#OS/2 w/ 3DS 3
44 messages in this thread
> Is 3ds 3 supported under OS/2 2.1?
It works great! Here are a few tips for you:
Depending on your hardware, you probably won't be able to run 3DS in
the background. You might want to create 2 3DS.SET files, one which
uses a display that works in the background (too bad the network
slaves don't just use text mode!)
The hardware lock will take complete control of the parallel port.
That means you can't print while 3DS is running. If you print, your
jobs will sit in the queue until you exit 3DS. I'd really love to
get rid of that lock for this reason (I only have one printer port!)
You may get "not enough memory for full screen" messages when if you
start 3DS in the background. Just select OK and ignore these errors.
Trilobyte's PLAY program works fine in a DOS session. AAPLAYHI does
not.
Next for me: Using OS/2's VIDEO IN product to turn FLCs into AVI
movies. That should be LOTS of fun!
— Doug Azzarito
> Next for me: Using OS/2's VIDEO IN product to turn FLCs into AVI
> movies. That should be LOTS of fun!
I've been doing it… Stop by the IBM Technology/Innovations stage at Comdex
and I'll show you my spinning OS/2 logo as an AVI…
JimmyG – Manager OS/2 Graphics Development
What is this os/2 video in product?
-Steve.
It's a video capture/editing/manipulation tool. It supports cards from IBM,
Creative Labs, Jovian , etc. It is useful to generate AVI files. I've used it
to convert my FLC files (by using the POCO tools to separate it into bitmaps)
and put them back together as AVI files. It allows direct video capture as
well. You may want to check to the OS2Beta forum for more details…
JimmyG – Manager OS/2 Graphics Development
> my spinning OS/2 logo as an AVI
Cool – have you seen the spinning OS/2 logo I did for 2.0? Dave Barnes used it
in his HAL-PC demo. I wish I knew that sooner. I did a 50MB .FLC for Comdex
(to be used in the OS/2 test drive center). I couldn't figure out how to get
it to Comdex, so I just brought the source, but when I got here, they didn't
have a machine that I could use to render. I've since found a machine, and
re-rendered some of it, but I thought it would be a waste. I think it's great!
The reason I'm interested in .FLC to .AVI is to compress the files. Will I be
impressed with the compression without being disappointed with the loss of
quality?
— Doug Azzarito
I think if you go to the OS/2 printer object, select output, select
LPT1, and then turn on its "shared access" attribute, then you can
print from Win-OS/2 while running 3DS. At least it works for me. I
can also run two copies of 3DS at the same time after doing this. I
sometimes run one copy with the Vibrant S3 driver for design work and
another copy using the vesa driver in the background.
> I sometimes run one copy with the Vibrant S3 driver for design
> work and another copy using the vesa driver in the background.
And then do you use network queues to send jobs from your foreground to your
background? I think that's just great. Heck, I can't imagine going back to
the "old" way. I tried to find AutoDesk at Comdex to show them these kinds of
things (actually, to show AutoDesk customers these things), but it appears they
aren't here (or they're hiding!)
— Doug Azzarito
Doug,
Yes, I've run a render slave on the same machine as a foreground session.
I've run a foreground vibrant, a background vesa, and a render slave,
photoshop, anipro, and coreldraw, tapcis, and a couple of dos boxes all at
once! This eats up my 32meg rather easily and bogs the machine down with
swapping, but it was fun to try it just for laughs.
I can hardly wait until OS/2 SMP comes out and I get a multiprocessor Pentium
box. Talk about zero-slot networking!
I am thrilled to see high profile people like you using OS/2. 3DS runs in the
background under OS/2 mainly as a fluke. I hope Adesk makes background
execution under OS/2 and NT a high priority for R4.
Bailey
> 3DS runs in the background under OS/2 mainly as a fluke.
You mean the past 2 years I've spent hammering both AutoDesk and the
Yost Group is just a fluke! 🙂
Seriously, I've got more work to do – I didn't get 3DSR3 betas, so I
couldn't do more, I just made sure that the DPMI version got lots of
attention. Now if I can get Gary to start using OS/2, we'll see some
real OS/2 improvements.
BTW, have you tried editing your network queue from a DOS box? I'm at
Comdex, and I'm using 3DS on a demo machine – the DOS box hangs any
time I try to delete an entry in the queue. Because of this, I can't
schedule any other renderings, because theirs a pending ASAP that I
can't get rid of.
— Doug Azzarito
3DS running in the foreground under OS/2 is no fluke because the DPMI
problem had been brought to the Yost Group's attention many times by
you and others.
The problem is that 3DS does graphics output even in batch or slave
modes. I see no reason why there shouldn't be a switch to make these
things run blind. Maybe someone could write a null RCPADI driver?
It would be even better if there were a switch to make 3DS do NO
graphics output at all while rendering (output only to RDPADI and
files). OS/2 doesn't care if a process using a display mode that is
not supported for background execution runs in the background as long
as it does no graphics output while it is in the background. This
way, you could use whatever display driver/mode you wanted and use
3DS in the foreground and then switch to something else while it is
rendering a test image.
I am just glad that with my setup, I can use the Vibrant S3 drivers in
the foreground and the VESA driver in the background.
I wonder if 3DS can be run in the background under NT (not that I'm
interested in running NT myself)?
Bailey,
>> I wonder if 3DS can be run in the background under NT (not that I'm
interested in running NT myself)? <<
It can't. 3DS won't run at all under NT because of memory management
incompatabilities of one sort or another…
Mark
> The problem is that 3DS does graphics output even in batch or
> slave modes.
Yes, I brought that to Gary's attention, but it was too late. Maybe I
can convince him to put me on the 3DSR4 beta program, so I can make
suggestions in time. Better yet, let's get 3DSR4 to be a native OS/2
app. I can't imagine anyone running 3DS on a DOS machine anyway!
Why can't you imagine folks running 3DS on a DOS machine? That is the
only platform it runs on! Seems like a pretty simple picture in my
head… Also, I just got back from COMDEX with two glaring
observations… 1) OS/2 is all but dead, NT is everywhere and 2)
Apple was almost non-existent, even in the multimedia rooms!
With Windows shipping with almost every PC sold, the Windows NT
/ OS-2 war was over before Windows NT reached final release. The
current Windows users will begin to move to Windows NT as soon as the
common apps are ported.
As software developers we looked at both Windows NT and OS-2.
We do not see any market for OS-2 products.
With the large mass of Windows apps being ported to Windows NT
in the near future Windows NT usage is in for a very large growth
rate.
The success of Windows NT or the failure of OS-2 has very
little to do with which of the two is a better operating system.
Keith.
Just another example of how bad/poor technology can outsell good with marketing
hype!
Judy
> We do not see any market for OS-2 products.
I'm glad you're not doing my market analysis. From where I stand, my
product is much more important than any OS. My job as a software
developer is to make the best product I can, and that means I use the
best platform available. If my product costs $3000, will a user mind
if he has to spend another $100 on an OS? No way! 3DS isn't a
program that you run alongside 1-2-3 and Wordstar. 3DS "owns" the
machine it runs on, so why should it have to suffer with an OS that
isn't the best?
Examine the features of each OS, and if there's one that can give
significant advantage to your app (and thereby, to your customers),
develop under that platform. Your customers will appreciate the
benefits you have given them.
Doug:
OTOH, OS/2 isn't available for the Alpha; NT is. I'm in the process of
benchmarking a DEC Alpha, and if it lives up to its specs, it should be a
screamer. If apps are as portable as the NT-hype machine implies, being able
to run on multiple hardware platforms could have a significant impact on larger
companies (with large, existing hardware investments).
-JH
Doug,
As a programmer I agree use the best OS available. I would go
with IRIX. X windows with motif along with open GL and Inventor are
very hard to beat. The "marketing guys" would never base a product on
the need to switch peoples operating system. A large public company
makes software choices based on marketing. This is "real" life.
It would be almost impossible to start up a major software
package with the requirement of switching peoples OS. Not to mention
the support nightmare.
I agree 3DS owns the machine which why 386 extended DOS can not
be beat. It makes 3DS run with operating system authority. If you
are running a machine with a dedicated task you don't need Windows NT
or OS/2.
Keith.
Doug,
>> OS/2 is all but dead, NT is everywhere
Maybe, but OS/2 will run 3DSr3 but NT can't. That's all the argument I need
for OS/2.
I've run a 3DS render slave in the background, a foreground 3DS session,
CorelDraw, Photoshop, and Tapcis all at the same time. Try doing that with
DOS. The only way I'd ever run 3DS under dos again is if I build a render
farm. Then I'll run the slaves under dos.
NT will become interesting to 3D folks if and only if OpenGL for NT is ever
there and if and only if applications like 3DS are re-coded to use it or SGI
apps that already use GL are ported to WinNT/OpenGL. I've heard ADI is working
on another 3D API for NT, and that is fine as long as the 3D board vendors
support it.
Bailey
Just thought you may like to know, when I was out at Adesk last month
they were saying the PC war is over. 3DS has won – hands down. I
guess Wave Front, and Soft Image and probably others should have NT
versions out within 1-2 years. Adesk thinks that will be the next
battleground.
Just curious, Dave: who is "Adesk"?
– J
There will have do be some small "pricing adjustments" from WaveFront and Soft
Image <g>.
> Why can't you imagine folks running 3DS on a DOS machine? That is
> the only platform it runs on!
Not true – it runs better under OS/2. I can't count the times that I
needed to interrupt a rendering when I used 3DS under DOS. Someone
would need a file off my machine, and they couldn't wait until the
rendering was done. Under OS/2, I don't have to interrupt the
rendering. I can copy files (or even work on other 3DS scenes) while
3DS renders in another session under OS/2.
> 1) OS/2 is all but dead
No, you mean ANYTHING but dead. Are you sure you were at the right
COMDEX? You know, the one where OS/2 won the Most Valuable Product,
and was running in over 100 booths?
> NT is everywhere
It was? I didn't see that much of it. Of course, I did enjoy
watching the folks at Intergraph struggle to get their NT machine
booted (that thing is harder to boot than VMS! 🙂
Doug, when you say it 3DSR3 runs "better" under OS/2 do you mean it is
more convenient to run it under OS/2 (ie.multitaksing) or do you mean
it "performs better", that is redraws fsater, renders faster etc…
Its hard to imagine 3ds "performing " better under OS/2. I am not
being dogmatic here, I am truly curious. I just bought OS/2 but have
not installed it yet. The machines (486/66's) are dedicated 3d'ers.
Also got Lantastic but haven't installed it yet either <g>.
> do you mean it is more convenient to run it under OS/2
Yes, that's what I mean. Things I can do under OS/2 that I can't do under DOS
include:
– Getting access to my computer without interrupting a rendering
– Rendering and building new models at the same time on one machine
– Quickly switching to other tools (paint programs, FLIC viewers, etc)
without leaving 3DS.
– Saving files on a 1GB drive (HPFS) without wasting huge amounts
of space due to "large clusters"
I hope to be playing around with a multi-processor system soon, which will give
REAL performance benefits, but that's another story.
>>Not true – it runs better under OS/2.
I haven't tried to run it under OS/2, but I seriously doubt that it
runs better. what is your definition of better? Is it more stable? Is
it faster? That multitasking stuff is nice, but what are you
sacrificing for rendering speed. Is it twice as slow? Maybe three
times. I'm curious. I'd like to see some benchmarks. Again, I must
emphasize that I have never used OS/2. I do use windows and Unix and
DOS. My experiences from using AutoCAD on those 3 OSs is that the DOS
version is much faster. Whenever you multitask, you are spreading your
system resources to various tasks instead of devoting them all to one
task. That is where you can take a serious performance hit. If I
change a material or a scene and want to rerender it, I don't want to
wait because I've got some other thing going on in the background.
The faster the better. I am more productive if it takes less time for
a scene to render as I can go back and modify it and rerender it
fast.
I have found that the more programs you run in a multitasking
environment the slower each app is going to be. This is true both in
Windows and on Unix platforms. I've run 3 sessions of AutoCAD on my
SUN and in windows and found that it didn't make me any more
productive since I was always waiting for one session to redraw or
zoom or do something CPU intensive. As soon as I closed all the
session except one, AutoCAD sped considerably and I was able to get
more done.
Anyway, these are my 2 cents. To each his own OS. I like DOS cause I
am a speed freak. I feel the need for speed. That is true for
everything I do, ie driving, bike riding, windsurfing, rollerblading,
skiing and of course rendering and CAD.
Please remember Windoze is an application – not an operating system. Any app
which runs under Windoze will run slower than WIndoze. The same app will run
faster in native DOS or Native OS/2. Application which run other applications
slow the apps they are running down.
It is not necessarily true that running more than one app on an operating
systems, slows them both down. It really is a question of the mix of
applications. MVS/ESA has no problems but then that OS is professionally tuned
— most users of OS/2 are not able to correctly tune the OS. You need to
carefully mix CPU bound apps with I/O bound apps and then you will not see the
degredation in performance you are talking about. All performance is degraded
by Windows since Windows is an application not an OS.
Judy
I was at Comdex and saw a much different story. OS/2 was on a whole lot more
machines than NT. I also saw OPENGL Running natively under OS/2 2.1 at the
technology stage at the IBM booth….
JimmyG – Manager OS/2 Graphics Development
Well – I was just recently at Auto Fact in Chicago and I can say that
I saw NT on _some_ machines. I did not see _any_ OS/2 at all. Not
that I couldn't have missed a booth but hey, it was big. <g>
OK more machines today. When the current Windows 3.1 based Apps
release a true Windows NT version those Windows 3.1 users will
follow. Hardware is shipped with Windows already installed how do
compete with that?
We, as a software company, have regular requests from existing
users today for Windows software. We have had very little calls about
OS/2. We could not afford the extra time and effort to support an
OS/2 based product not to mention the extra programming effort. Today
how would any of the smaller software development companies see this
differently?
First, I'll start off with the suggestion that if we want to get into
some deeper discussions about OS/2 that we move over to the OS2XXX
fora for the sake of our friends here on the ASOFT forum…. Until
then…
> Hardware is shipped with Windows already installed how do compete
> with that?
Check out our new "OS/2 for Windows" product. For 49$ (or $39 on CDROM) you can
add full OS/2 functionality to your existing Windows setup. This was very well
received at Comdex and deals with reaching the "preloaded windows" audience.
> Today how would any of the smaller software development companies
> see this differently?
By realizing they could create a superior application in a market that is dying
for true OS/2 applications. Lotus, Wordperfect etc all were formed in the early
stages of DOS. The entrepreneur with a great app could do very well with the
millions of OS/2 users…. (BTW, I don't discount your argument about Windows
penetration, I'm just trying to look at the other possibilities)
JimmyG – Manager OS/2 Graphics Development
> Hardware is shipped with Windows already installed how do compete
> with that?
OS/2 can compete quite nicely. For $39, I can turn my new DOS/WIN
preloaded system into an OS/2 machine. Why would I want to do that?
Because YOUR application is a killer app, and you tell me the OS/2
version is BETTER than the Windows version. Heck, some companies are
even bundling OS/2 with their app. There's only one catch. You have
to really make the killer OS/2 app. If you do it *RIGHT* you can blow
away any Win app that would dare compete with you. Most companies
today don't seem to want to do it right – they just recompile their
WinApp as an OS/2 app. That doesn't cut it. Give me a
multi-threaded version, and I'll LOVE you. Give me a ported WinApp,
and I'll be comparing it against your windows version, and your
competitor's product.
BTW, in case you haven't tried it, developing OS/2 apps is a lot more
fun than writing WinApps! 🙂
— Doug Azzarito
I don't think that we have to bother too much about OPENGL in relation
with 3ds. Autodesk simple won't use it. They have their own graphics
standards, and it seems that their comitment to HOOPS (or whateever
the name of that is 🙂 will represent a new war in the future.
OS/2 is great, but we don't have it in our machines (NT neither 🙂 Hey
folks, talking about OS/2… anyone have seen the announcement about
a Targa+ set of drivers and some other stuff for OS/2 2.1 in the
Truevision libraries? Just curious, I have download the notice but I
haven't read it yet.
ps.Regarding the movement of the thread to an OS/2 forum… hey Jim,
you have to read some recents threads in this forum to see what is
the nature of the matters discussed here 🙂 We cover everything, from
a department in sex obsessions, symbols and other fantasy topics
(Martin Foster, director 🙂 to games development and multimedia
research in the Panasonic 3DO platform. Ah! and don't forget our
tribal verbal wars (hey, lots of fun!) It seems to be the broad forum
in the whole CIS.
I agree that Autodesk may never find themselves using OpenGL, but as
the subject was being talked about concerning NT, I thought I'd
remind folks that it can also be seen on OS/2. As for moving the
thread, as open that I am to talking about OS/2, I've seen amazing
scroll rates over on our fora, and wanted to at least be "polite" and
ask before anything like that happened to Autodesks forum. Now,
where's that thread on obsessions…
>> 1) OS/2 is all but dead, NT is everywhere and (2 Apple was almosr non-
>> existent, even in the multimedia rooms!
Bout time. <g>
Dave Mennenoh
Re: R4 as 32bit OS/2 app.
What I'd really like to see is R4 support whatever PC OS that has 3D
support. If that's NT with OpenGL, then so be it. By then, a good
realtime Garroud shading board will cost about $1K. Wouldn't it be
killer to have realtime previews? How about realtime draft-quality
renderings using a higher end ($2K) board that does texture mapping
in hardware?
> Wouldn't it be killer to have realtime previews?
That would be excellent. I don't think I've lost sight of the target
– I don't care what platform 3DS runs under. OS/2 is $39, so if 3DS
only supported OS/2, it's not going to kill anyone to fork over
another $39 to get it to run. The question is, what platform will
make 3DS run the best? Write apps under the best OS for you, and
your customers will run the OS that you choose. I think too many
programmers are afraid to make the OS decision for their customers,
but the programmers are the best people to make that decision.
>> but the programmers are the best people to make that decision.
Not really. I have done OS/2 stuff in and out since its very first
release back in 87. That's when I had to pay $3,500 for a Software
Development Kit. Since then, the impression I have always had was
that I was working with something out of Sears catalogue. IBM has
always (up to a couple of months, and CEO's ago) touted this thing as
a IBM mainframe terminal OS. Every conference, discussion, whatever,
I've been regarding OS/2 development seemed more like a mormon
reunion than a programmers gathering. They are just too suited up. No
coke, no pizza. Just milk and oat bran muffins.
On the other hand, the competition has done everything to make the
opposite. As a programmer, you would have to be pretty desperate to
pick OS/2 given the choice of environments…
Gus,
>> touted this thing as a IBM mainframe terminal OS
That may be what the suits thought OS/2 was for, but the people actually
working on the project thought otherwise.
If OS/2 is so stuffy, then why does the user guide have index entries
for Wing Commander II and Space Quest IV? I turned to those
sections, and they listed optimal dos settings for running these
games. These, and most other games, run fine under OS/2. Wolfenstein
3D ran right out of the box, with PAS16 and joy stick support. I
hadn't even told OS/2 I had the PAS16. I've since installed OS/2
multimedia.
If you look at the OS/2 forum on usenet, you will see mainly computer
geeks touting OS/2 for its superior multitasking, relatively light
system requirements, and rock solid dos emulation. If you look at
the NT forum, you will see a bunch of MIS majors touting NT as the
ultimate client-server, enterprise-wide computing OS and saying that
it does not matter what is wrong with NT because "Windows has already
won the desktop." The other people touting NT are mostly people like
yourself who got screwed by IBM when they paid $3500 for the OS/2 1.x
SDK and the OS went nowhere.
I will run whichever OS runs 3DS best. I hope R4 is an NT application
that has binaries for different cpus, is multithreaded, and used
OpenGL. For the current version of 3DS, the options are DOS, Windows,
and OS/2, and OS/2 wins hands down.
Gus, I also have a copy of that SDK gathering dust in my
basement.
If developers made the user load OS/2 to buy that app then
those same users would call the developer for support on everthing
they did not understand about OS/2. A software developer would become
burdened with way too much support. A good example of the hardware
support issue is right here in this forum. Why should the Yost Group
(Autodesk) have to answer hardware related issues to running 3DS
under Windows, Windows NT or OS/2 it is a DOS application.
You seem to be going on about the "OS Wars." That's a nice topic, but what on
earth does it have to do with the message you are replying to? Did you even
read it? I'll repeat myself…..
The programmer who writes a large application (like 3DS) is the best person to
select an operating system for it. The application can dictate the OS. If 3DS
suddenly came out under CP/M, I would gladly put CP/M on my 3DS machine. After
all, what's a couple of bucks for an OS compared to the price of 3DS?
Application programmers should look at all of the platforms available to them,
and write for the one that best supports their application.
Forget all the talk of religion, and who cares what kind of junk food they
serve. There's room in this world for more than one OS, and if a certain OS
can make 3DS significantly better than it is today, I'm willing to switch.
Programmers are letting the users dictate what OS they use – that's fine for
"mainstream" apps, but there are some apps (3DS, AutoCAD, Ventura Publisher and
the like) that "consume" the entire machine. These apps can (and should)
dictate what OS that machine uses.
— Doug Azzarito
Given a choice of environment I think someone would have to be
somewhat brain damaged to pick Windoze or NT. I prefer an OS that
works not one that limps along!
Believe it or not I manage very well without having a single
Microsoft product on my system!
If you were so unhappy with OS/2 1.x why are you ladling out money for
products from the same people who wrote OS/2 1.x — that programming
companies name is MIcrosoft!!!
Doug,
I'll run whichever OS runs 3DS best, and for now that's OS/2.
$39? Great deal! I paid $89 for mine. Still a bargain, though.
Bailey