#animators of all trades
63 messages in this thread
Hi there:
With the increadible advancment in computer animation and increasing complexity
of what can be achived with animation softwares, i was wondering if most
animators are still jack of all trades, and basically a one man/women show!!??
It would seem to that at this stage of the game and even more so in the future,
specilized skills would be more efficiant.
For example i think there should be people that only make meshes and are not
enevolved with anything else.
Then there are people who only do material editing and lighting of the scene.
Last, there are people who only do animation(apply motion to the objects)
I sometimes introduce myself as a computer animator. This in my mind refers to
all of the above! But come to think of it, not all of the above is animation. I
think model building and materil and lighting design skills are quite different
from animation skills and all of the above should not be refered to as the same
thing?!
Any way, maybee thats how it is in larger CG firms.
Just a thought! what do you think.
ara
Hello Ara,
First, congrats on such a nicely composed message! The punctuation and seperate
paragraphs certainly get your points across in a more readable fashion, I
think. 🙂
Although I have no way to characterize the animation community at large, I can
say that specialist-specific animation groups are certainly not unusual. Back
when things were ALWAYS slow, cumbersome, and expensive, it wouldn't be unusual
to see many folks involved in a single, relatively short project. Look at some
of the credit rolls in some of the early animation-specific reels! And now, I'm
quite sure that many houses still have folks who specialize at certain things
like direction, modeling, scene set-ups, shading, and animation to name a few.
This works, I'm sure, extremely well for many people. Working as a team for a
common goal can be a wonderful thing.
I must say, however, that for myself, working on only one part of the project
all the time would be very sad. I love modeling, and I love animating, and I
love setting up the lighting…you know what I mean. Thank God that 3DS allows
little guys like me the opportunity to actually deliver finished pieces that
have the potential of being professional in every way without spending gobs of
money that I haven't even come close to earning yet!
The only thing keeping me from exellence is me, and with some hard work and a
little luck, I'll keep improving, especially knowing that 3DS will always
deliver. As I (hopefully) get more proficient in each of the diciplines, it
amazes and excites me to witness the depth of each one, how different they can
be, and how each contributes so much to the finished piece.
So maybe we should think of 3D animation as a complex, modular entity (much
like 3DS itself), that has component parts that can be approached by one person
— or a whole team of them. It's all up to the folks' personal conceptual
vision of what their animation service should be, and that's a great freedom, I
feel, in an industry that is growing seemingly by leaps and bounds!
Just my 0.02$. <g>
-Alan
Great insight!
I personally love the fact that an average animator of all trades(specially the
ones using 3ds 🙂 ) can easly claim to be a one man production team. We do
everything!
From building sets to custume design and lighting to camerawork to direction
and production!!! it is all done by one man. In a way we are familiar with all
aspects of creating an entertainment peice. what other field can offer the same
scope!!
What i meant with my message is that each module/aspect of computer animation
is getting so involved and rich that specialization is the only way to fully
utilize them, i think.
For example: the new mat.edit; it is so capable and the combinations are so
many and it allows such great room for creativity that i think it can be
utilized so much more efficiantly if on is stricktly concentrated on that
module only!(imho). the same also applies to the other aspects of animation i
think!
And there is my $0.01 worth. 😉
ara
p.s. Regarding messages! i try??!! just dont ask me about spelling! please!!
>:-(
Ara,
(What a nice, readable, civilized message! Wow.)
I certainly know what you mean about the growing need for specialization in
producing animation. I've already recognized the need for such as I know that
there are others who can build meshes better and faster than I can so I use the
services of such "specialists" regularly. I guess most of us also use
specialists when we buy textures and other images.
I think in the future we'll see more of that as things are getting easier they
are also getting more complex. I mean that although producing animation today
is easier than it was back when one had to write raw code to get a box to
rotate on screen but we have so many more tools and techniques to use.
Think what has happened with filmaking: The first filmakers were just guys with
a crank-operated camera. Then they started getting specialized help and now a
movie set is a collection of highly skilled specialists in many, many different
disciplines.
As Alan discussed (he is pretty smart for an ex-rock&roller) it is a wonderful
thing to be able to do everything yourself. It's very satisfying. But as the
pool of competent and talented animators grows, one begins to become more aware
of one's weaknesses. Kinda the way I feel after watching the demo reel. Then
the desire to have one's work look really good will take precedence over the
desire to do it all yourself.
I can see the day when I'll finish an animation and send it to someone who can
light it just right. I'm ready.
Alec Jason
I am glad you guys are happy with my message format now. Thanks!
I agree with you regarding the day that one will send his work outside to a
specialist to light the scene. But at the same time i am sad in a way, becouse
as you guys say and feel, it is fun to do all aspects.
If the quality of work grows to a point where specialists are needed, then in
orther to be competitive in the quality area one has to sub. his work to
specialists.
We will see what happens!
ara
Alec:
Yes, I think more people will be required – take a look at the Keyframe
Scripting language in R4 that Autodesk showed at Siggraph – it's a combination
of C and Basic, closer to C. You will still need the artists and the computer
'geeks' (apologies to Gus <g>) to do high-level animation.
Funny – 3DS is now getting so powerful to compete with the workstations, but in
doing so needs to get more complicated to give you the added control. Two
steps forward, maybe one sideways!
Greg Pyros
Greg,
What's funny is that as programs like Wavefront get easier for non-programmers
to use, 3DS introduces new levels of sophistication that bring it's quality up
to par with Wavefront (et. al.) yet require the kind of programming extentions
that made Wavefront unique but nearly inaccesable. It'll be a bit of a
tightrope walk but my guess is that Yost will pull it off and keep 3DS balanced
between right and left brain dominance.
Bruce
As an example, the IK KXP and the KSCRIPT KXP work together beautifully for
integrated brain functions. <g> You can use the scripting language to create
procedural motion for an end-effector (dummy object or whatever) and then use
the IK routine to transform a hierarchy to follow that procedural motion.
The scripting stuff will open up animation to computer science students and
professionals, along with high-level animation grafhikers (as TF likes to say).
We're going to see some incredibly mutant procedural animation work out there
very soon.
– G
>>grafhikers<<
Shouldn't that be grapHACKERs?
Way back durring my VPG days at Adesk (oh it seems so long ago now) we were
polite and called them 'image developers'.
Mutants, pure and simple.
J-me
Gary,
Yep, that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You're doing it fella – full speed
ahead.
Bruce
You know what they say… "Damn the mosquitos!"
– G
Bruce,
Computer animation has always been a balancing act between right brain / left
brain functions, especially for those of us who free-lance. Between the
hardware and the software constraints, restrictions and hassles, creativity
stills eeks it way into the equation. If anybody is going to pull it off my
money is with the Yost Group. And you've accurately stated the dilemma. If its
going to be more powerful, its going to need to increase in complexity. The
question is how much and still be average joe friendly.
Stay tuned as this fascinating saga unfolds. <g>
-JE
John:
I downloaded your flying logos. Wow! Really nice stuff.
I love the Industrial Design the best!! But they are all nice.
Thanks
ara
Thanks Ara!
What can I say, I work hard at it, and 3DS delivers the goods. 🙂
I've used the Industrial Design scene for several animations, just by changing
the Logo. One way to keep your costs down and maximize your effort. (Shhhh….
<g>)
-JE
Its really nice!!
What i really like about it is the Texture! What is it??
Ofcourse the lighting is also fantastic!!
Keep it up.
Thanks
ara
>> What I really like about it is the Texture! <<
Yes it is nice.
Tex1 = OLDMETAL.JPG 99
Bump = OLDMETAL.JPG 29
Ref = VALLEY_L.TGA 47
Metal shader activated.
Full WHITE Ambient and Diffuse
Shinness 68 Strength 44
Sub\Out
The rest is lighting. <g>
I'll be interested to see how you use it. 🙂
-JE
Hey Bruce!
Where were YOU at Siggraph?
I wuz lookin' all over for you but didn't see ya…
-Alan
Alan,
No SIGGRAPH for me this year. The cheapskates at TV Technology magazine refused
to pay my way, so I sat it out. I missed seeing you and all the other ASOFT
vets, hope you all used up my allocation of fun ! Next year it's right here in
Los Angeles !
Bruce
TV Tech was there, in the form of the promotors of their new mag, Computer
Video. I looked around, didn't see Tiana Hickman in person, so I walked on by.
🙂
Re: Computer Video
I've never actually met Tina either !
I hope that I have been notable in my absense from thier new
publication. I felt quite strongly that my reviews in the computer
video section of TV Technology magazine these past few years were at
least partly the reason they were able to start up a new rag. As such
I've held out for a better deal — all I wanted was a few more bucks,
business cards, plus travel and expenses to the major conferances
(ie: SIGGRAPH,NAB,COMDEX), but no dice, so my stuff will continue in
TV Technology rather than in Computer Video.
>>Used up all my allocation for fun<<
I did my best!
See ya next year, if not sooner! If yer ever down SD way, be sure to give me a
holler…
-Alan
Where is the 96 siggraph, out of curiousity? Florida was a little far for me,
financially, and I had to sit out as well.
Next Siggraph is in downtown LA (ugh) and the next is New Orleans, I believe.
May be UGH (downtown L.A.), but much more accessible to me that Florida.
New Orleans would be cool. Never been there.
Greg,
>> in doing so needs to get more complicated to give you the added control.
Complicated is a relative thing. So far 3DS isn't as complicated as DGS or
Alias and as far as I'm concerned, scripting is a solid step forward. Alot is
going to depend on implementation. Even AutoCAD has AutoLisp and that hasn't
detered anyone, and I'm sure not everyone uses it.
But if the general argument here is correct, then I should take up an offer
I've had to join an Audio/Video consortium, something I've resisted. What do
you think? <g>
-JE
JE:
Depends on the consortium, the individuals and chemistry between them are the
most important factors. Oh, yes, access to equipment isn't bad either!
Every time you put yourself out for someone, you have a chance of getting
burned. We got rid on someone last February, lots of artistic talent, but no
morals or business sense, still owes us money. His new partner is about to
throw him out, also. He will never learn, and probably never go anywhere.
But a good association can be great for all parties, with a lot of synergy
developed. Good luck!
Greg Pyros
Greg,
Good sound advice as usual. Synergy may very well be the most important factor.
I was thinking more along the lines of volume of work and type of work that I
would become immeshed in. (bad pun) I have alot more flexibility in that regard
now but if the future truly is in a collection of animators working together,
then its time for me to branch out and this would be a way to do it. On the
other hand if I can continue to do what I'm doing as a solo artist I would
rather do that. I get some really interesting projects that way and a lot more
diversity in the type of work I do. Which I enjoy.
As far as access to video/audio equipment goes, I'm pretty well set. Computer
crunching power… well lets just say it would be nice to have you for a
neighbor. <g> I need more but I've got a plan for that as well. BTW when is
that SGI port going to be avialable. <BG> (Rhetorical Q)
Thanks,
-JE
Hi there…
Yes, I got sidetracked on my thought regarding "animators of all
trades". I meant to compare to the early days of photography, where the
photographer made his own camera, his own film, took the pictures, and then
developed, printed, and marketed the pictures himself <herself>.
Gary,
I understood your comparison and its a good one. You're probably correct that
the number of people involved will increase. I do share work with other
animators but not so much because of specific skills but to get the work done,
however you make a good point that I hadn't really considered in depth.
-JE
Alan,
well put. I personally view 3DS as my team. I do have one artist employed
to help with the modeling as this seems to be he most time consuming area for
me, (well, and the test renderings) but for the most part, 3DS is a whole team
of technicians, artists, camerapersons, lighting experts, etc. On extremely
large projects I could see were a team of four could be more efficient in the
the delivery of the project, but as you nearly stated, it would take alot of
the fun out of it, besides, I am somewhat of a control freak anyway.
We are considering hiring a sculpture? (not sure if that is spelled correctly),
this guy has truely magical hands and has done some local work around here that
is just too amazing to put into words. I want him sculpting while I digitize
his work. We haven't decided what 3-D digitizer to go with yet. As for a team,
I would just as soon leave it at two or three persons MAX with the exception of
field reps.
BTW, haven't been here in a while so I felt compelled to jump in and say
SOMETHING. (g)
later
Merlin G. Farmer
Crystal Cave Animagix
Hi Merlin:
>>We are considering hiring a sculpture?
Really?
I have one here that has worn out his worth. He just sits naked, holding up
his head with his chin in hand and thinks, never moves or says anything. I'll
let him know you are looking to hire someone of his talents. <BG>
I KNEW I misspelled Sculptor. (We just moved into a downtown office and I
cannot find anything yet, including my dictionary, and sometimes my head, as in
the case of the mispelling of such a simple word.)
I don't think I want your Sculpture hanging around here, he sounds like dead
weight. I bet he is stoned all of the time too. (laughing at own silly pun).
It's been ages since I have been on the forum and it feels good to be
supporting the phone system once again. I have come to the conclusion that the
phone bill is well worth the mental stimuli that I get from all of the shared
wisdom here at ASOFT.
Speaking of phone bill, I guess I better mail them the check,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
later
Merlin G. Farmer
Crystal Cave Animagix
Merlin:
As always, its good to hear from you. I hope things start to pick up for you.
So the b*tch got the car, the cash, the house, eh? You've got 3DS, the WORLD
WILL BE YOURS!
Bob
Bob,
You are absolutely right, we have 3DS and the WORLD WILL BE OURS.
Sam & Merlin
>> hiring a sculpture
<bg>
Hey, Merlin, long time no hear!
Yeah, right now I'm doing both teamwork, and the do-it-all thing on different
contracts.
I hope everything is going OK for you.
Digitizing sculptures really sounds like a GREAT way to get many kinds of
models done.
Take care,
-Alan
Alan,
Yessir, been along time since I have visted the forum. For awhile, I just
couldn't get there from here.
I have been training an artist for 8 months now. Whew, lotta work, but well
worth it. He is an excellent cartoonist and character animator. He had never
ran a computer before we met. I am a better teacher than what I thought, (plus
he learns very fast). I decided sometime ago that without one other artist, I'd
blow deadlines. We will upload some of his work in a few months but our hands
are full right now just surviving. The paperwork associated with running a
business is mind boggling. I lost my accountant, whom is now my X-wife. $12000
cash, a house, a car and my baby boy vanished before I knew what happened. Went
thru a couple of months of depression but I am BACK and stronger and better
than before.
Team work takes some getting use to, but I think I am about to adapt. The
sculptor I mentioned is so talented it makes my head swim. I cannot wait to get
my hands on a 3-D digitizer. He has a trailer full of sculpted models that I am
just dying to digitize. We will upload samples of his work in a few months as
well. He sculpts faster than I can model.
We are about to Emerge
ssssSSSSOMBODDDyyyyy sssssSSSSTOPPPPP MEEEEEEeeeeeeee!
My Jim Carey impersonation on
paper.
Merlin G. Farmer
Crystal Cave Animagix
*Sheesh*, Merlin, it sounds as if you've really been through some trying times.
It's good to hear you are back on track.
Training a non computer-literate artist to use 3DS sounds like it may be quite
a daunting task. But isn't it great to see some artistic folks "take" to a
technology like this? There are a bunch of friends of mine who work for a local
game company that *never* used computers, but could draw wonderfully. Now,
virtually ALL of them are awesome 2D computer artists an most are already
producing excellent work in 3DS. Just warms the 'ole heart to see 'em go at it.
Have fun emerging!
-Alan
Alan,
Turning a talented artist into a 3DS Mutant was more simple than I had
originally thought. Also, as a teacher, I got to mutate a bit more myself.
Sam & Merlin
Crystal Cave Animagix
I've NEVER taught somebody something without learning something myself!<g> Kind
of an instant "what goes around comes around".
-Alan
Alan,
I have to agree with you entirely. I am not a bonafied teacher of any
particular subject, but there have been many occasions when I had to teach, or
train, and I have always learned something more. I think I can understand some
of the 'needs to teach' that I have heard about.
BTW, from some of the threads here, I understand you are an ex-rock 'n' roller?
Your name does appear to be familiar to both me and Sam. We went thru the
credits of our old obsolete LPs' but did not see your name listed. Just curious
as to what band or bands you played with. Both Sam and I have been music buffs
for better than 27 years. I cannot remember every credit from every LP that I
have
read , so my apologies to you for not knowing. No reply neccessary if this is
private information.
Sam & Merlin
Crystal Cave Animagix
Hi Merlin,
Recently I began giving 3DS-oriented seminars at a local college. Finally,
I get to go to college!<g>
It's interesting to me that you have gotten the idea that I might have been
on some of your (old) records.<g> Actually, I never really got that far in
terms of recorded accomplishments. If I had stayed in LA in the late
sixties instead of moving to New England, I think I would have at least
done some studio work other than radio commercials, jingles, etc.
My R&R days were long, but I never gained any national fame & fortune. I
played in club bands in the New England area from the early seventies to
the later eighties. I gained a certain amount of local nortoriety, but
never made the "big time". Probably just as well 'cause famous folks often
give up a thing I value very much: one's personal privacy.
So now I make my living with another creative vocation called 3D. It's not
quite as exciting as playing rock guitar for a living, but it's got ALOT of
great things going for it, especially all the fine folk I've met in the
industry. I thank God I was able to find another "art-oriented", creative
way to make a living.
And I'll still play guitar anytime I get a chance. If I never make another
nickle playing music it would be fine with me. Just gimme a couple of cold
beers and dive blues/rock club, and I'm a happy guy.<g>
-Alan
Maybe what we need is a 3d animation version of the Rock Bottom
Remainders…
>> Just gimme a couple of cold beers and dive blues/rock club, and I'm a
happy guy.<g> <<
I'm hoping this is what you have in mind for Sig 95 in smelLA. This would
be the perfect atmosphere for the jam, IMHO.
Ara,
There's always been both and I expect it will remain that way. More
advancements work to the benefit of the individual as much as for the company.
Used to be you needed four people to make a band. Now with electronic
reproduction, a studio can consist of a one person band. Provided that person
is proficient in all aspects of music. So it is with animation. Its getting
pretty tough for one person to do it all though, and I think its probably more
efficient to have an office manager, and Account Exec as well as someone
devoted to animation specifically. If it was _just_ animating <g> … no
problem. 🙂
-JE
What about dividing the animation process into specilized modules??
Do you think that it is going to get easier for one person to do it all or is
it going to get harder due to increased complexity and room for creativity
offerd by these new generation of softwares?
ara
Ara,
>> What about dividing the animation process into specialized modules…
I think to a degree that its already being done, if I understand the question
correctly. Someone establishes the overall look and lighting and materials;
technically you could have someone just do lighting… once the materials have
been selected… then you and can then parcel out the modeling, which once
complete can then have the materials applied and ultimately put to motion.
>> Do you think that it is going to get easier for one person to do it all…
Yes… I think the most important quality an animator is going to have to have
is a strong arts background. I have watched it get increasing easier and more
flexible to do things over the last seven years. To me, especially with 3DS,
its gotten easier to do more complex things in animation. If there's any trick
to it, its going to be keeping up with the technological changes. Software
that's not easy to use, unless it has a really innovative feature is going to
be passed by the wayside.
So as John T. mentioned in a parrallel thread, the Plug-in concept is going to
give you increased flexibility while at the same time, increased ease of use.
Knowing how to integrate it all is going to be the art, and as you correctly
point out there's alot to know.
I have a great little short story written anonlymously from a guy at ILM
entitled… "Why I quit my high paying Yuppie job at ILM and went back to
school." The point being, even though the guy was very technically competent,
he realised that what he really needed was a solid foundation in the arts.
Of course the whole process can be broken down just like it is in Film and
Video but the beauty of it is, it doesn't have to be. That's going to be
dependent on the skill and artistry of the individual.
-JE
Here's my Canadian .02 worth (times .7 exchange rate)…
I agree with the comments in this thread. My sister, an art educator,
author, and artist, recently went digital to expand her knowledge and increase
her capabilities.
This "debate" rages in the art field, i.e. "computer art, is it art?".
Well, like any other medium has been it is just in its infancy. Photographers
fought this battle, painters in each genre have fought this battle. These
mediums follow the same general course: they are invented, the early users make
their own materials (your own paint, your own camera, your own program
code…), they fight for acceptance from the currently estasblished "arts", and
then they're all just part of the family.
Computer graphics is just another tool for expressing yourself. It's
WHAT you express that counts. You can do paint-by-numbers or black velvet
portraits, it's not the medium in question, it's your talent and your images.
Learn all you can, do your best, don't be afraid to ask for help, study
other people's work, or work in a vaccuum to avoid mental interference from
other people's ideas. Whatever, why waste time asking if it is art?
(IMHO, FYI, BTW, <g>)
Gary
Gary:
It is Art for sure!!! But it is also procedure and knowhow!
ara
Gary,
I don't think I was asking the question… "is it art?". I assume CG animation
is an art and the thrust of my comments to Ara is that studying the arts
whether it be film or traditional medium is going to be the best preparation
for what's to come (provided of course one gets or has some experience working
with computers). I also expect that more educational institutions will in time
develop an art curriculum designed around CG much like film, cel animation or
photography.
The question "is it art?" has been applied to everything not restrictive of
medium. I agree with your perspective and I trust I didn't imply otherwise. I
assume any medium you can create in has the pontential to be art which is
probably a fairly liberal interpretation. To me its not a question of the
medium but as you say what you do with it.
-JE
John:
>> I have a great little short story written anonymously from a guy at ILM >>
entitled… "Why I quit my high paying Yuppie job at ILM and went back to >>
school."
Funny, I just ran across the same story while cleaning up some old files last
week – the author was Jonathan Luskin. The bibliography is as good as the
story! How many of those books do you have in your library?
Greg Pyros
Greg,
What I got (second hand) was a mimeographed copy of apparently Jonathan
Luskin's story. The author was credited by "anonymous". Included was an equally
funny list of what it takes to be an animator, such things as a degree in
Physics, Mathematics, Computer Programming, the Arts; the jist of which was
five times more than one could do in a lifetime :-). I was looking for it last
night but it seems to be buried somewhere. <g> It was circulated around
animators in the late 80's. Sorry to say I don't have any of his other works.
-JE
I agree that art background is the key.
Computer animation is not just procedure!!
On the other hand i think each aspect of an animation can be a specilized
field of art and procedure on its own!
For example: i could be very good and artistic in my approach towards character
animeation (i can make a simple cube express emotions and do the tango) but on
the other hand, i might be totally out to lunch when it comes to set design and
color coordination!!
This is where specialization comes into the picture!
In order to have a "consitant production quality", i see specialization a very
likly scenario in the future .
ara
Ara,
>> I see specialization a very likely scenario in the future… <<
Could be but I can see a lot of agruments for both approaches which leads me to
believe it won't be so cut and dry.
-JE
Only time will tell.
Frankly i enjoy doing it all! So no complaints on my end! 🙂
Take care
ara
>> Frankly I enjoy doing it all… <<
So do I, but to be efficient I can see your point, I'm just kind of reluctant
to accept it. <g> Ah… what does it matter, as long as you're having fun. 🙂
-JE
>:-)
ara
Ara,
I read this gigantic saga and since the begining I agree with you. I think
people should specialize in doing what they can do best, and I guess the only
reason why that is not happening is because the "Art" (I consider it a form of
art) is so new and young. I just love to do everything, but what I really enjoy
is to apply textures and play with light effects.
Yes, I do believe somebody could model and animate a project and send it to
another person to apply the light, just like in movies or plays, the director
doesn't take care of everything. If he needs somebody to create scenes, he
hires a specialized person. If he needs light effects, he hires another person,
and so on.
And I also have a hard time describing myself: am I a Computer Graphics Artist,
or a modeler, or an animator, or what? People from inside the trade understand
what I mean when I call myself a modeler, but what about the clients, that know
nothing about it? They usually say "what, a modeler, what do you mean?"
Specialize, YES! Better names, YES!
Eni
Eni:
I, like you, love doing everything myself too! I know i am not good at
modeling! so i really dont like that process.
I love material Editing and most of all animation. When i say i like material
editing, that does not mean that i am good at it. I know that if someone
specilizes in this, they can be much better and faster at getting the desired
effect!!
So altough i like most everything involved! I still think that specialization
will result into much better output!!
(unless you are as talented as David!! But there are not that many of them
around!?).
In anycase i think only time will tell. We will see!!??
thanks
ara
Ara,
I totally agree with you, specialization is the way to get better. I think we
should do whats best. But I think the 3D industry is too young to have
specialized people. I'm looking forward to the day when I can play all day
long with textures and shadows.
Bye,
Eni
The DAY shall come……!!
ARA