#Metaballs
43 messages in this thread
I understand (having read Jonas' oft-emailed explanation) that r4 has no spline
modeler. However, having watched someone fooling around with (of all things)
Playmation, I want to know what modeling plug-in 3DS solutions there are.. for
organic shapes in particular.
I have seen some glossies on Metaballs modeler — can someone give me more
information on the product?
Dov
There should be a bezier patch modeler and a metaball modeler available early
in the new year. I'll keep you posted.
Danny…
Danny,
<< There should be a bezier patch modeler and a metaball modeler available
early in the new year. >>
Is the metaball modeler part of your patch modeler or is it a separate product?
Keep me posted on them.
Mark
Mark,
Have you tried the freeware metaballs modeler Blob02 ?
I have been using it with some limited sucess. I wonder
how it compares with the commercial versions available.
ME
Max:
What have you tried to do with the Blob modeler? Are you aware that I
posted the latest version a little while ago? (version 2.0a). I would
appreciate your feedback.
Alfonso
Alfonso,
I just got and love your Blob modeler! I built a reasonable head & shoulders
bust with it in a few minutes. I want to use it to build a cave structure so I
can move inside.
There are a great number of things that could be done to improve the user
interface, as you are probably aware. Do you have plans to enhance this
program and are you looking for suggestions?
BTW, twice I have gotten "A serious math error occured! Results may be
inaccurate", both on my 486/66 and my Pentium/66. I don't remember what I was
doing the first time this happened, but just now it was after I had changed the
blob threshold a few times and did a few previews, then tried moving a blob.
When this happens, it takes a bunch of ESC presses to get rid of the message.
The first time this error occured, the program quit with "too many errors" or a
similar message.
Is there a practical limit to the number of blobs? I put several dozen into
the head model I did.
The first time on each machine that I saved a blob, it presented me with a
suggested file name that was binary character garbage. Once I accidentally
clicked on the garbage filename and it made a file with a binary garbage name
in my directory.
The DXF loading in 3DS in takes a _long_ time. Have you considered writing a
binary DXF to save disk space? I'm not sure, but I think I remember that a
binary DXF will load faster.
Anyway, thanks for the program. It is GREAT fun. From the docs it looked like
you may have a MS Windows version. Is this a fact?
JKJ
>>The DXF loading in 3DS in takes a _long_ time.
>>Have you considered writing a binary DXF to
>>save disk space? I'm not sure, but I think I
>>remember that a binary DXF will load faster.
Hello, John –
I've found that the fastest way to get a blob into 3DS is to convert twice.
First, export from the Blob modeler as RAW. Then use RAW23DS to convert the
data to an ASCII 3DS file. This should load a little quicker!
Jim
>>BLOB->RAW->3DS…
I'll try that. My last blob made a 2MB DXF. I'm also seeing a bunch of extra
triangle slivers, perhaps DXF artifacts or a result of the 'marching cubes'
algorithm? I had the program lock up my computer once this evening when I
added a HUGE sphere to a field of >100 spheres, but, hey, I'm not complaining –
I love what this thing will do.
JKJ
//I just got and love your Blob modeler! I built a reasonable head & shoulders
bust with it //in a few minutes. I want to use it to build a cave structure so
I can move inside.
thanks! did you get version 2.0a for DOS? There's an awesome image that
someone did in the GUGRPA forum, New Images section named "BALIEN.JPG". It's
an alien head with a "leather type" texture. Very impressive!
//There are a great number of things that could be done to improve the user
interface, as //you are probably aware. Do you have plans to enhance this
program and are you //looking for suggestions?
Please feel free to comment! I'm always trying to improve the program.
Initially it started as a very simple program so some of the suggestions I've
received require "boku" re-write.
//BTW, twice I have gotten "A serious math error occured! Results may be
inaccurate", //both on my 486/66 and my Pentium/66. I don't remember what I
was doing the first time //this happened, but just now it was after I had
changed the blob threshold a few times //and did a few previews, then tried
moving a blob. When this happens, it takes a bunch //of ESC presses to get rid
of the message. The first time this error occured, the program //quit with
"too many errors" or a similar message.
Try to figure out what exactly you were doing so I can check it on my side.
//Is there a practical limit to the number of blobs? I put several dozen into
the head //model I did.
whatever the limit of RAM (no EMS/XMS is used 🙁 ) you have.
//The first time on each machine that I saved a blob, it presented me with a
suggested file //name that was binary character garbage. Once I accidentally
clicked on the garbage //filename and it made a file with a binary garbage name
in my directory.
yes, I have to fix that one.
//The DXF loading in 3DS in takes a _long_ time. Have you considered writing a
binary //DXF to save disk space? I'm not sure, but I think I remember that a
binary DXF will load //faster.
yes it does – I gues I'll have to bite the bullet and just do it.
//Anyway, thanks for the program. It is GREAT fun. From the docs it looked
like you may //have a MS Windows version. Is this a fact?
yes, but the Windows version is already laggin – it doesn't support
cylinders/cones. Still it's a good version.
Alfonso
Alfonso,
I built my first cave system with Blob (yes, 2.0a) yesterday – this thing has
some real potential.
I continue to get "A serious math error.." often (running solely on the Pentium
now) I'll try to pin it down. It mostly seems to happen after I have a bunch
of spheres, say >100, with the resolution set to the max. I've been working
around it by exiting the program and then restarting. Also, I had the computer
lock up completely once after adding a HUGE sphere to a hundred or so small
spheres.
>>slow loading…
Jim Lammers had this hint yesterday…
"I've found that the fastest way to get a blob into 3DS is to convert
twice. First, export from the Blob modeler as RAW. Then use RAW23DS
to convert the data to an ASCII 3DS file. This should load a little
quicker!"
This works VERY well – my latest Big Blob loaded in seconds instead of minutes.
Actually, the perfect solution for 3DS users would be to write a 3DS file
format directly. I believe the file toolkit is available from Autodesk. (They
ought to give you one free in exchange for the enhancement your generous gift
makes to 3DS!)
I have a lot of ideas for user-interface enhancment, for example the way some
of the buttons operate. I could also create a feature wish-list if you are
interested. The next time I use it, I'll start keeping a log, and can send you
beta-style reports by email.
Where can I find the Windows version? Does it run full-screen at whatever
resolution I have Windows set? Is there any way to get more resolution in the
DOS version.
BTW, for current use with 3DS, the DOS version may make more sense to most
people, as long as the program can run from the shell. For those with several
machines on a network, the Windows version may be ideal.
JKJ
//I built my first cave system with Blob (yes, 2.0a) yesterday – this thing has
some real //potential.
a cave? interesting. Is that for a fly-by?
//I continue to get "A serious math error.." often (running solely on the
Pentium now) I'll //try to pin it down.
keep me posted – another option could be to compile different versions
(with/without optimizations etc) and see if it makes any difference.
>>slow loading…
//Jim Lammers had this hint yesterday…
// "I've found that the fastest way to get a blob into 3DS is to convert
// twice. First, export from the Blob modeler as RAW. Then use RAW23DS
// to convert the data to an ASCII 3DS file. This should load a little
// quicker!"
//This works VERY well – my latest Big Blob loaded in seconds instead of
minutes. //Actually, the perfect solution for 3DS users would be to write a
3DS file format directly.
I was a little worried with memory usage (recall that BS 2.0+ is not a DOS
extended app) so we tried to include the least amount of code possible and let
other write small routines to convert from RAW or DXF to whatever other format.
//I have a lot of ideas for user-interface enhancment, for example the way some
of the //buttons operate. I could also create a feature wish-list if you are
interested. The next //time I use it, I'll start keeping a log, and can send
you beta-style reports by email.
please do.
//Where can I find the Windows version? Does it run full-screen at whatever
resolution I //have Windows set? Is there any way to get more resolution in
the DOS version.
You can get the Windows version from the GraphDev forum, BLOBW.ZIP (I think).
I'm trying to get BS to compile with the DOS Extender – if this happens I can
use the SVGA routines.
Alfonso
>>cave fly-by?
No, a cave fly-THRU. There are at least a couple of us on this forum that have
been sufficiently [enlightened] | [brain-damaged] to have the occasional habit
of scuba diving in cave systems in Florida. (Kids, DON'T try this at home! –
without proper training) Ever since starting this 3D hobby I've wanted a way to
build a model of a cave system with all the interconnecting passageways that I
could fly/swim thru. The blob modeler is perfect for this. I just strung
together a series of spheres, then loaded the model into 3DS and inverted the
normals. The biggest problem is detail – even with the blob detail set to the
maximum, there were not nearly enough faces in the model to satisfy me. As I
moved thru, many walls and turns were much to coarse and angular to be
realistic. I will try making a cave in smaller sections, Yost Fractalizing
them, and piecing them together.
Applying materials to a branching structure like this is also challenging.
Without mapping coordinates algorithmically applied, I think the best thing for
me to try is one of the new natural material SXP's.
BTW, I ran into one little thing when transferring blob meshes to 3DS
– the coordinate systems between the two programs seem to be
different, and models come into 3DS not only rotated, but mirrored.
Not a problem, just a curiosity.
>>compile with the DOS Extender…
That would be great. One thing may be a problem for 3DS users though.
The DOS version you have now works from the DOS shell within 3DS,
making it efficient to shell out to refine a model, then exit back to
3DS to continue working. If going to a DOS Extender version would
prohibit this from working, users with a single (non-networked)
machine would have to exit 3DS completely to run Blob, which is a
pain in the neck. The reason I mention this is that the DPS PAR
software recently went from DOS only to Pharlap DOS extender and now
won't run in the shell, an ability I miss.
BTW, I did have one problem running the Blob/RAW23DS combo from the
3DS shell – after several refinements of a model 3DS suddenly locked
up on me in the middle of a render. This has never happend to me
before, so there may be some incompatiblity here anyway. (It also
may be some problem with my specific system) I'll try to duplicate
that also the next time I get to play.
Your application sounds interesting – I have a PXP that I
wrote called NOISE.PXP which can add noise to an object. I posted an
image here that shows that effect. I think the file is called
NOISE.ZIP or something like that (you can also use my ID number to
search thru the files). With it you can add the noisy effect of the
surface to the cave models. Let me know if you want to check it out.
I'm trying to get the code to write 3DS files from within BS.
I'll keep you posted. The next step would be just to write a Blob
modeler PXP. We'll see.
>>I've wanted a way to build a model of a cave system with all the
interconnecting passageways that I could fly/swim thru.
Why? Are you trying to create your own cave system or copy an
existing one? The real problem with copying is the enormous data
required from the servey. I've been down this passage, so to speak,
before. I've used lofted shapes. But, my purpose was to create a 3D
god-like view of the cave without the earth encasing it. I've done
this with Little River Cave. While not perfect, what I did is pretty
close to what's there.
Philosophy: It is my opinion that 3D technology should not attempt to
replace what is more accurately and easily described by actual video
of the same thing. If the purpose is to document what's there then
viewing the actual video will convey much more than a graphic
representation of the data with a whole lot less work. The use of 3D
display should only be used when it can enhance or improve or better
explain what is there and not be used just because the technology
exists. If the purpose is to create a fantasy cave from ones
imagination as in a VR cave diving game (hey! what a great idea) then
the development of this technology as a fly through the cave would
have a place.
In reality the caves of North Florida are predominately established
in major layers of the karst. This makes them horizontal systems at
one depth after an initial desent from the surface. eg. Peacock cave
60-70 ft. Little River @100ft. Devils Eye at 100ft. Madison Blue at
100 ft. Bonnet at 20 ft. Eagles Nest at 270 ft. etc. This makes for
a rather boreing 3D graphic, especially when done to scale. On the
other hand, 3D display would be an enhancement for the Peacock III
cave system where the branch from the main tunnel drops through a
restriction into a chamber where the floor of this room goes through
a bedding plane opening up to a new chamber (Hendley's Castle) that
drops to a depth of 200 ft. in a beautiful setting with a large
broken rock maze. It ends at another very tight restriction at 200
ft. and hasn't been pushed beyond this. Nearby, physically is the
"lower-lower room" of Orange Grove cave. I'm sure you've been in
the main cavern. Through the breakdown in the floor there is a tight
(side mount) passage that cork screws to a bedding plane restriction
at a depth of 130 ft. (same as the one in nearby Hendley's) Through
the bedding plane there is a circular torus shapped room that was
described by the late Sheck Exley as 180-200 ft. depth with further
passages going deeper. I have not been through this bedding plane. It
is a zero vis. 50 ft. restricted passage. Nobody has ever connected
the Castle with the Lower-Lower room of Orange Grove Cave. A precise
survey in 3D might be the way to help locate the connection if it
exists.
Mark Miers had developed a coordinate conversion IPAS to assist me in
the transfer of survey data to 3DS data to create the actual
geometry. I haven't had the time to do any further work in this area
but this does look promising as opposed to manually scaling the data
in 3DS. You may wish to try this as opposed to the Blob modeler. If
you need some survey data just holler. You could try it on the
'Castle' data for me.
Alfonzo,
Thanks for the cool program.
I do remember your post about blob.02a thanks for the reminder I will DL it as
soon as I am done reading.
I like the new cone/tube componants.
I find it difficult to select componants that occupy the same space
Question 1: when building a blob out of multiple componants it seems that
increasing the number of componants
of a blob affects how fine of a mesh is rendered by the blob. Is this true?
Question 2: do blobs affect other blobs as the componants do?
ME
//Alfonzo, Thanks for the cool program.
thank you for the comments!
//I do remember your post about blob.02a thanks for the reminder I will DL it
as soon as I //am done reading.
//I like the new cone/tube componants.
//I find it difficult to select componants that occupy the same space
I fixed the selection bug – it works now.
//Question 1: when building a blob out of multiple componants it seems that
increasing the //number of componants of a blob affects how fine of a mesh is
rendered by the blob. Is //this true?
There are some helpful hints when creating blob objects:
1) if you need to create a complex object, try breaking it into smaller
components:
for example, someone created a baby, and it was done by creating the head
first, then saving that blob, then creating the body, saving that data and so
on. Don't create the whole object.
2) This is done because the more objects you have, the less detail they tend to
have. You can always increase the detail level by clicking on DETAIL.
//Question 2: do blobs affect other blobs as the componants do?
blobs do not affect other blobs – this feature is handy in case your building
an object by parts. If for example you already did the body of a character,
you can now start a new blob and build an arm….that way you can see how it
will look attached on the given body.
Alfonso
Max,
<< Have you tried the freeware metaballs modeler Blob02 >>
Yes, except it does not create morphable blobs. 🙁
Mark
Mark
<< it does not create morphable blobs.>>
Do the commercialy available metaball modelers do this
ME
Max,
<< Do the commercialy available metaball modelers do this >>
I have no idea.
Mark
The question is that to create morphable metaballs you dont need a
metaball modeller but an animator. Whatever motion you apply to the
generating sphere becomes a "liquid" movement of the surface. If you
want to see this just get MBALL.ZIP from IPAS USAGE library . You will
find inside to animations of metaballs in motion. One is a litlle character
walking. The entire character is made with 30 spheres that
are freely moved in the 3D Studio keyframer applying hierarchies and
everything. After passing through MetaReyes AXP what you get is a uniform
skin changing over time. The important point about this is that there
is no deformation of mesh to animate the character because the resulting
topology is AD-HOC for every frame.
– Javi
There is a Metaball modeller and animator already in the market. It is
the MetaReyes product . If you want to take a look get the file MBALL.ZIP
in the IPAS USAGE library . The actual version of the program is 1.01b
with an upcoming 2.0 version in March 95.
– Javi Reyes (R.D.E infografica)
I think it would be very helpful if you could upload more info on the product,
perhaps with some screen grabs of the interface.
BILL
There is a description of the product in MBALL.ZIP file in IPAS USAGE
library. The aplication has different modules.
MSHAPE.PXP – Metaball modeller.
MANIM.AXP – Metaball animation
MASIGN.PXP – Assignment of densities
MSHADE.SXP – Metaball shader.
tell me your impresions …
-Javi
I have your Metaballs modeler and it is very fast and easy to use. I had a bit
of confusion when installing onto my slave machines, but after a couple of
tries everything works.
I would like to map a texture onto the animated metaball, so far no luck. I
created the metaball texture as specified in the manual, but it seems to ignore
any textures applied in the materials editor other than your special .sxp.
I was hoping to add a painted face image to a metaball head. If I could combine
this an animated texture map with a metaball surface, that would be great.
Andrew.
Hello Andrew.
The question of mapping is a problem in animated metaballs, because
the topology of the object changes over time. Actual version doesnt
support mapping animated metaballs. In release 2.0 (coming sooon!)
I will give the possibility of "auto mapping" (something like spherical
mapping from the surface normal). Other features of release 2.0 will
be:
* Faster recursive generation.
* Hierarchies of mixing.(i.e. to avoid the fingers
of the hand to mix to each other)
* Multilayering. (i.e. Several characters with
different materials)
* Improved shader.
Merry Xmas !
– Javi
Javiar
Im enjoying version 1. However I like to use bump maps so it would be useful to
find some alternative to the present material limitation in this area. Maybe
MSHADE.SXP could fit in any of the slots since they are seldom all in use.
Another thing, if a model goes over the vert limit It crashes 3DS.
Thanks, Ed
Hello Edward.
I think you will have to wait for release 2.0 for new improvements in textures.
I am posting a message to Andrew Mcdonald with more information about the
subject. Anyway that wont be a long waiting cause release 2.0
is almost here!!
thanks
-Javi
PD.- Which release of MetaReyes are you using now exactly ?
The examples (mercury blobs and the cartoon guy) are impressive but
limited, especially as examples of more real world type stuff. The ad
illustration of the Egyptian monument was a big selling point for me.
Would it be possible to upload that project or a portion of it as a
learning tool for those of us that are interested in very controlled
use of metaballs?
Hello Edward The usefullness of the examples is always subjetive. We
thought that cartoon alike animation and liquids were two good
examples. Regarding Abbu Simbel we cant give the model because it
belongs to the TV2 Television Station from Madrid. The image you know
is part of a 10 seconds "bumper" of that channel and they plan to
make others with that leit-motiv. two weeks ago someone wanted to
purchase the 3Ds project for a lot of money but the answer had to be
the same. Anyway I have a good new for the people that like good 3Ds
objects because we will upload some really fine objects in the mesh
library soon. There will be a F-14 , a Harrier and many other 1st
quality models.
Thanks, any examples will be greatly appreciated.
Ed
>> The usefullness of the examples is always subjetive.
>> We thought that cartoon alike animation and liquids
>> were two good examples.
Are you talking about an upload on Compuserve? If so, can you tell me the
name of the file where the animation is to be found?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks for the info on version 2.0.
Would the "auto mapping" feature allow me to place a word or image on a
metaball?
The hierarchy and multi-layering features sound very useful.
Metaballs just paid for itself on a countdown animation that I did for someone,
but they were hoping to have the numbers stretch with the metaball.
Thanks,
Andrew.
Hi Andrew!
Yes , you will be able to texture moving metaballs with "auto"
mapping with images or logos. The result will be like something
textured over a liquid surface. Due to the topologicall peculiarities
of metaballs my main effort in development will be centered around 3D
textures. The idea will be to have diferent 3D textures for diferent
metaballs, and the result will be a soft dissolve over the surface
from one texture to another. Lets suppose a dog made with MetaReyes.
In the spheres that define the back of the animal you assign a 3D
texture with a horizontal pattern suggesting fur. In the legs the
same texture with a vertical pattern and a more or less plain color
for the belly. In the final render you will have soft transitions
among the textured areas.
-Javi
Very cool, Javier… I'm looking forward to seeing what you can do with
metaball texturing!
– G
Hiya Gary! Here I am, working hard in release 2.0 . Regarding
textures, do you remember a work named "Lost Animals" ? There were
some Japanese metaball animations of prehistorical mammals, and all
of them used 3D Interpolated textures. The result was great!
– Javi
>>Lost Animals…
Sure! I'm a huge fan of archeological simulations with 3D graphics,
and that was a great one. If you could pull off their method of 3D
texture interpolation for implicit surfaces, it would be magnificent.
>>Here I am, working hard in release 2.0 .
I wanted to ask about your work in future Metareyes releases. I
wondered if you will include the ability to scale the spheres
non-uniformly like Softimage's Metaclay feature. The other really
useful (and mandatory for me before I buy the product) is the ability
to use heirarchy for blobbing action. That is, if palm is parent to
the fingers, and fingertips are children to the fingers, then the
hand can make a fist without becoming a big blob. Is this possible
now? Or in release 2?
Great news on upcoming texture methods for v2.0. I just came back from CES in
Las Vegas, don't know if anyone else was there, but my metaballs animation was
playing on the front stage of the Casio booth for 4 days.
Andrew.
Hi Andrew,
<< but my metaballs animation was playing on the front stage of the Casio booth
for 4 days. >>
That's great! 🙂 congrats..
jonas
Hi Andrew.
Congratulations for your success in Las Vegas!.
-Javi
Javier, I have purchased the metaball modeller and find CREATING
smooth objects very easy, however I cannot get the example
animations or any animations of my own to render. #ds simply
exhibits some garbage pixels on the top of the screen and locks up. I
do have release 4. I also have an ATI GPT grphics card. This problem
occurs when rendering animations only. My system is stand alone( no
network and was loaded with the metaballs install disk). Any insight
would be helpful.
Hi steven!
For what you tell me , I think that the Poligon size is set to a very
high value. Try to go to the master sphere (The one that becomes dark
blue during MISOLA process) , MODIFY ATRIBUTES , SETTINGS and readjust the
POLIGON SIZE slider to a lower value. (A size of 10 is good for the examples
animation) . After this you should save the model to disk again
to save with it the new setting.
If this is not the case I would like you to send me a ZIPed copy of
the .3DS file so that I could check by my own . Thank you for your
message .