All aboard!!
49 messages in this thread
Greg,
I know you have better things to do than answer a very "left brain" question
from a bonafide "right brain" guy, but if you wouldn't mind, this could at last
provide a clue into the mystery of video displays for lots of us.
Most of us 3Dstudio users have either a Targa+ board or an ATVista board
installed in our system(s). In addition, we generally have a VGA card of some
kind installed.
Since the Truevision products are specifically designed to be able to produce
full 24 bit color images, why can't the Truevision boards be utilized to work
with a 24 bit paint system?
For example, I have two systems side-by-side. One has a Diamond Stealth VRAM
board and a Targa+ 16/32. The other system has an ATVista board and a Diamond
Speedstar VGA board. They both work on two-monitor setups (a VGA work monitor
and a hi-res output monitor).
Since we are fortunate to have, in addition to Time Arts Lumina 32 software,
Fractal Painter 2.0 and Fauve Matisse, it surely would be nice to be able to
work in the paint systems (both are Windows programs) in something a bit higher
than 256 colors. Do you know of a way to utilize the power of the Truevision
boards to aid and abet in this endeavor? We are obviously missing something
here about cross utilization. Before we had multiple monitors, we had some
sort of cockamamie system of a VGA pass through for the Targa+ that required
some series of digital gymnastics to press a combination of buttons that
miraculously turned the multi-scan monitor into a hi-res monitor.
Unfortunately, we "right brain" folks don't always write down just exactly how
we did this a year ago. Is it possible that you remember this sequence?
Thanks for wading through this mish-mash of a question.
Michael
PMJI. The ATVista has a Windows driver available, but it is
only 16-bit color. The Targa+ has a Windows driver, and you can run
Windows on it in various modes, but it's not too satisfying if you
have an accelerated VGA-type board available instead. Pass-through
of VGA only works with the Targa+, but is limited to 640x480x8-bit,
due to a 256-color RAMDAC on the Targa+.
Kevin,
Once again, we have the almost perfect example of who's on first?
Somedays it seems like I should have a separate computer for every
application I run. Jeeez louise! Thanks for the info…..back to
the drawing board.
I have an ATI ultra pro in my machine which will run in 24 bits at
800×600 in windows. It's much better than the atvista or targa since
they are both fairly low res. The ATI will also run at 16 bit at
1024×768. Basically you should look for a 24 bit super vga card.
Most seem to work great, I'm real happy with mine, I use photoshop
with it quite a bit.
Yann,
Thanks for the response. I think your suggestion will ultimately prove to be
the winning solution. Methinks that the two applications are just different
enough to be incompatible. Fortunately a new SVGA board is coming and
hopefully, I will able to fool all of the people all of the time! ha-ha!
Thanks again,
Michael
If you have the money for the Vista, maybe you should sell it and buy the new
Targa 2000. Now the guys from Indianapolis are starting to talk serious (again
🙂 I just have got the new MGA-2 PCI and it is impressive.
ana /krazy images
Thanks for the info. Therein lies the rub…we have all BUT about
$900 of the loot for the ATVista. I've been seeing lots of interest
in the new Truevision board. Do you happen to know if it's
comparably priced? Does it have a matching resolution to the ATVista
(e.g. 756x486x32)? I sure don't want to take a big financial plunge
for a vista board if there's something that works just as well and
doesn't cost a lot more. Thanks for keeping me informed.
The Targa 2000 cost $6,000. But with 20MB and the things it is capable to do…
well, I really think that it is a good price. But that's my opinion 🙂 You can
download the specs from the Truevision forum.
ana /krazy images
Dear ana,
J, M, and J. $6000.00!!!!! For that kind of money, I would half expect it to
make toast and sort socks. Just for the thrill, I'll download the specs (sort
of like sending away for the Rolls catalog just to see your name on the mailing
label)
In a totally unrelated matter, I saw an interesting note you penned last week
which I meant to respond to-apropos of the Great Hall of Dinosaurs. Yes, I am
referring to all those super-duper latest greatest wunderware programs that In
their day, were definitely the nazz.
It's really quite sad in a way, to watch how quickly must-haves become slow
footed relics. When I first saw Targa Tips, (many years ago) it was just aces.
Nobody could come close. Same with Lumena. It seemed like the only practical
solution for high turnover post production work in PCVille.
The sad truth, of course, is that after they came out, the authors just kind of
figured they would stand still and rejoice in all that cash they were awash in.
Why change anything? Who could do better? Why attempt to make it any better?
The few times I have had to make desperation calls to Time Arts have
consistently resulted in their amazement that anyone would question anything in
the software. In the meantime, along came Fractal Painter, Fauve Matisse,
Aldus, et al. Are these just little davids cowering in the shadow of the
Truevision Goliath? I think not. It will, indeed, be interesting to note the
first time someone utters the phrase, "Fractal Paint? That old thing?"
For anyone who thinks this folly, talk to someone who wrote out a check for
$400,000.00 for a Bosch FGS4000 just a few years ago. Can you even conceive
what $400 grand could buy these days?
just a thought.
Always the best,
Michael
Michael,
The things is that the team behind Painter is as outstanding as the Yosters
behind 3DS. And with X3 coming _soon_ and X4 on the horizon (which will be the
real 3.0 version of Painter), we will have Painter for a long time. Hopefully
until X17 for the AXP processor 🙂
X3 will be a continuation of ColorStudio to be integrated in Painter with all
the 3d and animation stuff -or at least that is what Laurie says. I have my
doubts 🙂
The Targa 2000 is by no mean overprized. I think that it do stuffed eggs and
comes with a driver for Ed Kellerman too.
ana /krazy images
What's this about painter? what is X3 and/or X4? You have piqued my interest
and now I must know:)
ana,
Driving Ed Hellerman….do I get to be the chauffeur or the cook? Mehaps you're
right about Truevision. I suffered through Lyon-Lamb, and all the Dubnerians,
and many more too numerous to list. I realize that wonderful new applications
like Painter are not designed to be heavy duty production tools in TV and Post
applications but they are certainly a wonderful new set of colors on this old
guy's palette.
I don't have X2 yet and honestly don't exactly understand what it is. If you
would be good enough to spend a dime and fill me in, it would be helpful.
And yes, I realize this IS the asoft forum but what goes 'round, comes 'round.
There are precious few souls with the vision, talent, energy, and determination
to do this crazy craft so more power to us for sharing.
keep drawing.
Michael
PMJI here, but if you want an image editing program that is designed
to work with a TARGA+ or an ATVista the you should check out Ron
Scott's HIREZ QFX. This is image editing software par excellance
written for the adapters mentioned above.
I've heard nothing but fantastic comments on ron scott's stuff. I've
not seen one in captivity but appreciate your responding. I'll see
if it's possible to have a look at it. Seems like Truevision should
change its name to Mastodons inc.
Michael:
QFX really shines when it comes to jamming LARGE (70Mb+) image files.
>> Seems like Truevision should change its name to Mastodons inc.
I must have missed something, where did this comment come from?
Michael B.
>>Truevision should change its name to Mastodons inc.<<
Perhaps because so much of its current line of technology is getting
outdated. On the other hand, their products like the ATVista have no
real parrallel in videographics, and we all know how popular and
important they are in the industry.
I doubt Truevision will become extinct since they already have a huge
market share and still advance state of the art technology. I don't
think they understood they were standing on top of Mt. Saint Helens
just before the Video Graphics Adapter market exploded. They are
aloof to us little upstarts and probably more used to dealing with
Broadcast Engineers and TV Stations. I sound like I am making
excuses for them which I am not.
Truevision gets my goat I have to admit. You sure don't see real
debate taking place on their forum. I wish we could find a great
video card that did DOS and Windows in 24bit at 1024×768. 1280×1024
would be better but then I would have to buy a bigger Monitor. Pshaw!
I think the Matrox MGA will fit the bill soon. The current caveat, of course
(and it's a huuuuuuggggeeee one <g>) is poor 3DS support, but Vibrant claims it
is their highest priority to straighten that out asap. The MGA and MGAII do up
to 1280×1024 at 24bits, and come with feature connectors for interlaced (a la
NTSC) output boards.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Sorry I have been so outa touch lately, but we have had a TON going on
here. Good stuff dealing with the Mechanical products (Designer IS
SHIPPING now!). I did glean one thing from your message that I must
clarify…
>> The MGA and MGAII do up to 1280×1024 at 24bits <<
I received my 4Mb PCI MGAII today, and inspite of a bad ram chip in
the fourth meg (aaarrrggghhh) the card is INCREDIBLE. Anyone doing
_any_ windows work should definitely consider one of these. But the
point of this response is to clarify one thing, the 4Mb MGAII _WILL
NOT_ do 1280x1024x24bit. It will do 1152x882x24bit, 1280x1024x15bit
and 1600x1200x15bit. The lack of 24bit support at 1280 was a real
shocker for me, as all their literature and spec sheets show this.
However, the 15bit (32,000 color) support at 1600×1200 is pretty
nice. I have it hooked to an IDEK VisionMaster 8221 and the package
is really sweet.
>> … is poor 3DS support <<
I agree, and I am awaiting Vibrants response. (Pleading is a better phrase!)
Hey, I'm back in full force,
Chuck
Nice to see you back, Chuck.
Hmmm… disappointing about no 24bit at 1280×1024. I was led to believe by
Matrox that 4 megs means 1280×1024.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
Well I was both disapointed and surprised by the card. Sure the lack of 24Bit
at 1280×1024 is depressing, but the addition of 15bit (32,000 color) support at
1600×1200 was a _very_ pleasant surprise.
Chuck
Chuck:
I got your e-mail. I'm getting quotes together for a DEC Pentium XL566 and I'd
like to put in it a high resolution graphics card. I'll be using the computer
for doing 3DS and lots of image editing and creation. The Matrox sounds like a
great card but I'd be interested in a lesson on which cards can support 24 bit
color at the higher resolutions like 1024 x 768 up to 1600 x 1200. To do image
editing would I regret not having the increased color depth? Would I be
satisfied with 1600 x 1200 x 15 bit? Probably a tough one to answer since
you're not me but I'm interested in your opinion.
Bob
Chuck:
What is the street cost of a 4MB MGA or MGAII pci card?
Bob
John,
The MGA-2 don't do 1280×1024 in 24 bits. They do up to 1152, but 1200 and 1600
are 16bits. You can use 8bit QCDP dithering in 1600 and you won't notice the
difference with Truecolor, even in a 21" monitor.
ana /krazy images
The dithering option is very nice. Still, it's too bad about no 1280 24bit.
They did intend that to be a feature, if I remember correctly. I wonder what
happened, or if I was just imagining it all <g>.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
Michael,
The Targa 2000 and the DVR technolgy clearly demonstrates that Truevision is
not longer the Sleeping Beauty. For a price but, like a Ferrari, all dreams
have their prices 🙂
ana /krazy images
Ana,
>>Truevision is not longer the Sleeping Beauty.
How true. But who was the prince who kissed her and woke her up? <g> Is it
any wonder that Beauty has become suspect in these days of late?
Michael B.
Are you running windows on the Targa+? Or are you painting on the VGA cards
and monitors?
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
By virtue of my uncertainty as to how to answer your question (this is
a sentence????) I'm not sure….I attempted to load the windows
driver for the ATVista, followed all of the instructions, and was
unable to make it work. In any case, since it's limited to 256
colors, it clearly is not the answer to work in high resolution. The
3dstudio machine (with Diamond Stealth and Targa+ has a 256 color vga
driver loaded but again, the only time I see full color is the output
monitor on 3dstudio (RDPADI) I feel like the two (windows paint
systems and dos 3d and paint systems) are pretty much like oil and
water.
Hopefully, this will all be a lot easier someday. Everybody will work
in 32 bit full resolution realtime applications. Won't that be
nice?!
I've probably muddied the waters with my response to you. I just don't
understand how it's possible to pay almost $6000 for two video boards and have
to paint in 256 colors.
Michael
I find it unnecessary to paint in windows on a video monitor, even though the
final output will be video. Since all the colors are going to be _relatively_
the same, I just select colors according to what's on the image to start with.
The only place I find a video monitor completely necessary is in 3D Studio,
where the images almost always originate.
I use a Matrox MGA Impression SVGA card which can display windows apps at
1024×768 at 24bit color depth on a SVGA monitor, and the redraws are lightning
fast. I find this a very pleasant working environment, and have learned to
enjoy windows (never thought I'd say that <g>) because of this card. This card
also has a feature connector for an optional "Marvel" card that will convert
the output to NTSC interlaced for video monitor viewing. I haven't gone that
route because I prefer working on the SVGA monitor (much better resolution and
color depth than a video monitor).
I use the computer with the Matrox MGA as a Windows/AutoCad/renderslave
workstation, and have it tied to the same SVGA monitor, digitizing tablet, and
keyboard as my 3DS workstation using a switchbox. This way I can paint in
windows apps like Fractal Design Painter and Photostyler, and work in 3DS at
the same time – just flip the switch, and bingo! I'm on the other machine.
I would suggest not using the ATVista for windows apps, and instead using your
SVGA card/SVGA monitor, which will give much better color depth and resolution.
If you have further questions, please feel free to call me. I'll e-mail you my
number.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
With all that glowing praise of the Matrox, you really should add that it's not
a good card for 3ds. Great Windows, lousy VGA.
– Jack
>>(Matrox is) not a good card for 3ds. Great Windows, lousy VGA.<<
Very true for the time being. My comments were in the context that it
will work fine for 3DS slave rendering since it will "support" VESA.
I do not use my MGA for 3DS other than that. Also, from what I
understand the MGAII vga chipset is much faster than the MGA high-end
cards.
John Tissavary (La Luna cie)
John,
Sounds like you have plumbed the depths on this one. I greatly
appreciate your responding. It's particularly helpful to hear from
someone who has obviously tried a number of solutions and found a
setup you're happy with. I'm getting closer and closer thanks to
good inputs like yours.
Good luck with whatever setup you choose. I think as long as you use
a current crop svga card capable of hi res, 24bit display on a good
svga monitor you'll be all set and really happy =-)
John,
Much obliged and thanks for the good wishes.
Michael /exit exit
Michael,
Just a correction – the ATVista Windows drivers works in 16-bit color
(that's 32,000 colors, not 256).
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin,
PMJI, but the there is a conflict in your message <g>. 15Bit color is 32,000
colors and 16Bit color is 65,000 colors. The information I have on the Vista
(and I'm sure Greg P will correct me if I'm wrong!) shows Windows support at
16Bit, or 65,000 colors.
Just a clarification,
Chuck
Hi Chuck,
The 16th bit on an ATVista is for alpha in 16bit mode. My experience
with using an ATVista under Windows is essentially worthless. There
is a company that had a Windoze utility for passing images from
Windoze paint programs to ATVista's through the clipboard. North
Coast Software comes to mind, but I am not sure. I think it was a
Canadian company too.
Bryce Whiteside
CF\X Image, Inc.
Bryce (and Kevin),
Thanx for the correction, and let me agree that it was one of those "weaker"
moments some of us experience sometimes! I looked it up at the office when I
got there this morning and yes, the Targa+ and Vista are actually doing 15Bit
with a 1Bit overlay.
One of those messages I wish I could have deleted,
Chuck
Chuck:
>> one of those "weaker" moments some of us experience sometimes!
Some more than others…<g,d,& r> Oh, that hurt!
Greg Pyros
Greg,
See, It;s the abuse that I miss!
Feeling a little masochistic,
Chuck
Chuck:
>> See, It's the abuse that I miss!
Well, you came to the right place!
Greg Pyros
Kevin,
Thanks for the info on the ATVista. I spent the better part of the
day attempting to load the infamous TIGA Window Drivers. I followed
the directions. The screen that appears on the TIGAMODE.EXE shows a
maximum number of colors at 256. Not to mention that I can't even get
it to work in 256. Is it possible that I have outdated window
drivers? They are dated 8/10/92.
Michael:
>> Since the Truevision products are specifically designed to be able to
>> produce full 24 bit color images, why can't the Truevision boards be
>> utilized to work with a 24 bit paint system?
Some of the best paint systems in the world work on the Truevision
products! What I think your question means is "Why can't I run
Windoze on the Truevision products", since you are referring to
programs that run only in that environment!
Programs like Hi-Res QFX, TIPS, Lumena, RIO, and even programs like
Inscriber run directly on the boards in a manner that has to be seen
to be believed!
The Targa+ series runs Windoze fine, in full color, if that is the
direction you want to go. But if you want to really see something,
call up a 4kx4k image in HiRes QFX on an AT-Vista and watch it fly!
Greg,
Thanks for responding to my message. I didn't do a very good job of
explaining my set-up to you. I am currently running Lumina 32 of the
ATVista board, and in an extreme emergency, I could crank out
something in TIPS on the Targa+. Unfortunately, neither paint
program has kept up with the times. Tips has been around forever and
it's still a very low level program. Lumina 32 is quite a bit better
but the folks at Time Arts seem to have severed themselves from the
rest of the computer art community.
They seem to have an attitude of "here it is, take it or leave it and
no, we're not interested in you little why doesn't it do this
questions." Even though I use Lumena 32 every day in TV production,
it's light years behing Fractal Painter, Fauve Matisse and other up
and comers. Admittedly, I have not seen Ron Scott's software. Maybe
it's one of those once-you-see-it you'll have to have it things. In
the meantime, it really sounds like I better build a small system
just for doing full color 2d paint work. Thanks for the input and
your usual enlightening response.
Michael:
>> Thanks for the input and your usual enlightening response.
Anytime, anytime at all!
Greg Pyros
Michael,
Just call up Ron Scott and ask for a demo disk for QFX for the ATVista
(if that's the board you're suing). The # is 713/529-5868.
Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates
Kevin,
Thanks. I'll give him a call and see what's available.
Michael