, nor do I want to
really.
However, I did not wish for it to turn into all of this. It's not that
important, and *I'm* certainly not important wrt all the negative distraction I
seemed to have helped blossom here unintentionally. Like you, I do not feel an
apology is neccessary here – but if it will end this once and for all – I don't
*mind* apologizing to the members of this forum for my part in the
distraction….and I thank the members who sent messages of support here or by
E-Mail. For the record, I don't believe I've ever had anything negative to say
about you or the forum management, and throughout this thing I haven't made it
personal with you and expect the same in return – we just disagree on some
things. Your opinion on the "new shiny thing" is really coming from way out in
left field though. Regardless, I hope this is the last of it. If no one puts in
it my face again, I'm sure not going to refer to it again. In closing, all I
can say is that in order to avoid this in the future, I think you guys should
be more consistent wrt ACTUAL as opposed to theorectical policy here and
enforce it across the board….I have no desire to be defender of the forum in
the first place. If I can't manage to function within the rules here now that
I've been made aware (sort of), or if the rules aren't applied equally – I'll
remove myself, you won't have to deal with it. I am not trying to give you a
hard time here, and I trust that you are aware of that ('cause now you know
what it's like when I AM trying to give someone a hard time, right ? <g>)
BILL
Ah!!! Bill…<sigh>
You just won't let it go will you. You did respond to me….twice (with the
same message). Once in section 0 and once here in section 12. Funny thing is,
the message you were responding to had to have been read in section 0 (because
that is where it was posted), the same section from which you later couldn't
retrieve messages addressed to you. Remember the messages that Jonas forwarded
to you??? The same two messages you asked me to remove.
So you did get the reply you are looking for now. I thought it more tactful to
reply to your message in a closed section rather than on the open board, but I
guess it's not to be. So let's get a few things straight.
First off…this ain't my living room. It ain't Gary's, or Jonas'. It's
Autodesk's. I just clean up around here in return for the UID. There are
supposed to be several of us around here to do the cleaning up, but the
(UN)antagonistic attitude towards sysops in general on this forum has pretty
much disgusted the others, so it's left to me to handle by default.
Secondly, even if you are correct in assuming that the message in question was
not written in frustration, it is NOT your place to correct it. You can't do
anything about it but spout off and raise the temperature level of the forum. I
know you got that shiny new free flag (there really ain't anything happening on
this forum that I don't know about), but all that does is let you write more
and longer messages for less money. Fact is that I was asked to apologize to
you because you just got that new flag. I refused to do so, and I still do
BECAUSE YOU WERE WRONG in what you did. It ain't your job.
If the guy was really frustrated for any reason, your messages surely didn't
help the situation. And if (as you assume) he posted just to burn someone, he
surely did…..YOU. In that case, you did exactly what he would have been
looking for………do you honestly believe that to be really smart ???? That's
why I consider most of the replies generated in that thread to be childish.
Either those messages added to someone's frustration or they played right into
someone's hand and he got all of you. In either way they didn't solve anything,
and they just might have turned a valuable asset off. Anyone that can afford
$1500 worth of IPAS routines just might know what they are doing.
In the years that I've been following the parade with my broom and dustpan on
these forums, I've found that the best way to handle messages such as the one
under discussion is to either answer them very matter of factly, or to ignore
them completely. Either way you leave the antagonist with nothing to fight. If
he's really looking for help, he gets it and normally apologizes for the tone
of his initial message. And if he's spoiling for a fight, there just ain't
nothing there for him to do battle. And if everyone were to follow the same
example, there would be lots less excitement here.
Gawd…the longer I'm at this keyboard, the mellower I get. Must be this coffee
I'm drinking…wonder if Virginia slipped me some decaf.
But Bill, I too got a little ticked when I saw that thread. I however, was
looking at it from a general forum aspect, and in the light of what has
transpired on this forum over the last several weeks. In these last coupla
weeks there have been three incidences where I've had to step between the
members of this forum, Autodesk and some TM that was just trying to do his job.
Then I find a thread that under a given set of circumstances, if allowed to
continue, could eventually bring the forum down. And I have to assume those
circumstances until it's proven otherwise. That is also part of being a sysop.
Fastest, best and most prudent solution…..move it. This ain't the easiest
solution on THIS forum. I then fired off a bunch of curt messages to the
participants of the thread that had stepped out of bounds (including the sender
of that message) to stem (or at least curtail) the inevitable flack that I knew
was going to arise.
Well….you guys sure didn't disappoint me did you. Funny thing…I called Bob
Henderson about the thread and the follow up messages cause he doesn't have a
machine at home, and I didn't want him to be blind sided by what was turning
out to be a big bruhaha on the forum. And he was actually surprised by the
reason for my call. He really thought that I was calling to tell him that I had
just "elfed" the lot of you. But….<sigh>……I didn't.
You see Bill. I know what it feels like to get your first flag. Makes you feel
like you're on the top of the world. Someone thinks you're good enough to be
given special priviledges. And this is now YOUR forum, and you're gonna take
care of it. But you were given that flag to SUPPORT the MEMBERS of the ASOFT
forum. Just like I was given a WIZARD flag to support the forum itself and it's
workings. I sure can't support 3D Studio. The only animation I've ever done was
on acetate cels that were eventually shot with a 16mm Bolex (that I still
have….it's gotta be an antique by now). But I do know how this forum runs and
how to run it, after all I built it (along with the libraries on
ACAD….sheesh….I ran up a $6000 bill on this comped account in three weeks
while we were doing that).<Gawd…I'm rambling>.
So Bill. Pick up that flag, dust it off and shine it up. You're gonna need it
to help out all these new users of the Autodesk Mulit-Media products.
And let me and my goon squad (affectionately known as TM's) <now I'm gonna hear
about this one too> take care of the head bashing and butt kicking, as well as
the message base massaging. We've been given the flags to do that (and I sure
could use the help around here).
Bill, please understand that folks like the poster of that original message are
just a fact of life, and I almost enjoy the chance to be diplomatic and tactful
with them. It's kind of a challenge for me. The bottom line is that although
you know how much I appreciate your support, I can usually fight my own battles
(and do a pretty decent job, too). It's part of the fun of the electronic
forum global community experience!
– G
Oh, I know you can <g>. As I mentioned last night though, I took it as a
personal attack on "everyone giving their time to maintain this wonderful
resource". I wish I would have missed that original message now.
BILL
No big deal! It's the thought that counts, eh?
– G
Joe,
I can see that you've got your hands full. When I used the word censorship, I
guess I meant the possible limiting of what one would hope would be
constructive criticism of product, policies, or implementation. How you can
deal with the personal attacks, I have no idea. I guess I would wish they
could be dealt with on a case by case basis. I hope if I get to the point
where I feel I have the right to indiscriminately go after people personally,
you would ask me not to participate. And I would hope that I would have the
grace to take that advice. Although I can think of one example where I think I
could have been guilty.<g>
<<You can even write a reply to that message and extend the thread.>>
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I downloaded all of the aforementioned
messages the night before, and tried to upload my response the next day. What I
got was a message saying that I could not respond to that message. I had to
rewrite it twice because once my software attempted to send it, it felt it was
done, despite the fact CIS did not accept it. So I retyped it a third time,
and was just a little miffed when I came back later, and it was gone.
Perhaps the analogy about the newspaper was not a wise choice on my part. And
perhaps the heavy use of the word censorship was strong also. But eliminating
someone's point of view simply because they're not one of the good ole boys, or
hold with the good ole boy's way of thinking scares me.
Thank you very much for taking the time to explain the entire situation to me.
Thanks again.
Roger D.
Roger,
Your comm program was probably trying to reply to the message specifically in
section 1 when the message was really in section 0 by that time. Some of the
comm software will give you fits if the messages have been moved to a different
section between the time you download the messages and the time you post your
replies. Unfortunately, I don't know what to do about that.
I do hope that we NEVER eliminate someone's point of view just because they
aren't one of the good ole boys, or don't follow that point of view. If it ever
looks like we have done that, you jump on me right away. EVERYONE that becomes
a member of this forum should be treated equally, and if we ain't doing that we
should be made aware of it. (Yea!!! That includes the "Invalid Normal Array"
messages too.)
And actually your analogy of the newspaper is quite accurate except in one
fashion. We don't tell these cub and ace reporters what to write. (sheesh…
can you imagine trying to get away with that in this crowd??) We can only deal
with what has actually been written and posted to the board. And for the most
part, we try to stay out of the way. Sometimes it just isn't possible.
Thanks for having a sense of humor about this, Roger.
– G
Joe,
Regarding the newspaper analogy:
I have always thought that keeping Calvin & Hobbes off the front
page was a flagrant example of censorship.
I think you're doing a fine job with the forum.
Alec Jason
Oh !!! YEA!!!
Right on, but we gotta add SHOE along with the twerp and his tiger buddy.<g>
>>along with the twerp and his tiger buddy.<g>
"TWERP"!?!?!
A Personal Attack! A Personal Attack! Whooooooooo! Whoooooooooo! <g>
Joe:
I can respect the fact that you wish the forum membership to leave the job of
"bouncer" to you and the ADESK/Yost persons, and hopefully, now that this has
had a decent airing, everyone will. I think people have just gotten a little
bent out of shape that they were "come down on" (from their point of view) for
defending the forum and its membership.
Dave
Joe:
Time for me to kick this dead horse.
A while back I was flamed, chastised, reprimanded, etc. from a sysop who shall
remain nameless for my attack of a person who posted a message not unlike the
one which started this fire fight (I'm guessing on this similarity because I
didn't get to read the original as it was yanked out of view). This pea brain
was claiming that Autodesk sucks, Autodesk doesn't listen and that the product
should be changed to suit his needs. I called the phillistine, pig-ignorant,
malodorous poster of the attack on Autodesk "Buttcheese" and told him to post
his message in the AutoCad forum where maybe someone would help him if he toned
down his 'tude.
From the sysop I took all the heat and from the sysop the other guy was given
the unflamed non-confrontational pleasant message. This is exactly how you are
treating Bill and it doesn't appeal to me at all. This is not a consistent
policy if you don't treat each party with the same respect or lack of it. As
David R. points out the sysop always comes down harder on the responder, not
the originator.
I suggest that a complete laissez-faire approach would work better than the
uneven approach which is currently employed. Can a forum exist without
corporate or organizational sponsorship on Compuserve? It may be time to create
an Animators forum without the rules which constrain free conversation. I know
you believe that Compuserve has its own rules but I can tell you first hand
that there are forums where personal attacks, swearing and general anarchy are
allowed by the sysops and nobody is complaining.
Bob
There is a difference between attacking Autodesk, 3D Studio, or other
institutions, and attacking an individual.
The difference is called Libel. And, if Autodesk allows one forum member to
libel another with impunity, they may become a party to a legal action.
Evan <The opinions expressed here are mine only, and do not
necessarily reflect the views of the forum management.
I do not set or enforce policy in this forum.>
Do you really think the courts could handle the concept of "libel in
cyberspace"? I do not think that the threat of a libel suit has ever motivated
thread removal. Sysops move threads for much less dramatic reasons, like
someone using the "f" word, because this is a Family Place. Apparently, they
don't know the family in my apartment complex who always leaves windows open.
🙂
No, I don't think our legal system is ready for cyberspace. Not even close.
But remember, anyone with $80 in their pocket can sue anyone else, and make
them spend a lot of money on defense.
Evan <All views are my own>
Anyone with $80 in their pocket and a beef about CIS messages would chase after
the entity with the most money… I wonder if that's CompuServe Inc or
Autodesk?
My wife is a lawyer. She had a guy ask if she could start an action against
the beer companies, because they give away signs, and he's a sign-maker, and he
thought it was a violation of the Free Trade Act.
Bob, like any organic system, the asoft forum has it's constraints, ups and
downs. On the whole, the folks here try VERY hard to be helpful to other 3DS
and AA/AAP users… that is the ENTIRE and should be the ONLY point to being
here. Because so many people are true to this ideal, this is a wonderful place
to be if you use these Autodesk products to do animation.
As long as I am involved with the forum, it'll have a vibe in which people feel
that they can come here and be friendly and get questions answered.
That's always been my personal goal for asoft.
– G
Gary:
I understand the difficult position which you and the forum sponsors are put
in. What I would really like to see is you and the Sysops just fire off some
ultra high intensity flame mail in response to some of the flame-throwing
intruding wackos. Guy's like me and Bill have tried to stick up for you knowing
you'd probably have to constrain yourselves and all we get is chastised. I
learned my lesson. I don't respond to the torching whiners which show up now
and again. I'll stay out of it.
I'd really love to see Joe M. or Evan Y. cut loose a "Blow it out your …"
message.
You're always calm as are most of the Sysops. I know the perfect gift for all
of you if I only had the bucks. I send you all new CSERVE memberships with
convincing aliases. You could be the level headed Gary one minute or the
untraceable napalm spraying Joe Smith who takes no crap from nobody the next
minute.
As you instructed me the last time this bs happened, its time to let this go.
Bob
>I'd really love to see Joe M. or Evan Y. cut loose a "Blow it out your
>…" message.
I can't do that here. I'm a 3DS dealer, and don't want to upset the folks at
Autodesk who run the forum. And, the truth be known, I'd rather not raise the
tension level here. I've done it too much already.
Evan
Will everyone PLEASE sit down and take a deep breath!
This subject has been beaten to death, and it will stop now. Policies and
procedures of the forum are under review, and will be announced shortly.
However, in the interest of restoring peace and tranquility to this virtual
reality, I declare everyone the winner, and everyone will now return to the
normal (or should that be Abby Normal?) business of providing timely and useful
answers to questions about Autodesk products.
Life is too short and time (especially here) is money. Please, everyone let
this subject drop for a while.
Look at it this way… when confronted with the occasional jerk who happens to
land in the forum, it's a great opportunity to work on your compassion! (a
great way to score kharmic brownie points, btw)
– G
Well put, Joe. You make some very good points.
– G
Roger,
From the threads prior, it sounds like your message was moved to section 0 as
part of a thread that contained offensive messages. We will never delete
messages from the forum, only move them to a closed section. However, as Evan
pointed out, both yourself and the intended recipient can delete messages.
Also, as Evan pointed out, this forum generally follows the guidlines set forth
in your CompuServe Service agreement. one noticeable addition to that is the
restrictions placed on advertising, which can be found in ADGUID.TXT. This
file is currently being updated to become more comprehensive, and cover more
forum policies.
The bottom line: We try to be very loose and let members have as much free
reign as possible. The only notable exceptions to this are when postings
include profanity, or material we feel would be offensive to other members of
the forum.
-Brian
B.R. [Adesk],
>>…profanity, or material "we" feel would be offensive to other members of
the forum.<<
We and others have seen the infamous section 0 (Secret???, Private???? You can
look that up under "Nixon, Tapes") and it seems it has had many more messages
that point out that the Emperor has no clothes than anything else.
JD. ;-} Where will this message end up….?
>Where will this message end up….?<
Right where you left it.
I gotta admit that's a pretty neat trick trying to compare the forum
maintenance to the Nixon tapes and indirectly to the Watergate break in. What's
that trick called now ??…..Ah!!…..I remember……..It's called a non
sequitur. So you don't have to look it up, it means trying to change the
meaning of something by associating it with something entirely different. Also
pretty tricky dragging in the fairy tales. Not very original though.
Are you seriously trying to pick a fight ?? Sheesh….I'm tired.
But just for your information. This forum (as is any forum on CIS) has some
basic guidelines. Incidentally you agreed to those guidelines by using CIS.
These guidelines are the Rules and Regulations for using the service as
promulgated by the CompuServe Information Service…..all that fine print that
comes along with your UID. Did you read that fine print ??? Are you aware of
what CIS expects of you while you are using THEIR network, computer time and
disk space ??? When messages don't comply with these Rules and Regulations they
are moved from the public section of the board. When files don't comply with
these Rules and Regulations they are not posted to the libraries. If we don't
enforce these Rules and Regulations we are as guilty as the posters of the
messages or the uploaders of the files.
You got a problem with that ????
Joe,
I was being funny, but as I have been informed, people that deal with, use,
agonize over, and gaze endlessly into their monitor and the (really!) wonderous
AutoDESK product of choice seem to loose their sense of humor. I personally
like and feed sysops.
I will call and be nice to one today, I promise.
JD.