Big Blue Apples
80 messages in this thread
Dear All –
Does anyone have any informed opinions about what, if anything, the
just-announced IBM/Apple agreement (against Microsoft, I guess) will mean
for Commodore and the Amiga?
. . . . . JimDoc
Was an announcement really made yet? The part about Apple's plans that I
find most interesting is rumors that they're teaming up with Sony to
produce something that looks, acts and sounds like CDTV, except it's based
around a Macintosh.
I find Sony's determination to enter the video/multimedia/interactive
marketplace very interesting. Someone there sees these markets as THE
future in home entertainment… They had no luck buying NewTek, no luck
buying CBM/Amiga, and yet they are pursuing the technology. If/when they
succeed in gaining a foothold, it could shape the industry.
Michael – Whapping from the North Coast
I don't have an "informed opinion" (as you stated in your post), but
that doesn't stop me from butting in anyway… 🙂
To quickly sum up for others, today newspapers have an article from AP
stating "Former enemies Apple Computer and IBM joined forces Wednesday in a
broad pact to swap prized technologies, develop new machines and seize
control of the industry's splintered direction." Part of the agreement
includes "developing operating system software through a new company to be
jointly owned and independently managed", implying a single operating
system for IBM and Apple computers that would run on Macintosh, IBM PC &
P/S-2, and IBM RS-6000 copmuters.
(Start soapbox) In an industry that comes up with so many meaningless
alliances (such as the one where a bunch of computer makers were going to
take the memory market back from the Japanese, I think called U.S.
Semiconductor) and near-meaningless alliances (the "Gang of Nine" which
resulted in the unimportant EISA standard), this one has to be taken
seriously by the computer industry if only because of its players.
Together, IBM and Apple comprise about 40 percent of computer sales. If,
by some miracle, they ARE able to co-operate and put out an operating
system that both platforms could use, it would present a serious challenge
to Microsoft, who comes across to the industry as a company that is too
arrogant.
Where does Commodore fit into the picture? It doesn't at this time. The
Amiga is not considered a major player by too many industry analysts,
principally because it would mean learning about an entirely new platform,
which would take up too much of their time. If the IBM/Apple alliance
produces a real operating system, the big loser would be Microsoft, whose
users would drop Windows in a New York minute (with DOS 5.0 out, they may
already have). Commodore's share of the Amiga market should not be
impacted much either way, as they don't have much of the market now, they
probably won't have much in the future, unless someone there ever learns
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
the value of marketing (I'd rather bet on the probability that
Timex-Sinclair 1000 makes a big comeback :-).
I do see an opportunity for C=. At this time, Microsoft must feel as if
it were betrayed. After all, Windows was the company's "golden fleece"
(and you'd feel fleeced if you bought it). Windows has the uncanny ability
to take a super 25 mzh 80386 machine and make it feel like an old XT.
Commodore, IMHO, should first try to see if it could buy into or otherwise
negotiate an "in" into the Apple/IBM alliance, so it would be able to offer
an operating system to future Amiga owners that would run industry standard
software. Indeed, Commodore has quite a bit of technology it could share,
namely CDTV and the Amiga OS. Failing any kind of positive response from
that offer, Commodore should consider entering into an alliance with
Microsoft (and hopefully other major vendors, such as Compaq or Dell). The
goal of such an alliance would be to produce a rival operating system to
IBM/Apple's that would run on multi-platforms. Such an operating system
would combine the best elements of Windows (Microsoft's name) with that of
Amiga OS (all the good stuff we already know about).
But since we know Commodore doesn't like to co-operate with other
companies in such manner, it's all academic, isn't it (speaker, foaming at
mouth, is carried off soapbox by men in white coats, put into strait jacket
and trucked off to god-knows-where)…
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Notice that Motorola gains rights to manufacture the rs-6000 chip set. They
also will be supplying 32 bit CPU's to both Ford and GM for the automakers
embedded systems. Buy that stock fast:). Maybe DEC will want to sign with
CBM :):). SInce they have worked with Apple in the past, they may feel
betrayed somewhat. The window interface lawsuit may have more impact on CBM
than the IBM Apple aggrement. If IBM is successful in dumping Microsoft,
we may want to watch Borland. Harry M.
At the present time, DEC is hawking a line of very PC compatible
computers in addition to their extensive line of minicomputers. I fail to
see what advantage either DEC or C= would get out of an alliance, although
one similarity comes to mind; neither company knows how to market to a wide
consumer audience (remember the DEC Rainbow?).
Borland is already formidable, but I doubt it'll ever be another
Microsoft. Neither Quattro Pro or Paradox is number one in sales in its
respective category (spreadsheet and database), and Turbo Pascal's market
is too small to make significant impact.
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Microsoft isn't exactly the most trustworthy of partners, either. Just ask
HP.
mjl
RE: your comment – Microsoft isn't exactly the most trustworthy of
partners…
If you ask some of it's former dealers, the same could be said about
Commodore…
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
An additional (unofficial report) originating from someone on the Cleveland
Freenet:
*** quote
Also, in a report which was on CNBC financial news yesterday, or the day
before, IBM was asked (after the announcement) the question: "What about
smaller companies?" IBM replied,
"We understand the threat posed by much smaller companies, such as the
Commodore Corporation, however, we are not very worried about such a small
company infringing on our markets. Commodore concentrates on multimedia,
and they currently are good at it.
"However, with our (Apple/IBM) new multimedia machine being released in
the future, and Apple releasing their own multimedia system "QuickTime"
this October, we feel that the already popular Macintosh and IBMs will be
able to easily crush any competition other companies may pose."
*** unquote
If the report is true, then it confirms what I'm trying to say; in order
for C= to prosper or even survive long term, they are going to have to
forge alliances with other larger companies and start a "standards war";
otherwise, they will eventually be eclipsed in technological achievement as
they have always been in marketing.
On the other hand, there are MANY other companies designing PCs; will
these companies be able to license the Apple/IBM software/hardware? If
not, does it make any sense for users to go to the Apple/IBM computers if
it is not "industry standard"? Shades of the P/S-2…
How Commodore reacts to future fierce competition from the IBM/Apple
alliance with respect to computers, and Phillips et al. with respect to
compact disk video information systems (CDTV v. CD-I), will decide the fate
of Commodore. And don't be surprised if IBM/Apple brings out their own
Mac-based CD ROM based system just to annoy Commodore and Phillips…
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
If that report IS true, and the earlier reports from AP and UPI about the
Justice Dept. checking for anti-trust violations, then CBM should sue to
prevent the merger.
That quote can be paraphrased into: "However, with our (Apple/IBM) new
multimedia machine being released in the future, and Apple releasing their
own multimedia system QuickTimeNewshell
con:/1//440/AmigaShell/ALT650,11,70,20/CLOSE
thisthis October, we feel [confident that we can maintain a monopoly.]
CBM should start feeding its lawyers raw meat and set up a dedicated line
to the Justice Dept.
-Chas
RE your comment: Then CBM should sue to prevent the merger…
Good idea! Is a company that is organized to merge a standard and drive
smaller companies out of businness a violation of the Sherman Anti-Trust
Act? Good grief…
Actually the Sherman Anti-Trust Act is to protect businesses who charge
artificially low prices to drive out competition, but the way this
convoluted law is written, almost anything can be inferred.
Hey Apple/IBM…can you say "treble damages"??? 🙂
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
I think the Sherman and Clayton acts were set up to prevent and "end"; that
end being a monopoly which harms U.S. interests (that last part is
integral!) "Dumping" is only a means to that end. Any organization that
is devised to prevent competition (American competition, that is) can be
construed as possibly violating the "spirit" of the anti-trust acts.
Fortune magazine (July 15) has a good article on the differences between
Japanese and American attitudes toward the subject. The article is
entitled "Why Japan Keeps on Winning" and is insightful into the Japanese
way of doing business. American' s would (do and have) scream loudly if
U.S. big business tried to do business the Japanese "keiretsu" way.
Still, CBM has a few options. Fighting is one, but they would eventually
lose. IBM and Apple just command too darn much power for CBM to fight on
its own. If they joined forces with Sun (who is threatened by the joint
actions) and possibly Fujitsu (the second largest computer maker in the
world after IBM) who would feel the heat, then you'd be talking business!
CBM just doesn't have the capital to handle the legal maneuvering that IBM
and Apple would sure as shootin' start.
Oh, well. There are other options…
I don't think that their is a case for any type of action against IBM or
Apple under the US anti-trust statutes. These laws pertain to mergers and
aquisitions only, as I understand them.
The deal between IBM & Apple is a "joint venture", where both parties
invest in a "new" company, taking advantage of each others strengths…
much like the creation of RUBBERMAID-ALLIBERT, a joint venture between the
largest consumer plastics products house in the US and the largest European
plastics/resin manufacturer.
Under this type of set up, competition is 'enhanced' _in the view of the
courts_, because it is entirely possible that segments of both IBM and
Apple will be competing with this new company for market share (yeah,
right) just like everyone else. How this new company goes about licensing
any proprietary stuff they come up with is another issue…
Anti-Trust legistation applies to cooperative marketing agreements,
cross licensing agreements, in fact…anything that smacks of
anti-competiveness.
Yah, definitely, alliances and mergers are going to be a "90's thing"
<grin> Tandy got GRiD for laptops and the government market, Compaq got
together with Silicon Graphics recently, Apple and IBM actually talked,
etc.
It's natural, because they're now realizing that no single company can
handle everything that'll be needed in future business machine
environments.
However, I think that Commodore is partially exempt from this need, as
their main income is no doubt from the inexpensive home computers (A500 and
C64s). I'm not sure that breaking bigtime into the Apple/IBM market is
possible… certainly no one has managed it so far, and it's been many
years.
The only thing I'm really worried about, is that these new cooperatives
_will_ come up with something very cool (and affordable). Then it might
take a hard effort to not join in… and woe is me, it's hard to teach us
old dogs new tricks <wide grin>. cheers – kev
It's going to be awhile before Apple and IBM produce anything
substantial, I grant everyone that, and also that the initial efforts of
their joint offering will be high end. But both Apple and IBM have made
overtures to the home market (Apple with its Mac Classic and talk of a Mac
based CD device to take on CDTV, IBM with its PCjr. and P/S-1).
Commodore, to it credit, realizes that their future in any type of
business environment hinges on intercompatibility with other systems
through networking, etc. My problem is that Commodore seems to like to go
it alone in a proprietary manner. IBM has shown with Micro Channel
architecture that proprietary persuits can be a dangerous game.
Finally, there is no doubt that these new co-operatives will come up
with something very cool, probably centering around CD-ROM technology (that
way, the disks can't be easily copied). We'll see how Commodore responds..
Someone else here mentioned that the Mac CDTV-like project was cancelled
during the recent layoffs. But I think they'll push into schools with Mac
LCs equipped with CDROM drives.
You're right that it would help if Commodore were to join up with someone.
One question would be: with whom? cheers – kev
Macs are already being `pushed' into schools. I mean Macs with CDROM
drives. My one partner school district recently aquired 16 Macs w/CDROM
drives. I don't know what Mac version they got.
According to my partner, schools are VERY big on CDROM anything.
Just my .02:-)
Who could Commodore join forces with in order to combat inovations
that might be forthcoming from the Apple/IBM alliance? It is foolish for
me to name names (that's a bit like fantasy baseball trades, IMHO), but
there are plenty of companies who will be negatively impacted by the
alliance; everyone from PC makers not in on the deal (Compaq, Dell, HP,
etc.), minicomputer makers who could use Amiga's vision of a desktop
metaphor to run across a larger range of computers as IBM's OfficeVision
promised (DEC, Prime, etc), to Japanese companies who want to license an
operating system with an installed base of programs and not look like an
MSDOS clone (Take your pick…).
Apple has run around making alliances and agreements with so many
companies, I'm surprised the lawyers and management didn't mess up and
announce a marketing agreement with themselves… 🙂
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
There are rumors on internet that HP and NeXT may be looking for alliances
(not with each other tho, I think… haven't really kept up).
>grin< on the lawyers joke <ducking also!>. kev
Tony, CBM only really needs to cooperate with the AMAX II makers, get
serious about keeping the Bridgeboard technology up to date, and
integrating the AMAX into Janus somehow so that there is easy data
tranportability across "platforms". Then they would have – in real short
order – what IBM and Mac are looking for!
wmc
I don't buy your reasoning. At the present, the Amiga is very weak in
networking, an area that keeps Amigas out of corporate America. The age of
"sneaker net" is over; system intergrators and corporate PC co-ordinators
want to know how any new technology will "plug in" to their existing
technology. Commodore has an EtherNet board, but is there any software to
run it?
Does Amiga have square pixel technology like the Mac, so nice for
Desktop Publishing? Does Amiga have 386 capability to run Windows or
O/S-2? Can it be upgraded to a 486? I don't mean to knock the Amiga; it
certainly has advantages Macs and IBMs don't. But it seems a little silly
for Amiga to push its Mac or IBM capability. If every car compares itself
to a Mercedes and the prices were all similar, wouldn't you just buy the
Mercedes?
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Whoa! :^) "Square Pixel Technology" has absolutely NO bearing on anything
unless the programmers are brain dead. It's a non-issue regarding DTP. You
use scaling, is all. The AMiga/BB can be upgraded to 386, yes. 486,m I
don't know, to be honest – probably. Of course, the Amiga itself can be
upgraded to a 68040, which is faster than a 486 anyway. :^)))
If every car compares itself to a mercedes… <grin> Not hardly. If the PC
is the comparison, then we're simply saying, yes, you can buy the Amiga
(Maserati), and look, right here – under the hood – we keep this piss-ant
little Volkswagon Bug you can use to carry 60's throwbacks (programs). :^)
On networking I agree 100%. The Amiga only has IBM based networking that is
worth anythin at all right now. There are connections available to "big"
systems, but they are of limited use (and that's why they don't sell for
doodoo). CBM has promised peer-peer networking, but they have yet to
deliver. I hear things that say they might be *very* close, but me, I'm not
inclined to believe them till I see the Amiga on the other side of the room
respond to be dragging some icons around – on *it's* windows.
Remember that with the bridge, all the networking there is for the PC can
be had… it's just the Amiga side that is still unconnected.
You know… we've had a number of Amiga developers try and sell us network
"solutions" (and I use the term loosely) that had rudimentary file system
capability… we're looking really hard for a solid commercial solution but
no dice. You'll all hear about it when we find it, you can count on that.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben,
ADQ (another dumb question), How can you upgrade a 286-BB to a 386?
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Plug in an Accellerator to the PC side. The SOTA works, according to some
of our members here, or so I recall.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Actually, I don't think you CAN upgrade a 2286 board to 386; you CAN do it
with the XT (2088?) bridgeboard, however (right, Ron?)
. . . . . JimDoc
Jim:
What? You can take a 2088 up to a 386, but not a 2286? HOW? I'd really
like to know more… any info would be appreciated.
I don't even have a bridgeboard; I learned about this from two others:
Ron D. Troy 76064,252 (accelerated bridgeboard user)
Marion J Deland 72550,1733 (editor of Crossings, BB newsletter)
. . . . . JimDoc
Jim: Thanks for the names and user id's. I appreciate it.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Square pixel technology is an advantage because some brain-dead software
(must have been IBM stuff I tried 🙂 don't compensate for scaling, mostly
in DTP and bitmap graphics programs. As for a 386 in a 200/2500/3000, it
may be possible, but it involves mating a BB with a 386 add-on card like
the SOTA or PC Elevator, (for goodness sake, let's hope they don't have
offspring :-), not a very efficient or cost effective way to accomplish the
task.
We may yet see a quality networking product on the Amiga, but then all
of the programs would have to be re-written to allow file sharing (unless
you only want to use one program on one workstation at a time, defeating
the concept).
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Tony,
Not sure what you mean about requiring programs to be re-written to
allow 'file sharing'. Other than the requirements that I own a copy of
required software for each machine, I can see no difficulties. ASDG, on
the other hand, explicitely disallows my buying 3 copies and putting only
one on the network, since I have better things to do with my HDs than put
multiple copies of the same program on them, I suspect I'll pass.
I'm a bit out of my league here, so if anyone else can explain it
better, please do. First off, maybe I should have said 'record locking'
instead of file sharing. What you DON'T want to have happen is to have two
workstations working on the same set of data at the same time. I
understand that WB 2.0 supports record locking, but true network programs
need to know when to allow file sharing (so that two users can run the same
program at the same time).
Putting more than one copy of a program on a network is wasteful…
Tony,
Are you familiar with "pure" programs on the Amiga. They can be made
resident and accessed by multiple programs at the same time. Each time
they are executed they make a separate copy of the DATA section, but only
one copy of the PROGRAM exists. Is this similar to what you are looking
for in network aps?
-Chas
I have an Amiga 2500/30 at work, hooked into novell via cheapernet.
Easy to do:
put in an AT bridgeboard;
put a cheapernet card on the MSDOS side;
compute away!
?|^] Ray Lewis
I'm happy you're happy with that; I guess I could plug into the
LANtastic network I have at work the same way. But I don't think that file
and program sharing would work too well (or at least as well as it should)
on the Amiga side…
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
I have an Amiga 2500/30 at work, hooked into novell via cheapernet.
Easy to do:
put in an AT bridgeboard;
put a cheapernet card on the MSDOS side;
compute away!
> Commodore has an EtherNet board, but is there any software to run it?
Yes, there is. It runs TCP/IP, and has client NFS available. I run it at
work, along with X-Window by Gfxbase…..in fact, I've been running it for
a few years now. The board was originally from Ameristar, (Commodore
bought the design from them…either that or licensed the technology), and
it ran AmeriStar's software. I now have it running the Commodore software,
and I'm very satisfied with it.
Syndesis has sells a DECNET implementation….I'm sure John Foust will jump
in any minute with details about that. <grin!>
There are a couple of implementations that have peer-to-peer communications
available for the Amiga (from GVP, and someone else whose name escapes me
at the moment).
I'll be glad when CBM gets their networking story together…as mentioned
here already, they're working on it! Hopefully once that standard is in
place we'll see even more networking products and applications available.
Steve
Thanks for the reply; I didn't understand too much of it, but thanks
anyway… 🙂
Seriously, Commodore needs to be able to "plug into" a Novell network,
because that is (what I've been told) the larger companies use for PC
networks, and it would be nice if Amiga could somehow plug into LANtastic
(what many small businesses are using).
As long as I'm wandering seriously off-topic, why are networks so darn
hard to setup and use? That is why all these two-bit peer-to-peer networks
are becoming so popular; you don't have to spend $40,000 per year hiring
someone to figure the dern thing out…
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Tony,
I've seen an Amiga 'plug into' a Novell network, and I watched my
partner run the "syscon" on the Amiga. It worked fine, dunno why it's not
released, we'd sure like to have it here.
I don't really see the need for Commodore to plug into Novell, since you're
going to run into bigger problems just getting Amigas through the door in
those PC places. Besides….who says that Commodore needs to push this?
If there is a lot of money to be made at that, then a third party company
should come forward and do it.
In what I've seen at work, the only tricky thing is setting up drops on our
Ethernet network. You have to use a special tool to drill the cable and
you have to be careful when using it, because if you break the cable you've
got big problems. To avoid that, we use Cheapernet, which is much easier to
use, and as the name implies, much cheaper.
The only thing we really have to watch out for on our networks are people
that think they know what they're doing, when they really don't. These
sorts break the net connections when installing new cable during regular
hours (not after hours), use duplicate addresses, and/or hog the net by
shooting packets at near network capacity. It's easy to find these sorts
of things, but somewhat harder to convince people that they're doing
something wrong. I've always thought part of a network manager's job was to
be an enforcer. 🙂
I don't really see the need for Commodore to plug into Novell, since you're
going to run into bigger problems just getting Amigas through the door in
those PC places. Besides….who says that Commodore needs to push this?
If there is a lot of money to be made at that, then a third party company
should come forward and do it.
In what I've seen at work, the only tricky thing is setting up drops on our
Ethernet network. You have to use a special tool to drill the cable and
you have to be careful when using it, because if you break the cable you've
got big problems. To avoid that, we use Cheapernet, which is much easier to
use, and as the name implies, much cheaper.
The only thing we really have to watch out for on our networks are people
that think they know what they're doing, when they really don't. These
sorts break the net connections when installing new cable during regular
hours (not after hours), use duplicate addresses, and/or hog the net by
shooting packets at near network capacity. It's easy to find these sorts
of things, but somewhat harder to convince people that they're doing
something wrong. I've always thought part of a network manager's job was to
be an enforcer. 🙂
Tony,
have you seen the ad with a Nissan sentra running against a BMW 325 i?
I believe it is the investment in PC software and the ability to pirate
same from the office that have defeated Amiga in the market place. There
is no analog to Lotus, WP/MSWord 5.x, TimeLine, AutoCad, Paradox/Dbase
(excepting SB P4 which in all likelihood is the last version for the Amiga)
Excel, etc on the amiga. So the quick solution is hw/sw emulation of the
platforms those packages run on and an effort to keep them up to date and
marketted well. wmc
Wayne,
Your the first person I've heard mention this. And it never really
dawned on me but now that I think about it, most of the people I know that
have IBM/Compats also get ALL their software from either the office or
someone else. My accountant only paid for his accounting software but has a
list of other programs that would run well over $1500.00 if he actually
bought them. And I know quite a few others who did the same.
Skip, my organization began converting last October from a Wang/MSDOS
environment to Suns with IPC's and SLC's at the desktop. Concurrently, we
essentially ceased buying *ANYTHING* for MSDOS machines.
The *BIGGEST* complaint I got from the loyal staff over the conversion was
the loss of the ability to PIRATE software to home MSDOS machines.
The next biggest complaint was over loss of "privacy"; but that's another
issue altogether. Rob.
Rob,
Amazing, isn't it? These are probably the same people who would scream
at their kids if they took a quarter off the counter without asking or
wonder why people loot stores:-).
>>>>>Skip( SKP Graphics )<<<<<
JimDoc–
I would probably guess that that the agreement will mean nothing in the
end; if either company couldn't get along with Microsoft, without (unless
you consider the recent ACE reports) hardware fish to fry, I can't see how
they'll deal with each other.
However, consider that each company is dedicated to their own vision of
multimedia (both superior to Microsoft's), and to the IBM RISC chipset. The
chipset is of extreme importance, now that Apple has insisted that IBM
license it to Motorola…i think that this "gang of two" can get their
unified system to market before the ACE platforms hit, or, if the ACE
platforms are a loser next year, you'll see some action. Of course, it
could have been announced to prop up sagging stock values…
Macintosh users will not dump their platforms; they are like religious
fanatics, not like us open-minded Amigans…:)…IBM business users will
not easily jump to a non-Intel-based machine, unless there is complete
backward compatiblity, and significant advantages. So, these two partners
would have to bring something out that would run or emulate both MacOS AND
DOS, have an operating system that would look something like OS/2 or
NextStep (probably giving Jobs an ultimate rush), and wouldn't break the
post-recession corporate budget. Of course, without existing models
competing with the new wunderkind… Does this sound likely?
Jonathan
– via Whap!
"So, these two partners would have to bring something out that would run or
emulate both MacOS AND DOS, have an operating system that would look
something like OS/2 or NextStep (probably giving Jobs an ultimate rush),
and wouldn't break the post-resession corperate budget."
Gee, does that sound like any computer WE all own already?
Sounds like you just described an A2000/3000 with A2286 Bridgeboard and
Amax II.
or better yet an A3000 with A2386 Bridgeboard and Amax III. Toss in UNIX
SVR4, combined with AmigaDOS 2.0 and you have the ultimate business system!
Prehaps one of these days people will wake up.
NAWWW
Tim
I don't think Apple or IBM would ask their users to dump their
platforms. I think that Apple and IBM will get together to push a UNIX
(multitasking, multiuser) like OS with a Macintosh front end that would be
easy to use that would run on both IBM and Apple computers. Future models
will contain RISC chipsets to substantially increase performance. That
way, the market will eventually shift over to the higher performance
machines.
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Tony–
Got to disagree. Seeing that IBM had almost no success with OS/2
(although that may change with 2.0…) due to resistance from DOS users (as
well as other major factors) does not bode well.
Add this into the mix: many people have tried the pre-eminent GUI on
the PC – Windows3.0 – and gotten very bad results. We use Windows, and our
machines are slow as syrup. After this, am I anxious to try OS/2 2.0 ?
no… Am I anxious to try MacPC DOS 1.0? Much less so… I think Microsoft
has the best bet here; we've seen Windows at its worst. I hope that future
upgrades will give us a performance boost as the code gets tighter. If it
gets any slower, I am going to give the typesetters I work with their
dedicated Varityper equipment back…
Jonathan
– via Whap!
I'll agree with you that Windows is about as useful as tail fins on
a computer. I long ago trashed that worthless piece of trash in my
office. Since Microsoft is the author of Windows, I doubt that any
goodwill will accrue to them.
It will take some time before Apple/IBM doings hit anyway, and
they'll try to reap their return on investment on the high end
users. Then, like everything else, these benefits will "trickle
down" to the users with mere mortal computer budgets…
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Jonathan,
Is ibm's RISC chipset that much better than Motorola's 88110 RISC, or is it
just cause it is from ibm? Haven't paid much attention to RISC.
73, Kelly
Even though I haven't paid much attention to RISC, I do know if CBM ever
get device independant graphics on Ami, the 88110 tied with an optional
96002 would be one heck of a graphics board!
Kelly –
Haven't used either, can't comment.
Jonathan
– via Whap!
The IBM/Apple non-announcement (I believe it was a premature leak) is not
intended to affect the existing IBM-PC or Mac product lines, IMHO. I
believe the real intent of such an agreement is for Apple's user interface
software to be rewritten to run on IBM's RISC chipset hardware.
Intel-based 80×86 PC's will not be running the Mac OS in a few years;
instead, I believe Apple and IBM to be building a long-term plan,
recognizing each other's strengths (and their own weaknesses). Intel has
been slowly but surely becoming the single-source for the primary hardware
component of a platform with a huge market. This agreement attempts to
break away from Intel, replacing them with IBM and Motorola (IBM-licensed)
manufacturers, as well as teaming up the two largest players in personal
computing today: IBM and Apple.
This agreement intends to produce the next generation of personal computer;
based on the IBM RISC chip and the Apple U/I, it has a lot of potential.
And Microsoft would find itself in the position of 3rd party application
developer.
The impact on Amiga? Only that such a deal might unite huge pieces of the
market, and that might hurt Amigaland, since the more fragmented the
market, the better Commodores chances of being accepted as a winner.
Paul –
> The IBM/Apple non-announcement (I believe it was a premature leak)…
No premature leak this! Press conference to national media!
. . . . . JimDoc
Paul,
I don't beleive the ibm/apple deal well have much of an impact on anybody
for at least two years, since it will take them at least this long to
design/build/program anything for market. Probably closer to three years!
The question is – What is CBM going to do in the mean time? I feel the
current chipset is falling behind when compared to superVGA displays on the
clones, and 8 bit or 24 bit cards on the apples, and all of these devices
are supported by the operating system! A couple of years ago I thought CBM
could do a lot of improvements to the chipset by going 32 bit (twice the
data could be accessed in the same time) and by going to at least twice the
clock rate for the custom chips, for another two times improvement.
Hmmm.. Thinking about this, there would still be hope! The next
generation chipset should go to the hilt – four times faster clock rate (28
MHz bus cycle clock rate, if this is possible, and still leave time for the
cpu to get on here) and 32 bit access. This would be an overall
improvement of 8 times – 8 times as much data could be read in the same
time. In the ECS chipset they already have the capability to go to 35 nS
pixel resolution (with catches) compared to 70 nS pixel resolution we have
now in Hi-res, so if you apply some math to these figures, you would be
able to get a 1280 pixel wide, 256 color mode with no system contention.
In the current system, 640 wide 16 color (4 bit) has chip bus contention,
but 8 color (3 bit does not. Since we can read 8 times as much data, 8 =
2*4, two time 640 = 1280 and four times 4 bits = 16 bits (with contention),
but four times 3 bits = 12 bits with no contention. For 256 color display
we only need 8 bits (hopefully with 24 bit pallette registers), or they
could take all 12 bits, feed it to the D/A and you have 1280 pixels in 4096
colors with no contention.
Hmmm… re-applying numbers and you should be able to get 640 pixels with
24 bits/pixel. Gee, isn't that what we all want? There is hope yet!
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
More work could probably be done in networking, especially different
platforms with Amiga, but there should also be some form of low overhead
Amiga only networking available, hopefully at no extra cost (like Appletalk
– on every machine). Be able to have more parallel ports. Access serial
and parallel ports on different machines. Have a printer.device that can
understand 24 bit pictures.
This is what I think CBM needs to start working on in the next little while
if they want the Amiga to survive as anything more than just a niche
marketplace machine.
73, Kelly
Kelly–
This is what Commodore SHOULD be doing. However, it seems that R&D
means Retarded and Deficient as applied by C=. Don't hold your breath,
like you may have done with the Lowell board.
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan, I never held my breath for the Lowell board!! Now this 24 bit
board GVP is coming out with….
73, Kelly
I can't wait either, for the GVP Board, although I've heard that the
video window(s) feature isn't going to make it in the shipping version; so,
we end up with another Firecracker…unless they are going to put an HD
interface on it…:]
Kelly,
(One small nitpick… in the current 640-wide, 3-plane mode, there's chip
bus contention to the tune of 40-50% cpu slots used up by video DMA.)
An easy "fix" is to either take Steve's idea of a latch to allow grabbing
32 bits at a time; or to take advantage of the page-mode in today's DRAMs
to grab two 16-bit video DMA chunks… bam-bam.. in the same amount of
time.
The future: One thing to remember is that the low-end systems are the most
popular. 24-bit color on those is unlikely for a long while yet. Another
sidenote is that I was surprised to find that many Amiga owners expect to
get a new chipset that will backfit into their current system (unlikely,
tho possible if not much is done).
Therefore I see the best bet as to simply improve base gfx to 8-planes in
lores mode, and then to also come out with bus-based video cards for the
mid and higher end machines. I also don't think that being a niche machine
is something too terrible. We know it was when we bought it, yah? 🙂
PS: It is known that Commodore is working on device-independent graphics…
but that will no doubt take some time to complete. – kevin
It is NOT known. It is hoped, nothing more than that.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben – umm, put it this way then: it's know that Commodore advertised for,
and probably hired, programmers with device-independent graphics
experience.
I saw the ads myself about 6 months ago.
Urrgh. That could've been for the X-Window stuff on Unix, but I don't
think so. Partly because the ad didn't say "X" anywhere, and partly
because the engineers on usenet keep mentioning that DIG is necessary
(feels like they're warming people up to it 🙂
best – kev
Yes – there were ads. So, we can hope. That far, I'll go.
Do you think that CBM is stupid enough to do DIG development w/o contacting
those who are doing alternate gfx systems for the Amiga?
I think that marketing and execs might well be. But not CATS.
We have not been ocntacted; neither have any of the other gfx board
manufacturers.
You'll have to draw your own conclusions.
And, as you say, factor in that the Eunichs stuff uses DIG in a big way,
and they are real hot on Eunichs right now.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben – I would think that even CATS might begin preliminary research alone.
Can I assume that they own one of your HAM-E units?
Yes, I'd count the unix stuff more highly tho, if the ads had mentioned
needing X-Window experience. Hmm. Wonder if I still have a copy on disk?
But you're right… I should amend my statement to: indications are strong,
or something more like that. regards – kev
I would also assume they would do preliminary research alone, without any
interference/opinions. And, that's what *I* think they are doing.
Preliminary work. Not development.
yes, there are several HAM-E units floating around in West Chester, and if
they need more, they are a phone call away.
I thought CBM's Unix would be using an OpenLook interface, or at least that
is what I read in Byte when they were looking at different GUIs a couple of
months ago.
Kelly – OpenLook is just a certain look-and-feel. The actual mechanics are
still X-Window in almost all cases (X is a net protocol, and a basic
toolkit… anything above that is umm… more toolkits that implement a
certain look-and-feel). You could have the OpenLook UI on any machine,
tho.
Kev,
Thanks for the reply. I went and checked the issue of byte with the
article (left it on my lunch table at work) and the article said OpenLook
(and Motif, the other contender for user interface on Unix) were built on
top of X-Windows.
73, Kelly
They showed it with OpenLook at the UniForum show here last fall.
Betty
Who said Commodore is working on device independent graphics????? Commodore
certainly did not! This is how rumors get started.
Tim
Tim,
While I haven't heard of CBM advertising the fact that they are working on
DIG, they did indeed advertise several months ago for programmers with
experience in DIG. A conclusion can be drawn there — but, without
confirmation, you're right, "this is how rumors get started".
-sja
Hi Kev,
Okay, I didn't know 640×3 was in contention. 640×3 = 240 bytes/line. HAM
is 320×6 = 240 bytes/line. What about 320×5 = 200 bytes/line – this should
be out or contention, yes? Now if we apply the 8 times data increase, we
should be able to read 1600 bytes/line. 320×40 = 1600 bytes/line so should
be able to get 24 bits with no problem. Only need 960 bytes/line to get 24
bits RGB in lores mode.
For 640 mode, we would need 1920 bytes/line for 24 bits RGB, but this is
over 1600 bytes/line, so would be in contention. At a rate of 1600
bytes/line, we could get 20 bits/pixel, so we could reduce this to 18 bits
RGB and have 262,144 colors/pixel, or go to slight contention at 21 bits
RGB and 2,097,152 colors/pixel. Course, in 1280 pixel mode, this leaves 10
bits/pixel without contention, which easily gives 8 bits/pixel, perfect for
use with a 256 color/24 bit pallete register.
Yes, of course I am not talking low end system here, but something 68030,
or preferably, 68040 based. You know, the Ami 4000!
Yes, I saw Steve's idea of the 32 bit latch. Too bad CBM didn't
incorporate something like that into the 3000. Course, if they did, I
would have been wishing for more yet!
Sure low end systems are popular, but still, the 3000s are selling like
hotcakes and they are not cheap. As to the people with the 500s that want
to add flicker fixers, accelerators, 2 meg fat agnus, hard drives 32 megs
32 bit ram, etc., all I can do is shake my head!
73, Kelly
Lores 5-planes is also in contention, altho only around 14% in 320×200
mode. Anything over 4-planes in lores mode, or over 2-planes in hires mode,
takes away potential cpu->chipram access slots, which are only available on
every other 280ns chipram cycle to begin with.
And anything over _0_ planes starts to take away potential blitter cycles!
In lores 16-color overscan, around 35% of blitter slots are unavailable.
Here's the the slot allocation for every one lores dot, or two hires dots:
4 6 2 3 5 1 lores plane usage
|___|___|___|___|___|___|___|___| 280ns chipram slots
4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 hires plane usage
x x x x x=cpu slots
From the above, you can see that using 3 hires planes takes away 1/2 of the
cpu slots, and 2/3 of the blitter slots… during active video DMA time
(thus using overscan makes things worse). best – kev
PS: argh! Must've been asleep. Did I say one or two dots? Nope. Of
course each slot picks up 16 bits at a time, for either 16 lores dots or 32
hires dots in the diagram. Ouch. cheers – kev
Ah, so, now I see how the contention works with different modes and planes.
I kind of remember seeing something like your chart in the old hardware
manual, but I didn't clue into what all those slots they were talking about
were. Much clearer now, Kev!
73, Kelly
Kelly,
I am not a programmer or hardware designer, just a lowly Amiga dealer,
but here's a thought. Somewhere I read that the PC slots on the 2×00 and
3×00 could be turned on through the Janus library without running MS-DOS.
Is it possible to place a SuperVGA card in an AT slot and then use a
special "BB" to feed device independent graphics information to it using
the correct address which any VGA card might expect.
Hardware guys out there… I am hopelessly fantasizing or is this a good
angle for third party types to take?
Yes and No!
First, you can't feed the SuperVGA card DIG info for two reasons – a) it
wouldn't know what to do with DIG info. b) DIG doesn't exist on the Amiga
to begin with.
If DIG did exist, then what you propose would work if you had a very smart
graphics card, like one of those based on the TI 34020 (I think that is the
device number). But having this wiz-bang superVGA card would not be
enough. The card most likely would not speak Amiga DIG (if it existed), and
even with all the power the 34020 offered, more processor help would be
required. This could be done via a patch or interface program running on
the Amiga that understood the DIG info, translate what could be directly
translated to 34020 code, and have to do everything else that couldn't be
directly translated (such as dealing with fonts). This would work, but
would add a lot of overhead to the Amiga's CPU. So, to get any kind of
performance, a processor would have to be added between the Amiga DIG
commands and the SuperVGA board. This could probably be done by using
something like the AT-BB (since it could also provide the interface path
between the ZoroII bus and the AT bus. Either that, or your "special BB"
would have to provide the processing power required for the interfacing. I
doubt the AT-BB would have enough horsepower to begin with!
Anyway, you are probably seeing that t do what you propose, would start to
get expensive, and also would require the AT bus to be dedicated to the
video application. A DIG display is something, in my opinion, would be
left to a ZorroII card designed for the task.
73, Kelly
I've been told (but cannot confirm) that a mini-BB just for using PC video
cards has been created. I guess we'll have to wait a little while and see.