#Amiga Game Console FACTS
72 messages in this thread
> S-Video f|r Fernseher (Fernsehr = TV)
> PAL, NTSC und SECAM Composite Video f|r Monitor
> oder Fernseher (SCART oder Video)
> PAL, NTSC und SECAM HF-Modulator-Ausgang f|r
> Fernseher (Antenne)
>
> Audioausgabe (audio output)
> Vierkanal-Stereosound
> Vier 8-Bit-Digital/Analog-Wandler
> 16-Bit-Audio-CD-Stereo mit 44 kHz
>
> Schnittstellen (connectors)
> Spielpult mit 11 Schaltern (wird mitgeliefert)
> 2 Spielpult-/Joystick-/Mausanschl|sse
Game pad with 11 buttons included.
2 Game Pad/Joy/Mouseconnectors
> Hochgeschwindigkeits-Aux-Anschlu_ f|r eine Tastatur,
> Datenhandschuh f|r Virtuelle Realitt etc.
High speed 'Aux' connector for a keyboard, virtual reality glove, etc.
> Erweiterungsanschluss AMIGA-Computer-Box
> Erweiterungsanschluss AMIGA CD32 Full-Motion-Videomodul
(Erweiterungsanschluss = expansion connector)
> Unterst|tzte CD-Standards (supported CD formats)
> AMIGA CD32
> Audio-CD
> CD + G (Grafik)
> CDTV
>
> Abmessungen (size)
> 212 mm tief x 311 mm breit x 81 mm hoch
>
> Gewicht (weight)
> Systemeinheit 1,44 kg
> Netzteil 1,53 kg
>
> Netzanschlu_ (power connector)
> Externes Blocknetzteil, 22 Watt
>
>
> Frankfurt, den 28.06.93
>
>–
> Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal
opinions > Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/
peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com
Ahh, what a work.
Hope you will like this new thing and that we will see full reviews in the
magazines soon. An that it will hit the shops soon.
I think I gonna buy one.
Greetinx.
Gary
A4000/40
Always remember – there's nothing better more – than the AMIGA
This sounds an awful lot like an A1200 motherboard in a new box; minus the
keyboard & RGB ports but with a CD-ROM. It'll be interesting to see if the
16-bit sound is internally generated or passing through sound directly from the
CD-ROM.
It's going to have a fun time competing with the Atari Jaguar and 3DO with
their 64-bit RISC processors, etc. It should be able to to an adequate job —
especially considering Commodore can pump the title count since it should be
compatible with almost any software that runs on an A1200.
-Chas
Jaguar has no CD-ROM, and it looks like 3D0 will cost more than twice as
much. Sounds competitive to me.
I'm waiting to see more details become public before I say much more. If
there really is a CD32 comming out, I probably worked on it while I was at
Commodore.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Dale,
The Atari Jaguar has a CDRom option — it's (targeted at) $200 … so the
brings the cost of the unit up to $400.
-sja
Well I'm not so sure the world needs another CD based games console, but
if it brings CBM out of the brink of ruin, then I hope they sell a BUNCH.
My only question is what CBM is going to do for the rest of us dedicated
Amiga users? They need to release a CDROM system for the 1200/2000/3000
and 4000 users, preferably with PhotoCD capability. I know there are
alternatives with 3rd party CD drives, I have one myself. But it will be
better to see CBM come out with their own drive, and installed in future
machines as a standard.
// John – (Flying via AutoPilot)
\X/ "Worf: To Hell with the Prime Directive – Give the Borg Windows!"
John,
It seems that it's almost as likely to push them over the brink of ruin as
to pull them out of it. A struggling company can't really afford to devote
precious resources to something that the world isn't ready for. It wasn't
ready for CDTV; I don't know what makes anybody think that it's ready for
this reincarnation. CDROM technology is selling, but to those who already
have their feet wet with technology…current computer owners. In my
opinion, it would be far wiser to develop for a market that already exists
than to try to force the creation of a new one. An integrated computer
cdrom unit marketed as such with keyboard etc. or a peripheral that
integrates into existing systems makes more sense for the current market.
-Richard
But, a CD32 is essentially a small step away from an A1200 CD-ROM drive.
You'd just need an external case and a new system ROM with CD-ROM
extensions. Units for other models couldn't be far behind. And C= has
already promised as much. So the only REAL drawback is if ad dollars are
wasted promoting CD32. But lookee here! It's got Amigans talking already.
Those ad dollars haven't even kicked in yet but all they'll do is whet
appetites for CD32 peripherals.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Apple has just recently announced that _ALL_ future MACs will come with
CD-ROMS… The only exception will be some of the portables.
-Jonathan
-Jonathan
That is an extremely smart strategy by Apple. By ensuring all future installed
base will have CD-ROM drives, software developers will be more enticed into
doing titles for Macs and away from the giant Windows lure. For Apple to
survive, it must either change its business model (some have suggested it will
end up as a software company) or continue to find ways to differentiate its
products well. Powerbooks are clearly excellent portable computers because
they're so easy to use, have great ergonomics and are reasonably priced. The
Newton, etc., could do well (first version isn't likely to however). But their
desktop business right now is VERY vulnerable.
Look how long it took them to come out with the C= 570 attachment for the
500 after the release of CDTV (which is basicly a 500 without keyboard,
diskdrive ect.) Will we have to wait another 2 years before it is
available?
…steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
Richard, I tend to agree. Way back when CDTV was first introduced, I
predicted it would be a failure, and it was. And I don't give CBM's CD32
system much of a chance either. People are not ready to plunk down
$400-$500 US for a games console, CD or no CD. Most of the software out
there doesn't take advantage of the mass storage anyway so basically all
you are getting is 4 or 5 disks of material. Maybe that will change with
the AGA chipset, but I don't think developer's are going to be rushing to
create new stuff for the game console. I think they are going to be a lot
more cautious considering what happened with CDTV. And the fact CBM raised
the royalty they want for CDTV development 1200% doesn't do much to
inspire developer's either.
// John – (Flying via AutoPilot)
\X/ "Worf: To Hell with the Prime Directive – Give the Borg Windows!"
>People are not ready to plunk down $400-500 US for a games console, CD or
>no CD…
But if CD32 with a MPEG adapter runs VHS-quality movies, what would they
say then? ("Wait! There's more!")
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Ron,
Why spend extra money for a games console just because it also runs VHS
quality movies? I would bet that 99.9% of the folks who would buy a $500 games
console….already have a VHS VCR…so why not just run the movie on it?
(Yes…I know you're not talking about playing a VHS movie in the CD32
itself…the point being…if the movie is available in CD32 format, it will
also be available in VHS format)
Don
Don: I'd bet people would buy a CD32 with MPEG playback capability (or a
CD-I or 3DO for that matter) PRIMARILY for its video capabilities. This is
market psychology at work. If it seems sexy and new it may sell, as long
as people understand it and the price is right. Even if an MPEG-based disc
movie isn't quite up to VHS-Q quality, it may SEEM better to people (it'd
be interesting to run blind tests).
People DO understand passive movie watching, much better than they do
playing computer games or running "interactive media."
Another big selling point: The CD-ROM movies would be more durable and
take up less space. Many people have been willing to replace their aging
LP collection with CD audio copies of the same music. Why can't the same
thing happen with movies? In fact, it's already happened to a degree among
owners of laserdisc players (admittedly a niche group). Add to that
interactive media and audio CD support and these products very well may
start moving in quantity, as the first-generation TV-ROMs have not.
Consider, also, that you'd probably see Blockbuster-type stores pushing
the product. CD-ROM movies will be more durable than VHS, take up less
space than VHS or laserdisc. Plus, the stores would probably push TV-ROM
games as they do now with Nintendo and Sega games. They might even rent
players. I dimly recall Blockbuster investing in the technology, so
they're primed. They know people won't be stuck on VHS forever.
It all ultimately depends on the relative price of the players and of
movies on CD-ROMs, of course, but people are familiar with those little
discs. Also, I believe Philips is coming out with a portable CD-I player;
if it had MPEG capability (a big "if") then it'd be analagous to the Sony
8mm LCD-VCR product line, which has carved out a market of its own.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Ron,
Why wouldn't these folks who want a CD-ROM movie have already bought a
Laserdisk player? They are in the same price range.
Don
CD-ROM movies will be cheaper to manufacture than LaserDisks. Hence, they
should be cheaper to buy. Someday.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Don:
Well, I own a laserdisc player as well as a CDTV. Granted that I'm unusual
<g> I do think these generally are two separate markets. Many laserdisc
players also play audio CDs. However, lots of people who buy audio CDs are
afflicted with tunnel vision and don't understand laserdiscs. After all,
you don't see laserdiscs around in anywhere near the quantities of audio
CDs. I just think people who are not laserdisc-conscious — or only
marginally conscious of it — would be more inclined to buy a TV-ROM
player that could show movies than a laserdisc player.
Also note that LD players tend to attract videophiles who demand
high-quality output. There are already two levels of laserdiscs out there,
in fact: Cheap stuff that looks pretty good and Criterion-quality editions
that cost $100 and more. The latter do quite well in terms of sales. Most
people, however, do NOT demand such output. Compactness would be a bigger
issue for them (I suspect that for many consumers laserdiscs look entirely
too much like 33-1/3 LP records, making them seem like old technology).
Note also that CD-sized media are cheaper to produce. Given market
competition, I eventually would expect prices for CD/MPEG movies to be
lower than for the same programming on laserdisc.
I can further imagine a portable TV-ROM player with MPEG attached, along
with a pair of viewing goggles (virtual image) or LCD screen. This is
possible with current technology and would probably fly out the door as a
movie-viewing and games-playing device for folks on the go.
Did I mention the UK outfit that's figured out how to encode movie-length
video on standard audio CDs? Most late-model audio CD players allegedly
could be cheaply adapted to take advantage of this invention, which may be
hitting the shelves within the year. Given the huge installed base of
audio CD players, this third alternative could really capture the market.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
One major issue here. Apparently a CD32 disk can hold up to 75 minutes of MPEG
video I believe, which is much shorter than the average movie, thereby making
it useless as an alternative to VHS.
Paul:
This is not entirely true. Currently a CAV laserdisc can only hold 30
minutes per side, or 60 minutes total, and many movies come on 2 or even 3
discs, the same could be done with CDROM movies. I'll agree it's not the
same as a movie you can just watch, and sometimes I HATE getting up to
change the disc as it is, but it's better than nothing 🙂
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Not "useless." Inconvenient for couch potatoes, maybe. CD-I (and probably
3DO) will offer exactly the same length. And I own many laserdisc movies
that are three or four sides long. No big deal.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Paul,
I think that the accurate figure is 72 minutes. I was invited by Philips a
few months ago to see full motion video on the CD-I. The quality was
excellent. They told me that since a lot of LP records or CD audio albums
are only around 35 minutes total, they are going to market a dual-purpose
CD disk, with 36 minutes audio and 36 minutes video. The guy with the
ordinary audio CD player will get exactly the same disk as the CD-I owner.
Only different is that the Cd-I owners gets to see the group as well as
hear it. Smart move! They also said that they have a further development
under way to double the 72 minutes thus enabling most feature films to be
held on one CD disk.
Pete Jones, flying on AutoPilot from Brussels, Belgium
Yea,
Nothing like dissuading you supporters by gouging them.
-Richard
Well CBM is doing a pretty good job of alienating their current
supporters. At one time, they said the 3000 was going to be the base
machine on which future technology would be based on. But then they
screwed the 3000 owners by coming out with the 4000 and not offering any
upgrade path. Then they have pretty much laid the hassle of getting a
4000's motherboard upgraded for the 4091 on the user's. And then they come
out with the CD32 instead of offering current Amiga owner's CDROM drives.
So if they keep it up, even their most loyal supporter's will get tired of
getting the shaft.
// John – (Flying via AutoPilot)
\X/ "Worf: To Hell with the Prime Directive – Give the Borg Windows!"
John,
There is an upgrade path for 3000 owners — at least until the 31st.
-sja
CBM was proud of the 3000 when they made that announcement and rightly so.
The 3000 was and is the most complete out of the box machine they've
produced. AGA is a great improvement but it would have been better to
stick with more of the 3000's features as standard. Sure would have saved
some money on the motherboard swaps.
-Richard
Richard,
From a technical stance, the A3000 was quite nice. However, if you were
GVP you would find that box to be the worst Commodore has ever produced.
Why? Well the first problem was that companies like GVP make their money
by fixing or adding a feature that Commodore did not design in from the
beginning. GVP made its money in the accelerator / disk controller A2000
business. The A3000 did not allow them to continue that, further the
A3000 has had a SuperBuster DMA chip problem since day one that only
recently Commodore has fixed. I believe there is also some problem with
RAMSEY, but I might be mistaken.
I am not suggesting that the A3000 should have been designed differently
really, but I am pointing out that fact that due to its design there are
few true Zorro III boards, and very, few if any that are still available.
GVP has stopped making and no longer has the A3000 accelerator for
example.
So, I guess the brilliance of the design depends clearly where you sit in
the stands.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Mark,
Yea, if your a third party developer, the A1200 must be seen as a
brilliant design.
-Richard
Richard –
Here! Here! I totally agree. CBM does not seem to understand that people
don't buy these machines to admire the paint job. They want to run
applications. CBM has shown no talent for attracting developers. Given the
CDTV experience, I suspect they will have trouble even getting CDTV retread
titles. Do they really think they can compete with Ninetendo and Sega?
I also agree that CBM would be smarter to develope CD technology for the Amiga
rather that trying to force some weak new "standard" on us. Just who do they
think is the target customer(I wonder if they ever considered that question).
I predict that the only people who will buy these things are people who already
own Amigas anyway. But, I suspect that there would be a lot more people with
Amigas willing to buy a CD as a general purpose tool than will be willing to
buy a new device and wait patiently for software.
Of course, developing CD technology for Amigas would mean doing sensible things
like making SCSI standard on all machines.
I love my Amigas but I've gotten very pesimistic. I think that CBM's engineers
and programmers are as good or better than anybody's. However, the guys making
the decisions and running the business are buffoons. It is a hopeless
situation as long as these clowns are in charge.
Just my $.03 worth. – Charles
A group of departed Sega-based programmers are now supposedly writing CD32
software. Why would they leave a supposed powerhouse product like Sega for
a suppposed dead duck like CD32? Meanwhile, Nintendo's in trouble of
getting utterly swamped in very short order by the new generation of
competing TV-ROMs. It has nothing like that in the works, as far as I can
tell.
I keep saying it over and over: CD32 technology *is* CD-ROM technology for
the Amiga. Europe will just see it first because that's C='s No. 1 market.
Face it, C= *does* have limited resources. That's why it's smart to focus
this product initially in Europe. CDTV did well over there and I'd be
surprised if CD32 didn't do better. Next we might expect to say new Amigas
from the factory with CD32 drives. Then the only question is whether a
CD32 peripheral could be retrofitted to non-AGA Amigas. An extreme
optimist might imagine that a CD32 might UPGRADE a pre-AGA Amiga to AGA
level. If not (and it seems unlikely), then a lot of Amiga owners wanting
an AGA CD-ROM drive are going to have to buy a new Amiga, which will just
give them something *else* to complain about!
CD32 development has served two purposes:
* One, the CD32 debuting in Europe is the obvious basis for the standard
CD-ROM support that Amigans crave (those, that is, who have been unwilling
to fiddle with existing third-party solutions like Xetec). The Amiga crowd
will get its CD32 peripherals when C= has the money and production
capacity to divert from CD32 consoles. If the consoles don't sell, that'll
be sooner rather than later. So, a purely selfish Amiga owner might hope
that the CD32 console fails to ignite the Euro market, because then maybe
he'll see the peripheral he craves a few months sooner. Of course, it
won't have the same long-term software support that a successful CD32
console would engender.
It's the same tactic C= tried with the A570 but it's too easy to see that
as a failure. Why did we never get a CDTV peripheral for Amigas other than
the A500? Or a DCTV-based CDTV? Because in both cases, C= obviously saw
that it was smart to wait for AGA and invest in the better CD32
technology. I think CD32 has every chance of succeeding in Europe, and
paying back its R&D costs, meaning we'll likely see a peripheral version
in due time. I agree that we can't see it too soon.
C='s other evident purpose is to hold onto existing markets while
developing new ones in the cheapest possible way. I love Amigas and want
the Amiga to stick around, but C= would be dumb if it bet all its
resources on supplying the Amiga-only community in the near future. Even
Apple isn't betting its future on the Mac alone. C= needs to develop new
markets that can help support the existing Amiga community. A rising tide
lifts all boats.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Ron – I certainly hope you are right and I would love to see CD32 succeed.
However, I do not share your optimism about CBM's ability to do anything.
I do not know enough about it to see that it helps CD-ROM technology on the
Amiga either. I don't think that CDTV did much to promote CD developement for
Amiga either. The CDTV standard was different enough that you could not use
them on an Amiga. I fear that the situation will be the same with CD32.
If CD32 turns out to be like CDTV, it won't become a peripherial for the Amiga
either. If the Amiga had SCSI and the CD32 had SCSI there could be some system
software to allow the CD32 to be just another device in the Amiga's SCSI chain
(i.e. the way the PowerBooks hard drive can become a device for a desktop Mac).
But since CBM has decided to save money and abandon SCSI as a standard, there
is not much chance of that. So that leaves parnet. I've heard that it works
OK, but do you think the foundation of the CD32 as a peripherial should be
based on 3 year old public domain software?
What disturbs me about CBM's "strategy" is that they seem to want to build
cheap computers that are a poor value. A poor value because after you add the
things that you need to make the computer useful, you have spent more than you
would have if you bought a PC or even a more expensive Mac to start with.
I am taking a "Wait and see attitude" about most of my Amiga
purchases(apparently I am not alone). I don't want to throw any more money
down the hole if they are just going to follow the trail blazed by Atari.
– Charles
I have been told two interesting items about CD32 by a friend of mine who was
at the Australian Amiga show. (Make that three things…)
1) Commodore WAS intending to debut the machine their, but for reasons unknown
changed their minds at the last minute.
2) The machine is capable of playing MORE than Amiga & CDTV stuff…it is
supposed to be able to handle Sega Genesis CD-ROMs and possibly (this
was a bit murky) had a cartridge port to handle "other platforms" of
cartridge games (Sega Genesis was the rumor).
3) Commodore has NO intention of releasing this unit in North America. It is
supposedly for Europe and Down Under only. (Personally, I think this will
change but the U.S. & Canada will be 6 months to a year behind the rest
of the world.)
This is second hand info…but the person who told me (not with Commodore) has
been 100% reliable in the past.
-Chas
FCC usually helps stuff to be released domestically well after it is
released overseas.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Dale:
Yes, the FCC wants to make sure that the technological edge ISN'T here in
the US till they want it here! 🙁
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Charles –
Your three pieces of information are very interesting, … and extremely
depressing.
It looks like CBM is thoroughly sold on their delusion that the KNOW home
computing. If it was't so pathetic, I'd be laughing hysterically.
– Charles
Actually, if they do it right…they will have a winner. CD32 has nothing (and
should have nothing) to do with home COMPUTING. It is a game unit, lik Atari,
Nintendo & Sega.
If it is capable of playing Sega cartridges, it would be able to claim the most
titles available right out of the box….plus be an "upgrade" to current
Genesis owners. Considering the specs look like an A1200 w/CD-ROM, it would
have most of the CDTV & Amiga titles available, too.
As far as not releasing in the U.S….I think it was a mistake (the rumor)
'cause the unit was shown (privately) at the last CES in the U.S. (Las Vegas?)
There was supposed to be good interest.
3DO is the ones with the delusions. Unless they have a surrogate sex module
there isn't going to be a market for an $800 game unit, I don't care HOW good
it is.
-Chas
Well, you hit my hot button. Long post warning! And don't take this
wrongly; I'm not mad, just excitable.
First, I reject the argument that Amigas are "cheap computers that are a
poor value." That's pretty sweeping. I suppose you likewise would call a
386 clone a poor value because you have to spend $100 or more to give it
sound quality that comes standard on an Amiga, or extra bucks to add more
memory to make Windows more than marginally functional. I use Macs and
PCs, I know them, and they're not Amigas. Reliability and configuration
ease are two hidden costs where the Amiga tends to excel over the other
platforms.
Besides, if Amigas came from the factory with every last power feature you
could want (MIDI port, digitizers, mulitple controllers, extra RAM, etc.)
then they'd be priced out of range of more buyers. A person can a
plain-vanilla A1200 and modify it as their needs dictate and still be
quite competitive with many Macs or PCs, dollar for dollar and feature for
feature. And often, the Amiga buyer can come out ahead.
Now, C= has publicly stated that all future Amigas will come with CD-ROM
drives. If true, that's good in one sense, but it also will push up base
pricing, and I expect some people will next turn to whining about that.
Sometimes it seems C= can't win with its customers for trying. Me, I
prefer base machines with empty slots, because I'm a power user and, like
dining at Burger King, I prefer having it my own way.
Your assumption that lots of folks are holding off on further Amiga
purchases isn't borne out in my experience. Dealers I'm aware of can't
keep A1200s and A4000s in stock, and are in some cases back-ordered.
No question but that it's a tough market out there for any non-PC machine
(Macs included). But that doesn't mean in the least that an Amiga purchase
today is a bad bet, if the price is right and the machine does what you
want. Otherwise, Universal Studios wouldn't have recently taken delivery
on 50 or 60 Toaster-equipped Amigas.
You also say that: "The CDTV standard was different enough that you could
not use them on an Amiga" and that "if CD32 turns out to be like CDTV, it
won't become a peripheral for the Amiga, either." Sorry, but just because
people weren't interested in using CDTV as a peripheral doesn't mean it
doesn't work well as one.
I'm using my CDTV with my A2000 right now, courtesy of Parnet.
"Three-year-old PD software" it may be, but so what? It works extremely
well as a cheap yet powerful CD-ROM peripheral (my total outlay was under
$350 for all-new gear). Plus, in the bargain I've got a second Amiga
computer with additional I/O ports, not to mention the CDTV software that
came bundled free.
With the AsimWare third-party driver, you can even use CDTV to access data
on Mac and IBM CD-ROM discs pretty transparently, and the newest upgrade
will also let you read Photo CD disks with non-CDTV drives. You still
can't run PC/Mac programs without an appropriate emulator, of course; but
I can't imagine an Amiga CD-ROM drive that would make that totally
transparent, any more than there are simple CD-ROM setups for PCs that can
run Mac stuff.
CD-32 ought to be even more user friendly than CDTV, possibly except for
older machine compatibility with AGA.
In short, the hardware isn't that big an issue; for me it's the software.
Face it; we'll likely never have the sheer range of titles available for
PCs. But who cares? For me, the Fred Fish On-Line disk alone is worth the
price of the entire CDTV setup. I can launch almost any program on any
Fish disk right from my A2000 keyboard, via Parnet. Not too shabby! That's
freed up some of my hard drive space for other stuff. If you had told me
five years ago that eventually for $350 I could have nearly a gigabyte of
Amiga programs available on my A2000, I'd have laughed.
Nor has Commodore "abandoned" the SCSI standard. There is the A4091 SCSI
card for the A4000 and A1200 as well as third-party controllers.
All of this isn't just a problem for C=, you know. Just try buying a SCSI
controller for a PC that will adapt to a CD-ROM drive. They're available,
but usually they're crippled SCSI adapters that refuse to work with any
other kind of peripheral. Meanwhile, my trusty old (there's that word
again!) A2091 SCSI controller can handle most any combination of
third-party CD-ROM drive, hard disk, floptical drive, etc., up to the
seven-device limit.
Perception is reality, I guess.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Ron –
I'm certainly not arguing that PCs or Macs are better than Amigas. But I do
think they are better values because you have to add less to make them fully
functional.
I don't think that a computer without a clock is useable. I don't think that a
computer with one 830K floppy is viable for anything reasonable – you can
barely boot up with one floppy. I don't think that a hard disk is a luxury for
power users. And, 4 megs seems to be pretty much standard on $1000 computers
from other companies. CBM should include the second 2 megs – especially since
it almost doubles the speed of the machine!
Certainly, if CBM included a clock, 4 megs, an 80 meg SCSI hard disk, and a
high density floppy, it would raise the cost of the machine. However, it would
be cheaper to the end user than buying all these power users accessories from
third parties. It would be a much better value to the customer.
"C= has publicly stated that all future Amigas will come with CD-ROM drives."
This is news to me. What are they waiting for?? Perhaps what that means is
that we won't see any more A4000 style Amigas – just game consoles with CDs
built-in.
"Nor has Commodore "abandoned" the SCSI standard." Well, it is hard to abandon
something that you never really embraced. The fact that they sell a $500
add-on or that you can buy SCSI from third parties does not resurrect the
standard. It is only a standard if everyone or almost everyone has one. I
wish that it had become a standard. The advantage of SCSI is not primarily
speed, it is mostly the flexibility that you get. I have already seen several
former SCSI users who now have IDE drives drop their jaws
when they realized they couldn't just plug in an external hard disk, CD-ROM, or
scanner. So, I would be very happy with a 2091 style SCSI in the A1200 and
A4000. If I need SCSI-2 performance, I'll pay extra.
I apologize for running on. I get excited too. I still love my Amigas in
spite of Commodore.
– Charles
I am having a little trouble with a few statements. With PCs you
need a SVGA card, Sound Blaster card, and a faster processor and lots of
ram if want to run windows. That doesn't sound like you are adding less
to get the same level of functionality than an Amiga.
In one paragraph you said 4 megs is standard on $1000 computers, but in
the next that CBM should include a HD floppy drive and 4 megs. Which
Amiga are you using to compare, the 1200 or 4000?
If CBM never really embraced the SCSI standard, why did the 2000s with
hard disks, and the 3000 which had SCSI on the motherboard have SCSI
drives.
I am just confused by those statements.
Richard -> via the Amiga 1000 AutoPilot
I dissagree Charles, you can't get a PC that'll run windows fast enough
to be tolerable, for under $2000 (minimum config is a 25Mhz '486, 200+
Hard drive, 8 Meg of RAM to start with, local bus video, tape backup, lots
of slots…)
Now, my Amiga, which compete's favoribly with the above PC, performance
wise, cost about $1200. It's true, I added some stuff, like a bigger hard
drive, 8M Fast RAM, FPU, HiD floppy. But I also I have a PC sitting here
beside me, that I added just as much to, and spent just as much on, and it
doesn't run Windows well enough to compete with my A1200, (and MSDOS
doesn't compete a all.)
MAC's are still more expensive around here, price perfomance wise, than
Amiga's. (And I can't even make myself like the MAC OS.)
Bob Comer — Cruising the nets on AutoPilot from Cheyenne, Wyoming
Well said Charles.
-Richard
Jeepers, Charles, SCSI is far from a standard on PCs. It's a standard on
most Macs and Amigas (and useable on all Amigas). There are people using
SCSI cards in A1200s, A4000s and even for that matter CDTVs. I fail to see
that the fact they are not integrated in the base model represents a
disadvantage.
Read John Dvorak's latest PC World column, which in effect says that PCs
are out of control and are not the tools they once were but in fact are
burdens in many cases. More so the PC than the Amiga, I would hasten to
add.
I think there remains a strong market for a simple desktop computer at a
low cost. I had a PC before my first Amiga, and if I had to buy a
full-blown A500 I never would have. Instead, I took a risk on a low-price,
plain-vanilla model, was impressed what I could do with 1 meg RAM and 1
900K floppy (Fast File System, ya know) and gradually as I could afford it
expanded the system. For lots of folks, $2,500 systems are not options no
matter how well equipped they are. Growing into a $2,500-equivalent system
a bit at a time is a worthwhile option. E.g., every Atari carried a MIDI
port. Now, if you didn't NEED a MIDI port, that was wasted money. If you
don't NEED SCSI, why should C= make you pay for it.
Finally, if I was a third-party Amiga manufacturer, I'd be thrilled at the
aftermarket opportunities that would offer. Lots of PCs sold without
clocks, too, but there still remains a healthy market for $30 add-in
clocks. As long as it's an option, it's real.
If you want a maxed-out system with everything in place, I'm sure there
are dealers who will oblige you. Will such an Amiga cost more than an
"equivalent" PC? That's a matter of perception, but I would argue no, in
most cases. But even if it does, that's the price we pay for our
willingness to be different. A Maserati costs more than a Corvette, too.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Ron,
An excellent message. I agree almost completely!
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
"Meanwhile, Nintendo's in trouble of getting utterly swamped in very short
order by the new generation of competing TV-ROMs. It has nothing like that
in the works, as far as I can tell."
Oh, I'm sure Nintendo is shaking in their boot's about the TV-ROMs <g>. I
don't think it's going to make as much impact on the market as you think
it is. For one thing, the vast majority of people out there rent movies
instead of purchasing them. Since everyone already has VHS recorders, they
will stick to that for quite some time. Besides, one of the turn-off's
about the TV-ROM's is that it will not hold an entire movie on 1 CD, so
sometime you will have to get up and change the disks. I think most couch
potatoes will think this very inconvenient.
"I keep saying it over and over: CD32 technology *is* CD-ROM technology
for the Amiga."
Does this mean I can hook up a CD32 directly to my 4000 with a SCSI
controller and get 300KB/sec transfer rates or better? Nope, I don't think
so. The only way I can see hooking one up is via a kludge like ParNet.
Although it works, it wouldn't be as good a solution as with regular CDROM
drives.
"CDTV did well over there and I'd be surprised if CD32 didn't do better."
Well even though CDTV did better over in Europe, I wouldn't call it a
runaway hit either. If it would have been, then chances are CBM wouldn't
be in as deep of financial debt as they are now. I still don't think the
CD32 is going to make that much of an impact to bring CBM out of trouble.
I might be wrong, and if CBM sells a zillion of them, then I'll let you
send me the crow. Well done please <g>.
// John – (Flying via AutoPilot)
\X/ "Worf: To Hell with the Prime Directive – Give the Borg Windows!"
John: Maybe it's because C= blew them out the door at $299, but I heard a
guy complaining the other day he couldn't get CDTVs in mass quantity.
Seems he sets them up for customers who want interactive kiosks, and C=
has about eliminated its stock. Sounds like C= won't be building anymore
since CD32 is coming along. Since CD32 can handle CDTV format discs, the
guy should be OK, eventually.
You're right about couch potatoes. Same thing is true with laserdiscs;
even if you have a high-end model with two heads, some longer movies take
up three sides, so you have to open the tray at some point. No wonder they
mainly interest videophiles.
— Ron Legro, Milwaukee
via AUTOPILOT (the only way to fly)
Charles,
Sounds like we agree on a number of points. The SCSI debacle really gets
my goat too.
-Richard
Richard –
I don't think that CBM realizes the depth of their error on this one. But what
can you expect from a company that thinks a clock and a hard disk are luxuries
that most computer users don't need!!!!
– Charles
Charles:
While I'll agree with you that a clock really should be part of a base
system, I disagree with you about harddrives. I'm not 100% sure of my
numbers, but I believe that of all Amigas sold only about 15% of them have
harddrives. I'm not sure if this is a sales number from Commodore which
would then not take into account 3rd party harddrives, or if that was a
poll done by a 3rd party, in which case it would be more accurate.
There are many people that are actually scared of Hard Drives, and don't
want one in their machine. I have a friend (the person that introduced me
to the Amiga) that bought an A500 when it first came out, and after few
years of using the machine without a harddrive I finally convinced him to
add a harddrive, and we put a Supra controller on his A500 with a Seagate
ST138N drive in it. Well, my experience with that particular controller
wasn't to great, but I'm a beta tester of several products, so I
attributed my frequent crashes to that. But on my friends machine, with
just a basic WB installed, it crashed almost weekly! Needless to say, as
his first harddrive experience he wasn't thrilled, and took off the drive,
and went back to floppies. Since that time, he got rid of the A500, bought
an A1000 that he used only with floppies, untill he bought an A600HD about
a month ago. The only reason he got one with a harddrive in it is because
he bought it from me, and ALL my machines have harddrives in them. So far
he's been doing OK, but then he also backs up the drive twice a day so he
won't loose any data!
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike –
If it is true that less than 1 out of 6 Amigas has a hard disk, then even I am
shocked.
As for your friend who is afraid of hard drives, well, there are people who are
afraid of automobiles, and I know several people who are afraid of answering
machines. Fortunately, I think they are all very atypical these days.
You can't use a Mac or a Windos box without a hard disk. A PC or an Amiga
without a hard disk is very limited. While some people might be able to get
along without the HD, the vast majority want a hard disk. Also, the kinds of
applications that people are demanding require large amounts of storage. In my
opinion, a hard disk is virtually a necessity.
Your friend's problems with his hard drives remind me of my own difficulties
and another reason why I think that CBM should build in the necessities. That
is the compatibility that comes from having a standard. If every machine had a
CBM HD controller, then compatibility with software and other hardware would be
much easier to achieve. This would ultimately make the machines easier to use
and A BETTER VALUE!
– Charles
All newer Amiga's DO have a HD controller, (ever since the intro of the
3000.)
Bob Comer — Cruising the nets on AutoPilot from Cheyenne, Wyoming
Charles:
As to the 1 of 6 Amigas having a harddisk, check in Europe, not many of
the Amigas there have HDs in them. As to Amigas needing a HD interface,
all current production Amigas come standard with a harddrive interface. It
might not be the one you or I would want it to be, but it's there.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Charles… ALL currently manufactured Amigas have HD controllers.
-Jonathan
Charles,
since the introduction of the A3000 a few years back there hasn't been ANY
new Amiga model without a built-in harddrive controller of the one (SCSI
A3000) or the other (IDE A600/1200/4000) kind. The entry-level machines
have hard disks as an option because, unlike a PC or Mac, you can actually
DO something on an Amiga without hard disk (ok, you got to have 2 floppy
drives then…). I assume that most A600 buyers see mainly a terrific
games machine and maybe later get down to productive work – these do not
need a hard drive but may want to add one later at reasonable cost – why
force them to buy expensive SCSI drives when they can perfectly well make
do with a cheap IDE drive? After all, we're not talking giant setups in
this part of the Amiga range (although, what some enthusiasts have done to
their A500's…). Here the same applies as for the PC market – if it's
expensive have the people pay for it when (and IF) they actually NEED it!
PCs are fairly inexpensive because not the best of the best is all crammed
in the package when it leaves the factory. Manufacturers pop in a cheap 20
Dollars Multi I/O Card with Floppy/IDE controllers, 2 Serial and a
Parallel port and – guess what? – most people will NEVER feel the need to
have something else in there (let alone a 400 Dollars SCSI Host adaptor)!
I'm too tired now to roam on in this fashion but I think you get my
point.
Shame about the missing clock, though, I grant you that.
// Chris coming in from Germany
\X/ on AutoPilot 1.051……….
Charles,
I know quite a few people that didn't go for the 4000 based on the lack of
SCSI. Not including the hard disk, clock and ram makes the computer seem
inexpensive. I think C= has lost alot of money to third parties on this
one.
-Richard
Richard –
Yes, if the 4000 had SCSI, I would probably have one, in spite of the other
limitations.
The problem with leaving all these add-ons to third parties is not the loss of
revenues to CBM, it is that all sorts of hardware and software
incompatibilities come out of it. CBM probably thinks they are doing a favor
by leaving these add-ons to third parties. I think they are doing a disservice
to their customers.
– Charles
All 4000's have hard drives. The only currently manufactures Amiga that
doesn't have a hard drive is the A1200 and even they do have HD
configurations and the motherboard has a HD controller at the bare
minimum.
-Jonathan
Jonathan,
The specs on the AGA amigas are pretty well known. I guess my message may
have been a little confusing as I followed the line about the 4000's lack
of SCSI with a line about the 1200's lack of clock, sufficient ram, and
hard drive without specifying the 1200.
-Richard
Actually, if C= was smart and on their toes they would take advantage of a
great weakness in Nintendo's product line right now. That being the Nintendo
CD-ROM or rather lack thereof. It's a huge black eye that sega just keeps
throwing in the face of Nintendo and it is getting worse all the time. The
rumored 32 bit cd attachment has been put off "indefinately".
What a possible alliance this could be, a 32bit cd console made by commodore,
who has no software, sold and marketed by a game giant that has no hardware!
This is a marriage made in heaven (I think), it kills two birds with one stone
by allowing Nintendo to one up Sega, and Commodore to pull itself up by the
bootstraps…
Who would buy it ??? Have you visited the gamers conference lately ? Just
mention Nintendo CD and they go wild. Have you been to a game store and seen
how much people are paying for the software ? $50 $60 $70 for game carts on
machines that can't touch the abilities of an Amiga… Heck I'd trade in my
Neo Geo for one today…
Throw in some LCD 3d glasses and $400 to $500 sounds about right to me….
James –
I don't profess to know anything about the games market. I used to play games
all night on occasion, but when I look at the games that are available in the
stores now, I just wonder WHY?
You may be right. This could be Commodore's market. If consumers are dumb
enough to buy anything, maybe CBM stands a chance – even with no marketing and
no software.
– Charles
Dale,
Tha Jaguar does have CD-ROM as an option, and without it, the price is
only $200, or at least that's the claim.
Dom Fontana
–> Sent from NY via AP <–
>>If there really is a CD32 comming out, I probably worked on it while I
>>was at Commodore.
Is it easy to talk with marbles in mouth? 🙂
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
No.
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
hehe I didn't think so!
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
I've heard that the CD32 is supposed to ship with a list price of $399…
If this is true, it could really put a new spin on things; perhaps become
the C64 of the 90's. CBM could also market it as the first 32-bit games
console that you can also write letters on…
//Jonathan,
\\//via AutoPilot
But you can't write letters on it – it doesn't have a keyboard.
The game console seems like a 1200 with a CD and without a keyboard. Could be
a winner, but it depends on two things: 1) exciting titles, and 2) good
marketing. It's possible that both could happen. In Europe, Commodore did an
excellent job of making the A500 a success, so they could do it again. I doubt
the marketing will be strong in the U.S., not because of "ability" but because
it's simply too expensive given C='s financial situation. Also, there's no
point in doing that kind of marketing unless the distribution is "psyched" to
go.
Paul,
First, you should say:
>>But you can't write letters on it – it doesn't have a keyboard…
…YET. I assume that CBM will at least put such a port on the machine,
for future expansion. They did so with CDTV, at any rate, so this is not
a bad guess.
More importantly, CBM needs a hit product in the States. Sooo…if they
are really looking for a success, they need it to happen here as well as
in Europe.
//Jonathan,
\\//via AutoPilot
Jonathan,
As I understand it, CD32 will include an adaptor for a "computer"
expansion chassis that will support the keyboard, I/O ports, etc. This
will be an item that appears later in the console's life.
Denny Atkin
Author, Denny Atkin's Best Amiga Tips and Secrets (cheesy plug!)
It might have a "standard" keyboard socket without a keyboard. And that
socket might even have serial lines on it such that you could use it for a
keyboard and a modem/slow network connection at the same time.
There is little point in marketing anything in the US to compete against
Sega/Nintendo. C= couldn't afford to produce one ad of their caliber,
much less run it. And it'd be a big gamble. But it might sell in the US
just on word of mouth and features.
In Europe, Nintendo and Sega don't have a grip on the market. The console
market isn't established there (people buy Amigas instead).
Dale Larson
– An Amiga Software Engineer with some time on his hands.
Dale,
this CD32 machine sure does sound good… but the who the heck are they (CBM)
gonna get to write software for it ? The computer game makers are slumping in
pc sales, and how many cart based game companies are willing to jump from the
lucrative sega and Nintendo markets ?
I certainly think the opportunity it there, what with Ninetendo looking really
stupid over the CD ROM issues, and Sega's 16 bit machine just doesn't have the
power for anything spectactular.
If they can price it under $400 and have a real blockbuster game, like street
fighter 2 was for Nintendo, then it'll sell. There's plenty of gizmo junkies
out here (like me) who would buy one. Heck I have a neo-geo that IMHO could not
compete with the system listed in those specs.
Sega have a very strong maket share in the UK Dale, you can even rent
their games in video stores, what you say about people buying Amigas
instead of consoles was very true 2 years ago but as the supply of Amiga
software dries up most games players seem to be going the console route.
The decision is probably made by the parents… Kid: "I want a Sega!"
Parents: "Lets get him a computer… whats that on the shelf next to the
Sega? an Amiga? we'll take it.."
Most consumer electronics stores over here have the same set-up, all the
consoles with carts in 'em so the kids can have a test play, and 2 Amigas,
one 600 and one 1200, both showing the purple insert disk anim… makes me
scream! untrained shop assistants seem unable to load a self-booting
disk…
Jonathan,
I wouldn't necessarily assume we'll see CD32 here in the United States.
And I certainly wouldn't assume Commodore will sell any if they do release
it here, since it could be a great success if it was ADVERTISED AND
PROMOTED — something the company isn't likely to do.
Denny Atkin
Author, Denny Atkin's Best Amiga Tips and Secrets (cheesy plug!)