#HD Floppy Drives!!!
75 messages in this thread
Help, Help!!
I finally found someone selling HD floppy drives for my A3000.
I installed the drive with no problems. It works great! . . . By itself.
My question is:
How do I get the old floppy to show up as DF1:?
Basic Info: I have an A3000, 10 MB RAM, 50MB int HD (more external),
Video Toaster, AMAXII+ card, and 2 floppy drives (one HD, one Lo-D).
Since I moved the old (lo-density) floppy drive over to the right hand bay
in the Amiga (and the last connector on the floppy cable), I was hoping
to get it set up as DF1: and use my new HD floppy as DF0:.
Either drive, hooked up by itself, will work just fine as DF0: (regardless
of which of the 2 connectors on the floppy cable are used).
When I hook up both drives, it acts as though they are both DF0: (ie: put
a floppy in one drive, and both drive lights will come on).
I even tried changing and/or removing the Drive Select jumpers on the
floppy drives (a set of jumpers labeled DS0-DS4) to see if that would
help. This only made matters worse!
All the while, my external floppy (DF2:) is working just fine. :^*
So, what do I do?
I know I should be able to get 2 internal floppies working.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. I got the floppy drive from Computer Video Associates, Fla.,
Phone #813-576-5242. Ordered on Friday, 2nd day UPS to me today (Tuesday)
– $10 shipping.
You have to change the jumper on the back of the 2nd Amiga drive to DS1,
also make sure you have changed the jumper on the motherboard.
Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 – via Whap!
Yeah, I just found out about the jumper.
I moved the jumper on the mother board (J351 – middle of the motherboard,
to the left of the expansion bus connector) from the NO DF1 position, to
the DF1 position.
Now 'info' shows df0: & df1: as 'unreadable disk's – regardless of the
position of the Drive Select jumpers. I get the same message when 0, 1, or
2 floppies are connected – seemingly regardless of which is connected.
Question: Does it make a difference which connector the 2nd drive is
hooked up to?
Currently, I have the new HD floppy in the left drive bay, connected to
the first (middle) connector on the cable. Drive Select is set to DS0.
The old Lo-D floppy is in the right bay, hooked up to the end connector on
the cable (the one AFTER the twist in lines 4-6 on the cable). I have
tried setting the Lo-D floppy to both DS0 & DS1 – neither seemed to help.
What is the twist in the cable doing? On IBMs, the twist means that both
floppies get set to DS0, and the twist changes the ID of the drive so the
controller thinks it is something besides DS0.
Thanks for your help,
Erik Flom
Bonehead alert!
I've got the problem solved.
I have an early A3000 (MotherBoard rev 8.9) that had a floppy cable with a
twist in 3 wires (pins 4-6) (I guess SOME machines have flat cables?)
Because I have an AMAXII+ & a Toaster in my A3000, I was forced to make a
new longer floppy drive cable – fortunately, I made it extra long. I
needed the extra length even more after I found out that:
It appears that DF0: MUST be hooked to the last connector on the cable,
with jumpers set on the drive set to DS0.
DF1, is then connected to the middle connector, with jumpers set to DS1.
(I was trying to put DF0: on the middle connector and DF1: on the last
conn., just to keep DF0: [now an HD floppy drive] in the left bay where
its always been [I'm a creature of habit] – the cables fit better that
way. I still have DF0: in the left bay, the cables run all the way from my
AMAXII+ board over to DF1: in the right bay, and then BACK to DF0: in the
left bay.) What a mess! But it works!
I did verify that the HD floppy will not work as DF1: (I had seen that
documented in messages from others). You get an error when trying to
format/read disks.
I also downloaded a file called 'HDFIX.LHA' from one of the Amiga
sections. This proved quite useful.
'HDFixer' is a patch to the 37.175 kickstart that fixes a bug where
QuarterBack (and others I guess) would not recognize the HD floppy. With
HDFixer running, QuarterBack had no problem determining the size of the
floppy in DF0: and thus backed up over 1.3MB onto a single 3.5" disk.
Hope this is of some use to others who, like I, will try to install the
floppy drive themselves w/o documentation (app. Commodore just sends the
drive with no literature – such support!).
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
P.S. It seems to work fine as an HD flopy drive under AMAXII. I've even
mounted MS-DOS HD disks – and we all know how painful that can be! :^)
Erik, I seem to recall some discussion around here that the reason the HD
floppies became unavailable for a while was that you couldn't get two
drives to work. AmigaDOS 2.1 was supposed to fix the problem. BTW, the
first drive on the cable – before the twist – should be df0: (set to ds0),
the one after the twist should be set to DS1.
.
Jim
Is this the voice of experience?
I could ONLY get it to work by putting DF0: (DS0) AFTER the twist in the
cable.
Oh well,it works, DF0: is the new HD floppy drive, and it's in the left
hand bay of my 3000 – where DF0: SHOULD be :^)
Thanks for the info.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
It *should* be the voice of experience. 🙂 But I'm online from home rather
than the store where I could look at a machine & see for sure. My memory
isn't working well lately, must be some bad chips in the forebrain. :-/
Jim
Erik,
I went to my local Amiga dealer today and asked about the HD floppy. He
said C= is not shipping them, they aren't available and anyone selling
them is probably taking them out of A3000s putting LO-D drives in them and
making some bucks off of the buyer. He also says that C= knows the serial #
of these HD drives, and which machines they were originally installed in,
he also claims that C= is keeping track of this particular part more so
than others. He also went on to say that there is NO A1200 for SALE
anywhere, that it hasn't even gotten out of the board molds, that
developers don't have them yet, and that you can't buy them, plus he claims
that he was just over at West Chester (we do live about 35 minutes from
there) and C= is not pleased with all the talk about a product that isn't
on the market. So who do you believe?
Chris
I'll tell you one thing – if CBM "isn't pleased about all the talk" then
someone needs to gather the overseas and local marketing types together,
bang their heads a few times, hard, and make 'em smell the coffee. You
canNOT release something in Europe and expect it to be a secret "over
here".
With international telecomm networks, there is no such THING as "over
here".
There is little more frustrating to developers to know *exactly* what is
going on, see misinformation go by and not be allowed to correct it. But
that's the position we get put in.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Chris,
I think C='s attitude (if what you report is at all indicative of their
official attitude) is rather foolish. Everyone and their mother knows
about the A1200, and we know about it (well, most of us anyway) through
legitimate sources. This machine looks like it could be the most exciting
and successful Amiga ever. Should I not be excited? Am I supposed to
keep my mouth shut and my fingers off the keyboard just because the
information flow has messed up C='s announcement schedule? Poor
babies…I really grieve for them. They oughtta take the energy they're
putting into being prissy and channel it into their marketing effort.
-Dave (via AutoPilot)
Chris,
Tell you what…anyone who believes your dealer…can see me about
a bridge about 100 or so miles north of you….I understand it's coming
back on the market at a quite reasonable price.
Don
Don,
I did not argue with the man, he took off on the comment I made of when he
expected to have 1200s in stock. I let him talk, did not add anything to
the conversation and left it at that, he also told me that Compuserve
claims anything uploaded to their system becomes their property and that
is why a lot of shareware authors don't want their stuff uploaded to it.
Now how about that one? I for one don't believe it, and if any author
notified you that his software wasn't allowed on the system you'd remove
it wouldn't you?
Chris
Chris,
CompuServe claims copyrights on the compilation of data on line. The
individual files remain property of their owners, but if you try to
download the whole service they'll go after you. 🙂 ((Not sure, but I
think each forum IP has rights for the data in their respective forums,
similar in nature to the CompuServe claim.))
Bill, K3OZM
On AutoPilot
Chris,
He's absolutely FLAT WRONG on the Compuserve issue. Compuserve
only claims that it owns the copyright on the *collection* of software,
definately NOT on the individual items. For clarification…GO COPYRIGHT
and read it for your self. You might also want to print off a copy of it
(along with the notice Denny posted about the 1200) to wave in your
dealer's face.
Don
Don,
I kinda resent that characterization. We at Video Computer make an effort
to be as informed as possible. Not all dealers give bad advice or tell
stories to sell hardware.
-mark=
Mark,
Quit being so sensitive and read the message…I was characterizing
Chris's dealer as less than informed. I certainly didn't make that comment
about all dealers.
Remember when messages are addressed to a specific person, then
words like "your" relate back to the person to whom the message was
addressed. All others should replace the "your" with "<addressee's>" so in
this case…it'd be "…Chris' dealer…"
Don
Sorry, I did read the message! You should turn on the 'history' feature
in AutoPilot–it can keep you from embarassements like this.
You said "anyone who believes your dealer…". I think my response was
appropriate and not over reactionary.
I appreciate you changing your tune in this message, but please don't
characterize me as someone being to sensitive. It was you that said
"anyone who believes your dealer", not I.
-mark=
Mark,
I was NOT changing my tune, I stand by my statement made to Chris:
to Chris: …who believes YOUR dealer…
If I had addressed the message to all, then I'd be speaking of all
dealers, but when I'm speaking to one person then I'm speaking of his
specific dealer.
Don't forget that the message base is one person talking to
another, with the rest of the users "evesdropping" (which is the intention,
of course). So when you read a message like that…read it as if you were
overhearing me talk directly to the person to whom the message is
addressed.
Again..if it were addressed to all, I'd agree with you, but I stand
by my statement to Chris…and to you that you're being to sensitive and
reading things into the message that were never intended.
Don
A point of language…
The statement, "anyone who believes your dealer", would refer to a
specific individual. To refer to all dealers, the statement would be,
"anyone who believes his dealer".
You're welcome.
-DonM – On Autopilot from 1Q1 –
Altitude hold is on; now all's I need is coupled nav!
Don,
Obviously I agree…and that is what I meant…a specific dealer.
Else, I'd have used, "anyone who believes their dealer"…since I
tend to gender neutral pronouns <grin>.
Don
Mark,
BTW…to enforce the point about the message being addressed to
Chris, note the salutation. I once again, suggest you go read the message
in context with the thread.
Don
Don,
Fine–call me sensitive, it is really a small point anyway.
Ok, so if you are not talking about 'all' dealers and you are talking
about Chris's dealer, that is fine. I can run with that one. Lets
address you, a SysOp of CIS, talking about Chris's dealer.
I am sensitive to those who wish to bash dealers in a public forum,
without having known them or done business with them. Chris's dealer may
not be the greatest then again, who knows? I think you owe that company
the decency to keep your comments about their livelyhood to email.
Certainly you *may* have influenced Chris to never visit his dealer again,
and if he buys your reasoning then he may influence another customer not
to go there, on and on.
If Chris's dealer was here to defend himself that would be one thing. It
is another to offer to sell a bridge to someone who believes anything that
Chris's dealer says. I guess it is fortunate that Chris's dealer doesn't
have a name at this point.
Of course that is just my opinion.
In retrospect, it was probably better when I thought that you were talking
about all dealers. That way I could find resolve in the fact that you are
just talking out of the side of your mouth, talking the standard party
line. Ya know the one, bash the dealer and then bash Commodore.
Perhaps your sensitivity would go up if you tried to make your living
selling these machines. Perhaps if you stood behind the couner for a week
you might learn how things that are said, can be accidently twisted and
what was truth suddenly becomes a lie–just because a customer did not
listen.
It may seem to you that I am making a big scene out of nothing, perhaps I
am. It is just that I have the basic opinion that SysOps are the people
who set the standards around here.
-mark=
Mark,
While I did not talk to the dealer, I replied to what Chris posted
and gave my honest opinion of what Chris said the dealer told him. Chris
ended that message with the sentence, "So who do you believe?" and I
answered that question.
I refuse to move such discussions to EMail, I think it's important
to let the users here know what kind of rumors are being spread by
people…be those people dealers or not. The dealer's name was never
mentioned, nor do I care who it is. Chris knows if he mis-quoted the
dealer or not. Chris can also make up his own mind about the reliability
of his dealer based on what the dealer is telling him, and the information
from other users here on CIS (and elsewhere) that have information contrary
to what his dealer said.
As to bashing dealers in general, I have found in my experience
that there are many dealers who are top quality, well informed and will try
to work with their customers to make sure that what they buy is what they
really need and that it matches the customer's budget. And I've also found
that there are dealers who are only interested in the fast buck. There are
dealers who pay so little that the only salespeople they can attract are
ill-informed kids who'll say anything to make a sale. And there are
dealers who will flat lie in order to make a sale. My experience, based on
my own personal observations…and on user's messages here is that the good
dealers outweigh the bad dealers by a fair amount…but that poor dealers
DO exist.
I believe we're doing a service for our users to let them know what
to watch out for.
As to setting standards, I think you'll also find that I am one of
the few people here that generally supports Commodore. And I also always
reccomend that users visit their local dealer rather than go mail order
because ofthe service they can get from a good dealer far outweights the $
savings by going mail order.
I tend to get in trouble (arguments) here on CIS exactly because I
don't take the "standard party line"
Don
Mark, Why are you the way you are?
I thought it that you were acting the way you were just towards me in my
thread…because of your true belief in your opion. But you seem to make a
big deal out of everything you disagree with.
Dave
Elite MicroComputers 908-541-4214 – via Whap!
A point of language…
The statement, "anyone who believes your dealer", would refer to a
specific individual. To refer to all dealers, the statement would be,
"anyone who believes his dealer".
You're welcome.
-DonM – On Autopilot from 1Q1 –
Altitude hold is on; now all's I need is coupled nav!
There are dealers in canada selling Amiga HD drives!
I ordered one from a Canadian dealer several weeks ago, and haven't seen
it yet. 🙁
That was why I chose to order from an English speaking person (no offense
intended) who would take VISA.
Keep On Toastin' (& Good Luck)
Erik Flom
The delaership in Canada I delat with sort of spoke English… and
definately understood "VISA or MASTERCARD" 🙂 they also made it clear
that they can only get a couple of drives every few weeks.
I just didn't feel comfortable ordering from them.
My conversation was basically:
'Do you take VISA?'
"Yes, send us a check. It'll take a few weeks."
Maybe I should have tried harder, but this was LONG distance in the middle
of the business day, I couldn't afford to spend time on the phone.
Thanks,
Erik Flom
P.S. What is the straight poop on these drives? Are they cannibalized from
systems (are the Commodore Thought Police gonna' break down my doors), or
can dealers actually order them for existing (older) systems?
I tried to find one locally and got nothing but the runaround. Then I call
a few places, most say no, one guy says "Yeah, sure we got 'em!"
This really does NOT help to promote the platform.
The drives seem to work fine (esp with the HDFIX.LHA patch), and
there IS NO REASON Commodore should delay shipping these
any longer (especially if they come in 'some new systems').
The HD Floppy drive will be invaluable in my job as an independent
Videographer.
I just thinks its about time they are becoming avalable.
Thanks for any logical reason/excuses you may be able to provide,
Confused,
Erik Flom
Erik…
The only 'straight scoop' I have is very dated and to be considered rumor
only, and that is that CBM owns the technical design of the drive and was
having them made by Chinon… but the first drive specs had some problems
(like not working as DF1) and CBM wouldn't order a large quantity from
Chinon until they were happy with the performance… I'd even heard at one
point that this was considered one of the delays in finalizing the 2.1/3.0
operating system, which affected several the release of several third
party products (like CrossDos 5 & The Ambassador). I haven't heard that
everything is back on track, but I would _guess_ that it is, and we should
see the drives become available just as soon as CBM can get a large enough
quantity in form Chinon (if they even remain the manufacturer… and I've
heard nothing to the contrary about that). Again, this all
R U M O R ! R U M O R ! R U M O R ! R U M O R ! R U M O R !
Michael,
I jumped a little late at the conversation, but, can you please tell me
what's this HD floppy drive you and Erik are talking about? specs, price?
Thanxs
Jorge Escobar/MEGABYTE PRODUCTIONS (…and AutoPilot, of course!)
Thanks for the info.
My 2 cents worth:
RUMOR, RUMOR, RUMOR, RUMOR
That's ALL I heard for months.
I couldn't wait any longer.
I bought an HD drive, screw Commodore if they don't want me to have it.
This has DRAMATICALLY improved the level of service I can provide to the
WIDE BASE of computers I have to deal with in my business.
Frankly, THEY ARE ABOUT A YEAR LATE ON THIS _AND_ THE 'AA' CHIPSET!
Pardon the CAPS, but I'm just a lowly 3000 user who got hosed on the AA
chipset.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Erik:
As I recall there either is or was a problem with the HD floppies not
working properly unless they were DF0:. You couldn't add one say as DF1:
and have it work properly, you'd have to have the HD floppy as DF0:, and
move your old 880k floppy to being DF1:. I have an HD floppy in my 3000
and it works great as a 1.76m Amiga drive, or using CrossDOS as a 1.44m
IBM formatted floppy. It also works good under AMaxII+ as a HD Mac drive
as well!
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Thanks for the info.
I finally got it working.
I was trying to put my 880k drive in the right hand bay as DF1: and hooked
it up to the END connector on the floppy drive. This seemed to cause
problems.
I finally got it working when I hooked the 880K drive to the MIDDLE
connector of the floppy cable, and put the HD drive (DF0:) on the END
connector.
Go Figger . . .
Erik Flom
The HD Drives are *not* a product yet available to dealers from Commodore.
I am a direct Commodore dealership–I get their product listings all of
the time. At this time, in the United States anyway, there is no such
product as the HD drive for the Amiga.
It was not until the A4000 that there was one promised to be shipped in
each machine. We did have several 3000s and 3000Ts that came with this
drive. It was rather random, and according to one Commodore official all
HD drives shipped were a mistake.
So, if these drives are being sold it would be my guess that the
individual selling them is getting them out of machines.
-mark=
Mark,
My dealer says they're not available as add-on drives, so aren't in
the retail catalog, but are available as replacement parts…thru his tech.
Don
Mark:
Some US dealers _are_ getting them, one or two at a time, from service, as
replacement parts, even though it can not be ordered as an accessory.
Well, as I said, the Commode-Odor Thoght Police can come over and get its
serial number, but I could not afford to keep losing business because of
their slow, inept development process.
Its about time SOME people are getting the drives, and if the dealer is
RIPPING OFF system purchasers, they should be penalized.
Still, since Commodore is not telling people whether or not the floppy in
their new machine is HD, how would the buyer know he's being ripped off by
a dishonest dealer.
.
Erik Flom
Well, that story from your dealer MIGHT be true, though most dealers in
the Bay Area seem like boneheads in general when it comes to the Amiga.
If Commodore is so hot about keeping these HD drives off the market, then
they can send a tech over to take apart my case and write down the serial
number.
Frankly, I am sick and tired of waiting for them – HD Floppies are a
standard with all the clients I deal with, and I can't AFFORD to keep
living in the stone age. Just last week, I lost $35-70 of potential work
because I couldn't pull over stuff from his Mac HD floppy – A shortcoming
I no longer have to tolerate.
As an A3000 owner for 2.5 years, I am still smarting from the lack of an
upgrade path to the AGA chipset (not to mention Toaster incompatibilities
– having got my 3000 before the Toaster was released!). After waiting this
long for 24 bit graphics in the OS (tho' the AA chipset STILL doesn't
support true 24 bits/pixel), I am more than miffed by not being able to
upgrade my 3000 with a plug-in card. Where is the Device Independent
Graphics interface?
As for the 1200. . . .
Yeah, right. I can 'upgrade' to that. Bet my rendering will just rip along
in that 'beauty'. (It does fit its niche, but that's about all).
"Watch Out, it's the MacLCII killer!! (scream!)(trample)"
The more I look at other platforms, the better they look.
My girlfriend (the Windows developer) is going to buy a system soon.
Here is an example of the system:
486DX2-66Mhz CPU, 256K cache, 8MB RAM, 340MB HD, Local bus 'Mach 32' video
co-processor (offering 2MB video RAM, resolutions similar to the AA
chipset and data I/O at 33Mhz over a 32bit dedicated video bus on the
motherboard [the VESA VL-BUS standard], and performance 10-15 times faster
than the ET4000 SVGA chipset), caching HD controller, 2 floppy drives, 15"
FlatSquare Non-Interlaced monitor, and your choice of software (MS Excel,
Window, Programmer's Pack, Borland Paradox & Turbo C++ or Pascal, etc.).
Here is the price:
<continued>
$2995.00
BTW, I could then go out and buy a $329 plug-in card that offers 2 video
inputs, and a built-in tv tuner. This would give me frame grabbing
capability and REALTIME TV in a window. True, a toy compared to the
Toaster, but ALOT cheaper. And there will be many more products like this
soon. . . .
I will admit the Amiga is a cool machine, and (despite my misgivings)
would probably buy again.
I think this DMI Digital EditMaster sounds like a REAL HOT product. I am
impatiently waiting for that.
But just look at the prices, and the number of people out there using
IBMs.(Not to mention Macs)
To hassle users trying to be compatible with the rest of the world would
be typical Commodore.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Erik,
I don't know what to say about the system your lady friend intends to buy,
should it be an exclamation of amazement and awe? <grin>
It does sound like quite a capable, powerful system, it would make a nice
server for an Amiga Novell network.
Chris
My feelings exactly, but the point I was trying to make is that that is
EXACTLY what the 'NEW, IMPROVED' A4000 is available for.
On top of that, the PC system has
twice as much RAM,
almost 3 times as much disk storage,
caching IDE controller,
video co-processor (32 bit data path at CPU speeds [sound familiar?]),
oodles of GUI software,
AND a 15" monitor,
(And NO SALES TAX [unless you live in S Dakota]).
Stiff Competition.
NOW, BEFORE YOU START PREACHING TO THE CHOIR,
I AM AN AMIGA USER AND EVANGELIST!!!
I agree that it would make a great server for an Amiga Novell Network.
(Tho' I'd get rid of the IDE and make it a 1-2Gig SCSI drive [and DAT
backup], drop the local bus video, get a mono graphics card [all a server
needs], make it a DX-50Mhz instead of a DX2-66, bump the RAM up to 32MB
and put it in a nice big tower case with 2 fans.)
(Oh well, I can dream can't I? :^)
I have to admit that at first glance this ENLAN Amiga peer-to-peer network
software sounds interesting.
I will be calling them ASAP for more info.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Yeah, the 4000 is just scratching at muscle system if you compare it to a
latest model 486. I ain't the preaching type. "Youse what youse needs to
gets the joibe don", that's what I always say.
Chris
'Use the best tool for the job' – gosh, the voice of reason.
I am glad to hear at least someone who can understand the importance of
more than one platform in the computing world.
If people had the same attitude about the environment as they have about
the PC world, the only species remaining would be mankind – 'Who needs
anything else?'
(Of course, the Republicans think that crazy environmentalist Al Gore
'the OZONE MAN', would have us 'up to our ears in owls, and out of work.'
– Since the polls show old George might get '4 more years', this
comparison might not make 'sense' to the teeming masses of ComuServe)
I'm bracing for the flaming rebukes of my comparison of this 'lowly' 486
system to the 'NEW, IMPROVED' 4000, but the point I am trying to make is:
For the 'uninitiated' (ignoring the Amiga cogniscenti), an IBM is a much
SAFER, CHEAPER choice than the Amiga.
I wish it weren't true, but the handwriting has been on the wall for about
1-2 years now.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Oh so true on the 486 issue… To wit;
I just purchased a 486 system that crushes several price barriers. It's a
486
50 mhz box(a true DX not the DX2), with 2 Fujitsu 512 meg H.D., 20 meg RAM
dual floppies, Chinon CD-ROM, Logitech Scanner, Orchid Fahrenheit graphics
accelorator ( 24bit ) and a vision VGA-NTSC graphics adapter… and mouse
of course, for $ 4,000. It'snot fair to compare Apples (Amigas) and
oranges but to the casual user or the corporate head that wants to keep his
business the Intel based machines are hard to beat.
I really prefer my souped up A500 (very souped up) and my A3000, but hey…
I do live in the real world.
Ok – and I am keeping in mind that you are an Amigafan…
First of all, it doesn't MATTER how much more ram you stick in an
MSDOS/Windows PC, because, now pay attention: They can't USE it for
diddly, especially for non-win apps! I'd like to see the PC application
that can effectively use, oh, 30 megs of ram. I can name a LOT of Amiga
applications that can, just offhand.
Secondly, the video they have is NOT as good as the 4000's, in fact it's
not even close – believing that it is is just being confused by something,
or somebody.
Third, Windows itself is a hack that lives on top of MSDOS, and underneath
there are zillions of limitations just waiting to bite you;
Fourth, that machine can't multitask worth beans because the way its
designed, the multitasking is only as good as the worsst application
loaded, which it typically terrible.
Fifth, IDE isn't anything to brag about – it's the skeleton in the closet
for the 4000 – someone ought to have their head cut off for including it.
The fact that it's a standard on PC's just points up how sorry PC's
typically are.
Sixth, "Oodles" of GUI software is what you get with the 4000… and it
doesn't even take 10 megs of your HD for the operating system the way
windows does, what a concept. :^)
Seventh, I don't have to pay sales tax on Amigas, either, cuz I live in
Montana. :^)
Now… you should know that we've just finished developing a
sophisticated, properly multitasking, complex, memory-using Windows 3.1
application. I'm well-steeped in windows-lore right now, unfortunately,
and I've been moderately well informed about the Amiga since, oh, October
1985. :^)
All of this is my opinion, only – based on quite a few known *facts*.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Gosh, I feel like I'm in church again (the ONE TIME I WENT – yuck!)
OK, let's take it one by one:
1: Ignore DOS, its days are numbered. As for WinApps, where do you think
many good Windows programmers cut their teeth – the Amiga (they will port
over the best of the Amiga into this newer, MUCH bigger, market for
software). BTW, I know several Amiga users who are high up in Microsoft –
where do you think they got some of their ideas for windows.
2. Your comments re: video indicate that YOU have been ignoring the
competition. And anyway, 'GOOD' is determined by what you need out of the
display system – what is the A4000 going to offer someone who is trying to
develop Windows software?
3. Ignore DOS, its days are numbered.
4. True, multitasking is one of the areas where the Amiga is STILL THE
BEST MACHINE. But, DOS' days ARE numbered, and Win32 and WinNT are going
to give other multitasking OS' a run for their money – if only when you
take their installed base into consideration.
5. Ignoring the benefits of SCSI (and there are many), IDE is cheaper, and
sometimes even faster per MB than SCSI (on the IBM platform – a different
beast from the 4000). Oh yeah, BTW, the A4000 DOESN'T support SCSI (STOCK
IDE ONLY), so I guess I have to buy an old buggy A2091 controller to put
into it, since I'll have to JUNK my A3000 (were I crazy enough to consider
upgrading in the next few months).
6. OK, if we're talking Graphical User Interface, AmigaDOS is still small
and efficient when compared to the Mac or the IBM, it is by no means the
MOST STANDARDIZED, nor the EASIEST TO USE.
But, I hasten to point out:
Ignore DOS, its days are numbered.
Betamax WAS a better 1/2" video format until the day VHS ground it into
the dirt.
7. Sorry, I live in CA. Sales tax is at 8.25%-9.25%, depending on where
you buy in the SF Bay Area. Sales tax is an important consideration when I
make a $3000 purchase.
8. Your last comments re:
"we've just finished developing a sophisticated, properly multitasking,
<continued>
1 -DOS is still the most widely used OS out there. To ignore it is not
prudent, perhaps even silly when talking about the machinery and software
that is out there. Ask me again next year. :^)
2 – I never ignore the competition. These machines you're talking about
don't usually have 24-bit gfx, in fact they *usually* have 256 color gfx.
Some have 32k color gfx, IBM is promoting 32k or 64k as the Newest Best
Thing right _now_. The Amiga 4k and 1.2k have 262k color systems – they
look better, hands down. We have several enhanced color cards, and they do
NOT look as good. Good is determined by which looks better side by side,
don't be silly.
3 – see #1
4 – Win32 and WinNT are vaporware. Heck, if you want to talk about vapor
we can say anything. Stick to what is real.
5 – IDE sucks. If it's faster on the IBM, again, you have only the (sorry)
architecture to blame. A VW bug doesn't fit a 12-cylinder Jag engine,
either, but that doesn't mean that the VW runs better with it's four
cylinder. I mentioned the IDE as being the 4ks' achilles heel, I think –
you DID read my message???
6 – yep, AmigaDOS is better. :^)
7 – I'd be sorry too, if I were you. You do have my sympathy for living in
CA, though. :^)
I'll deal with 8 later… your message was chopped.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ok, I knew I was waving a red flag in front of an Amiga Bull when I
started this, but here we go again. . . .
I REITERATE, I OWN AN A3000, AND WILL PROBABLY BUY AMIGA AGAIN – FOR
MYSELF, BUT NOT FOR OTHERS. I DIDN'T WANT TO START ONE OF THESE MINDLESS
'MY MACHINE'S BIGGER THAN YOURS.' CONTESTS.
1. 'DOS is still the most widely used OS'. Yeah, then why should I
recommend the Amiga to the average user? And anyway, I was referring to
Win32 & WinNT, replacements to DOS for the existing hardware. As YOU said
'Ask me next year. :^)' (Will that be AFTER you've dropped Amiga
development, to make more money on Win APPS?)
2. Though I was raving about a 24bit standard, I am aware of the
limitations of current video cards for the IBM. If we were arguing
displays for PRESS I would recommend the MAC, graphics for video – Amiga,
and graphics for WINDOWS PROGRAMMING (the only use I stated I was putting
the 486 to) – IBM.
Look, I can tell that 'YOU KNOW WHAT IS BEST FOR ME'
Now, I know who to go to to get
GOOD, SOLID, UNBIASED OPINION.
Lets just drop this whole useless tirade.
P.S. I hope you make lots of bucks on your Windows APPS, I bet you'll make
more there than on OUR beloved Amiga.
I too live in CA and wnat to get out !!!!!!
-Jonathan
WIN NT is NOT vaporware… It is shipping in the Software Developers Kit,
and is into Beta now…
I run NT on my system… Do admit it uses LOTS of resources! 🙂
You are in Bozeman, right? Boy, I miss Montana.
complex, memory-using Windows 3.1 application."
THAT IS WHY I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND THE AMIGA TO THE NEW PC USER.
I bet this is probably a DOS version of one of your cool Amiga products.
(No doubt using the tricks learned from the Amiga platform.)
How many units of the Windows verion do you think you'll sell compared to
the Amiga version? (Ignoring the fact that you guys have a stronger name
in the Amiga industry than in the IBM field).
It used to be that the Amiga was cheaper AND better.
Given the number of people developing for Windows (and this too is based
on 'quite a few known *facts*'), I don't see the amiga keeping an edge for
long.
When asked by people I know, I recommend IBM or Mac – depending on what
systems their friends and business associates use. (I have as yet to run
into someone who says 'most of my friends use amigas' – unfortunately.)
'The importance of a tool is determined by how MUCH you can use it.'
To counter your arguments re: 'experience':
I have known of the Amiga since its release, though have only owned one
for 5 years. I have never owned a PC or Mac, but worked as network
administrator/tech support for a mixed network of 100+ PCs and Macs.
Let's try to seperate prejudice from facts here.
I like the Amiga, and IT DOES A GREAT JOB – for what I want to do.
Unfortunately, my girlfriend ain't gonna' make as much money developing
for the amiga as for the ibm.
Thanks for your opinion, it is as valid as the one it responded to.
Now, just remember that I DID SAY I LIKED THE AMIGA in my first message.
Thanks and
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
8 – The Windows 3.1 product is a morphing only (1-feature from Imagemster,
no more) package. How many do I think we'll sell? Well, that's an
interesting question. Of the Amigas, about 4 million, how many are in
volved in video and gfx? Answer is "lots", whatever that means. Of windows
machines, how many are involved? "few", whatever THAT means. THose [people
are our potential market – no one else. Of the _potential market_, we seem
to make a great hit. On the Amiga, it's beginning to look like we will hit
the fabled 10% (of the potential market) easily. I expect that means the
same thing for windows. Do I think that we'll sell *more copies* on
Windows? Honestly? No. But we'll sell more than if we JUST sell to the
Amiga market, clearly. So we're doing it.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Hi Ben,
Don't want to step on any toes in here, but I am glad to see that you are
bringing a morph product out for the PC/Windows platform. I will buy it
just for the ability to morph without setting up huge layouts in 3D studio.
I trust that you will price it according to Amiga market prices and not PC
market prices! 🙂 I didn't think so.
One last item… will the PC product be able to share data with the Amiga
products ?
Erik:
As far as price goes, there's one point that it seems like very few people
pick up on. That is when you price an Amiga you're pricing a machine made
by the original manufacturer. When you price a Mac you're doing the same
thing. When you price an 'IBM' unless the machine says IBM on it, and is
made by IBM, it's not an IBM, but rather a clone. If you want to compare
prices, a better comparison would be to price a genuine IBM against an
Amiga.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike… considering that IBM now sells 486 machines for a bit more than a
few months pocket change, I don't know if I'd agree with that.
Where in the *HECK* did you find your HD floppy?
If any one knows where to get the high density floppies, please E-mail me!
I know of several people who would like to buy
Matt
I got it from a place called Computer Video Associates in Pinellas Park,
Fla. Their phone # is 813-576-5242. They did say it was 'their last one'
but they might be getting more.
They took my VISA #, shipped it that day, and I got it 2nd day UPS.
I am now in Floppy heaven :^)
It works GREAT under WB2.04 (though you should get HDFIX.lha – a system
patch that fixes bugs with QuarterBack tools and others). 1.7MB when using
FFS on the floppies (no bugs yet with swapping FFS floppies either?!?).
It works GREAT with my AMAXII+ card too! It reads, writes, and formats mac
HD floppies just fine. I stuck a blank HD floppy (or so I thought) in the
drive, and waited to be prompted for formatting. Imagine my surprise when
an INIT kicked in and the floppy showed up as a formatted HD IBM PC Floppy
on the AMAX desktop – WOW!
Now, to find a util for the Amiga which reads HD IBM PC Floppies.
BTW, check out my previous messages for tips (I guess you could call them
that :^) on installing in an old A3000.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Erik,
Sounds like its time for you to start a text file for upload to the
libraries on a "How to Install High Density Disk Drives". Please consider
writing one, and include all the items a person needs to be aware of to
make it less painful then your experience.
Thanks,
Chris
Oy, would that I could offer any 'expertise'.
It was trial and error all the way for me – I tried virtually every
permutation before trying to put DF0: on the last of the two connectors of
the floppy cable, that seemed to be the only problem.
Also, since I've got an early A3000 w/ Toaster and AMAXII+ card, my
experiences may have been far removed from the 'normal' Amiga owner (god
forbid there is such a thing as a NORMMAL Amiga owner :^).
If I see others crying out for help, I'll try to help via messages, and
consider writing something like "Erik's Adventures in HD FloppyLand", but
I really think it would end up being a case of the 'blind leading the
blind'.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Chris, I second your request to Erik for a HD FLOPPY PITFALLS file.
"Now, to find a util for the Amiga which reads HD IBM PC Floppies."
Erik:
You don't have CrossDos 5?
Is that Shareware?
I'm a bit tapped out right now (it's 'that time of the month' – rent
time).
If I need to, I can just use Apple File Exchange on the AMAX side until I
can afford something for the Amiga side.
Thanks,
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
Erik:
No, it's commercial, but VERY inexpensive, and probably one of the all
time best values in computer software, and certainly the best value on
this platform.
Mailorder, it is probably something like $50 _with_ a s/w PCXT emulator.
It works transparently, so you just pop an msdos disk in to your Amiga
drive and then you can do a DIR:PC0 and it will see the disk as an msdos
disk:
6.Ram Disk:> dir pc0:
DOS (dir)
COMMAND.COM FDISK.EXE
FORMAT.COM IO.SYS
MSDOS.SYS
Sounds cool, but $50 is still too much for me – until AFTER I buy that
syquest I am waiting for.
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
BTW… CrossDos is part & parcel to the 2.1/3.0 operating system… so it
will be included in your next OS upgrade.
Yeah, but let me quote the illustrious representative from Black Belt
Systems:
'Yeah, that's just vaporware.'
'Let's deal with things that REALLY EXIST.'
H.M.S. Amiga – 'And the band played on . . .'
Thanks,
Erik Flom
Speaking of things not fitting in the A3000…. I heard one dealer
complain that a syquest doesn't quite fit in the A4000! Anyone know if
this is true?
I was told by a friend that owns a Syquest and was thinking of getting a
A4000 but decided not to when he was told that the A4000 5.25" bay is 1/4"
too short for the Syquest.
Ha, 2.1 and 3.0 already exist!!!!!!!
-Jonathan
Get the AmigaDos 2.1 upgrade. It has CrossDos built in and will
read/write and format IBM HD (1.44) disks…
-Jonathan