#Kodak PhotoCD?
87 messages in this thread
I just went through hell trying to get color photos into a 4-color process
printed piece. What do I need to read PhotoCD files and when will they be
available (i.e. CD-ROM drive which supports PhotoCD discs or a CD-ROM
driver which reads PhotoCD format and a PhotoCD file format loader for
ImageMaster)?
-Jerry
Jerry,
You have to have a CDROM-XA drive to read PhotoCD disks, and if you want
to read multi-session PhotoCD, you will have to wait a while – the CDROM
drives that read multisession will not be released until after ComDex,
which is later this month. At least, this is what I've been reading on
CDROM forum.
—Betty
A call to Toshiba CDRom division got me this info. My XM3301 drive can be
upgraded to multisession Photo-CD compatibility by adding a new ROM and a
small circuit board that allows recognition of the blank spaces between
recording sessions. Obviously the software must change too. Toshiba has
updated driver software for PeeCee compatibles only and only for two SCSI
controllers cards. Oh yes, the upgrade cost is $99. No help for us Amiga
weenies.
I talked to a very pleasant fellow at Kodak who informed me that they had
developer toolkits for PhotoCD for Mac and Peecee only but they were
planning a UNIX version Real Soon Now. He was receptive to Amiga users if
there was a real call for support.
Mark… can you give the phone # for the "Toshiba CDRom division" you
called?
Mike,
I have that number at work. I'll leave you a message tomorrow. I
actually have two numbers there. One is for technical help and info. The
other is to order products and get a RGO# for repair and upgrades.
Thanks Mark. How's the spring '93 season shaping up for you guys?
Mike,
Here are the numbers for Toshiba CD-Rom division. For tech info call
714-455-0407. For buying something like an upgrade or accessorie or
getting an RMA# call 714-583-3129.
Spring had better come next year as I have really loaded up. As for the
grill parts, we are unloading. I have decided to drop CGP and am closing
out all inventory at cost. Know anyone that is interested? I don't think
it will last very long at the present pace. We will be concentrating more
on OPE parts which is growing faster for us.
Thanks for the numbers, Mark.
There is a small chain of independent grill dealers (each owns his store)
that you might be able to dump some stuff to. I'm out of town right now,
but call information for GAS & GRILLS in N. Canton, call and ask for Ralph
(the owner) and explain that I told you to call. (Ralph is a good friend of
mine, and a neighbor)
If the inventory is really quite large, let me know, and I'll help you get
in touch with either the folks at Just Closeouts and/or Consolidated (Odd
Lots).
I assume you've called Woody?
I'm glad to hear you're approaching spring with optimism… most of my
customers feel the same way. (keeping my fingers crossed!)
Ralph's # at Gas & Grills is 493-4781
Hmmmm….. Wonder if the Toshiba XM3201 can be upgraded with a ROM as well?
That would be very nice. And I just received Toshiba's latest drivers
yesterday with the SCSI kit for my toshiba notebook. Basically, it is an
Adaptek product, made by Adaptek for Toshiba.
Betty
Betty,
Sorry, The XM3201 series cannot be upgraded for use with Photo-CD. This
is according to both Toshiba and a person I spoke with at Kodak. It is
still a nice/fast drive. I have an XM3201 connected to an Adaptec
controller on my UNIX system at work.
Oh, well….. I was not especially interested in Photo-CD at the moment
anyway – just like to know what is possible. Thanks.
Betty
I got off Genie a SEA file for the MAC with Patches into Photoshop for
Photo CD MIDGARD GRAPHICS
Does that mean that you can put a Photo-CD disk on you MAC/CDRom and load
pics? Or, do you need additional driver software from the drive/adapter
supplier? I'm told that the format on those discs is proprietary and can
only be read by software generated by a toolkit from Kodak. Of course
Adobe might have used the toolkit do generate their patches to Photoshop.
I have no idea how Adobe came up with the Patches for Photo-CD for
Photoshop. As an Aside the Kodak rep on Genie says the new Prefw3orma {600
from Apple supports Photo CD disks MIDGARD GRAPHICS
I just read a bit about Apple and Photo-CD in Byte yesterday. Ver 1.5 of
Quicktime supports Photo-CD on a Mac. This means that any application that
can load a PICT image can load Photo-CD images. Apparently Quicktime does
the dirty-work of loading and translating the image to PICT format.
INCORRECT,You have to run the Photo CD image Thru the NEW version of
Quicktime or Photoshop etc to allow it to be Converted to PICT format.
MIDGARD GRAPHICS
If that is not what I said then I don't know what I said. You WOULD have
to run the Photo-CD through the new version of Quicktime ( or Photoshop).
The release indicated that any software that used PICT format could then
be used. Apparently Quicktime now can change Photo-CD images to PICT,
doncha think?
If Quicktime Automatically converts Photo-CD images to PICT format that'd
be GREAT!!!!BTW I recieved a nice Call last night from Kodak asking me if I
recieved my info Package and if I had any questions.As Feared no plans to
support the Amiga at this time,But at least MS-DOS machines and MAC's have
dropped in price substantially so it is somewhat feasable for me to buy a
Clone/software/CD-ROM for the Express purpose of using Photo-CD's Also
found out only 2 Places in Manhatten currently support Photo CD imaging and
1 in Long Island City,ths from the Kodak Rep.MIDGARD GRAPH
Hmm.. if they supply the C routines in the developer's package, it makes it
pretty much computer independent, at least for reading and parsing the
images.
-larry
Gee, Kodak has NOT called me back to see if I rec'd my info pack and I
haven't gotten it either. Grrr. It is good to know the prices have been
lowered.
Here is what Byte said:"if you have a Mac and a PhotoCD- capable CD-ROM
drive, you can use any application that can open a PICT image to open and
play a series of PhotoCD photographs through Quicktime 1.5."
…..Mark
The Kodak rep is available online here on CIS, via CMail, or in the DTP or
PHOTO Forums:
Paul McAfee [Kodak] 70007,6241
Thanx Paul,I also talk to a gent named Steve on Genie from Kodak MIDGARD
GRAPHICS
My name is Michael :/
Photoshop has drop-ins for loading, modifying and saving code. The next rev
of the Mac system software will handle Photo CD automatically, meaning Mac
applications don't need to do anything to handle Photo CD, if they handle
PICT loading, and they all do.
I keep reading the blabber here in the Adobe forum and Photography –
Digital Imaging. It's my understanding that the Adobe Photoshop plug-in has
been recalled as it doesn't work right. Do you know something special here?
I haven't used it myself…
We'll if Adobe can't get a plug-in going it makes you wonder – or does it?
Anyway, I don't know what to think of PhotoCD. A good photographer *might*
get 1-2 good pix off a roll of 36. If you put that on a CD you've
essentially recreated the ole shoebox syndrome. Now you've got stacks of
CD's with junk on them.
But Kodak has always made much more money from poor and mediocre
photographers, than from professionals… 🙂 For these few years when
high-rez scanners aren't cheap or common, Photo CD might be very attractive
to corporate and graphics design people. They can work with technology
they probably already understand. It's compatible with the computer. And
Kodak has found another way to sell more film.
I dunno, I managed to accumulate a couple shoeboxes of CD-ROMs with
megabytes of things I can't find, with few gems, and it didn't take
anything new-fangled like Photo CD to cause that to happen. 🙂
But Mi'lady you don't have to have the Photo's Put Ontpo CD first,you can
get them Devoloped then pick and choose the ones you want put on CD if I'm
not mistaken…… MIDGARD GRAPHICS
Margaret,
PhotoCD will hold around 100 images on a disk. There is no
_requirement_ to put ALL the pictures on a roll on the CD. The actual
services provided by the people (labs) who have the ability to write
PhotoCDs haven't been decided. Remember, Kodak is licensing the
technology and possibly some hardware and software, but I don't think they
really care HOW the decisions of what frames go on the CD are made. If
_I_ were a lab catering to pros and semi-pros, I'd certainly let the
customer tell me WHICH frames to put on the CD.
Thats LOVELY,I hope CBM has the SENSE to pay the $695 for Kodaks Devolopers
Kit of "C" routines and adds it to a upcoming version of WB and burns it
onto the Chipset of CDTV.MIDGARD GRAPHICS
The way things look right now, I doubt that photo-cd will be available for
the Amiga for a while. In fact, my *personal* opinion is that photo-cd
will be a complete flop, but that IS just my opinion.
PhotoCD isn't "just" a file format. It's a disk format, and most CD drives
on the Amiga can't read them – that's right, the _drives_, not the driver
software, although THAT can't read them, either.
Add to that the development costs and the odds of the format flopping, and
I think you have a loser.
If Photo-CD takes off, we'll support it. But not until then – the inventor
of PhotoCD has made it entirely too difficult to be profitable.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben:
Mark Sterling reported yesterday that Toshiba is making roms available for
at least some of their CD Rom Drives, that _will_ enable them to handle
Photo-CD (and multisession Photo-CD). So, it sounds like we _do_ have (or
will have) the hardware… how about being the first (as usual) with the
s/w?
Oh… and are we any closer to TIFF loader and saver PI's for IM?
Mike,
The problem is not just the hardware. Kodak uses a proprietary file and
disc format for Photo-CD. They sell a developer's toolkit for making
drivers and loading the image format but you don't get any source code.
They sell PeeCee and Mac toolkits with a UNIX version slated for the near
future. There are reportedly no plans for an Amiga version unless they
hear a lot of noise. I made my noise with them BTW. Ben says the toolkit
is expensive to boot.
Mark… is there an 'electronic mail' means of "making noise" or do we
need to phone & send letters & cinnamon cats?
There might be an electronic means but I don't know the number or address.
I do have an phone number for Kodak Photo-CD info. 1-800-242-2424 Ext.77.
We're testing it – it seems to be 100%. But its the biggest PI we've done
to date, so we're being cautios with it.
As for having the drives to read it, now all you need is support from the
filesystem people so that the files appear normally. From there, yes, we
would support it.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
"…the filesystem people…" like the people under the stairs?
Did you ignore my question regarding TIFF PI's or just miss it?
I think YOU missed it. :^) Autopilot probably split the message. It's
done, we're testing it.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Oh, yeah, I did see that… thought you were talking about the prior
subject. Thanks… _CAN'T WAIT!_
Ben
Are you saying that there is no need for a rom upgrade or something like
that
i have a toshiba xm3201b running under AsimCDFS. thanks
michel
Ah, *I* didn't say anything – I think you missed. Look back and see who it
is you were trying to reply to.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Michel,
Are talking about upgrading your XM3201B to work with Photo-CD? If so
there is not upgrade path according to Toshiba and Kodak. The XM3301
series can be upgraded but is a very different drive.
yeah that's what i was asking (xm3201b)
Michel,
Sorry. Still, the XM-3201 is a good drive. Most computer peripherals
are semi-obsolete before the warranty has expired.
Someone told me that the 3201 cannot be upgraded to run PhotoCD – it takes
the 33xx series to be upgraded for that.
Betty
I was pretty ho-hum about Photo-CD, particularly because I saw it as being
marketed to the home consumer which I thought was a real loser of an idea.
While trying to do this full color piece, I talked to some people from a
local color photo lab. They were going stark raving bonkers over Photo-CD!
They see it as the Holy Grail of professional photography. They think this
is going to be the breakthrough which brings professional photographers
into the digital domain. I have started following the photography forum
and they now have section 5 devoted to Photo-CD. I have been doing digital
image manipulation for so long that I forget that for anyone just
discovering the capabilities, Photo-CD could seem like a technological
marvel. Kind of like MS-DOS users discovering Windows.
If Photo-CD does catch on, it will be a very good solution for archiving
and bringing color photos into DTP documents. I'm not ready to give up my
Amiga yet, but I don't love it enough to shut myself out of business over
it. Maybe I can get something like AMAX or Emplant to read Photo-CD files
and convert them over.
Well, I'll tell you something – Photo-CD quality is so far below
professional film capabilities that I can't, for the life of me, imagine a
professional photographer giving it the time of day, much less treating it
seriously. Further, as it is a technology that tends to empower the end
user a great deal more than in the past, I would think that professionals
will resist it quite strongly. Not that I think they'll need to – from
where I sit, it looks like almost as badly conceived as pen-based
computers, with about as large a market – meaning almost none.
Just my opinion, of course.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
As a Photo Tech Prof and a very enthusiastic Amiga owner I think
PhotoCD compatibility for yor s/w would be yet another GREAT first
on the amiga ( oh man ). 🙂
I think PhotoCD is great and I've seen very little besides the specs.
It is the NEAR future and Kodak will get alot of help from others.
As a consumer product it is meant mainly as a video display device
and seems a natural for Toasters but I havent even heard this
mentioned. Pan and zoom an image with no image loss.
You'd probably be amazed at the quality a 3000 x 2000 res image can
be if it starts with a good scan.
Later
No, I wouldn't be amazed. However, it sounds like YOU would be amazed at
the pixel equivalant density of a large film format camera, something most
professional photographers have and use regularly. I've done enlargements
out of a section of a large format negative you couldn't even hope for
from a 4k square image – the limits are the camera & lens (which if you
have a good setup aren't significant) and the photographer. It's very hard
to actually use all the dynamic range and resolution of the film in that
format.
Here's how you can conceptualize the pixel relationships: Figure a pixel
to be about the size of a medium-sized molecule, then multiply by 4
inches. Makes "3000" look positively shabby, doesn't it?. Also keep in
mind that the accuracy on a per "pixel" basis for film is very, very, very
high, and that photo-cd uses a lossy, compressed format so that those 3k
pixels that it DOES have aren't even as good as they could be.
All of a sudden, photo-cd doesn't look like much on the professional
level. For consumers, sure, the rez is fine – but the price and
accessability are currently (in my opinion) severe limiting factors – and
I say again, I think it hasn't got a chance.
On the other hand, MSDOS and Microsoft Windows are doing fine, so what do
I know. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
What do I know? I know I say nearly the same thing about JPEG for video
applications, and everyone tells me I'm crazy. But I do see the "Masked
Engineer" in TV Technology saying the same thing: these compression schemes
will bite us on the butt, eventually. For people who fight tooth and nail
for bandwidth, be them videots or photographers, I can't imagine that any
new introduction of loss or error would be accepted.
But as I said in my previous message, Kodak makes its money from the casual
photographer, not the professional.
I guess I fit into that "fight tooth and nail for bandwidth" crowd pretty
clearly. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Magazines and newspapers are going bonkers over Photo CD. Makes archiving
and storage incredibly easy.
Remember that Photo CD uses standard film rather than digital cameras, so
you can retain the high-quality film as well.
Photo CD is going to be a successful product, and it looks like
Commodore's going to miss yet another opportunity, as I think they share
your view of its potential.
I don't think it's Commodore's lack of interest. I think it's Phillips
unwillingness to license the technology to CBM.
Steve
Phillips has nothing to say about it
> Phillips has nothing to say about it
Wanna bet?
🙂
-larry
Kodak licenses the technology. It's freely available to anyone who wants
to pay the $$$. Those I've talked to at CBM don't seem too excited about
the format…
Yup the Devolopers kit for Photo CD's from Kodak is $695 and includes "C"
routines to read and manipulate tjhe images and allows you to add these
routines into your own software.They are currently only avail for the MAC
and IBM/Clones at the moment tho I think the MAC routines could be fiddled
with to get em to work on the Amiga but I'm not 100% sure on that.MIDGARD
GRAPHICS
Well,
*if* the consumers agree with the magazines – I'll be happy to limp along
with it.
But I'd note that pen-based computers flopped. DAT tape decks flopped.
CD-I flopped. The Amiga has even flopped, if you compare it to the PC or
the Mac.
There is no promise that because the mags think something is cool, it'll
do well. Witness your notebook review, eh?
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I thought sales on Notebook had picked up and we were going to see a
Notebook II.
Oh, they have – and you will – but the review in Compute drew what
amounted to a resounding silence.
Word of mouth is making NB sell a little faster all the time.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
Well, NoteBook is listed as one of the "must have" programs in my book
which comes out next month. Hopefully that will generate a call or two.
🙂
Yes – I hope so too. I'd hate to think you were whisling in the wind…
let me know when it does come out. I won't know since Compute, when I can
find it, doesn't have the Amiga section.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
I just re-read your messgae.
"Book" ???
Who's publishing it, and where can I get it?
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
It's "Denny Atkin's Best Amiga Tips and Secrets" from COMPUTE Books. It
should be out in mid-December. I'll post info when it's available.
One of the appendices is my personal "must have" list. Notebook's one of
the choices.
The jury is still out on DAT tape drives. They are certainly not in the
'flop' department yet. We sell about as many DAT drives as Exabuyes, for
example.
-larry
As data/backup drives, you mean. Yeah, I believe that – I was speaking as
a consumer; DATs havent even made it in pro musician's studios because of
the built in degradation they have. Sorta like JPEG for audio. :^)
How many people do you know that have a DAT drive on their stereo? Not oo
many, I'll betcha.
With things like DSP-based 16-bit recording possible (for instance, the
Sunrise board I've been drooling over), I am sure I'll never bite for a
DAT drive in MY studio.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben have you seen the DCC decks from Tascam,look quite nice and no
"NOTCHING" nonsense al DAT
I've seen the ads – that's all I know, though – yet. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ahh..you were speaking of audio, for which I have little use, and less
knowledge. It wouldn't surprise me that DAT doesn't sell well in tha audio
market, though.
This little exchange makes me wonder if you are looking at PhotoCD in the
same light; as a consumer photo product to replace the old standby photo
album. If so, then I think you may be missing a major point about it.
PhotoCD, assuming the service is available to put pictures on a CD, can be
looked at as a VERY cost effective way to get pictures into your computer.
Consider that with the appropriate drive, one may use it for CDROM, audio,
and PhotoCD applications, effectively reducing the cost of the device by
splitting its usefulness. Compare the cost of a high end colour scanner to
a partial cost of a CDROM drive, and even including the cost to have the
pictures written to the PhotoCD, you can see that for any but the most
deamnding users, the PhotoCD option is a winner.
-larry
Well, I'll tell you what. I'll wait and see – because I just can't picture
it, pun intended.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Oh well…
Maybe ASDG will be the first to bring PhotoCD to the amiga.
$700 doesnt seem like alot to me for to the developers kit.
PhotoCD will sell a lot of the new crop of CDROM XA drives,
unfortunately to Mac and PC pros.
Ive wondered about the possibility of useing some of the PC
s/w (PC Access) on the amiga with a PC emulator. There are dos
vers. of this s/w but not sure if it could access a CD on the
Amiga.
Does anyone really use PC emulators? There are definately alot
of BB users. I tried to get the s/w from Kodak and they said
they would send it right out, but I never received it. Maybe they
expected me to pay for it, but never asked for money…
Glad to finally see some intrest in PhotoCD in the Amiga comunity.
Later
John,
Well, it won't run on my system using an MsDos emulator, hardware or
software, because I don't run either.
-larry
Well, I was interested, until I read a message from another member that
seems to say that Kodak is keeping the format proprietary, even to the
developers.
-larry
Actually, I think it'd be a great thing for ASDG to do. :^) Encourage
them, why don't you? <grinning widely>
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Kodak is SWAMPED with requests for Photo CD info,according to the Tech who
called me to ask if I recieved my Info pack and answered all my questions
Be patient you will eventually recieve the info.To speed the process ALWAYS
include a Compnay name(even if you have to make one up hahahaha) They will
be much more willing to speed things up for a Company than an individual.
Ben,
Using IM 9.14 and when I try to print the file B1B.JPG (AmigaArts), I
usually end up with a crash or lockup on my Amiga. Have tried several
other images and have seen no problems – just this image does it. Awful
darn sure it isn't my driver. Went back a few versions, still get a
lockup. Was able to get it to print a couple of times, and it did not
come out correctly – once had streaks going length wise on the page
(horizontal is held in same aspect as screen). Another time the image in
the center was blurred out and couldn't see it. The first time it may
have came out correctly, but was printing at 600 dpi mode but the printer
was set at 300 dpi via front panel, so only got a quarter of the image.
IM was locked up after each print. Once it never even managed to make the
print.
73, Kelly
Kelly,
Not sure why this was directed at me.
-larry
Yep, the mag's & rag's have been going bonker's over Photo CD. If nothing
else Kodak will force the public into believing that Photo CD is the only
way to go, just as Microsoft has duped the public into believing that
Windows is the best OS on the planet 8^)
What I meant about mags is that they love USING Photo CD. It makes stock
art and photo archival a snap. And if the professional world starts USING
Photo CD a lot, that should channel down into consumer sales as well.
Ben,
I'm not so sure the quality is "so far below" professional film
quality. Those slides are being scanned at 2048×3072 pixels. A 35mm
slide has an image size of 24x36mm, so that works out to 85.333 pixels/mm.
When I was doing 'fine resolution' 35mm stuff, the 'standard' was
Panatomic-X (no longer made, <sigh>) and Rodinal which gave you about 100
'lines'/mm. I'm not sure what the conversion is from 'lines' to 'pixels'
but color was never as good as b&w anyhow.
Ah, but I didn't say 35mm, did I – I said large format.
B&W is higher res, considerably in fact.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Upgrades are coming for PhotoCD workstations that will scan 4×5
and 2 1/4 trans at very high resolutions. You cant put too many
on a disk though ( 150 + meg files ).
Ever seen a res 60 (60 LPM) 4×5 trans? Bet you might have a hard
time telling it from an original. :^) ducking!
I think color film has surpassed the resolution of B/W film.
I've blown a 35mm velvia trans upto 20×30 and with a grain
focuser all you get is hi res mush, but prints can be excelent!
Finer grain has improved dramatically in fast ASA B/W films though.
Later
All the work that has gone into color has really paid off.
You know what tickles me more than anything? The faster color 35-mm films.
They sure give you a lot of flexibility with natural light.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Fuji really gave Kodak a run for their money during the 80's.
Nearly took all of trans and photo paper market away from kodak.
Most people that shoot negs or b/w still use kodak. With the
"buy USA" seniment thats going around, Kodak is making a big
comeback in consumer markets.
Fuji has a 400 asa film for wedding photographers that is
incredible for available light shots. The 2 1/4 film definately
looks like 4×5 blown up.
Ever play with the consumer-level really fast color 35's? Like the Fuji
1600 ASA? I love that stuff. I can take pictures from under my car and
make out every bolt. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot