#Blue Ribbon – Bah Humbug
28 messages in this thread
Blue Ribbon SoundWorks, Ltd. is in the doghouse as far as I am concerned.
Recently I bought Bars & Pipes Professional 2.0 from someone through a
CompuServe classified ad for $133.00. That seemed a reasonable price
since it is listed in ads for mailorder as low as $218.00. He explained
that he had had it less than 3 months and was switching to a Windows
environment.
He sent a letter transfering all of his rights to the program to me. I
sent his letter to Blue Ribbon asking that the registration be transfered
to my name. But, this was not sufficient. I heard from Jacco van
Zandwijk in Customer Support that it is Blue Ribbon's policy that I must
pay a $99.00 "transfer-fee" to become the registered owner. I was taken
aback by this request. You must have very expensive secretaries to cost
that much to change a name in a database.
Maybe I am too naive. But, I think Blue Ribbon SoundWorks is ripping me
off. I try to register all of the software that I buy so that I have a
legal copy and can keep up with the updates. It doesn't feel right to me
to be using software registered to someone else. I haven't bought much
from classified ads. I thought this would be a good way to start working
with Blue Ribbon's products. I had even considered buying SuperJam and
One-Stop Music Shop. But,I am having second thoughts about your company.
John-
I'm a bit surprised that you ran into this sort of thing at BRS. To date,
I've found them far more reasonable than the average vendor. I'd suggest
pursuing this in private with Melissa or Todor, with the expectation that
they'll see the problem as such and resolve it. (I *think* it's still OK
to say I sent ya…) They *are* growing rapidly, and sometimes hiccups can
occur in a company's "corporate culture" at such times. Give 'em a break,
and see what happens.
Good luck in any event-
Bob
John,
While I can certainly understand your frustration, please let me say
this in Blue Ribbon's defense. First and foremost, I can vouch for their
utmost honesty, integrity, and commitment to the Amiga market. They are
considered one of the better Amiga vendors by most people. Whenever I buy
used software, I always call the vendor first to see what their transfer
policy is. Some vendors don't allow transfers at all, some charge a fee,
and others transfer ownership for free. Recently, I purchased used
software and the vendor said there was a transfer fee. I was able to get
the seller to take the cost of the transfer fee off the purchase price.
Also, Blue Ribbon used to allow free transfer of ownership. However,
there are a number of reasons behind Blue Ribbon's new policy. First, if
you read the warranty card, I believe it says it only entitles the
original owner to 90 days of free tech support. There is a fee for
continued tech support after the 90 day period. Many users call many times
during the 90 days. Then if they eventually sell the program, the new
purchaser calls many times for tech support. Then if that person sells the
program, the next purchaser calls, etc.
Second, Blue Ribbon offers discounts on their software to prior owners
of Blue Ribbon products. Some prior owners were buying new Blue Ribbon
software at discount prices and then selling their old Blue Ribbon
software. (The software that entitled them to the discount in the first
place). Then the new purchasers would register the older software and
shortly thereafter buy the new software also at a discount. I think Blue
Ribbon instituted their transfer policy in order to circumvent this, but I
don't know how successful the policy has been.
Anyway, see what Adam has to say. He has to abide by company policy. If
you are not satisfied with that policy, then request to speak to Melissa
and she will help you.
Good luck.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Dom,
Thank you for your insight. I couldn't see any reason for a transfer fee
other than a penalty for buying used software, so you would want to buy
new. You made some good points. But Bars & Pipes Pro 2.0 is not very
many months old. There should be some easy way to transfer ownership of a
new program.
It seems from reviews and comments that Blue Ribbon is a good company.
However, I needed to vent my frustration at a $99 transfer fee. I have
not bought much used software. I see you have to consider another hidden
cost. You learn something every day.
John
John,
Well good luck to you and I hope it all works out. I think you'll enjoy
using B&P Pro!
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Dear John,
I'm pleased to hear your thoughts on The Blue Ribbon SoundWorks. It's
critically important that we hear both the praise and the criticisms.
We instigated the Licensee Transfer Fee to combat the incessant amount of
piracy that has taken place recently in the Amiga marketplace. (It seems to be
a problem that's getting worse and worse, I'm afraid.)
Our users were selling their 1.0 version of Bars&Pipes Pro, then upgrading to
2.0. Only weeks later, the people who bought the used copies were trying to
upgrade, as well. Allowing "double-upgrades" would put a tremendous strain on
our ability to serve our customers.
We do not just change your name in our database. We offer you superior
support, special upgrades not otherwise available, a subscription to Quarter
Notes, exclusive purchase opportunities, free use of our BBS and more.
When we sell an original copy, we receive financial remuneration which allows
us to develop and maintain these services. However, when you pay a private
user for his copy of our software. we do not receive a penny more. Yet, you
expect us to invest our resources to train and support you as a user. This
does not make moral or financial sense.
We are committed to the Amiga marketplace when other companies are rapidly
abandoning it. Our committment to you is furthered by your to us.
Thanks for your understanding.
Sincerely,
Melissa Jordan Grey
President
Melissa,
Thank you for your note. I appreciate your personal answer and views
on the subject. It is a good sign when the company president cares
enough to take time to answer a critism herself.
I abhor software piracy. I only want to use legal software that is
registered to me. I'm sorry to hear your assessment that piracy is
getting worse and worse. But, I am still not sure how your Licensee
Transfer Fee will combat incessant piracy.
I did not buy version 1.0 of Bars & Pipes Pro and try to
"double-upgrade".
I bought the latest version, 2.0, which the owner had for less than
3 months and no longer planned to use. All I am asking is that you
record the fact that he no longer owns your software and that I do.
It is admirable that you sell a package of support and services along
with each piece of excellent software. It shows that you are
committed to maintaining a topnotch product.
I am not asking for extra services from you. You receive financial
remuneration for each original copy you sell. I do not want original
copy services. I only want to assume the remaining services on this
copy. The original owner relinquished his ownership of those
services when he wrote transfering all rights to the software to me.
If I have to pay a $99 transfer fee to be listed as the registered
owner instead of the person who sold it to me, you are benefiting
twice from one copy of software; and there still would only be one
registered owner getting your support.
It would seem to me that anyone buying the latest version of used
software would be buying the future upgrade potential and that the
person selling would be forfeiting it. Other software companies use
different methods to protect against "double-upgrades". When someone
buys their software they receive a registration or user number. If
they upgrade, they don't get a new registration number, but just
continue to have the same user number, now with the newer version.
I have been using an Amiga for several years. This is the first time I
have gotten involved with used software. So, the transfer process is new
to me. I do appreciate your commitment to the Amiga. Keep up the good
work.
Thank you for your time and attention.
Sincerely,
John R. Baird, M.D.
John-
Well stated. It's *always* good to see viewpoints expressed in an
articulate, well-reasoned, and objective manner. I hope you remain an
active participant in both MIDIFORUM and Blue Ribbon Software
discussions!
Bob
You're absolutely right; I bought a used copy of ProPage 1.1 several years
ago, transferred the registration rights to my name and have dumped
several hundred dollars since then upon Gold Disk for upgrades. They made
money on me and didn't charge any changeover fee. I do see what Blue
Ribbon is trying to accomplish, but perhaps as you suggest it is
counterproductive.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
John:
I agree with what you say but I think you also need to look at it from
another side.
Say you buy a complex product such as BarsPipes and you need to ring up
five times to sort out problems. After a few months most of the problems
are ironed out and there won't be many more calls. If the product is then
sold on, then the producers will have to provide back up for a whole new
learning curve starting from scratch.
I wonder how many times the product would need to be resold before the
costs of service back up exceed the profits?
I'm not arguing with the good points you raised, but I just thought that
there was also a good point from the other side.
Greg
Greg,
You bring up a good point concerning free phone consultations for software
support. It would be unreasonable to expect to be taught about a program
talking to customer support. That is what good manuals are for. But, I
imagine problems will always arise adapting a program to the various
hardware and software configurations that users will have. Depending on
the complexity of the program and how easily it adapts to different
configurations, a company could get few or many calls.
Some companies offer free support. Some large ones even have 800 numbers
for support. But, it does seem reasonable to offer free support for a
period of time, such as 90 days, and then charge for calls after that. I
realize that a company only makes money from the first time that a copy of
their software is sold. If it is resold there could be several ways for a
company to handle registration. Free phone support, even for 90 days,
could cost a certain transfer fee. Minimal support, such as charging for
each phone call, could cost nothing, or a small fee to change the
database.
The problem of registering older versions of software (and trying to
"double-upgrade") could be approached another way. If someone registered
a transfer of ownership for the newest version of a program, the name
could just be changed since the previous owner would loose the upgrade
potential. Someone transfering an older version could be required to
upgrade to the newest version if they want to be registered.
If the company's database is good enough, they could keep track of the
upgrade status of older versions. Then if someone wants to transfer
ownership of an older version they could, if the upgrade potential had not
been used yet. The previous owner would loose the ability to upgrade.
One way of doing this is giving each user a registration number. As they
upgrade, the registration number stays the same, just the version number
changes. If they sell their software, the number goes with the transfer
and they couldn't "double-upgrade".
Another method to avoid "double-upgrades" is to require the return of
previous version disks or a manual cover for an upgrade. Then only one
upgrade could be done.
This was a long explanation. No matter how it is done, I would think the
software companies would like to know who is using their products so they
can sell them more in the future.
John
Users demand technical support, yet don't really want to pay for it. If a
cheap tech support person costs $50K a year in salary and overhead, and even if
you keep them busy 2000 hours a year, that's still $25 an hour. If the profit
per software sale is $25, which is what it might be on a product you bought for
$100, then the company loses the profit on your sale not long after your first
call to tech support. Obviously, not everyone calls, not everyone requires
more than a few minutes' help, and a good manual helps a lot… but support
isn't cheap, especially if you want someone who knowswhat they're talking
about.
You make a good point about tech. support. Part of a company's
reputation rests on their tech support. Reviewers and users often
comment about how friendly and helpful (or unfriendly and unhelpful)
a company is when they call. I personally have only called a company
a couple of times. That was to report bugs that bothered me and may
not have been reported by others. But, I imagine users do call a
fair amount, especially if they are not technically inclined or have
a local dealer or users group to rely on.
Computer software must be a tough business to be in. Some make it
big, but the profit margins must be small if you don't have a large
market and if you don't do things just right.
I started this thread discussing transfer fees for registering used
software. I never have tried to register a used piece of software
before. So I was suprised when I found out from Blue Ribbon Software
that I had to pay $99 to register a 3 month old copy of Bars & Pipes
Professional 2.0 that I bought from someone. That seemed excessive
when I could buy the program from a mailorder place for $218.
Do you charge a transfer fee to register a new owner for a piece of
your software that is less than 6 months old? Do you have any idea
what the general policy of Amiga software companies is on registering
used software?
We don't charge any sort of a transfer fee, we just accept the new
registration. We have caught people trying to sell their old versions to
someone else, while upgrading to newer versions at the same time.
The company is probably making as much money on your upgrade as on that mail
order sale – actually, more in the long run, because your transfer/upgrade
already counted as one sale sometime in the past. If it's a $300 retail, the
distributor might be paying $120 for it.
"tech support person costs $50K a year" ?!?!?!?!?! Boy, I was *REALLY*
getting shafted by CBM!!!! Ok, show me ANY Amiga support person getting an
over $30k!! I agree with your sentiments but I think your numbers might be
a bit off.. either that or I'm gunna FAX you a resume as soon as I log
off!!! 😉
Vernon Graner
X-Regional Product Specialist
X-Commodore Business Machines
Austin Texas
ps: Whats your FAX number? 🙂
-=>Flving IFR with AutoPilot
Ah, thinking like an employee again, are you? 🙂 I wasn't talking wages, I
was talking cost. Two very different things. Your employer matches a certain
amount of your taxes, provides you a phone and a place to work, a desk, a
computer, vacations, etc., maybe even a few perks like a trip or health care.
You "cost" a lot more than your salary.
A phone? A place to work? VACATIONS???? Boy you must never have talked to
a Regional Product Specialist for CBM. RPDs pay for their own phone (CBM
pays SOME of the long distance) RPDs work out of their HOMES (no office
space provided) RPS's use their OWN computers (CBM *may* sometimes send
you a Workbench update… maybe) RPDs are required to put airfare and car
rentals on their OWN personal credit cards (CBM will reimburse the RPD
*eventually* thereby tieing up the RPD's credit for weeks at a time).. and
just what exactly *is* a vacation anyway? I worked for CBM for 5 years
NONSTOP without one… CBM provides NO benefits package, NO stock options
and NO health care for the people charged with developing seminars,
working trade shows and providing technical support to dealers & end
users. I understand that some employers do give a d*mn about their
employees but CBM sure as hell doesn't.
Ah lest I forget, CBM changed all that for ALL RPD's recently. They fired
us. Gee. Thanx Commodore. BTW: These are just the highlights! I have a
longer and more specific diatribe that I wrote about my experience at CBM
and have been thinking of sending it to Amigaworld or Amazing.
I can however sympathize with your point of view. Few people realize that
employers have to match some of the taxes that the employee pays to the
government for example. In my case, I know I do all I can for the guys
that work for me in my video company, so I am familiar with thinking like
an employer. But with the gigs farther and farther apart, recently I've
been thinking more and more like a job applicant! 🙂 So…. just what WAS
your fax number again?? 😉
Vern
A former CBM shaftee.. er, sorry.. EMPLOYee
-=>Flving IFR with AutoPilot
Well, there's some overhead involved in any company. And then there's those
nifty Commodore luggage tags to help start conversations on airplanes. 🙂
My wife is a lawyer, and one of her favorite sayings is "freedom of contract is
the freedom to make a bad deal." Maybe CBM did you a favor.
I can't really say anything in reply, I agree totally with your posting.
Greg
Greg,
I heard Abbey Road Studios are going to start using Bars&Pipes
Professional as their exclusive seqeuncer. Is this true?
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Dom,
Apparently, at the last Amiga show there was an engineer from Abbey Road
Studios who saw Andy's demo of Bars&Pipes he then contacted the sales
manager for C= UK asking questions about the Amiga and Bars&Pipes as he
was considering using it as their main sequencing tool. Mike then passed
the situation onto me and I contacted the gentleman and said that we used
it in our studio. He was very aware of Evelyn's (my fiance) reputation so
we got chatting, he was impressed with the features of Bars&Pipes,
especially the ease of using it in AV work. He said during our
conversation that it sounded like the best system he had researched so
far.
I informed Andy Bishop of the situation and now I'm waiting to hear the
outcome. As soon as I know something for certain I will post it up. BTW
did Andy ring you the other night?, I passed on your message.
Best wishes,
Greg
Greg,
Thanks for the info and please keep us posted.
No, I have not heard from Andy. Maybe you can help. I want to buy
ProText for the Amiga. The U.S. distributor wants me to send a check.
Since the manufacturer is in England, Andy thought he might be able to get
it from them directly using a credit card. The company is Arnor, Ltd. Have
you ever heard of them? If Andy can't get it for me, then I'll get it from
the U.S. distributor, but I'd like it ASAP.
Thanks.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
Dominick,
I'll ask my brother, who owns a little retail computer shop. He should be
able to get it at trade. Are you sure you want ProText? Over here everyone
used to use that but nowadays most use Wordworth.
Greg
Greg,
Thanks, please do ask your brother. I have the spec/feature sheet for
ProText and it appears to have the most features for pure text handling. I
don't need graphics capabilities. Are you familiar with both programs?
Other than graphics, doesn't ProText have many more features than
Wordworth? One think I wanted was macro capability built into the program
a la WordPerfect. ProText has that, but I don't believe that Wordworth
does. Why did most people switch programs?
Thanks for your help and let me know ASAP. I'm ready to order the
program right away.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
I'm suprised at your response. I've just quit a job where I helped
grow a software (PC-based, admittedly) concern from $0 to $2
million/yr in 3 years. We've done several software upgrades and the
have had to deal with similar problems. Even so, you know the old
axiom of sales: each happy customer will get you maybe 1 more sale;
each mad one will kill 10 sales.
What your message tells me is that you can't keep track of your
customers. You state that your customers are selling their old
version and then upgrading to the new version. And then the "new"
owners of the old copy are trying to upgrade that same product. That,
as you have stated, is a copyright violation (if you're selling
licenses to use your software and not the software itself — I
haven't read your license agreement). But, the people you should be
punishing are the sellers of their licenses! They sold their right to
upgrade and then they conned you out of an upgrade. Cut 'em off at
the knees! Refuse support to them…send them a bill…post their
names on CSERVE…call the FBI. Get payment from THEM and not the
new, legal owners.
I'm sure that you know by now that you can't stop piracy. You can make it
warm for those who try to live in the grey area though.
At my old employ we welcomed each new registration. It was another chance
at upgrade money down the line, another name to sell from our database
(unless they didn't want to be part of the published list), someone else
to pass the good word along. If they were a little "grey", we didn't worry
too much — the lost revenue was imaginary (they most likely wouldn't have
bought our software in a year anyway) and could actually be considered
advertising expense.
Well. Didn't expect to mount the soap box. From the little I've seen of
your products, I like what I see. I just think y'all reacted a little
"off" to a problem that *every* software author has to face.
I tend to agree. I think I learned this lesson from Borland. These days,
owning a piece of software isn't very different than having a subscription to a
very expensive magazine. Once in a while, you get a "subscription renewal" in
the form of an upgrade offer. I get the impression that Borland loves to sell
upgrades, whether you're a registered user or not.
Yeah, that's Borland's hook — suck 'em into your database for a small
profit and then sell, sell, sell to them. Borland makes quite a bit of
money by selling their list of names to other companies.
Melissa,
I listened to your explanation of your $99 Licensee Transfer Fee. But I
still am not convinced, for the reasons I outlined in my previous note.
Others that responded to my message had similar feelings.
Let me ask again. Would you consider reexamining your policy concerning a
transfer fee? I really would like to be a loyal _registered_ user of your
products.
I bought a used copy of Bars & Pipes Pro 2.0 that the previous owner had
for around 3 months. He wrote a letter transfering all of his rights to
the program over to me. All I am asking for is the remaining services he
would have received. He has no need for your newsletter or product
offerings since he sold his program and no longer uses it. Someone said
you provide 90 days of free customer phone support and then charge for it.
Since this copy is beyond 90 days I would be willing to pay for any phone
support. I would like to have the opportunity to upgrade in the future as
your product changes. The person I bought from would not need that
opportunity.
Would you register me as the owner of this copy of B&P Pro 2.0 with the
remaining services that you were paid for when this copy was originally
purchased? I would be willing to pay a clerical fee of $10 to $15 to
facilitate this transfer.
Respectfully,
John Baird