#CD-Recordable Purchase
59 messages in this thread
John…
One thing to ad to your very informative message…I have an
RCD1000, one of the first available in the U.S., and have had
problems writing to t…cyanine (sic) CD-ROMs – about a 50% failure
rate – while haveing no failures with the cyanine dye CD blanks.
Finally the problem occured while I was demonstrating my setup to an
engineer from Japan who works for the inventor of the t…cyanine
dye.
He took my problamatic CD (it had written successfully on a Windows
machine and the file structure was readable under File Manager but
the program witten to the disk would lockup the computer) and shipped
it to their labs in Japan. The response back from the lab was that
the Pinnacle (JVC) drive was out of Orange Book specs and was "over
burning". In essence the laser was burning thru the T…cyanine dye
and blurring the pits. It apparently didn't have that problem with
the cyanine (thicker) dye.
The Japanese engineers told me that JVC and Pinnacle were aware of
this problem and that a "firmware" upgrade was available. Well I
have attempted to get such a firmware upgrade from Pinnacle with no
luck (three weeks trying as of today). I have called, FAXed and
attempted to log onto their BBS all with no luck.
It is incredible to me that they didn't contact me in the first
place when they knew of this problem – it should have been an
automatic recall or upgrade. I am even more upset that after weeks
of trying to get a resolution to this problem I am still without a
working writer.
If some other user of the Pinnacle RCD1000 is having the same
problem I hope this information helps. It cost me plenty to find all
this out and is still costing me.
I still like the writer and the software I just want these
problems solved!!!
By the way does anyone have a solution to the overheating problem
with this drive. I am not sure if this related to the over burning
or not. I have noticed that if I am writing a large number of CDs
(well actually only over 5 or 6) in rapid succession that my Pentium
60 eventually locks up and when I eject the CD-ROM I am writing it
is hot as blazes.
..Carl
"It is so much easier to live placidly and complacently. Of course,
to live placidly and complacently is not to live at all…."
Carl, if you are not having any luck getting through to Pinnacle BBS
to download the firmware upgrade, I can snail mail it to you. I have
just downloaded RCD-PC v. 2.12 E and have the latest firmware, v.
1.32 for the RCD 1000. What is the brand name of the disks you were
having trouble with ?
Paul…
Please see my e-mail reply. Thanks.
..Carl
Don't know if it's the same model, but early Pinnacles are said to
have a design flaw that causes overheating — the laser housing isn't
vented, or is inadequately vented.
BTW, the "other" dye is spelled pthalocyanine.
Kathy
The One-Off CD Shops
Kathy…
Yeah, when I got to the office where all my reference material is I
relearned how to spell it. Ptttt :^)
Do you know if there is a way of determining whether or not I hav the vent
problem? There are no vent on the top of the case but I suspect that isn't
what you are referring to here.
Did I see in a previous message that you are in the DC area? I work at the
Museum of Natural History (Smithsonian). Would love to drop by your place for
a visit if you do.
Thanks for the info…Carl
Carl,
PMFJI
<<I work at the Museum of Natural History (Smithsonian). Would love to drop by
your place for a visit>>
Sure sounds like most of _us_ would rather visit _you_. My wife could spend a
week in the Smithsonian!
Jerry Warner
CD Solutions, Inc.
Jerry…
A week? I've worked here 11 years and I haven't even seen everything in
this one museum. :^) It really is a great place, a gem in our nations
capitol.
..Carl
It sure is – and the gem collection is nice, too!
Hey Daniel…
Good to see you in this forum. I'm used to seeing your posts in the Amiga
forums.
..Carl
Carl,
I'm not in DC now — I was in Reston for a conference a couple of
weeks ago (SIGCAT 95). However, you may be referring to a message
from Mark Czajka of The One-Off CD Shop Washington. He's located in
White Plains, MD. If you'd like to visit their shop, you can call
them at 301-870-0480 or contact Mark online at 71042,3304.
I'm in Huntsville, AL, and you're welcome to come visit anytime I'm in
town 😉
>> Do you know if there is a way of determining whether or not I hav
the vent problem? There are no vent on the top of the case but I
suspect that isn't what you are referring to here.
No, not the case necessarily. I believe the laser assembly inside the
case didn't have any vents/heat sink/fan/whatever, although I haven't
disassembled one of them myself. I've been told by people at JVC
that their non-Pinnacle version of the same machine doesn't have that
problem, however. TO be fair, it may be possible to burn up any CD-R
writer if you work it hard enough, esp. if the ambient temperature in
your workspace is not low enough. One of our shops reported burning
up a Philips CDD521 a year or two ago by recording 30 discs
back-to-back, but other people do that without problems. I guess a
lot of unknowns still exist in this area.
Kathy
The One-Off CD Shop MidSouth, Inc.
Huntsville, AL
Kathy…
I missed SIGGCAT this year – just toooo busy (I actually had to fly
out of town on an emergency trip). It was the one convention/trade
show I really wanted to attend this year. Oh well.
Thanks for the follow-up info on the heat problem. I'm going to
look into it more closely. I'll try to visit the local, MD, shop.
Carl, they only customer support system I've seen that sends out
automatic updates is Twelve Tone — Cakewalk Professional–I'm
impressed with their support. My dealings with Pinnacle so far have
been like pulling teeth.
KAC
Ken…
Yeah Pinnacle hasn't come through for me when I needed them to but
it is partly my fault for not having enough time to focus on the one
problem and get it resolved. I just can't believe how complicated
life is becoming.
..Carl
>>Yeah Pinnacle hasn't come through for me when I needed them to but it is
partly my fault for not having enough time to focus on the one problem and get
it resolved. I just can't believe how complicated life is becoming.
That strikes a chord with me. I've been trying to straighten out my
Internet account with Netcom for a year now, but I feel that it is
partly my fault for not having had time to focus on it exclusively
long enough to get it resolved. IS it my fault? Of course not. It
should've been right from the start, and if it isn't it's the
vendors' job to focus on it.
Coming from technical support, I can see both sides of this. But a
customer shouldn't have to spend his or her own valuable time
continually checking back to make SURE it is being resolved. One
phone call oughta do it – and tech support should follow up to see if
the case can be closed. It's not that hard to do.
That's the way things ought to be. <sigh>
Dana…
You are correct of course. We Americans have a tendency to accept poor
service and then still tip 15%.. 8^(
..Carl
"It is so much easier to live placidly and complacently. Of course,
to live placidly and complacently is not to live at all…."
A friend of mine who has lived in New York for 40 years sees it this
way: "If you're never going back to that restaurant, don't bother to
tip at all." I'm not sure I want to extrapolate that to Pinnacle,
however… <G>
Yeah I've done that at a restaurant in Naples, Fla. (after the worst
service I've ever had) and had the waitress chase us out the door
cussing us and calling us all the dirty names she could think of. My
friends were embarassed – I only got mad and never returned to that
restaurant.
Now Pinnacle is a different matter. I still love the concept of the
company I just wish they would be easier to get in touch with and
respond when you do finally get through to them. Growing pains I
assume I just hope they don't get such a bad rep that they can't out
grow it.
By the way I really like your software. Sooooo simple to use. Works
the way I think it should.
Good lord! You'd think that waitress would have learned something, and I hope
she got fired since she lost the restaurant customers. If the tip system is so
taken for granted, it clearly isn't working. Here in Italy we rarely leave
tips, and then only (the equivalent of) a dollar or two, but wait staff are
paid _much_ better: adults with families can actually support them waiting
tables. And service is generally good.
I've noticed a net drop in complaints about Pinnacle lately, so I think the
steps they have taken to improve the situation are working, and we're seeing
more happy customers as well. I'm in close contact with one of their support
people here in Europe, so we're keeping each other informed to our mutual
benefit.
Thanks for the kudos on the software — it's always nice to hear it. Let us
know what else we can do!
Ciao,
D'
D'…
The kudos for your software are well deserved!
The tipping situation here in the good old USA has always bothered me. I
prefer the system in parts of Europe (Denmark is what I know best) where the
tip is built into the total bill.
Here in the states it is usually younger people who wait tables, except in
the very expensive ($100 per meal) type restaurants. They make excellent money
in good situations, at least my waiter/waitress friends do, but don't do it
as a career. Most expect to use their tips to party hardy.
Since one of our loyal forum members Xpress mailed me the upgrades in
firmware and software for the Pinnacle this past week I seem to be back in
business.
My Japanese engineering friends tell me "we have told JVC to correct the
problem…"
of their writers being out of Orange book spec regarding the laser temperature
and over burning. Have you heard anything regarding this and whether the
firmware upgrade actually solves this problem? I am very curious. Since you
are in contact with one of the Pinnacle support people there in Europe you
might get a straighter answer than I can get which was "I've never heard of
that."
..Carl "It is so much easier to live placidly and complacently. Of course,
to live placidly and complacently is not to live at all…."
Well, I've personally never heard of it, but will forward your original message
on to my friend here and see what he says.
Thanks.
..Carl
Carl,
Thanks for the note on the RCD1000 problems – is the problem dye the one that's
gold-colored, or the green-colored stuff that's fairly common? Why do you use
it?
Pinnacle is an 'interesting' company – much as a person might describe a new
food they're pretty sure they don't like as 'interesting'. They must have their
business act together – they've made their mark primarily by bringing out new
technology at aggressive price points. But I've never been comfortable with
them technically, and look forward to having other choices. But I suppose when
Sony's offering a $495 CD-R, the latest Pinnacle RCD2500 will be $395, and I'll
continue my cheapskate habits and buy it in spite of myself.
John
John…
The "gold" CD-R disks are the pthalocyanine dye. It is supposed to have an
archieval life of 100 years. The "green" CD-R disks are the cyanine dye and
said to have an archieval life of only 20 years. They cost the same from my
suppliers so I have gone with the more archieval quality.
Yeah I have the same feelings about Pinnacle. I like companies that come
in and really challange the accepted price structure. I tend to support them
and give them a bit more slack than I would the others. I guess you might say
I am a bit of a rebel at heart – can't stand to follow the herd.
..Carl "It is so much easier to live placidly and complacently. Of course,
to live placidly and complacently is not to live at all…."
Carl,
Based on *very* limited experience, the pthalocyanine disks are the ones my
Toshiba 3401's won't read, but of course that could be a function of the way
they were made and not the medium. Any generalizations to be made?
John
John…
Only guesses. Apparently pthalocyanine disks are much more tempremental
during the writing. Variations in laser temperature can make a difference in
them. I have pthalocyanine disks that were written successfully and where I
can read the directory but when I attempt to open a file or program from the
disk the computer locks up. A Pinnacle service tech has told me to stay with
the cyanine dye disks for the RCD1000. However, that goes against what I am
attempting to do. My job is to produce the most archieval disks possible and
the "stated" life expectancy of cyanine disks is 20 years, pthalocyanine 100
years.
..Carl
Dear Carl,
did the Pinnacle tech give you any solid reason for that recommendation, or was
it based on experience, or what?
Thanks,
D'
D'
He only stated it was what "he" recommended. He asked for more info
relating to what I had found out from the disk manufacturer who had stated
that the Pinnacle (JVC) drive was out of Orange book spec. and said he would
get back to me with more info.
..Carl
Just a few notes on CD-R Media:
While everyone's seem to have heard of Kodak's (gold dye) guarentee of 100
years life, I'd be interested to see where the mere 20 years on cyanine (green
dye) for archival came up? Mosot of the info I've heard over the last couple of
years have ranged from 50-200 years for cyanine. Not that it's all that
crucial as the format will be long gone (or displaced by higher density
formats) before the discs are.
Our testing here on a number of discs showed absolutely no degradation in
playback after one year storage on a variety of media (both gold and greenf).
There was some minor degradation in playback of a cyanine disc that had spent
18 months in environmentally harsh conditions (i.e. my off-road truck's CD
player/summer winter/wet/dry etc) but the disc was still way within Red Book
specs. That disc wfas cyanine based (green dye).
As far as gold-dye discs not playing on a Toshiba 3401. Mine and every other
Toshiba I've seen/tried works great. Furthermore, the Toshiba's have given me
much less stress with CD-R than what a number of my customers report.
Our testing has shown no extra temprementality in the phtalocyanine (gold-dye)
discs during the write. On the contrary, both dyes perform remarkably
consistently across all the writers and media we've tested. Writers tested
include: Sony900E, Sony920, Philips 521 & 522, Plasmon 4100, Yamaha CDR100,
Ricoh 1x, Pinnacle 202, Marantz, Kodak 2x units. I'm waiting for some discs
backl on a Pinnacle 1000 2x unit. Media brands tested include all types from
those acutally manufacturing media: TD
K, Taiyou Yuden, Mitsui, Kodak, Verbatim
(Mitsubishi Kasei), Ricoh etc.
Kathy,
<<I'd be interested to see where the mere 20 years on cyanine (green dye) for
archival came up? Most of the info I've heard over the last couple of years
have ranged from 50-200 years for cyanine. Not that it's all that crucial as
the format will be long gone (or displaced by higher density formats) before
the discs are.>>
I agree. It's as if someone has launched some sort of smear campaign recently
or something. I've suddenly had customers think the green dye is some sort of
low quality item.
Jerry Warner
CD Solutions, Inc.
I'd like to clear something up here — I did not write the message you're
replying to. I think that's the account number that goes with the One-Off CD
Shops CDVENB account, so Scott Bracken is the author. I've let Scott know he
was using my name inadvertantly.
But let me put my 2 cents worth in on the green (cyanine) discs. They are just
as good as the gold discs according to our tests from a recording/playback
standpoint, and are the original type. I don't have any test results on
lifetimes, but the discs recorded with the green formula when they first
started doing this in 1988 are still good, fwiw.
A bit of trivia — Bob Starrett told me yesterday that he still has a couple of
the old original Fuji discs from 1988, still shrinkwrapped. He said they
actually layered silver on top of the gold, presumably to keep from shocking
people with the different color when CD-R was originally introduced.
Kathy
71216,1271 <<– the only account I'm using now
Kathy,
<is it you this time>
<<I did not write the message you're replying to. I think that's the account
number that goes with the One-Off CD Shops CDVENB account>>
Yes. It's so confusing to have your name showing up in the header then find
out it's Scot Bracken in drag. Can't he afford his own account? <BG>
<<They are just as good as the gold discs according to our tests from a
recording/playback standpoint, and are the original type.>>
Ok, so the _three_ of us agree on our opinion. Consensus of professionals is
important.
<<He said they actually layered silver on top of the gold, presumably to keep
from shocking people with the different color when CD-R was originally
introduced.>>
So what does _that_ do to the reflection for the laser? <grin>
Jerry Warner
CD Solutions, Inc.
>><<He said they actually layered silver on top of the gold, presumably to keep
from shocking people with the different color when CD-R was originally
introduced.>>
>>So what does _that_ do to the reflection for the laser? <grin>
I don't think it does anything. The aluminum/silver is on top of the gold,
which reflects the laser beam. It's simply an expensive label.
Kathy <<– really me this time
<<He said they actually layered silver on top of the gold, presumably to keep
from shocking people with the different color when CD-R was originally
introduced.>>
>>So what does _that_ do to the reflection for the laser? <grin><<
I just took a look at my oldest (c 1989) Fuji-manufactured Yamaha PDS disc, and
not only is it layered with silver paint, the underside is a dull gold. It's
still readable. I can remember the first organic dye-polymer green discs when
they came out that same year.
Jerry-
I think Kathy misunderstood me slightly. It appears to be silver paint
on the label side. The dye is bronze in color. As for the reason for the paint
– that's my interpretation. It would be interesting to hear from someone who
was involved with this stuff about the true composition. It also has ten thin
concentric rings on the writable side, looking much like tiny leadout areas.
Their positions seem to correspond with disc length, that is they are closer
together as you move towards the ouside of the disc.
I was thinking about popping one into a moder writer to see if it
registered. Maybe even writing to it. But I may save them for the "CD-ROM
Museum".
BOB
Bob,
Good idea — I'll ask Allen about it next time I talk to him.
Kathy
The new one that I have heard is that if you hold the disc up to light and can
see through it the disc is no good. <BG> Aren't rummors fun?
On the whole scheme of things the people we know who use the most discs (JPL)
Use cyanine (Ricoh) discs on a spindle.
Georges
CD Archive, Inc.
http://www.cdarchive.com
>The new one that I have heard is that if you hold the disc up to light and
>can see through it the disc is no good. <BG> Aren't rummors fun?
Well, we have an expression in French that says soemthing like "There's no
smoke without a fire". If you see some little shiny spots when you hold the
disc up to light, it's likely the disc is faulty soemwhere on its surface. It's
difficult to spot such scraps in normal conditions. It's usually an upside
(surface) reflecting part that has gone, most of time because of physical harm.
As for the green/gold preference, I'd like to add I've treated some Kodak discs
badly (letting them fall and hit a corner of a table etc) and they never lost
their surface integrity. Which ain't the case with some of the green discs I've
treated the same way…
Fred.
Frederic Botton from Paris, France
fbotton@cix.compulink.co.uk
Fred,
I guess it depends on how you define "can see through it" as the gold is thin
enough you can see thru the gold (for eclipses and such). Then again, if
there's a hole in the gold you're looking thru (ie clear plastic) then yes, the
disc is bad.
Jerry Warner
CD Solutions, Inc.
Jerry,
Yes, of course, it entirely depends on how you define "can see through it", and
I guess that's one of the reasons that made some people spread the rumour you
mentionned… Saying some little scraps may reveal a faulty disc just become
seeing through a disc means a faulty disc to tabloid-like rumour spreaders 😉
Fred.
Frederic Botton from Paris, France
fbotton@cix.compulink.co.uk
>>The new one that I have heard is that if you hold the disc up to light and
can see through it the disc is no good. <BG> Aren't rummors fun?
Since you can see through any CD, gold or aluminum, if the label doesn't
obscure it, that's an interesting test.
Kathy
Since you can see through any CD, gold or aluminum, if the label doesn't
obscure it, that's an interesting test.<<<
That is why I thought it was so funny when I read this!
Georges
Georges,
<<hold the disc up to light>>
Oh no! Don't start any more of these.
Jerry Warner
CD Solutions, Inc.
http://www.cdarchive.com/cd_solutions/welcome.htm
>I agree. It's as if someone has launched some sort of smear campaign
>recently or something. I've suddenly had customers think the green dye is
>some sort of low quality item.
I'm also trying to find solid proofs of the gold vs green controversy, but it's
definitely hard to say.
What I can tell, based on my archival experiences, is that the reading problems
I've had on non-scsi drives were all from Maxell, TDK, Sentinel (i.e. green).
Error reports from Kodak (gold) are near zero. Well, some CDs I've cut recently
(Kodak) seem not to behave well on 4x Panasonic drives from the Creative Labs
Home package… I've also had some problems with Traxdata CDs on Panasonic
drives (can't tell if they're gold or green). BTW, scuzzy Toshiba drives have
had the best behaviour so far, whether used with green or gold CDs…
As we still don't know what's really going on, we're still using Kodak for
vital archiving or testing purposes… It would be a good thing to know!
A guy from Sentinel France told us Kodak discs were indeed better than their's,
and other green brands. His explanations were actually a little bit vague…
Fred.
Frederic Botton from Paris, France
fbotton@cix.compulink.co.uk
Frederic,
Our company has been testing CD-Rs for the past year or so, and presented our
results last week at the Replitech conference in Santa Clara. You might recall
asking for a copy of that report a few months ago. I'm planning to have that
published by next week.
Kathy
The One-Off CD Shops
Kathy…
Could I request a copy of the report. I'm very interested in your findings.
Thanks…Carl
Carl,
I"ll be happy to have the report sent to you — please ** email ** your
snail-mail address. It will be a week or two before those go out, however. We
gave the presentation last week from the data & notes, but now we have to write
the full report 😉
Kathy
The One-Off CD Shops
I was interested to see your message about the life of gold and green discs.
What equipment do you use to test degradation of CD-R discs? Do you have a
method of checking the reflectivity of the discs, or are you just looking at
digital effects like raw error rates?
Regards,
Robert Wilkinson.
We use Off-line CD analyzing equipment from CD Associates. Yes it analyzes
reflectivity, digital error rates, and all Red Book specified analog
measurments. It is this data upon which I am basing my conclusions. A summary
report was presented at Replitech by Katherine Cochrane and Pat Smith of The
One-Off CD Shop.
Thanks for your reply.
Do you have an address or telephone number for CD Associates. Computer Select
does not have any reference to them.
Thanks again,
Robert
Uh oh, I'm going to add to the ID confusion again 😉
I'm sure Scott could answer this, but I beat him to it:
CD Associates, Inc.
15375 Barranca Pkwy
Suite I-101
Irvine, CA 92718
714-733-8580 fax 714-453-0868
Kathy
The One-Off CD Shops
Kathy did beat me to it. My contact name is John Olshefski.
>>Kathy did beat me to it.
Nyah, nyah <BG>
Serves you right for working when you should be keeping up with the forum!
Kathy
Robert,
Please see my reply to Jerry — the message you replied to was written by Scott
Bracken, not me. We've got the forum IDs straightened out now.
Kathy
Am interested in Philips 522 – can you provide any more specific information on
your experience with that particular writer? Reliability? Ease of use? Thank
you.
Kathy-
Marantz writer? That's news to me. Please supply details. I know Kathy is busy
for several days – anyone else know of this?
BOB
Bob,
the Marantz writer was one of the first (if not THE first CD recorder).
Writing CD-DA only it had a digital audio input to get the data to it.
Peter
Bob —
I don't remember saying anything about Marantz — must have been Scott
masquerading as me in the TOOCDS account again 😉
Kathy
Katherine,
Thanks for the sage words about CD-R media stability. We expect to archive some
test data, and might actually need to dig some of it and take a look at it
after ten or fifteen years. It sound like CD-R's will 'way outlast 9-track
tape, but 8mm tape looks like it's holding up pretty well, too.
No doubt the format will be ancient history in fifteen years, but at least
keeping an "old" CD-ROM drive around will take up a lot less space than keeping
an old 9-track tape drive <g>.
John
John,
Even your 8mm tape is really going to deteriorate after 5-7 years — it's just
the nature of the material. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to re-record
them every 4-5 years to be safe, and I believe it's recommended that you
retension them at least once a year. Another nice thing about CD-ROM — you
never have to rewind a CD!
Kathy