#Pushing OS/2
77 messages in this thread
Betty,
Things are going well. Knock on wood 8). We have become the largest commercial
printer on Maui. I'm about to buy a new 2-color press. We are a full service
bureau with two imagesetters, an Iris color proofing device, lots of Macs, PCs
and our sad little network of Amigas. Funny thing, the Amiga has such a bad
reputation in the Graphic Arts world that the mere presence of the machines
resulted in loss of some business when we first got started. That's all history
now.
Despite the unpleasant news in the Amiga community, there are really exciting
things happening in computers again. I encourage everyone to get a demo of
IBM's OS/2 running on a fast 486 or Pentium machine. Better yet, a Power PC (I
hope the Power PC beats the brains out of the Pentium). Try OS/2 for a while –
you wont miss AmigaDos any more! And there is _real_ potential (read, software
support) for this multitasking powerhouse! Of course it needs more hard disk
real estate than the size of the entire hard drive that just failed in my
A2000, and its memory requirements are substantial, but what the heck, a
full-blown Pentium system costs less than my hard-drive equipped A2000 when I
first got it.
Rich
Rich, it seems to me you are not being fair. You are comparing ancient
Amigas (pre-286 in clone terms) to the latest clones and Macs. Why don't
you compare a 4000 with OS 3.1 and maybe a Picasso graphics board? Whole
different ball game <g>. I'll stake this 25MHz '040 system against a
66MHz 486DX2 in most things. I know. I have both on my desk at work. I
also use OS/2, which I definitely like more than Windows, but is no
comparison to Workbench 3.1 as a desktop. I would chose it as a server
platform, though.
As soon as the 060 is out, the Pentium comes down. The RISC machines are
another story, but still a very specialized market. Anyway, best of luck
in your endeavors!
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
DJ,
Oboy! I didn't mean to start this kind of war again. I left this kind of
discussion behind years ago. DJ, our computer systems are mission critical in
every respect. In every conceivable way, I have to have productive software and
a rock-solid support system in terms of the integrity of the market for the
hardware itself. As with every piece of equipment in my shop, I must be able to
get help in case of equipment problems or other technical issues. The Amiga
environment failed me in all those respects several years ago. With the latest
developments, it is insanity to speak of the Amiga as a viable platform in any
sense in a business environment. Sorry, Amiga will remain a curiosity, a blip
(although a brilliant blip) in the history of computer development. Yes, Amiga
will retain a core of die-hard supporters, and I include myself in that group
with some caveats. But it is time to recognize that now we must add to Amiga's
legacy, an inept and corrupt manufacturer (corrupt in the intellectual sense)
and now a technology that is as lacking with respect to other technologies, as
was manufacturer support with respect to the support that Apple and the MSDOS
world gave to their products.
I exist in a business environment where corporations are purging Macs from the
desks of graphic design professionals and are replacing those magnificent
machines with Pentium machines! In such a world do you really think you can
seriously continue to laud Amiga, a machine for which you can't be sure you can
buy an Ethernet board tomorrow, as a serious machine?
Boy am I gonna get dumped on for this message! Oh, well. 8)
Rich
Rich,
The one exception to your analysis is the video market. There is still a
bang/buck Amiga advantage there and the failure-service risks make it
viable as an oupost to hold until the Mac/PC world catches up. Based on
what I saw at NAB, that is about 18 – 30 months.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
The Amiga _is_ a video machine. It's survival over the last couple of years has
been due to the existence of the Toaster, and little else. If I had a video
oriented business I would be _very_ uncomfortable with the fact that there is
essentially no manufacturer in existence, or a substitute for that manufacturer
to support my equipment – a _horrible_ position for a business to be in.
I think the Mac or PC video market will have Toaster level performance in less
than 6 months. After that, the growth curve will be straight up. And you know
what that means in terms of the existence of Amiga.
Rich
Rich, the Amiga is Much More than a video machine. It also happens to be
THE video platform. If one third of the resources spent to make PC
business applications were spent on Amiga platform applications, the PC
world would look even more dismal than it does now while attempting to run
sophisticated applications. It's like saying a Ferrari stinks because
nobody's driving it.
Oh, well!
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
DJ,
No. It's like saying a Ferrari stinks as a racing machine if it is no longer
being manufactured, no parts are available, it requires special fuel that is
not being manufactured, few people know or want to know how to repair or
maintain it _if_ they could get the parts.
A brilliant piece of engineering never stinks simply because the world has
passed it by, or because it has become trapped by the very technological
breakthroughs that made it the legend it once was. But once it is no longer
relevant, once it takes more effort to just support it than use it, it belongs
in a museum. I'm sorry, our beloved macine is at that point in its brief
evolution. Technology is filled with such eventualities. Aside from Video,
Amiga is a slow, plodding contraption with lots of patches to keep it
marginally functioning in other endeavors. And any productivity in those areas
is painfully amateurish.
Amiga _was_ desktop video. By this time next year its contribution even in the
video arena will be small compared to the capabilities of other platforms. If I
am wrong. If some major enterprise decides to continue to use Amiga technology
in a video-oriented machine, I will gladly admit my mistake. What will you say
when NewTek has a PowerPC or Pentium 'Toaster?'
Rich
Look! An Amiga clone!
Well, I just wish I could afford an SGI workstation like what you have.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
DJ,
SGI workstation? I don't have no steenking SGI workstation. Last timme I talked
to me dealer in Honolulu an Indy configured to _almost_ perform as well as my
Macs came to just under $30,000. And software is much too sparse. For my next
Jurassic Park epic, however . . .
Rich
Stay tuned …
I'd settle for a new Close Encounters, which this whole soap opera almost
feels like <g>. BTW, anybody read about the Ten Top Things That The 95 in
Windows 95 might mean in Newsweek?
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Haven't you heard? "Windows 95" has now been delayed until the 21st century,
will be introduced as "Windows 2001", and will run on Intel's secret
new VERY-RISKY-processor — the HAL II.
And they'll be running an ad that opens with a prehistoric 8088 picking up a
club…
–apl
I haven't read the Top Ten Things That The 95 in Windows 95 might mean in
Newsweek, but I'll bet that one of them will be "Minimum memory
requirements in MegaBytes", or "The amount of HD space needed for the new
Terminal program". 😉 Anyone else want to take a potshot guess?
–IBM compatable technician by day, Amiga madman by night–
Rick Green, Mobile, Al
> Aside from Video, Amiga is a slow, plodding contraption …
Ummm.. that 'slow, plodding…' remark describes my 486Dx2-66 running Windows,
and describes it much more politely than I ever have.
-larry
Larry,
I guess people _do_ get work done in corporate America on Intel machines with
spread sheets, word processors, etc (_not_ databases!). Maybe they don't.
Maybe, I dunno, but I have found Windows the single most unproductive,
destructive, counter-intuitive operating environment to ever exist. When a
customer brings in a job that has been done on a windows machine, we shudder.
If we are lucky, we can bring the file up in the equivalent Mac program – which
solves _some_ problems. If, not, without fear of exageration, I can say that we
can get the job done faster by doing the whole thing from scratch ourselves
(typesetting, graphic design, layout, etc) than to try to use the customer's
files. 95% of all the problems are due to Windows itself plodding along. To say
nothing of the pain in dealing with the Intel machine's architecture.
Rich
Actually, we're setting up a pretty interesting 'neural-net' (buzz word
supplied by vendor) set-up on Intel machines. OS/2 Gateways talking to DB2
and IMS databases on our mainframe doing bizarre calculations for credit
card fraud based on customer profiles. Interesting.
Windoze clients unfortunately.
Robb
C'mon, Rich, that's not totally fair. Solitaire works without a hitch (as
long as you're not doing anytihing else at the same time, of course), and
we know how much it improves management productivity …
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Larry,
I would agree with you. However, I do not know if he has had an opportunity to
see an AGA machine at work. I agree that the AGA chipset is not what it is
suppose to be. However, I do find it quiet impressive when used with… our
software! ;-}
Regards,
John Chang
Rich,
You are absolutely right in your last message. I myself recommend PCs to
many people who ask me about what to get for their particular situation.
From a business case you are absolutely right in the current situation.
But your earlier message was technically slamming the Amiga in comparison
with OS/2 and Intel systems, and I do not agree in that scenario.
Just because you can't get parts easily for a Ferrari F-40 doesn't mean
you need to slam it <g>. But I definitely wouldn't make it part of my
bread and butter. I sympathize with having to use other platforms for
business reasons, and I can definitely sympathize with someone's inability
to support two platforms, which is most of us. But that's no reason to
call a Mac magnificent and the Amiga an obsolete oddity 🙂
Peace and Prosperity Through Technology!
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
DJ
I have _not_ slammed the Amiga's technology. Never have, never will. I was one
of those 'visionaries' who thought that this brilliant little machine (and the
A1000 _was_ little) would set the world on fire. It was so far ahead of Macs
and PCs when it was first introduced. I'm sorry – that's all that can really be
said. I never said it was an oddity. Obsolete, yes.
Rich
Oh, well, Rich, I guess we have different ideas on what obsolete means
<g>. I view an A4000/040 with 18MB memory, a Picasso graphics board and a
nice 17" monitor as an ideal personal desktop, superior to a similar
486DX2 even at 66MHz. Neither is suitable for HEAVY commercial use such
as you need, yet both are mainstream systems in their respective camps for
personal power users. You need a Hummer, while I'm looking for something
like a Mustang Cobra <g>.
It appears to me you're talking horsepower, and I'm talking handling and
cornering. The personal desktop better than WB 3.1 on the Amiga hardware
architecture has yet to appear. Using RISC gets you horsepower, but
they're still using mediocre desktop software and the prevalent platform
(Windows/Intel) just doesn't cut it. And I find the Mac OS environment
too restrictive and inflexible, and it still can't multitask properly,
something I do constantly. But if you're always in one app, I guess you
wouldn't have much need for it. We have different needs, is all.
For servers, no contest. NT and OS/2 have server-oriented aspects
AmigaDOS doen't address, nor was designed for. But for a desktop I find
OS/2 too bloated. It does have some nice stuff, though.
And for applications, yes, there are killer specialized and general
consumption apps under Windows that I wish I had in my Amiga. But these
are not the platform per se.
In all, I find obsolete the wrong term. Unsuitable for some stuff and
many people, absolutely.
But, no problemo. One of the great things in life is to experience
different opinions and enjoy them and learn from them another perspective.
Enjoy your favorite platform!
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
DJ,
As you say Oh, well. I _was_ talking handling, not horse power. I get angry
when I see Intel based systems touted on the basis of processor speed. Certain
benchmarks are great, and it is wonderful to be able to brag about the inherent
superiority of the design of a multi-tasking OS as we were able to do for some
years there.
But I measure performance by how much work I can get done. I used my Amiga
systems for several years and got _tons_ of quality typesetting out th e door
every day. What good is a 66Mhz 386 machine when it takes a week (actually) to
get a simple document out of the macxhine due to the inadequacies of the
operating environment. The same job is on the press (in a more professional
manner also) in 30 minutes off the Mac.
Amigas simply don't perform in _any_ area outside of video, anymore except for
getting something displayed on the screen.
I can't fault anyone fop bragging about how they have configured they're own
belchfire 64 system to do all kinds of interesting stuff within the confines of
their own office. But my definition of a useful computer is the ability to
easily and productively interface with the rest of the world and produce
visible work. In those terms, Amiga just can't compete.
And with the demise of CBM this is all moot, anyhow
8)
Rich
Rich,
The demise of Commodore, not necessarily the Amiga technology.
Regards,
John Chang
Let us hope!
Rich
Amen …
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Rich;
I couldn't let your negative comments pass without adding my two cents.
I am running an A2000, GVP G'40 @33 MHz, DKB 2 Megs chip ram, 16 Meg 32
bit ram on GVP board. I have 2 internal HD's (total storeage 303 Megs) and
a Bernoulli 150 Meg external HD; plus OpalVision board, Vlab digitizer,
PicassoII, and Emplant.
Not long ago, 3 sales reps from a company that sells computer related
video and graphic systems to big companies in the New York suburban area
came to my house to demo a Polaroid CI3000 unit. When I told them on the
phone that I had an Amiga, they wondered whether or not it would function
with their unit, since, of course, they worked almost exclusively with
IBMs and compatibles, and had never seen an Amiga.
I connected the unit to my system and started booting up various 24-bit
pictures which I had processed in various ways in order to see what the
output quality would be on the Polaroid unit. As I did this, I could see
them looking at each other over my shoulder. I stopped and looked at their
amazed faces. "What's the matter",I said, expecting them to say something
to the effect that they couldn't believe I was considering spending a
considerable amount of money on such a pathetic computer.
They said they had never seen such a fast computer system in any of the
businesses they visited! Their awed expressions were a compliment to my
Amiga.
The only mistake I made was not getting a written statement from them.
Hank
Hank,
Amiga a fast system? Oh, really?
24 bit images huh? what size are the files. Sure my Amigas boot in seconds, My
Macs and PCs in minutes, so?
MY 24 bit files are 30 megs on average. We typically handle files between 100
and 200 megs. On my A3000 I cannot handle anything over 2 megs without
contemplating going out to lunch while the file loads. Try handling a 4×5 scan
at 24 bits x 300 dpi. Thats about 7 megs. An insignificantly small file in
terms of the typical needs of electronic pre-press. What program would you use
to do image manipulation of such a file on your Amiga? How much time would you
be willing to spend waiting for disk access?
I've been there Hank. My Amigas have multiple 500 meg hard drives. I've tried
to use Gigamem for virtual memory. I've populated the motherboards with the
maximum RAM they can hold. Performance stinks compared to a MAC SE 30, to say
nothing of my 950 Quadras.
Sure, you can load a 24 bit 640×400 image on an Amiga pretty fast. So? What's
such an image good for, other than screen display?
If you think I'm just some MAC nut who can't even spell Amiga, you're dead
wrong. I've pushed Amiga technology as far as anyone you've ever sspoken to. I
had CBM engineers on the phone two days after I got my A1000 in Oct, 1985 to
complain of serious bugs in the 1.0 version of the OS, and have stayed abreast
of everything this machine has to offer.
It is now, seriously deficient with regard to current technology. Period. And
the hope for any serious development of this machine further is nil. I feel as
bad about that as anyone else. It's simply reality.
Rich
Rich,
'The right tool for the job' is a good rule to live by. Many people in
the user community develop fanatical loyalty at the expense of
productivity and good sense (hence the proliferation of PCs). Based on
the description of your job, the Amiga is the wrong tool. It would be
like using a hammer to drive a screw – not impossible, but difficult and
messy.
One of the problems of the Amiga is that the company never deifined the
machine's mission and never let the market guide them in this respect. It
won it's general recognition as a video tool. CBM could have used that as
a base to become an even wider MM tool (they tried that too with too
little to late). They never took advantage of multi-tasking and
multi-platform emulation (the bridge board was always an after thought) to
put it in the proper place in the coporate tool box. (After all, it is
corporate sales and prevelence that drove the PC into the home market and
probably accounted for many Mac sales in the home market as well).
So, you should be happy that the Mac is there for you in as the proper
tool to do your job. I'm in video. I'm happy to have the Amiga's as they
are at present, by far a superior tool for video. My dissappointment is
that C= never figured out the machine it tried to market. If they had, we
would not be where we are today.
Video people and computer people hardly talked to each other until the
Toaster came along. That natural marriage made Mac and PC developers take
notice and has JVC, Panasonic, Sony, RCA, NBC, etc, etc, very nervous, if
NAB is any indication (full court press to keep the analog video world
alive with a few 'digital peripherals' and hype to keep the artificially
high prices in the stratosphere). The Amiga/Toaster proved that video
doesn't HAVE TO have costs equal to the national debt to produce quality
stuff. It proved that efficient multi-tasking is possible. Unfortunatley
it also proved that a technically superior product can be killed by
dead-head management and lack of marketting even in its niche market.
The best screwdriver to date bites the dust…. maybe.
BTW, I didn't find the post offensive in any way. It was well reasoned. I
just think your main reason for disappointment is that the Amiga seems to
have, by definition, tailored itself more to Multi-Media/Video even from
the time when MM was not yet a coined buzz word. It is only recently with
the later versions of PageStream that it could compete in DTP with low end
to moderate publishing tasks, and not the level of publishing tools you
need.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne,
You are absolutely right. It is incredible, though isn't it that even in the
niche that Amiga excelled in (video), CBM couldn't define the machine, and
couldn't market it. (Actually the hind sight that we now have shows us that at
the top levels of the company, no one _wanted_ any thing other than a quick,
cheap way to make a buck. There was no loyalty to the product from anyone but
the consumer).
Rich
I'm actually with you all the way here, in regards to the feasibility of a
platform being related directly to its market support. But I have to take
exception at your sniffing at the Amiga's ability to knock around 18 bit
images. While you're absolutely correct in that it doesn't make the grade for
dealing with print quality images (i.e., sizes from 40 to 100 megs) it's great
at pumping out video without a single frame editor. While it's nothing for a
big business to throw down 10 grand on a single frame editing suite, it is a
significant expense for a small business, and the Amiga is still the most cost
effective solution for that market area (that used to be me!).
Anything that can be done on an Amiga can be done on a decked out PC/Mac what
have you. It can just be done 10 times cheaper and faster (at the equipment
you get at that price level.) Of course, I don't personally believe that
anything interesting ever came of the small business video niche, so I don't
particularly lament the passing of the Amiga with that technology. I frankly
don't care if SeaQuest has to toss out 40 grand more to get those great effects
for that cheesy show. Now that Amiga has paved the way, you can get everything
you want on the other platforms.
Of course, we're left with the question of who's going to pave the way in the
future? 🙂
-R
Rusty,
You're right. But the Amiga did not pave the way for inexpensive video. NewTek
did with it's Toaster. The A2000 was never anything more than a co-processor
unit for the Toaster.
Rich
Rich,
Sorry, I disagree with you on that point. According to an interview on
"Computer Chronicles" Paul Montgomery said that the affordability of the Video
Toaster is due significantly in part to the Amiga platform. If you were
correct, there would be a Video Toaster on the PC and Mac by now. Well, maybe.
;-}
Regards,
John Chang
John,
OK. The synergy is there. The Amiga _did_ allow the present Toaster to come
into existence. I don't deny the superiority of the Amiga at all for video.
Rich
Thanks! Hey, when you're hungry any old bone will do <g>. I think that's
as much as we'll get out of Rich for now <bg>.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Rich,
Sorry you feel so bitter towards the technology. Certainly the Amiga has many
capabilities, but maybe electronic pre-press and DTP is not one of its strong
points. If you take a look at it from another point-of-view, we find the Amiga
to be the best multimedia delivery platform on the market. Even at today's
inflated prices for the remaining supply of AGA based machines, it is still a
less expensive solution.
We have several major corporate customers who are purchasing our Amiga based
InfoChannel turnkey systems. They are well aware of the Commdore situation,
but despite that fact, they are forging ahead with our systems, because they
know it is an elegant solution that is not available on any other platform.
Will the Amiga survive as a general purpose personal computer? I don't know.
Will the technology find a niche market and succeed? I believe so.
Regards,
John Chang
Technical Support Manager
Scala, Inc.
John,
Good luck, and my most sincere hope that you endeavor succeeds. But, I have
said it already, and I'll repeat it – any business decision based on future
availablity of this machine is risky beyond excuse. Inexpensive multimedia?
Take a look at the new Mac 630. The base machine is $1200. The video
implementation is excellent. Expandability is excellent – it can become a Power
PC for about $700. All of Apple's support is behind it (while nothing is
certain in this world, I'd rather have Apple's support than CBM's) It is a fast
machine that can compete in the business environment by any criterion. And it
is _affordable_. Authoring software is plentiful. Like everything eles for Mac,
programs are polished, professional, and productive. Dealers can't fill orders
fast enough.
We just bought two. I am _not_ touting Apple because I am a fan of Apple, Inc.
Ia am _not_. But i know how productive these machines are. And I know that I
can rely on an established, main stream environment to support my needs.
Rich
Rich,
I agree that the the Macintosh is an excellent general purpose computer and
that the prices have come down dramatically, I still believe that the Amiga
still wins by sheer performance. I have yet to find an application that
performs as well as our software on the Macintosh.
There is a lot of hope for the PowerPC, however, I will hold judgement until I
see a native pre-emptive multitasking OS running on it. Right now, the
emulation is impressive and the few PowerPC adapted software performs well on
our PowerPC 6100AV.
Indeed, we are working on a PC version of our Scala MultiMedia and InfoChannel
products. It is prudent that we do so. However, if the Amiga succeeds, we
have improved our marketability by notable margin.
Regards,
John Chang
Technical Support Manager
Scala, Inc.
John,
As I said before I _do_ wish you the best. I am really not well informed in the
video arena. I have managed to just ignore it. I hope that 'multimedia' just
goes away! 8)
I just can't read anything on a computer screen. I _must_ print out anything
that I am designing before I can really get a feel for it. I am hopeless when
it comes to help screens, etc. I have just got to have the info on the printed
page before my brain can absorb it. I don't know if its a kind of 'dyslexia' or
what.
Rich
Some things are still better done with a crayon than a computer. When we
recently moved to a new office building, I was told to lose my 3' x 4'
whiteboard. Despite all of the graphics packages and shrink wrap project
managers we own, I still find my whiteboard faster, better, and easier for
designing systems, tracking projects, etc. Harry M.
Harry,
>I still find my whiteboard faster, better, and easier for designing systems,
tracking projects, etc.
Tell me about it. We have about a dozen here in this office!
Regards,
John Chang
Technical Support Manager
Scala, Inc.
I dare you to find ANY office with any amount of productivity that doesn't
have either boards or flipchart pads. Until the advent of the 30" x 50"
multi-megapixel flat display with the PRINT button on the side, that is
🙂 The paperless office, indeed, and they balk at buying anything bigger
than a 15" monitor. Would you believe some top-level new guy was looking
into standardizing on monochrome monitors? Figured he could save the firm
a bundle. It's enough to make you puke … oops, sorry …
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Hey, Eulogio, I saw a board similar to that. Was the size of a small
scool chalkboard, used dry erase markers, and had a button marked "print".
When you hit the button, a scanner arm traveled the entire length of the
board and a little printer on the side would give you a hard copy.
Wickedest thing I ever saw a chalkboard do.
–IBM compatable technician by day, Amiga madman by night–
Rick Green, Mobile, Al
Harry,
We still do _some_ mechanical paste-up. Not much any more, but when its faster,
we still short artwork on the camera, rather than the imagesetter . . . er,
that is _shoot_ artwork on the camera.
Rich
Rich,
Face it. Multimedia is here to stay. Now, it may take other forms or become
just another method of communication in the future. Just get used to it. ;-}
Hmm, I have the same problem when reading on screen. Its only that I have
printed that I find more mistakes. I hate doing that, especially since it
saves more trees.
Regards,
John Chang
Technical Support Manager
Scala, Inc.
John,
Yup – it's only when you print it out that you find the mistakes. More forests
have been mowed down since the advent of the desktop computer than before. And
the trend will continue, not reverse. Because the computer makes it easier to
produce copy of one kind or another than it ever was before. And then it's
inevitible – everything gets output to hard copy. All the rough drafts. All the
endless tiny changes.
Rich
You guys need new glasses <g>. What we really need is a decent, cheap 25"
monitor at 1600 x 1280 🙂
Actually, my current project is a desktop for tax auditors to do all their
work on – dozens of workpapers in Lotus 1-2-3 and Amipuke (plus others)
which are cross referenced and constantly browsed – the electronic
fileroom. For the pilot, we plan to have several 15" stations and two 21"
worstations. We plan to make the big wigs that come to check it out use a
15" monitor NEXT to one of the 21" ones <g>.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
I've always said: "I'll accept the desktop metaphor when you get me a
monitor the size of my desktop…"
Strange.. I find that if I have something printed out, I lose it before I ever
get around to reading it. If it's in machine-readable form, I read it, and keep
it, and reread it when necessary. I find that the only time I ever print
anything out any more is when I need to give it to someone else, and they don't
have a computer.
-larry
Rich, have you tried some of the high-performance SCSI-II controllers?
Have you tried a Warp 040 with fast SCSI-2 and 128MB memory on board? The
fact is, your old 2000 can be upgraded to kick a 4000's butt, as well as
many clone's. Try that with a 286 clone, which is at the level of the
base 2000.
Rich, I respect your situation but think your vision is just as skewed as
ours, in the other direction <g>.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
There is one sure thing about computers – there is always a newer, faster, more
powerful one waiting around the corner to soak up all of our extra money.
We'll wait and see what happens with the Amiga. I still think that, given an
opportunity to be developed and sold by someone who wanted it to succeed, it
can succeed. There are still a number of ways in which it has real advantages
so far as the OS and hardware are concerned. It lacks good software in some
areas…….so we won't argue, we'll just wait and hope.
I enjoy my little Toshiba subnotebook computer and the genealogy software it
runs, but I really feel the limitations of the operating system and resent the
size of the programs and the tremendous amount of hard disk space and memory
they require. But it is wonderful to be able to take my computer with me
knowing that it weighs only four pounds, and can even fit into a large ladies'
purse if I don't want to use its dedicated carrier.
It's great to hear that things have gone so well for you on Maui. I had often
wondered, and hoped you'd drop by to let us know. Congratulations on your
success there.
Betty
Betty,
Thank you very much for your kind thoughts. I certainly hope that the
negativism I have voiced re the Amiga situation has offended no one here. No
one wanted this machine to succeed more than I. My entire graphics arts
department was based on two networked Amigas for over a year. But the situation
succeeded because of a hurculean effort by my staff to make due with the
programs on which we relied. It should not be that way. These machines should
make our tasks easier. I believe that, unfortunately, there is no one in a
position to further the development and manufacture of these machines who
_wants_ the Amiga to succeed. There is no real reason for there to be, except a
love affair with this computer – and that's silly. I have a customer who uses
Pagestream on an Atari, and still occaisionally gives me files for output
(hmmm, but none in the last 6 months). He continues to assert that significant
development is going to occur for that machine, too. Amiga, Atari, OS9, CP/M.
All history. We all may remain as emotionally attached as we wish, but it
really is necessary to face reality, and avoid feeling like we have betrayed
some trust in admitting these things.
I'm not sure what I'll do with my (very) vintage A1000, or my now useless
A2000/1.3 ROM machine. Wonder how long my 3000 will last. Probably a very long
time. The only real use I'll have for it is to run an old Epson flatbed scanner
and WP. Remember Amiga WP? Remember when messag message traffic on this forum
topped all other forums?
8)
Rich
How sad that the wonderful Amiga OS should have fallen so low! I miss it every
time I have to use this laptop. I really miss the ease of the Amiga. What a
really sad OS we have to put up with in order to get the good software
available for the system. How long will the business world put up with the
limitations of MSDOS?
Betty,
The business world will put up with the limitations of MSDOS as long as
Microsoft demands it. But that _will_ end with Windows 4 (Chicago). I hope that
OS/2 can make _some_ headway until then. But it pro probably won't. Amazing,
one company has a brilliant operating system (Amiga) and can't market it
because it really does not care about its place in the universe or its
contibution to computing – Another company has a brilliant operating system,
cares feverishly about its place in the universe and about its contribution to
computing and still can't market OS/2.
Betty, if you hate using your msdos laptop, _please_ take a look at the latest
Mac Power books. Everything is _very_ easy to use, and with the advent true
pre-emptive multitasking, will be a _joy_ to use.
I find the polish and sophistication of the Mac OS so pleasing. And I can get
into the innards of the OS just as much as I want. One of the things that
turned me away from the Mac, at first, and toward the Amiga was the openness of
the Amiga vs the philosphy of the Mac that the user was not _allowed_ into the
workings of the machine.
All that is changed now. There are utilities on every level. There are
developer suites of great elegance. The foresight that went into the Mac
development has shown its promise. The Elitist air that seemed to permeate all
things Mac has in my opinion mostly gone away.
Rich
"Amazing, one company has a brilliant operating system (Amiga) and can't
market it because it really does not care about its place in the universe"
Ah, I'd disagree with that. Many people at Commodore cared about the
Amiga. It was the people at the top that didn't.
Steve,
I was referring _only_ to the _person_ at the top. I will always have the
highest respect for the engineering people. How they were able to carry on in
the corporate atmosphere in which they worked is beyond me.
Rich
Rich,
The problem is that I have genealogy software that runs ONLY on MSDOS. And I
cannot find similar software for any other system – not even for Windows.
Neither program can run under OS/2 (if I'm to believe the manuals….haven't
tried it.) So I'm stuck with MSDOS. I don't think the Mac Powerbooks would
help me much, since they won't run the software that forced me to get an MSDOS
machine in the first place. I love the size and utility of my little
Toshiba…..just don't like MSDOS. I'll be delighted to see it replaced with
something more modern.
Betty
Ok. Sounds like you'll have to stay with the Toshiba. I hope that you can use
Chicago when it becomes available. But it will probably be disk and memory
demanding.
Rich
I'll stay with the Toshiba I have right now for as long as possible. Whether it
will run Chicago, I don't know. It's running Windows for Workgroups right now.
PMJI Betty, but just try what Chicago wants to be. (but will not be)
A smiling Mac.
Our Amiga is much closer. And far ahead somehow.
And you can run MSDOS (if needed) as well.
Rafa <Motorola Inside>
…via AutoPilot 1.72 from Berlin
Rafael,
From the time I began using computers, I've used those from Commodore, and I've
loved them all……..but I never had a great choice of software for them. I
think that if I am forced to give up the computers I really like, I'll opt for
the ones with the software choice next time, even though I don't care all that
much for the system that runs the software. However, I have not yet given up
hope that the Amiga will rise from the ashes or something like that.
Rich,
Try also very CPU demanding as well. From industry reports and speculation by
the press, Chicago is going to be very feature rich and easier to use, but may
disappoint in the performance department.
Regards,
John Chang
John,
We will always be able to marvel at the Amiga's ability to multitask in 1 meg.
Of course it _does_ lack memory management. Chicago may well require a pentium
level machine.
Rich
Rich,
>Chicago may well require a Pentium level machine.
That's really bad news. That makes it very difficult to engineer an efficient
Pentium based laptop. One, they would have to use the 100 MHz 3.3V Pentium
processor and possibly clock it down (i.e. 75 MHz). At 100 MHz clock speed,
ordinary Nickle-Cadmium or Lithium batteries will be depleted within 5 minutes.
Even with CPU management and other power saving techniques.
There is some promise with newer Lithium-Ion batteries. But there are problems
with low-power output. May not be enough juice to run other parts of the
system (i.e. hard drive, active-matrix LCD display). Wonder if Intel is
working on an SL version of the Pentium that will allow a "suspend" feature.
If the manufacturers can get their Pentium laptops to last at least 2 hours
with CPU and power saving techniques, that would be bareable. All I know, is
that they are going to be very expensive initially.
Regards,
John Chang
Technical Support Manager
Scala, Inc.
John,
I don't know if Chicago will really require a Pentium. I was just wondering.
Some people may feel that anything slower is unacceptable. And once a newer,
faster chip is introduced, it _always_ migrates down- ward into systems that
were once thought unable to accept such technology.
Laptops _will_ have Pentium or Power PC performance one day, and then we will
regard anything less as quaint. "Remember when . . .?"
Rich
That's OK, John, they'll all include an automotive cigarette lighter
outlet adapter, and a set of jumper cables 🙂
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
OK, here it is, reprinted without permission from Newsweek,
The Top 10 Things People Think the 95 in Windows 95 Really Stands For:
10. The number of floppies it will ship on.
9. The percentage of people that will have to upgrade their hardware.
8. The number of megabytes of hard-disk space required.
7. The number of pages in the "Easy Install" version of the manual.
6. The percentage of existing programs that won't run in the new OS.
5. The number of minutes to install.
4. The number of calls to tech support before you can get it to run.
3. The number of people who will actually PAY for the upgrade.
2. The number of MHz required for the OS to run.
1. The year it was DUE to ship.
*I*just*love*this*stuff* <g>.
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Sientate a la puerta de tu casa y veras pasar el cadaver de tu enemigo.
Proverbio arabe.
Regards
Rafa <Motorola Inside>
…via AutoPilot 1.72 from Berlin
Betty,
Any MSDOS program can be coerced into running under OS/2 (well almost).
And OS/2 sure feels and works alot more like AmigaOS than Windoze. The
latest Warp sounds like it'll be even more like Amy.
Robb
OS/2 is just as invisible (if not more so) to the comouter community than
is/was Amigados.
Is this likely to change, given the track record of said comunity's slavish
devotion to mediocrity as evidenced by the high volume sales of Windows, and
before that, MsDos?
-larry
Larry,
OS/2 IS just as invisible. You are absolutely right. It IS the AmigaDOS of the
IBM clone ,er, MSDOS, er, Windows (ugh) world. It is _far_ superior to Windows,
and much more palatable than NT. Although NT aint chopped liver. It is mature,
stable, and (I hate to say this about operating systems) fun to use. NT is
_not_ fun to use, and Windows is just abominable. I agree with you. It's funny
to think of IBM as the little guy in all of this, but they are. OS/2 has _less_
recognition now relative to the computer world (Windows crowd) than Amiga DOS
had relative to the existing computer world when it came out. What the heck is
wrong with people?
My prediction? There will be an eventual merging of the Mac OS (several
versions hence) and OS/2 (several versions hence). over the next several
version upgrades of these OSs, the microkernal of these two systems will become
similar, the IBM PowerPC will fully embrace the MAC OS, and Apple will be in
trouble. The next version of the IBM PowerPC can do this right now.
Rich
Rich,
what is wrong with people? Simple indifference. The machine came with
Windows, all the software that the corporation bought, or was preinstalled
on a consumer machine, depends on Windows, so why shuck out the extra cash
for OS/2? For that to happen, you'd need to have significant benefits to
the average consumer or business users that overcomes the cost of the
package. Having looked at the cost of OS/2, I can't see that, especially
when MicroSloth comes up with an equivalent a few months later that only
carries an upgrade cost, not the full cost of the initial buy.
Get a super-app that only runs on OS/2 and things might change,
although only in a limited way, i.e. those users that need the app will
add OS/2. Without significantly increased utility, or to put it in
current economic terms, enough reward to overcome the indifference of the
consumer, you won't see a change.
As for the eventual merger of the OS's, it may happen sooner than you
think. IBM and Apple have become quite close of late and may become much
closer in the near future. They are taking a bath due to the
Intel/MicroSloth alliance. Simple survival dictates a merger of
activities for both parties. However, I don't think it will work in the
end. The corporate cultures are quite dissimiliar. Think of mixing oil
and water and you come close.
Brian,
IBM and Apple corporate cultures are actually becoming quite similar. I agree,
simple survival dictates the merger of both. And I think tha that will happen,
to the detriment of Apple. I think the Mac OS will become a division of IBM to
serve the graphics arts world (which by the way is _huge_ and still really
untapped by even Apple). OS/2 (or whatever) will acquire the rest of the
attributes of the Mac user interface, which, aside fromt NeXT, is the best user
interface on the planet.
I follow your points re corporations not switching to OS/2, but the cost is
really not the issue. OS/2 can be had for about the same as a Windows upgrade.
And right now, OS/2 runs Windows better than Windows itself!
What I really can't understand is IBM's not getting developer tools into the
hands of everyone they could think of – and for free. Not only have OS/2 tools
been hard to come by – they they have been almost twice as expensive as
Microsoft's.
Rich
Rich, that was one of IBM's biggest blunders with OS/2. They only
recently made a decent C++ development environment available. Probably
too late for many people.
Oh, well, the beat goes on ,,,
DJ
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …
Larry, I think OS/2, for all of its plusses and minuses, is a thousand times
more visible than the Amiga was in the last three years.
-R
Well, it may well be more visible than the Amiga has been, but it is WAY down
there in the noise, right along with it.
-larry
Larry,
I agree with you on that one. And what's more, OS2 is no where near as
good as the Amiga O.S. They are getting a version of CIM. Nevertheless,
the member of the OS2 forums are grumbling about under recognition. No
developers and this one ain't going anywhere.
I almost wish the Bahamian court would just sell off the pieces and
declare the Amiga technology public domain. That way, anybody interested
in the technology could either start making them for themselves or buy
from someone who was making them.
-Richard
I cannot believe that IBM is letting this window of opportunity slip by while
Microsloth plods along to yet another kludged attempt at a real OS.
-larry
That's for sure … OK, a riddle:
What's more visible than a corpse in casket 6 feet under, and what isn't?
DJ
(no, that's my signature, not the answer, dummy!)
On AP from Queens, the thrill and excitement of the Big Apple
Where a little paranoia keeps you healthy and sane …