Software Piracy
42 messages in this thread
Gord;
I sold a package to a guy in Fla. that was on this forum. I presumed that
since I 'talked' to him quite often on the forum that I could go ahead and
just send the software based upon his "check's in the mail" statement. I
was wrong. Of course I suspect that ultimately, I performed a valuable
service for the Amiga Forum since when I began to try to talk him into
sending me the money that he agreed to send, he stopped using CIS!
I certainly don't hold CIS responsible, indeed the thought never crossed my
mind at the time (1986). Amazing how a little common sense can alter a
view? I liked your analogies.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
As someone who sells things on CIS quite frequently, I can state that I
have never sent any product without having a check in hand; I can be
trusted, because it is too easy to trash my rep on the forums where I do
other business if I rip you off. Maybe the sysops could voluntarily open a
'Ripoff' section, where people could bitch about ripoffs and try and get
the deadbeats to either pay up or ship the goods.
Robert,
Nope…neither CIS nor the Amiga Forums will have anything to do
with disputes arising out of "deals" worked out here between members.
Among other things…we have no way of verifying any information
someone may pass on to us.
Don
Robert;
I don't know you but prefer to think that the regulars are honest. The
vast majority of people that I have done business with from CIS have been
outstanding people to deal with. I consider my one bad experience to be
just a reminder.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Bill,
Damn shame about your experiences; I hope you didn't get conned for a lot
of money. I realize the advice is a little late in coming, but here's a
morsel of wisdom I picked up in a college psych class: don't do business
unless it's face-to-face. Seems people are more inclined to cheat you (if
you're buying) or say no to you (if you're selling) if you transact over
the phone or through the mail. You lose all the advantages of being able
to read body language to be able to judge a character (if you're buying)
and of being able to intimidate (if you're selling).
Me, I was lucky: my seller OFFERED to ship the package and let me inspect
it before I sent the money. And I KNOW I can trust MYSELF to pay! 😉
Thanks for the compliments on my analogies.
–Gord
Gord;
It seemed like a lot of money at the time. 🙂
I have probably spent $3000/$4000 dollars on CIS purchases since then and
every one of them has been satisfactory except one other (and its still
pending).
I realize that I am contradicting what you are saying here but, the vast
majority of dealings that I have had as a result of a CIS posting have been
excellent.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Bill, sorry to hear about that bad deal. I recently had my first dealings
with buyting something from someone here in the forum. We reached
agreement, the check was sent and the merchandise immediately returned.
Thus we were both happy. I'd have to say, that as you mentioned, the vast
majority of regular users will uphold their end of a deal, but those very
few who do the bad stuff reall leave a nasty taste in ones mouth.
Randy
Sorry, but the analogies don't fly. If I make obscene phone calls, Ma Bell
WILL get upset about it. If I trade on inside information, the NYSE WILL
(eventually) expel me. If I broadcast fraudulent messages over the
airwaves, the FCC CAN pull my ticket. Everyone seems concerned about the
gripe the purchaser has against the seller, but in fact the purchaser ends
up with a perfectly good, working copy of the software. It's the software
author that gets ripped off. That's what software piracy is about.
Nor do the analogies about checking the title to a car in advance hold up.
The probability that the seller of a car has made an identical copy in
derogation of the rights of the manufacturer are essentially zero. Not so
with software. Almost makes you think kindly about copy protection…
Mike
[Continued]
And conventional theory, at least, holds that the Almighty will keep in
mind what you did in that sunny meadow.
I'm not suggesting that any purchaser has the right to blame CI$. I am
suggesting that CI$ has the right to police the transactions, and no reason
not to do so, if preventing software piracy is a priority.
Mike
They have the right to police transactions, certainly. But they have no
power to do so. If JoeBob sells BettySue a pirated copy of Lattice C, what
is CIS to do? They can't take Betty Sue's word for it against JoeBob's;
even her sending the 'pirate' disks isn't proof in court of law, because
there's no evidence that she got them from JoeBob. The only way CIS could
get proof against somebody would be to set up a sting operation – which
means that THEY would have to buy bunches of software from people. It's
not worth their time. The only people with jurisdiction are the FBI, and I
can't see them getting involved for – at most – a $500 transaction.
They have "the right to refuse service to anyone." They don't have to go
to court any more than Ma Bell does to cut off your phone service.
Mike
Look, Mike, I don't know about you but I would estimate I spend about $50 a
month on CIS. Every dime of that money is profit to them – do you think
they're going to kick me off and kiss $600 per annum bye bye on your
unsupported say-so? It's not an option.
Robert,
re: "Every dime of that money is profit to them…..". Are you serious?
Do you really believe that providing the service costs NO money at all? Or
are you convinced that all of the REST of us should pay for the machines
and people to keep them running so that YOUR money goes to be 'profit' for
CIS?
CIS is an absolutely fixed-cost business, aside from some personnel costs.
(Add 100,000 users, hire three more customer service reps). If I go sign
up my cousin, his userfees add to Compuserve's income and do not add to
their expenses. So kicking off ONE user costs you ALL his or her fees as
profit. Obviously, kicking off 10,000 users is a very different matter;
but we are talking marginal economics here, and any one individual is a
pure profit source.
Robert,
I sure hope you're still in school and not making decisions on which
other people's financial welfare is based. With _my_ luck tho, you're
chief economist for the U.S. Federal government. I haven't heard such
drivel regarding the economics of a business before in my life. No, that's
not true, but the person was under the age of 13 at the time, so I wrote it
off to ignorance.
Vic, if you disagree with me, then argue with me. Don't insult me or use
ad hominem arguments. If I leave CIS, CIS loses my user fees but does not
get to reduce any of its costs, therefore it loses profit.
Ok, I'll argue. Who do you think pays for all the hardware that CIS runs
on? Who do you think pays for all the maintenance people who keep it
running? Who do you think pays for all the modems CIS installs? Are you
getting the picture??
Sure, if you leave CIS loses revenue (and profit). Saying that is a
FAR cry from asserting that YOUR fees are all profit for CIS.
OK, I'll bite. CIS in most cases doesn't pay for the network connection
between your local number and the main system. These connections are
provided by probably telenet or tymnet, and the costs are taken from your
CompuServe connect charges. So at least that portion of your payments
doesn't go to CompuServe at all. Also, the messages you leave take up disk
space, which, to a system like this, has a real cost. Additionally, you'll
have to prove to me that it doesn't increase operating costs (electricity,
maintenance, etc.) for each and every user on the system; i.e. that adding
a user at any given time doesn't increase the use of electricity, decrease
the lifespan of equipment, etc. You imply these assertions, but you
provide no evidence for them.
How is that for an argument?
Craig
Robert,
Using that logic…you drive your car absolutely free between
fillups.
There are costs associated with each and every user. They are
admittedly small…but they do exist. Just a few quick examples…printing
and mailing the CompuServe magazine, monthly billing, diskspace for each
user's private storage area.
Don
How much people spend has has nothing to do with it. When we can prove
that pirating activity is taking place (and this has happened more than a
couple of times), we take action. Those people are no longer on CIS.
Steve
And kudos to you for that – but my post was regarding someone for whom you
had no proof.
Right….what are we supposed to do? Take one person's word over another?
Sorry, but we're not the People's Court around here. If we have proof, we
take action. Any reasonable person would expect that the software they're
getting is the only copy. We expect that people will deal this way with
each other. If we have evidence that we can verify to the contrary, then
we'll do something about it.
Steve
Mike;
I expect CIS to "get upset" if someone posts messages with fradulent intent
on the service. I do not however, hold CIS liable for the messages. Yes,
if CIS were to knowingly and willingly foster such behavior then they
probably should be jointly liable. Market forces would likely do a much
better job with that particular problem than the law however.
Indeed there is sound argument that CIS could claim damages against the
'poster' in such situations and that is without regard to any possible
legal liability that CIS would incur from the posting.
In most cases of illegal activity involving a regulated carrier, the party
using the carrier has broken additional laws by the vary act of using a
regulated carrier for illegal activity.
The carrier should be liable only when they knowingly allow such activity
or fail to take prudent actions to prevent such activity when it is
probable that such activity will be attempted.
The carrier's potential liability is so tied up in opinion that our legal
system should (but usually does not) exhibit great restraint in issuing
judgements against the carrier.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Once again, let me repeat that I am not concerned about legal liability. I
am concerned about ethical responsibility or maybe just good taste and good
citizenship. There are things that are legal that aren't right or fair.
This is a system that tries to run a clean shop, with standards higher than
the gutter or the lowest common denominator. A family place. I'm not
required to have curtains on my windows, carpets on my floor, or nice
furniture in my house. I do it because it's better than not doing it. I'm
just suggesting that there might be a policy here about selling software of
which one has kept an unauthorized copy. For all the fuss that people make
here about a less significant policy like requiring full names, you'd think
we could do something more meaningful in the software area. There's no law
that requires full names, it's just a little more honest. It gives the
place some class. We don't have everyone transacting business under
aliases and assumed names. Would it be too painful to also say there are
to be no sales of bootleg software around here?
Mike
Mike,
I'm really unclear as to what you're looking for here. Do you want the
Amiga Forums to act as a middle man in all transactions initiated from
messages posted here? I don't think that's particularly practical, do you?
If you'd like a statement of policy, I can state that we support the
intellectual property rights of software authors. We do not support nor
promote software theft. I'm not sure what else we can do here.
– BobR
I think that wherever it is here that we say "Full names only, no
profanity, no spitting on the sidewalk, etc." you should add something to
the effect that all software sales that take place through the Classified
section are expected to be bona-fide transfers of the original and all
existing copies of the software and associated documentation in the
possession of the seller.
Mike
P.S. A question: What would the reaction be if someone posted a reply to
a Classified to the effect of "Sending the disks is too much hassle. Just
upload the software to a file and e-mail it to me." Or if someone said in
a classified "If you're in a hurry to get this, I will be happy to upload
the software to a file and e-mail it to you."
Mike…
Most of what you have outlined is covered by clauses in your user
agreement. By using CIS, you agree to comply with that agreement. As such,
CompuServe is basically covered. Any illegalities one might take part in,
and use CIS as a conduit, become the responsibility of the person comitting
these illegalities.
I guess what I'm saying is, there isn't much point posting bulletins with
all kinds of rules about software piracy, because it's already covered in
your user agreement. It would kind of be like posting a sign on the
sidewalks of Anytown USA reading "no theft allowed". Stealing software, no
matter how it's done, is still theft. Posting a notice saying you aren't
allowed to steal software isn't going to deter people from doing it, if
they really want to. The moral mindset of your average software thief is
such that he/she isn't doing any harm, and a posted notice won't change
that attitude.
If they are going to be dumb enough to actually USE CompuServe as a conduit
for software theft activities, they will be caught eventually.
Jim
– Signed, sealed, Whapped!
Mike;
There is nothing ethically wrong with the last sentence "…. I will be
happy to upload the software to a file ……" as long as the complete
transaction takes place and no intent to defraud exists.
Is there anything wrong with a dealer giving me a copy of a commercial
program when he accepts my order for 'the real thing'? I think not. There
is no intent to defraud anyone, everyone that should receive fees… does.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
As long as the seller then destroys the original disks, this is ethically
OK (I dunno about legally).
Robert;
Not sure just which message you were replying to…. Although this is just
opinion:
Suppose that we agree that I will sell you xyz program for $10 and that I
will first transfer xyz program to you electronically and then mail you the
disks and manual. I believe that would be a legal contract and also
ethical.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Oh, I thought you meant ULing the file(s) in lieu of physically
transferring the disks. Doing both would be OK.
Robert;
Yes, I probably was not too clear when I first stated that.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Mike,
Things we're aware of, and can prove…we do take action on. Using
your example…it's obvious when someone isn't using their full name. On
the other hand, someone selling originals and keeping copies isn't obvious
to anyone but the buyer and seller.
When we can prove software piracy…we take action. When we see
things that appear to be software piracy…we warn or ask for
clarification.
Don
Mike;
It IS illegal to even offer to make a fradulent business transaction on
this service. Your (and of course everyone elses') user agreement makes it
clear that CIS will not stand for illegal, fradulent, and even 'in poor
taste' behavior.
Of all the subjects discussed on this forum, software piracy is probably
the only one that achieves nearly universal agreement. And the areas of
disagreement seem to be primarily with appropriate punishment.
If your concern is that someone thinks that software piracy 'is ok' on CIS,
please point them out to me (and most anyone else here). I would be more
than happy to assist in certifying that such behavior is not acceptable
here. Indeed, I really prefer the term 'theft' even though most people are
familiar with 'software piracy' because the latter term seems to 'water
down' what is actually done.
If I understand what you are saying then I am a appalled! Are you saying
that you (or anyone else) has the impression that selling software
illegally on the forum is OK? That users of the forum don't care?
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Bill,
Cash up front. It's the only way to do business and want to stay in
business.
(unless you sell cars.)
– Lorenz K. Sievers –
– Lorenz K. Sievers –
Lorenz;
Sometimes the risk is worth taking. I usually will go with my 'gut
feeling' and take a chance on someone. I have probably been 'burned' less
than a dozen times so far and probably have not lost more that a couple of
$K (out the outside est). OTOH many of the risks turned out to be more
valuable beyond my wildest dreams… because I was willing to risk.
I suppose that it is much like trust in general. Is it better not to trust
and thus never be disappointed? Just one trust that validates itself can
mean more than many disappointments.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
I've bought and sold a lot of stuff online. I've always recieved what I
purchased. I did sell one program to a guy who took over six months to pay
me, but he eventually did. (About 20 email letters later…) The next time
he wanted to buy something from me, I asked for money up-front. Funny–he
decided he didn't need the program anymore.
But still–out of about 15 transactions, I've only had one bad one so far.
…Denny Atkin
Bill,
Speaking from an experiential point of view, I agree. I've invested in
projects and bonds… many times against the advice of my CPA
brother-in-law. I've been burned and I've made money. My point is – that
in my do as I say and not as I am always willing to do way of living – I'd
much prefer to see what I'm getting before I buy it.
But, I'm a risk-taker also… I love Vegas… I'll buy an occasional
lottery ticket… I'll buy into the office football pool. These are risks
where I know there is a chance I might see a return, but most likely won't.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if I enter into a financial
situation involving risk, I need to be ready to take responsibility if and
when I take it in the shorts.
– Lorenz K. Sievers –
Lorenz;
I agree. There are those things that you do that are done primarily
because they are a risk and others because the potential for financial
return is not the issue.
When the issue is potential loss, then each person has to reach their own
'comfort level' while attempting to strike an agreement.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
When I bought my 3000 (used) from someone here on CIS, I first faxed a
contract(-like thing) that basically said that I'd wire him the $$, and
he'd ship the machine insured within a certain time frame. It may not
have been legally enforcable (though a lawyer at work looked it over and
though it was), but it was something in writing. For that amount of
money, I couldn't just send it to him and hope he'd send the machine,
regardless of how many time I had 'talked' to him here.
-SLH
(Turns out he's a really nice guy who been very helpful, but that may not
always be the case).
Scott;
I agree that the amount at risk has to influence the caution. There are a
couple of people here whose word would be sufficient for me even on
something as significant as an Amiga 3000 (but not many).
-bill/ARS KB7LX
I don't send until I have cash in hand–just a policy and it works. Also, I
have when getting something from someone else asked for insured COD–this
is not really enough of a guarantee that what's inside the box is what you
bagained for, but it has worked for me so far.
—Suz—