#NT Myths…
54 messages in this thread
In asking around my Metropolitan area these are some of the myths I
encountered… I post them for your entertainment and enlightment…
Myth #1 (This is my favorite)
NT won't run DOS or Windows 3.1 apps! T/F
False, NT will run all Windows programs within NT and many if not most DOS
programs. You also have the option at boot up of running DOS/Windows just like
you do now with no memory overhead.
#2 OS2 is a better DOS than DOS and a better Windows than Windows. T/F
False, NT is a better DOS, better Windows, and better OS2! It will run all of
these with Windows, DOS, and OS2 apps within NT shell.
#3 If Pigs had wings they'd Fly… T/F
True, NT is a memory Pig which with enough RAM Fly's.
#4 NT is hard to setup. T/F
False, NT is easy to setup unlike Windows or Win 95 it has been through
exaustive beta's and testing. It has the most intelligent setup of an PC based
OS to date.
#5 NT has no driver support. T/F
False, NT has extensive driver support which is included either on the CD or
floppies. None and I repeat none of my previous devices required a seperate
driver save for a PCI controller which came with its own.
#6 NT is the best kept secret in the industry. T/F
Hard to explain but True, NT is a developer's OS and is therefore the standard
by which other OS should be measured.
#7 NT is a difficult OS to learn. T/F
False, NT runs and looks just like Win 3.1 but with more features built in.
Anyone who has used 3.1 extensively will find it an easy adjustment.
#8 NT is expensive. T/F
False. If you get the NT 3.1 upgrade and follow the instructions on page 4,
you'll consider it a bargain.
#9 NT messes up you system. T/F
No, by comparison to Win 3.1 or WFW, NT is not messy at all. In fact it has
several security features that in the event of a problem will help you resolve
it.
#10 NT Workstation only integrates with NT Server or WFW in a LAN environment.
T/F
False, there are many ways to integrate it into a network, more so than any
other OS available. Netware probably being the easiest from a 3rd party vendor.
#11 Most dealers and retailers know next to nothing about NT. T/F
True and will act like there's some big mystery, and will try to sell you
everything but, and in the case of networking will try to convince you that
nothing short of a hub arrangement will work. All of which is totally bogus.
If you get it an install it, you'll be more of an expert than 99% of the people
out there and that's knowing next to nothing about it. You'll also discover
that unlike Win 3.1 or Win 3.0 its not a nightmare. You may encounter some
problems but less than I've experienced with any OS even DOS 6.0
One thing I'm not thrilled about is the password to log in, just keep it simple
and it'll become habit.
You can add to this list if you like, but I probably won't respond, favorable
or otherwise, so please don't be offended. I just popped on to post this in the
hopes that it might help.
Later…
P.S. To get the upgrade you might want to look through the classifieds for a
used copy of NT 3.1 which can be had for $50, just make sure its transferrable.
There was a whole bunch of them out there in the early days of 3.1 that MS
practically gave to anyone who asked but which were licensed at MS and are not
transferrable.
John
Thanks for the FAQ of NT! That's the kind of info/opinions I've been looking
to hear.
Thanks for taking the time.
TedB
-Ted Boardman
!^NavFont01F0007MGHHG668705
>>One thing I'm not thrilled about is the password to log in.<<
Leave the password blank when you set up, and you can just hit Enter to sign
in.
(BTW, nice write-up on NT.)
– Jack
Thanks Much Jack,
I'm having an absolutely great time with NT; which is a strange experience. Its
like chatting with an old friend who's at ease with the relationship. I just
know you guys have done a beautiful job on R5 having had NT to build on. I very
much look forward to it.
Thanks for the tip, I've been so busy checking out the rest of NT the minor
inconvience of the password didn't warrant further investigation. There's a lot
of flexibility built-in to this no-nonsense professional approach to an OS. I'm
especially pleased that they retained the DOS command line and in a much
improved form. The very best of both worlds really. And NT doesn't choke and
sputter like Win 3.1, just steady as she goes… definitely a pleasure. Feels
like sailing a yacht instead of piloting a tug boat. <g>
John
John,
Honestly, and with all my respect, that was the biggest amount of half truths
that I have ever seen posted on line. I don't know how much time you have spent
with NT, but I have been running the bloody thing since its second beta and
while I like it 110% more than Windoze 3.1, some of the things you are saying
about it will produce a resounding laugh even to the NT team members.
The fact is that you can't go arround spreading such concepts about this OS,
raising the expectations of potential buyers that may be lured to buy right now
NT just because they have read and trusted your message. I don't know where or
who has passed you this info or if it is a product of a recent adquisition and
installation of NT on your part. The problem is that I don't think this kind of
messages benefit anyone, specially if it is intended to make people confident
about NT because you fell like they have to be confident in order to guarantee
a success on R5 for NT (which is my impression). Autodesk and the Yost Group
will have enough problems trying to convince their clients that NT problems are
overweighted by NT advantages and how 3DS will be benefited from this
advantages. I am aware of the advantages of this OS but also of the problems.
I have discussed NT's excellent features in this forum a hundred times,
features that for me are OBVIOUS; remember that I was the first one promoting a
Windows NT version of 3DS from the beginning (in fact, I have been too heavy
about it sometimes). And while I was being the biggest NT for 3DS promoter in
the forum -at the same time that the Yost Group was porting 3DS to NT- you,
specifically you, and others, were the DOS defenders, the promoters of the
simple Prompt, the Pharlap extender and the useless nature of the NT operating
system. WHY? Because you didn't need NT at all. HiRes QFX wasn't NT native at
the time, as well as your other primary applications. 3DS was a DOS program and
it worked well. Why NT then? And there was I telling you and everyone else the
clear benefits of porting the software to NT, despite of the faults that were
and are part of the nature of this operating system.
But now, you have everything you need ready for NT except for 3DS which will be
available soon. You are all set and all of the sudden, NT becomes your gospel.
Good for you! It has been mine for a couple of years. BUT then, are you aware
that still, NT can't be the religion of many people out there, 3DS users
included. It can't be because they have devices with no drivers for it. It
can't be because NO, NT can't run ALL DOS programs neither ALL Windows 3.1
programs. Maybe for your DOS and Windoze programs the thing works, but the
lists are full of people reporting incompatibilities with their old and new
Win3.1 software. And while you and me and other could easily upgrade, there are
others that can't. There are others (95%???) that even don't have NT or Win32
versions of their programs available that could run at decent speeds on NT. Not
to talk about DOS programs.
The thing about NT running OS/2 programs is so misleading that I think IBM
could sue you just for that. NT only can run OS/2 programs that run in text
mode (or in other words, a couple of network and communication applications).
Besides, what's the point of running OS/2 apps if you can run Windoze or NT
apps? It is like people buying a PowerMacintosh because they can emulate
Windoze. The driver thing is simply outrageous. Why you don't get a walk over
other forums and see all the messages requesting NT support for this or that
peripheral? FOR ME, YOU and others, the thing can support anything we have, but
"this is a clone world aaaaaafter all", and there are hundreds of hardware
combinations out there. The driver support in NT compared to Windows 3.1 is
[continued in the reply]
[continued]
minimum.
Simply, NT is not the heaven you have painted here. NT could be heaven or hell
depending on your needs. For me it will be heaven because it will let my
favorite program to be ported to a serious chip like the AXP series. For others
it will be hell. As time goes by, this problems are obviously going to be
reduced and eventually, everybody will love NT, Cairo or whatever. As for now,
many people will be in stand-by mode.
Best (and not waiting for an answer)
ana /krazy images
Ana,
You're just totally biased and that's all I'm going to say.
John
I am totally biased with what, John? With the fact that the message comes from
you, with the fact that I have been promoting NT as the OS for 3DS since the
beginning of the party or with my condition of Mac owner? The only thing that
may be true could be the first option but, I am being extremely sincere with
you, this is _not_ the case.
If I am biased because of the second one, YES, I am biased (read the following
paragraph). And if I am biased becaue of the last one… well, one thing is our
Mac boxes and their role in our production flow and the other is my 3D system,
which is 3DS, regardless of the platform, being this NT, OS/2, Solaris, Linux,
OpenVMS, AIX or Irix. To be honest, I have reached a point in where my choice
of platform depends on my applications even if that means I have to change
platform each six months.
I am not biased at all, at least, not in a negative way. People that follow the
forum knows my _extremely_ positive attitude about NT but that doesn't mean
that I won't recognize the inherent problems of this operating system. Ask Gary
for all the email he has recieved from me asking for a NT version, or just go
back and re-read all my messages about NT: Wishlist item from the beginning,
the dozens of
"I-am-sure-Adesk-will-do-the-correct-thing-and-will-port-3DS-to-NT" messages or
just my romance with the DEC XL, its upgradability to Alpha and my predictions
about it as being the best system for 3DS, since it was going to be ported to
NT (when nobody knew about the port).
ana /krazy images
Ana
Could you list a few of the problems you've had with NT? I don't keep messages
on the harddrive for long, so can't check back on my machine and presume
they've scrolled from the forum.
Things like, which drivers and software have you had trouble with, thanks.
TedB
-Ted Boardman
!^NavFont01F0007MGHHGDDB7EB
Please Ted, read my message to Robert. If you are planning to buy new software,
please be sure that it is supported by the manufacturer of the product and/or
MS. As a preventive measure, try to make that the manufacturer. MS could be too
slow releasing new versions of drivers and they only support the most basic
features of the devices.
I have had many problems in the past with NT and, either because software or
hardware upgrades, they all have been solved. Keep in mind that most of this
problems were with the betas and 3.1. NT is not a beast, but it is not a field
of roses (or it is a field of roses: pretty but it could hurt 🙂 Right now, the
only thing I can't run on NT is my Polaroid SprintScan 35 and my Kodak
ColorEase PS. BUT again, all the equipment I have ever had is standard (I mean,
no clones or custom boxes) and moreless, everything has been "plug and play"
(if you can call weekend-long installations plug and play <g>).
Well, that brings me again to the first paragraph 🙂
ana /krazy images
Ana,
Thanks, that is helpful and somewhat comforting<g> I'll try giving the letter
to Bob and closer look.
TedB
-Ted Boardman
!^NavFont01F0007MGHHG5E9CA2
Ana:
John mentioned that he probably wouldn't respond to the replies to his message
but maybe you will succeed in bullying him into it.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
The problem is that I don't think this kind of messages benefit anyone,
specially if it is intended to make people confident about NT because you fell
like they have to be confident in order to guarantee a success on R5 for NT
(which is my impression).
__________________________________________________________________
I disagree completely, John's opinion (often based on practical experience) is
often far more valuable than one expressed by a person who is tied to a
product.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
remember that I was the first one promoting a Windows NT version of 3DS from
the beginning (in fact, I have been too heavy about it sometimes).
__________________________________________________________________
Sorry, if Gary's message of a few weeks back was true he had set the NT ball in
motion long before you made a peep. I'm gonna side with Gary on this one.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
And there was I telling you and everyone else the clear benefits of porting
the software to NT, despite of the faults that were and are part of the nature
of this operating system.
__________________________________________________________________
Let us hear the whole truth lest we forget how many messages you have posted
which had absolutely nothing to do with NT but everything to do with 3DS
finding its way to your Macs.
As far as driver support is concerned, the first person whom I recall
mentioning a driver incompatibility was John himself. The Truvision line was
without a plan for NT drivers for their frame buffers, John picked up on this
as being quite important just after the R5 announcement. Don't you recall
this?
I may have just a small pea of a brain lodged in my head but I wasn't about to
take a message from John as being the only words of truth on this topic. Like
your messages about how wonderful life is with a Mac, I listen and decide for
myself whether or not I believe a word.
With that why not offer the forum some useful information on the pitfalls of a
switch to NT? Which software packages are currently not available? (Yep, I've
noted a number of Photoshop plug-ins are not yet available) Which packages work
but are still flaky? Which other pieces of hardware are without NT drivers? (A
3DS user would probably want to know about digitizing tablets, CD-ROM drives,
removable media, sound cards and other frame buffers, etc.) What can you tell
us? Can you offer any facts?
Bob
Dear Robert,
Please read the whole message and don't scan throught it (because it seems that
you have been scanning the thread and not reading it -or perhaps you need more
reading comprehension or I a better english 🙂
This is insane, Robert. What's the point of this message? I know Gary was going
to port to NT before I ever first posted my first wishlist for an NT version of
3DS! Do you think I am so stupid to think that Gary acted upon my ideas about
NT? gee, you need a lobotomy if you really think that I was implying that in my
reply.
You are going to stay with Gary about what? Gary knows better than anybody what
are my cards in this game (but let's not talk about it when he is out of town).
Look Robert, I was and I am for sure the number one fan of 3DS for NT. Period.
Again, that doesn't mean that I am going to shut my mouth if someone comes with
false statements about NT. I know probably better than anyone in this forum
(except for the people that have spent the same time as me with it or NT
programmers like Gus) what the NT game is about. I have read Inside Windows NT
-which we recieved from a limited press conference along with the second NT
beta on CD- cover to cover and I have spent a couple of years playing with the
bloody thing way before anyone thought about it as a "real" OS. My husband
wrote an article about it and he recieved a ton of letters from people talking
about vaporware and his MS servant attitude (NT was not released then).
And this has nothing to do with my Macs. What is this thing about Macs? I
haven't talked about Macs in my reply about NT. YES, I have made comments about
the _personal_ convenience for ME of having 3DS in the same machine I use for
prepress work in order to save myself a few bucks and hours. That's all. This
has nothing to do with NT and my reply. Let me repeat it again so you can
recieve it loud and clear: I have been promoting 3DS on NT when other people
were fantasizing about R3 features and I will have 3DS running on _Alpha_
probably way before most people on this forum. Is that clear enough for you,
Robert?
As for John's opinion about NT, plain and simple, I frankly don't care, my
dear. John could teach me A LOT of things about video, 3DS, Matrox and Targas,
and I respect his opinions in this field for sure. But about NT, I have my own,
way longer, experience and knowledge about it.
Ah forget about it! Now I just have read your "can you offer any facts?" Facts?
Facts like John's NT Myths list? Are those the facts you want to read about?
Let me laugh for a moment -ha- What do you want to know about NT, Robert? Why
you don't go a get a trip to the NT forums here and see the problems and the
advantages for yourself? Or do you want me to do free consulting work for you?
Why you don't go back in the thread and see that I wasn't burning NT, only
making clear a few points so people won't feel disenchanted once they do the
switch. Do you have any idea of the number of whinners and crying kids that are
going to come in once 3DS for NT gets in the street? I know. It will be like
the spline thing and r4. It will suck badly, in a few words. The last thing
Adesk needs is someone raising expectations about the future OS for 3DS.
Specially someone that is so respected, as you recognize, in the forum as John.
What we need are, yes, facts, and those can't be found in John's message. Some
of them yes, but not all.
Frankly, I don't understand this messages (except that perhaps now I remember
how hurted do you feel when someone talks about Macs against PC and perhaps you
are reflecting some of your personal fears and hates against a person that
enjoys Macs as much as enjoys 3DS).
[continued in the reply]
[continued]
Thank you for reading. Hope you will find your personal karma because I am
already have found mine. As like a friend just have told me, I am going to
admire a sunset and forget about all this nonsense (although is too late for
that -I will go to sleep and watch the sun rise tomorrow). Feel free to reply
(the question is over for me, though).
ana /krazy images
Ana:
Time to reel it in and stop with the accusations. I asked a number of specific
questions of you as I have a real desire to know the answers. As I prepare
like many here for the migration to NT I was looking for some insight NOT
USELESS EMOTION. Your message has done nothing to increase my comprehension of
what difficulties are ahead. NOTHING!!
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
Please read the whole message and don't scan throught it (because it seems
that you have been scanning the thread and not reading it -or perhaps you need
more reading comprehension or I a better english 🙂
__________________________________________________________________
It is unfortunate that this text based mode of communication so often fails, it
is not, however, my comprehension that is failing in this discussion.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I know Gary was going to port to NT before I ever first posted my first
wishlist for an NT version of 3DS!
__________________________________________________________________
Your messages give an entirely different perspective as if you were the first
to think of it, you very definitely gave yourself credit where none was due.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
Look Robert, I was and I am for sure the number one fan of 3DS for NT. Period.
__________________________________________________________________
Do you have a fan club, hats, an annual outing, a funny handshake? I don't
think anyone would question your zeal and emotion on this topic but you have
exhibited the same enthusiasm for your beloved Macs. You've asked for a lot of
things, 3DS on NT is but one.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I know probably better than anyone in this forum (except for the people that
have spent the same time as me with it or NT programmers like Gus) what the NT
game is about.
__________________________________________________________________
I'll tell you what, Larry Minton expressed far more real insights than you have
on the subject. You've been highly critical but so far I'm still wanting the
details. What are the pitfalls of NT? Larry sure offered a few.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
And this has nothing to do with my Macs. What is this thing about Macs?
__________________________________________________________________
Apparently you don't recall mentioning them in your flame to John Ellis. You
brought them up (groan, yet again).
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I have been promoting 3DS on NT when other people were fantasizing about R3
features and I will have 3DS running on _Alpha_ probably way before most people
on this forum. Is that clear enough for you, Robert?
__________________________________________________________________
Actually the only thing that is really clear is your incessant self-promotion.
It is really boring. BORING! Is that clear?
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
Ah forget about it! Now I just have read your "can you offer any facts?"
Facts? Facts like John's NT Myths list? Are those the facts you want to read
about? Let me laugh for a moment -ha- What do you want to know about NT,
Robert? Why you don't go a get a trip to the NT forums here and see the
problems and the advantages for yourself? Or do you want me to do free
consulting work for you?
__________________________________________________________________
I am amazed that a simple question I posed somehow lights a fire under your
butt. Ana, your opinion flows forth like an unending stream but hardcore facts
are barely a trickle. John's message was his opinion, I never would have
confused his words to be fact and I mentioned this in my previous message quite
clearly. If you could say that Kai's Power Tools will not yet work in
Photoshop under NT, this would be an example of a fact (provided of course it
were true). This is the kind of fact I am after. Will Composer work under NT?
Will my NEC CD-ROM drive have NT compatible drivers? Will Corel Draw work
under NT? Will my Wacom tablet function? Painter? The answers to these
questions would be the kinds of FACTS that I am interested in. I don't need to
know how 'powerful' or 'robust' NT might be as many have their opinion but more
nuts and bolts like will my software and hardware function with this OS. Rather
than blast me for asking why not just say, "Sorry, I don't know"? I know, its
more fun to fry my sorry @ss.
//_______________________From your message________________________\\
Frankly, I don't understand this messages (except that perhaps now I remember
how hurted do you feel when someone talks about Macs against PC and perhaps you
are reflecting some of your personal fears and hates against a person that
enjoys Macs as much as enjoys 3DS).
__________________________________________________________________
Just to let you know how far off you are, here are a few FACTS: We currently
have 15 Dec Alpha's and one DEC xl awaiting an Alpha upgrade daughtercard. We
have 60 DEC Vaxstations and over 100 pc's. We are currently running DOS,
Windows, WFWG, OpenVMS, VMS, and did I mention that we have 5 MACS! I may not
have all of the facts on NT (we just converted our NYC office over two weeks
ago) but I am open to and knowledgeable of several operating systems. Unlike
you I have no emotional ties to my software and hardware just to the money
which has to pay for it all <BG>.
I always take your view as the 'extremist' point of view, like a 'digital
skinhead' if you will <BG> out riding the bleeding edge. I'm not quite a
'digital lemming' but I would prefer a few trailblazers to walk ahead in
certain circumstances. If there are a few folks with NT war stories I'm
willing to listen.
Bob
Bob, no way am I sticking my toes in the current thread, but was very
interested in the part of the discussion regarding DEC ALPHA. Details on R5
are being kept well under wraps, but are there opinions on whether it will run
on an ALPHA or still be tied to INTEL? It would make sense that sometime down
the road this port would be made. I'm about to purchase a new fire-breather
with NT/DOS dual boot. But I wish some hard news were available regarding
ALPHA. So, if you or anyone else wants to speculate in this highly fruitful
direction, I'm all ears. Further to this thought – Intel P6 is some sort of
hybrid CISC/RISC, how will R5 deal with that? ALPHA is RISC, sheeesh, maybe R5
has already taken this into consideration. BTW, Bob, no one should take my
loving your comment <<digital skinhead>> as taking sides. I just thing it's a
great term. Jeffrey
Jeffrey,
>> are there opinions on whether it will run on an Alpha… <<
Check the libraries on official postings regarding NT. I think that will answer
your questions.
John
Thanks John… I'm read'n, I'm read'n. Gonna put a delay on purchasing my next
system till I know more about the ALPHA compatibility. Jeffrey
Jeffrey:
Its all speculation on whether or not 3DS R5 will run on an Alpha, no official
word has been issued. Seems probable to me but I am guessing. As far as P6
goes, Intel has tried to maintain backward compatibility so far, I don't know
that they would risk altering that pattern. I'm hoping to be in a position
with the Alpha chip so that what Intel does is of little consequence to my
operation.
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
BTW, Bob, no one should take my loving your comment <<digital skinhead>> as
taking sides. I just thing it's a great term.
__________________________________________________________________
The wierd part of this NT discussion is that most of us are on the same side!
Ahh, I love the smell of Napalm in the morning…
Bob
Bob, thanks for your reply. Going directly to ALPHA would be a monster speed
move. I might just hold off on my new system purchase till word is out on this
one. GAD! Would it be too much to expect R5 to be able to utilize more than one
CPU simult? Just the thought of symetrical proc on an ALPHA at above 300mhz
makes me DISINTERGRATE WOBBLE (calm down jeffrey calm down) j
Jeff:
Here, we are looking at things a little differently as 3DS is not going to
matter much in our OS decision. We are moving to NT on Alpha's for our CADD
work. Our choice for renderers will be one that happens to work incredibly
well in this environment, MicroGDS (it was written for NT). I'm betting that
3DS will still be in my toolbox when we switch over. MicroGDS already includes
a full raytracing animation/rendering tool which we could use for most of our
needs. 3DS would be icing but isn't going to have much pull in our
're-tooling'.
Bob
Could you tell me more about MicroGDS? What is it?
Jose:
MicroGDS is a 32 bit PC CADD package which was born out of a VAX/VMS
workstation CADD system. Version 4.1 came out a few weeks ago and includes a
Raytracing renderer/animator with full texture, bump, shininess, etc. mapping
as well as a bunch of proceedural material types. The program is the best
integration of CAD and Windows on the market supporting DDE and OLE 2.0. The
program was designed for NT yet runs fine in WFWG and Windows 3.1. MicroGDS
offers both a single-user and multi-user application. The multi-user version
is exactly what I need when there are 20 people working on the same files at
the same time. There is no x-ref kludge, no need to exit the program to have
someone across the building see your updated work. One could literally have a
team of 20 people all creating a single 3D scene if you like. One could be
building walls, one building furniture, one placing trees, one creating a
ceiling, one placing colums, etc. all at the same time! Of course the same
goes for 2D. You can also open up as many files as you like at one time. So
you could snag graphics visually from any file for placing into your current
project. Currently I use the program mostly for 3D modelling but this exploits
only fraction of its abilities. Also, a nice bonus is the fact that you can
render in 2 point perspective, architects often prefer this mode. Sorry I've
rambled.
Bob
well, Bob, 3-DS is my principal application and animation is all I do. The
ideaea of all my apps running in one environment is probably too much to ask.
But it would be worth the performance if ALPHA and R5 were compatible. Then I
would run whatever apps I could on that system, and whatever else on my current
system. I'm just in the dark about compatible networking in such a scenario.
Looks like I'll have a bit to learn come winter. At any rate, holding off till
I hear tangible facts about what's gonna run. I don't even know what the
forecast is regarding P6. Will P6 run all previous apps? I was ready to plunk
down some cash for a P5120 and want some answers… that cash is itch'n to be
spent. J
Jeff:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
well, Bob, 3-DS is my principal application and animation is all I do.
__________________________________________________________________
I wear too many hats, I envy you as you get to do only the fun stuff.
A dual-boot mode could get you running NT ahead of 3DS R5. I'm going to get my
feet wet before R5. FWIW, I haven't yet heard of an NT compatible software
package which was not compiled for the Alpha chip. The versions don't always
ship on the same day but it would be an absolute shock if R5 didn't get
compiled for the Alpha. Actually, its completely inconceivable.
The P6 will be quick (2x the p5 100, right?) but when will it come to market?
Will it have P5 like math errors? A possible strategy for you is one that Ana
suggested a while back. You could get a dual processor motherboard version of
the DEC Celebris. It would come to you now with one P5 100 (maybe 120?) chip
with the option of adding another P5 chip or swapping for a single DEC Alpha
chip. This would fulfill your immediate need and give you an upgrade path for
the future. Note that the Alpha upgrade chip will cost +/- $2,500 — not cheap.
Bob
Robert,
I am simply not going to enumerate all the problems that I have experimented or
that other people have experimented with the OS. Each person has their own
setups and each person will have different difficulties to solve in the OS
swap. It is krazy to want me to list all the problems I have experimented
(because many of them are outdated and solved) or those I have read about over
the NT forum. That's what I sent you there. You will have plenty of nightmares,
as well as sweet dreams. It is the nature of the PC world.
I will only use NT for 3DS exclusively. All the other applications that I want
to use run native on my PowerMacs and I simply don't care about them on the PC
(besides, the port to NT means to me a change to Alpha, an NONE of the
applications I use under the PC now are Alpha native: So no Painter, Pagemaker,
Quark, Illustrator or Photoshop there). Some of my peripherals, like the
Polaroid SprintScan 35 or the Kodak ColorEase, simply won't run on NT. I
personally never have had problems with NT at the drive subsystem level, only
with the beta and a SCSI drive (solved with a new Adaptec adapter) I have had
TONS of problems on the video side, and I still have to see a decent 24bit
video driver for NT. Because all the stuff I use is standard, and many
makeityourself clone types here will call it too expensive, I can say that NT
is a smooth kittie. I only have runned NT on Compaqs and lately on the XLs.
Both brands have strong support built in the OS. But you have to keep in mind
that there are so many combinations out there that is impossible even for the
mighty MS to keep track of them.
Again, I never have said that NT is worthless or anything like that! You and
John seem to think that I have said that and inmediatly have made nonsense
links with previous post about my thoughts about PowerMacs. This is a stupid
point to make and you know it.
People should be aware that there could be problems in the switching and that
life with NT is not the fairy tale that John has told us to be. If you don't
trust me, wait until 3DSr5 gets released and you will tell me the amount of
traffic that is going to generate then.
ana /krazy images
>> If you don't trust me, wait until 3DSr5 gets released and you will
>> tell me the amount of traffic that is going to generate then.
Ana, Anyone could speculate that. Of course additional traffic is going to be
generated. This is a given, so stop using it as some sort of "I-told-you-so"
that you can reference later. I spent about 4 years as a hardware technician
and I can tell you that most peoples complaints about hardware compatibility
issues are due to their lack of understanding. I've had customers complaining
that they can't get studio to run when they don't even know what kind of video
card they own. I know this is a simplistic example, and I'm not trying to imply
that you don't know what you're doing. I'm merely suggesting that many problems
could be avoided if people would either take the time to really figure out
their problem, or just hire a professional to do it. Also, drivers are always
going to be a pain. For any operating system. That's why many dealers will only
sell products they know work. If you stick with well established manufacturers
you'll always be able to get drivers. On an aside, I haven't even put on NT on
my PC yet. I'm planning on buying it this week. Tomorrow hopefully. This is
just because of JohnE's hot tip of the day. 🙂 I'll be amazed if everything
goes as smoothly as everyone says it will. My system is about as maxed out as
it gets and I _never_ have problems running DOS/ WFW 3.11. Really. I'll let you
know what I think of it. Unbiased.
DM <PFF> …….Preparing For Flaming. <BG>
David,
That's exactly the reason I am warning people here. I am only saying that NT
new users will find both pleasant and displeasant surprises on their ways
depending on many factors such as current equipment and personal knowledge. I
am not using this as a "I-told-you-so" for later. I don't want to say I told
you so and that's why I am trying to clarify that NT is not going to be a fairy
tale for everybody, specially those customers that doesn't know what card they
have you are talking about.
For Nth time, my point here is not to destroy the validity of NT as the OS for
3DS. My objective here is to keep some people of posting comments that could
elevate people expectations about a product or a product related to a product.
Instead of doing damage control later, why don't try to make our way to the
future step by step, out of National Enquirer's Myths Lists? Any marketer will
tell you that is better to keep things clear and expectations low. Many of the
things that John has said are simply not 100% true and they ignore the present
and future situations in which new 3DS for NT users are going to get involved.
This is going to be a delicate moment for 3DS that we all hope will pass
successfuly, so let's try to calm down and save our energies for the final
release, OK? 🙂
ana /krazy images
Point taken Ana. See my E-mail.
DM
Ana:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I will only use NT for 3DS exclusively. All the other applications that I want
to use run native on my PowerMacs and I simply don't care about them on the PC
__________________________________________________________________
Ah, most of us schlubs get to have only one computer on our desks, so it almost
invariably must perform all tasks. You are correct that there are many
hardware combinations but there are a number of products in fairly common usage
amongs 3DS users. I'm just trying to find out if NT will support some of these
products, Mark Yankee has already quelled a couple of my fears. Your message
offers more insights on possible trouble spots with NT, it may take time but I
have confidence in this OS as being one I will be using for a long time.
Bob
I thought you had a couple of hundreds of Alphas sitting arround <g> Just
kidding. I will be running NT as soon as 3DS don't get ported to something
faster. Since the Alpha/NT combination will be the fastest for a long long long
time, and also the most price effective, I will be running it for exactly the
same period.
ana /krazy images
Anna:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I thought you had a couple of hundreds of Alphas sitting arround <g> Just
kidding. __________________________________________________________________
In my dreams! BTW, I just rechecked with DEC about the daughtercard 233mhz
Alpha chip upgrade for the DEC xl pc's, cost is still about $2500. I'm sure a
vendor will cut a deal but that's a huge chunk of change. The guy on the phone
sort of alluded to a summertime price drop and some new product out at that
time. I know this is how rumors start so I wouldn't put much creedence in it
until some official corroboration can be obtained.
Bob
Hopefuly, by the time 3DS for Alpha cames out prices will be way down.
ana /krazy images
Bob,
Thanks for saying it all. I would have gotten out of line.
I'm going to open a new line of communication here, if _someone_ will leave us
alone. I did install NT 3.5 for a while just to see how it worked. I needed
the drive space back for a Photoshop swapdisk, so I removed it a few days
later. What I remember… Photoshop 3.0 worked. CorelDRAW! 5.0 worked.
Novell Netware eventually worked. The Bernoulli 90 drive in that particular
machine… HA. It barely works in DOS.<g>
Basically, I got what I needed. I wanted to prove to myself, that when the
time comes, I would not be completely out in the cold.
I did have trouble with an NCR PCI SCSI controller for one of my machines. It
just wouldn't find it during installation. One of these days, I'll revisit the
task of getting up and running. We're an architectural firm as well, so our
work pace is not left up to the lowly animator.
Thanks again for fending off the needless banter.
Later,
Darrin Sabin
>>I did have trouble with an NCR PCI SCSI controller for one of my machines.
PMJI Darrin, but are you by chance running a DEC XL? Just wondering since this
is what I am running and I will be installing NT soon…
-Tyler
FYI, Tyler, WinNT saw the NCR SCSI system on my DEC pcXL just fine.
What it didn't want to do is install NT over a completely FAT partitioned SCSI
hard drive. I reformated, and repartioned leaving an un-partitioned space for
NT and everything was fine.
FWIW,
-Alan
>>I reformated, and repartioned leaving an un-partitioned space for NT and
everything was fine.
Great, this jewel will probably save me hours. Thanks a bunch, Alan.
You're welcome, Tyler. I hope everything works out for you.
-Alan
Darrin:
/_______________________From your message________________________\\
I did have trouble with an NCR PCI SCSI controller for one of my machines.
__________________________________________________________________
Yikes, of course I have an NCR PCI SCSI card. 🙁 After I get my next project
out the door I think I will have the opportunity to take the NT plunge.
Bob
Bob,
<< CD-ROM drives >>
If the CD-ROM drive is a SCSI one hooked up to a Windows NT supported SCS card
it will work fine.
<< removable media >>
Both of Iomega's Bernoulli Transportable 90 and 150 drives are supported. As
for SyQuest drives the 44mb and 88mb models are supported. I have been using
both the 44mb and the 105mb SyQuest drives under Win NT with no problems.
Mark
Mark:
Thanks for your message, exactly the kind of info that I was in need of.
You've made my day.
Bob
Oh, you want to talk about NT, huh? <g> OK, let's talk about my last four
weeks at the office.
Under recommendation of the guy who I dumped responsibility for all computers
on, 3 of us switched from os/2 to nt. Our new file server is going to be an nt
server, and right now os/2 can't talk to it.
Got in 3 new 90's with 32 meg ram, 1 gig IDE drives. One of us wanted to set
up as dual boot, couldn't do it. Kept on crashing during install. About 2
weeks later, we found a message in an internet newslist which described a
solution. Apperently was a conflict between the CD-ROM driver and large IDE
drives. He's now up and running, but has held on to his old computer just in
case.
I set mine up using NTFS as opposed to FAT. Install went well, and then later
I accidently deleted a file that NT wanted. Next reboot – blue screen. OK,
boot from floppy and repair the damage. Nope, can't do. There is no such
thing as an NT boot floppy. Violates security. Re-install, run emergency
repair disk (you have updated yours to reflect all your current registry
information, haven't you?).
OK, I'm back up and running again. Let's run a dos program that uses SVGA or
extended text modes. Nope, can't do it. Violates security, can't have direct
access to hardware.
Oh well, at least we have our NT server. The data is safe, being backed up on
a 4mm tape drive. What's that, we are getting system errors during our backup?
3 PCI scsi cards later, we find one that is actually compatible with NT.
Whew, all of us are now up and running, and the server is happy to. Except 2
of us, and probably the third, are going back to os/2. Too many of the
programs we need to run, or strongly prefer over the windows version, required
extended text mode or SVGA. A version of os/2 that talks to our new server is
suppose to be out soon, until then we'll just use our old server. I figure
this experience has cost the company about $25k time-wise.
So couldn't we have called Microsoft tech support for help? Well it costs $150
(or is it $250?) per incident for tech support. I understand they have just
set up a 900 number for support, something like $2.50 per minute, which should
help. There is an NT forum on CIS, but actual support from Microsoft there is
pretty hit and miss. Not enough support people for the volume of traffic,
although additional MS people donate their time to help answer questions.
NT is somewhat in the same boat as os/2 in terms of drivers – there isn't as
much demand for NT as there is for Windows, so companies don't write drivers.
I don't really care which operating system I use, as long as I can get my work
done. I'm not crazy about os/2 either, but it allows me to do what I need to
do at this time.
Recommendations: take it slow and measured, keep your emergency repair disks up
to date, start collecting messages from the NT forum so you can build a
database of fixes to common problems, consider staying with FAT until you are
comfortable, and remember that C2 security is supposed to make you feel safe.
PS: there is nothing like that feeling you have when after you've done an
emergency repair and discover that you can't log onto your own machine. Your
old password just won't work. Hint: just hit return when it asks for the
password!
LAM
>>>Oh, you want to talk about NT, huh? <g> OK, let's talk about my last four
weeks at the office.<<<
>>>Whew, all of us are now up and running, and the server is happy to. Except
2 of us, and probably the third, are going back to os/2. Too many of the
programs we need to run, or strongly prefer over the windows version, required
extended text mode or SVGA. A version of os/2 that talks to our new server is
suppose to be out soon, until then we'll just use our old server. I figure
this experience has cost the company about $25k time-wise.<<<
I can empathize with your problems switching to NT, but I'm not suprised, from
your message it sounds like you didn't spend enough time investigating before
you made the switch. It also sounds like you expected the switch to take little
time.
Unless your company has a IS person or can afford to hire a consultant you will
probably have problems.
>>>NT is somewhat in the same boat as os/2 in terms of drivers – there isn't as
much demand for NT as there is for Windows, so companies don't write
drivers.<<<
My experience with NT 3.5 has been much better than OS/2 Warp, or DOS/Windows
3.1. NT found all the hardware in our system (7 disk CD-Changer, SCSI, DAT,
video, etc.) without problems. Knowing NT came from MicroSoft my hopes weren't
that high, I was very pleased with the setup. My partner has OS/2 Warp
installed for the last 6 months, still hasn't got his Adaptec 2940 SCSI or
AWE32 soundcard to work under OS/2. He has a NEC 4Xi CD-ROM that won't work
because the SCSI isn't installed.
I'm sure there are problems with both OS's, and if you are a guru in OS/2 you
probably don't have problems with installation. The big point you make is that
the days of booting a system from a single floppy are going away.
I'll agree with you with regards to not doing enough investigation. But then
again, I can honestly say that I've never met an NT guru. And I still haven't
found a good source of info concerning NT. As an example, it was basically a
consensus of about 3 or 4 of us in the winnt forum that it is a NT limitation,
rather than a device driver limitation, that prevents you from running SVGA
modes in full screen sessions. Through our whole string of messages, never
once heard a word from MS. So we could be wrong. Who knows? Not us. What
irked me about the whole deal was the total inability to find information
concerning NT.
I hope ADesk plans on setting up a section in the forum just to deal with
helping people get NT running. Since ACAD runs under NT (right(?)), they have
had to deal with it before. Hopefully those involved then will be giving input
on this go around.
Good info, John!
If I were going to buy NT, which is preferable, the "server" or the
"workstation" version of NT?
Can you still run Lantastic on NT? With either NT version or only the server
version?
Thanks,
Alec Jason
Alec,
>> If I were going to buy NT, which is preferable <<
The Workstation version does have limited Server capabilities and yes you can
run Lantastic as a Client to it. I'd recommend getting a Workstation version as
you're going to need one anyway, read everything you can, and look at the
options as far as Lantastic goes. SMB/NTP look like the best options but there
are many and are really dependent on so many factors. I'd seek the advice of a
professional networker if you're at all in doubt about where to go and how to
build your system up.
John
John, I don't know if this was your intent or simply my machine screwing up,
but it had me busting a gut. From your NT description:
>> #9 NT messes up yousystem. TF
>>
>> o, b coparso rF,N sntmsy t ll nfc tha
>> eelscrt etrstht nteeeto rbe ilhl o eov
>> t#1 N oryittswt TSre rWF i LNevrnmn.
>> /Fls,teeaemn ast ntgrt noantok oesothnay
>> te Svialrbbybigte m r at edr
>>
>> #1 os elr ndrealr ko nx ontigabu T /Tu n il c iethres om i yse r osl o
>> ohn soto u ragmn wllwok l fwhchi oal ou.
You must be running NT, eh?
– Dave
David,
Must be your machine, it came through fine for everyone else…
Maybe it IS time for an upgrade? <G>
John
>> Must be your machine, it came through fine for everyone else…
>> Maybe it IS time for an upgrade? <G>
He, He. The synchronicity of the glitch was simply PERFECT. I assume a noisy
phone line botched the message and scrambled a couple together. I was laughing
out loud at where it occured. Take care and keep cool.
– Dave
Dave,
>> Take care and keep cool. <<
You got it! I'm having way too much fun with NT to let anything spoil it. Its
like taking a Z up into the mountains and jamming through the corners. You get
that same sense of control. It cruises and I love it. Thanks for the thought.
John
>#8 NT is expensive. T/F > >False. If you get the NT 3.1 upgrade and follow the
instructions on page 4, >you'll consider it a bargain.
I have just moved over to the PC (Pentium-100) and have MS-DOS & Windows 3.1. I
am going to move to NT so I can run 32 bit apps much faster. Can I simply
upgrade Windows 3.1 to NT or do I have to go out and buy NT outright?
>> Can I simply upgrade Windows 3.1 to NT. <<
Anthony,
The answer is no, you can't upgrade from Windows 3.1 to NT which to me is
rediculous. The product is fantastic. The marketing/sales strategy stinks. My
personal solution was to buy a used copy of Win NT 3.1 and upgrade that even
though I didn't need the paperwork to do so.
I'm none to happy about it, and that's the last I'll comment on it. All I can
say is do the right thing, even though its frustrating and maddening.
John