#Flyer Reports . . .
59 messages in this thread
The silence about the Flyer in the past few weeks has been deafening.
Are their any end-users who have had the opportunity for extensive testing or
use of the beta flyers in the field?
I'm beginning to get the impression that all is not well regarding the Flyer.
End-user comments only, please.
Jerry
I have been waiting for a beta version which we have been told at least 3 times
its coming "next week". The last issue apparently was the "overheating" problem
which we were told that have been now fixed. What gets me is their lack of
providing updated information on what is going on. Its much better in my view
to tell people that you are delayed than to not tell them.
That doesn't mean I am not excited about getting one. Just frustrated. When we
get our hands on it, and run it through some paces, I shall report back. I do
hope others also will and Flyer conversation will become a regular feature of t
his fo rum- as oppossed to waiting for the Flyer conversation
Michael
This is somewhat of an update for the release date of the flyer: due to some
additional programing of toasterpaint and lightwave and and odds and ends with
the flyer a 3.9 version will be shipping on Marc h 1 st. The 3.9 will be fully
functional and have most of the features expected for 4.0
later TB
Tony, is the delay of the Flyer till March hearsay, or official (are you
asssociated with Newtek?). If you are on the Newtek team: why isnt Newtek
considering shipping just the Flyer now, and then ship TP and LW whenever they
finally become qualified? Is it because the Flyer "odds and ends" are
non-trivial?
Nick
Tony,
I don't know where you are getting your information, but my information,
from my sales reps at NewTek is that Flyer Rev .9 will begin shipping by
the end of December (After all they need something to celebrate at their
New Year's Eve party :-).
-John
Tony,
I think you somehow got your information from a confused source. Perhaps the
march ship date is for the 4.0 upgrade. Flyers will be shipping (all pre-order
units) by end of December. This is according to a personal discussion I had
last week with Tim Jennison.
Frank
"Perhaps the march ship date is for the 4.0 upgrade. Flyers will be shipping
(all pre-order units) by end of December."
Frank:
I thought the VT 4.0 software was an absolute must-have in conjunction with
the Flyer? Isn't the software nothing less than the Flyer's front-end?
Jerry
Jerry,
As I understand it, the new paint/CG software that will ship with the Flyer is
the core of the new 4.0 upgrade package that people WITHOUT Flyers will want to
purchase when it becomes available. However, there is at least a few features
exclusive to the Flyer version that won't make it into the 4.0 upgrade.
Sequential post processing from within the paint program, and direct renderring
of 3-D sequences from within Lightwave, and some DVE moves. In any event, the
software and interface for both versions will share many features, but not be
identical.
Frank
Thanks, Frank. It still makes me kind of leery to see so little in the way
of comments recently about the Flyer.
Jerry
Jerry,
Although I share your concern about the lack of Flyer information, it's likely
that you will be seeing much more info in the next couple of weeks as units
ship with the latest software to end users. Before you know it, the jury will
be in on whether or not it meets the hype that has preceeded it.
Frank
"Before you know it, the jury will be in on whether or not it meets the hype
that has preceeded it."
That's the bottomline I'm looking for, Frank. It's just the sudden silence
that I found disturbing.
Jerry
J:
Yea, ish… The 4.0 software is 60+ disks of goodies. The final release
will be compleat, but the earlyer version may include LightWave 3.9 or CG
3.9 (just examples). The Switcher, as it has been known in the past, would
still run the flyer.
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
"The 4.0 software is 60+ disks of goodies."
Only 60? <G> Do you know if there will be a CD-ROM version?
Jerry
Tony:
Were you at the VTU Expo? and were you in a different meeting than I
was? all of your Info is corect exept the date. Acording to Tim Jenison.
He expects the final version to ship by end of January, and the 3.9
version to ship by the first. I will agree that I have doubts I will see
any thing that quikly though.
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
I wonder how NewTek will react if pre-orderers ask to defer accepting
delivery of Flyer's until there are actual end-user reports on its real worth?
Personally I'm getting the impression that NewTek is going to put people into
a "take it or leave it" position saying that if you don't accept delivery
immediately, you lose your pre-introduction discount.
What concerns me is that no one has actually seen a production Flyer – and I
haven't read a single unqualifiedly positive comment about the Flyer.
Everything I've read or heard has had some reservations about something or
other not being finished (except from dealers and some Toaster partisans who
have their own obvious axes to grind).
For the amount of money that has to go into a Flyer system, I sure don't want
to be paying for the privilege of being a beta-tester.
Jerry
I've just returned from the VTU expo and perhaps I can ease some of your fears.
They had many flyers up and running and they were performing flawlessly. It
wasn't just a sit back and watch situation, you could go up to the Flyer and
use it yourself and it took about ten seconds to learn. The keynote speech by
Tim Jenison said that the .9 version is being released now and the full 4.o
will be released in a few weeks. Everyone, whether or not they own a Flyer,
will all receive the same software for the upgrade to 4.0. The only thing you
can't do without the Flyer is full motion video. You can actually set up a
series of Framestores in a series or a credit sequence just within Toaster 4.0.
It really is great. The most interesting thing that was said by Tim Jenison,
and I'm sure you'll start hearing about it soon, is that the Flyer is a totally
self contained unit and it only recieves power from it's host computer. In
other words, although he stopped short of the official announcement, there will
be PC, Mac and SGI Flyers down the road. It was a great show and it's
attendance was encouraging for the continued long life of the Toaster.
Andrew, are you certain about the current release "(not being able) to do full
motion video"? The Flyer would be nothing without that capability.
Also, the comment about "…it only receives power from it's host computer…".
Unless Newtek has decided to put a cpu etc on the Flyer board, it also has to
depend on the host, and the loaded control software, for general control
(albeit, with all the high speed video processing being done by the Flyer's own
processors)….and with the tight interaction between the Flyer and Toaster,
the Flyer also depends on the host to properly manage the Toaster card. So, one
interpretation of your comments is that, very soon, one would be able to take
their Flyer card out of their Amiga, slip it into a PC, buy the requisite PC
software to control the Flyer, buy a cable to hook the PC to the Toaster in the
Amiga, and run.
Another interpretation is that the "PC, MAC Flyers" will be self
contained….ie, Newtek is about to announce new Toaster cards for these two
platforms.
Is this the gist of what was said at the expo?
Nick
Let's kill any rumours now, shall we?
NewTek execs have stated many times over that there will not be a Video
Toaster card for the PC or Mac. What makes the Toaster perform its magic
is not only on the card itself, but is reliant on the special hardware
features of the Amiga itself. The only way you might get a Toaster card
for an Amiga or Mac, would be to essentially have the guts of the Amiga on
the same Toaster card. And that is currently not feasible.
NewTek had produced a networking solution for Macs to be able to control
the Toaster(Amiga) remotely and transfer data directly, but that's been
it, as far as far as NewTek's plans for running a Toaster on other
platforms goes. Most PC users want the Toaster for the LightWave 3D
software anyhow, which is one thing that NewTek has been able to port
over.
for UK readers, NewTek HAS hinted that the next hardware upgrade of the
Toaster card could be PAL capable. The european market is where the
largest Amiga market is anyhow.
So expect Toaster NTSC and PAL cards for the future, and no Toaster PC or
MAC.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Internet: viking@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Vance, if an earlier thread from a VTU Expo attendee who says he heard Jenison
to clearly imply that "… there will be PC, Mac and SGI Flyers down the
road…" is corroborated by other Expo attendees, then this is not the start of
just another rumor, but rather some very significant information. And since the
Flyer and Toaster functions are so intimately intertwined, it is only
straightforward business logic to then take the next step: reconfigure the
Toaster for those other platforms as well.
Your assertion that "…NewTek execs have stated many times over that there
will not be a VideoToaster card for the PC or Mac…" may be historically
accurate. But then George Bush is known to have firmly promised that there
would be no new taxes. Situations can change.
Regarding the old paradigms that it is "impossible/impractical/unfeasible" to
do without those wonderful special Amiga chips, or to duplicate their
function…..well, people who hold on to such "it is impossible" paradigms have
rarely been proven to be right.
If independent teams of clever engineers can clone the Intel X86 architecture
without infringing on Intel patents, then another team of equally clever
engineers can clone the function of whatever chips Newtek needs to make it's
Toaster work on any platform of their choosing. And if the Toaster card cant
physically accomodate this stuff, put it on another one. Nowhere is it written
that the Toaster has to stay stuck to it's present card budget. And if Newtek
was my business, that is exactly what I would be doing.
Regards……………Nick
"If independent teams of clever engineers can clone the Intel X86 architecture
without infringing on Intel patents, then another team of equally clever
engineers can clone the function of whatever chips Newtek needs to make it's
Toaster work on any platform of their choosing. And if the Toaster card cant
physically accomodate this stuff, put it on another one. Nowhere is it written
that the Toaster has to stay stuck to it's present card budget. And if Newtek
was my business, that is exactly what I would be doing."
Extremely cogent reasoning, Nicholas. I don't know much about the
architecture of the Video Toaster itself, but your comments about the Flyer are
a great awakening: there would seem to be little reason why the Flyer (perhaps
with augmentation) could not simply substitute for the chipsets of the Amiga.
That would certainly open the possibilities to at least a PC based Video
Toaster/Flyer setup.
Interesting and thought provoking thinking, Nicholas.
Jerry
How about this for a nutty idea – I am not a tekkie so maybe I can be forgiven.
Newtek bundles their flyer with a toaster card and amiga CPU/RAM if needed and
makes up some hardware/software hooks that let it run off a PC. The software
enables total use and access of any files on the PC and with some easy
pushbuttons you can convert outputs from the newtek contraption into PC usable
files. Now, I figure if you add up the costs, you still land up with this
newtekcontraption that is still cheaper than the targa/fast machine
alternatives, and probably can do a whole lot more tricks. With the right
marketing, it might sell volumes and drive the price down still further.
Michael
"and drive the price down still further"
Like any other technology going up the curve, the prices are going downward,
no matter what the solution. Matrox, Fast and the rest of the other "solutions"
are still overpriced in my opinion, but the pricing has been headed south since
last year as the competition increases.
I can't see any future for NewTek unless they migrate to the PC, the Mac or
both. On the PC side, in particular, there are a slew of companies heading into
this market – and one or two of them are going to come up with blockbuster
products. At that point – given the current Commodore situation – it's bye-bye
NewTek.
I don't think they're going to stand still for that.
The real question in my mind is whether or not existing owners of Amigas and
Video Toasters will simply take it in the neck and be stuck with an essentially
orphaned system because NewTek has gone on to other, more profitable platforms
and doesn't want to put R&D money into a shrinking market segment. Apple, for
instance, is famous for abandoning owners of its high-end machines (which may
in part account for their continually shrinking market share).
What's the old saw? Time will tell.
Jerry
Actually, regardless of the Toaster, it's not going to be bye-bye NewTek
anytime soon. LightWave is an industry standard and with it's availability
on the PC and SGI soon, their income will be phenominal.
NewTek started with software and they know how to market, believe it or
not. My advice, in any case, is to wait and see, instead of counting the
days for NewTek to give up on a technically superior personal computer.
Besides, like it or not, the Amiga rights are being bought up by newer and
better people than CBM.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Internet: viking@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
As individual owners can't control the activities of NEW TEK, I guess the real
issue facing us is whether or not to buy more Amiga/NewTEk software/hardware. I
am new to AMIGA having brought a couple of 4000s and a Toaster and Flyer and
warp engine primarily to support a small business (which I hope will grow)
while I run my main management consulting business. I felt the Amiga provided
certain types of presentation capacities that I could not get on the MAC and
certainly not the IBM without major costs. In reflection, I am not sure if I
made the right decision. Perhaps, MAC would be better. On the other hand, I
still think that the Amiga solution is likely to be cost effective for a while.
And, for those already with equipment, it becomes a series of cost/benefit/risk
incremental decisions. If you already have a Toaster set up, the addition of a
Flyer is really inexpensive. The hard drives are a lot more expensive and you
can use them in any NLE set up. In the worse case scenario of total,
unsupported orphanage (except for basic service), you still should get a couple
of years use out of the Flyer by which time, the prices of the next wave of
superior IBM/MAC products would have dropped by a greater price than the cost
of the FLyer.And you should still be able to use the Flyer.
Anyways, thats my rationalization..
Michael
Well, Jenison was interviewed in a current UK Amiga mag issue stating that
there will never be a PC or Mac Toaster. So, sorry. Argue about Jenison's
quotes with Jenison.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Internet: viking@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Vance:
Who said anything about a Toaster? Who said anything about a Mac?
Jenisons statments were about the Flyer. Now I agree at first that a Flyer
with out a Toaster is a little useless, untill you think of what it
actualy is. A Tapless Tape deck! Goodbye VCR, Goodbye Laser Disk, Goodbye
VideoTape. If all the thing needs is a Power suply the posibilities are
really staggering…
Brad Hayes
Hayes Visual Communication
Yes, one of the users here commented on what he found out about the Flyer.
Initially, it is an add-on card for the Toasterized-Amiga, but that it
will be coming out in its own platform-independant mode. So, my earlier
argument about things not being used on other platoforms only holds for
the Toaster.
I must say that I am glad they are initially producing Flyer cards for
people who want them inside their Amiga-Toasters. It saves desk space for
one thing (or rack space).
Yup, good riddance to videotape for editing. NLE is an amazing concept.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Internet: viking@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
>> Andrew, are you certain about the current release "(not being able) to
>> do full motion video"? The Flyer would be nothing without that
>> capability.
I think he meant that the only thing that Toaster 4.0 couldn't do without
the Flyer is FMV (which makes sense), not the other way around.
– Jim, on AP!
Nick,
I think Andrew was saying that everyone will be getting the same software
with an upgrade to 4.0 — those who do not have a Flyer, will be able to
set up & run "scripts" excluding those that conrol Flyer's ability of full
motion video.
The fact that the Flyer is in it's own box, means that it does not need a
specific platform to run on. Yes it still needs to communicate with the
host computer but that can be any computer. This was the whole idea
behind the Toaster Workstation. Self contained Toaster System being
controlled by a MAC. So what that the workstation was a computer itself,
you could now tie the "Workstation" module to the "Flyer" module and still
run everything from your MAC.
Those visiting Traz have reported more R&D toward this idea of non
computer specific Toaster product. Perhaps some day there will be a real
"plug and go" switcher, but until then the world will have to make due
with buying used Amigas to run their Toasters in. But how long can a
company rely on the used market? This only forces them into R&D for
something other than Amiga. I can see how Andrew came to his conclusion.
Joe Maulucci >>> Accadia BBS – "The Home of MotionCLIPS"
FidoNET & Amiga/IBM Store On-Line call 1-716-882-1774
I'm sorry Nicholas if I didn't make myself clear. Of course full motion video
will be available. What i meant was that current Toaster owners who upgrade to
4.0 next month will be recieving the exact same software as Flyer owners and
that those Toaster only users will still have certain Flyer capabilities
without full motion video. As far as the other comment I was just repeating
what I heard. I'm sure the next VTU will be able to interpret it better.
Thanks, Andrew.
Your comments provide a bit of comfort, but still leave me concerned. Playing
with a system for a few minutes is way different than using it for hours at a
time and becoming the first on your block to discover a previously unknown and
undocumented feature. <G>
What you have to say is definitely encouraging, but still doesn't address
many others issues, such as actual hard drive space consumption for various
levels of video quality, ease of editing without a timeline, the acceptability
of not being able to create an EDL (which I believe is inherent to the Flyer)
and some other issues that cause me concern.
"The most interesting thing that was said by Tim Jenison, and I'm sure you'll
start hearing about it soon, is that the Flyer is a totally self contained unit
and it only recieves power from it's host computer."
That's a real interesting point. Can a non-Amiga Toaster be far behind? With
all the competition for video cards in the PC and Mac worlds, NewTek (or anyone
else) will have to offer something special in order to cut through all the
advertising clutter. Consider the potential of a NewTek Flyer/Adobe
Premiere/CoSA bundle? Certainly cuts across all the platforms, doesn't it?
Jerry
A colleague of mine just cancelled his beta because he was told that the
production units were going to ship at the end of January and it was costing
him more money to buy a beta than to get a production unit because of how early
he ordered the production unit. He has become completely upset with how you can
never get any information out of New Tek and has cynically concluded that New
Tek never wanted a sincere beta program as he can't understand why you would
need 175 people to beta test it. I have had somebody phoning New Tek at least
once a week for several weeks and have never gotten an answer that turned out
to be accurate. The latest information I heard today from this guy who talked
to New Tek was that they had figured out a software fix to reduce the amount of
data passing through the chip and overheating it. So, I am pretty frustrated.
On the other hand,
On the other hand, most of the reviews that I have heard about the Flyer do
emphasize its high quality video. And my staff person saw a demo in Florida and
he liked the quality and he has a pretty good eye. I think the interface also
is quite nice and easy to use, although I think a time-line metaphor is
fundamentally better than a storyboard, insofar as it can actually incorporate
a storyboard as well.
Also – if one has an Toaster already, the incremental cost of a Flyer is really
substantially less for what appears to be better quality than the alternative,
and I think represents a better incremental cost even if you have an IBM and
are looking to either the Fast Machine or the Targa Boards which I see as the
competition.
Michael
"it was costing him more money to buy a beta than to get a production unit
because of how early he ordered the production unit"
I'm not sure I understaqnd that. Is NewTek charging for the beta units?
Considering them as a forerunner, so to speak, of the production stuff?
"can't understand why you would need 175 people to beta test it"
I can and don't have a problem with the number. The more people who actively
beta test something, the higher the *probability* that you'll iron out most of
the bugs – and keep a lot more people from becoming involuntary beta testers
when they get the so-called production units. But a lot depends on how
seriously the beta testers attack the unit. Most beta testers don't really
stress whatever it is they're testing.
"On the other hand, most of the reviews that I have heard about the Flyer do
emphasize its high quality video"
Personally I've come to discount any of the product "review" editorial that
appears in Video Toaster User. At this point, I feel that they've basically
become a NewTek house organ. For example, I'm sitting here with a Studio 16
that still won't do what it's advertising claimed a year ago – and Video
Toaster hasn't had a word about that or the many other programs, such as
Toaster Toolkit, that were shipped incomplete or so buggy that they were
useless.
I'd rather wait for some reviews and comments who don't have a direct
interest in the success of the Video Toaster market – and except for a squib or
two, there haven't been any – and that bothers me.
"I think the interface also is quite nice and easy to use, although I think a
time-line metaphor is fundamentally better than a storyboard, insofar as it can
actually incorporate a storyboard as well"
Yep. I don't have a whole lot of experience with non-linear video editing,
but the timeline interface strikes me as a lot easier and efficient to use. But
that's kind of a personal quibble I guess, like preferring automatic
transmission to stick shift. Both can get the job done.
"The latest information I heard today from this guy who talked to New Tek was
that they had figured out a software fix to reduce the amount of data passing
through the chip and overheating it"
There's a whole thread on the NewTek BBS about the overheating problem and,
more importantly, on the need for NewTek to cherry pick drives to work with the
Flyer. Their claim is that they're pushing the edge of the envelope. My concern
is that you can push the edge too far. If the drives need to be cherry picked
to begin with, does that also spell the beginning of lots of downtime for
repair when a drive goes slightly out of spec? Personally when I see anyone
making a "we're pushing the edge of technology" claim, I want to put my money
back in my wallet. Like most people who have been in the computer business for
a few years, I've seen a lot of those situations turn into crash 'n burns.
"I think represents a better incremental cost even if you have an IBM and are
looking to either the Fast Machine or the Targa Boards which I see as the
competition"
There's also Raster Ops, SuperMac, Radius, D/Vision (or something like that)
and lots of others. It's obviously a market that lots of people are getting
into and Moore's Law dictates that capacities will double and prices halve
every 18 months. Without any solid factual knowledge about the Flyer's true
performance and capabilities, the thought is growing in my mind that this might
be one of those situations where waiting for the second generation is the wiser
and more cost effective move. (If you've ever bought any Apple products, you
know exactly what I mean. <G>)
The problem for me is that NewTek is essentially asking people to take a
flyer (couldn't resist that one) on untested technology. The independent
reviews and commentary just aren't there. The feedback from real users isn't
there. And I don't see a safety net: what will NewTek's return policy be if
newly delivered Flyer units don't live up to the customer's expectations? To my
knowledge, NewTek hasn't ever even published a real spec sheet on the Flyer.
Everything is by reference in press releases or comments at trade shows and
stuff like that. The claim of D2 quality, of course, is totally subjective,
like "broadcast quality".
With drives and whatnot, the Flyer is not an inexpensive proposition. The
slippage of their software schedule is also bothersome to me – it means that a
Flyer buyer is essentially taking delivery of an incomplete unit.
I don't know. My doubts are growing – but not a word of what I'm saying
should be taken as a slam of any kind against the Flyer for the simple reason
that I've never seen one. Period. And it also seems that no other end-user has
ever had the opportunity to sit and use one for an extended period of time.
Right now, everything about the Flyer is sort of "all in the family" – in the
hands of people who have a lot of reasons not to say anything negative (even is
such existed) because they have an economic interest in the cashflow NewTek
hopes to develop in the near-term.
Just the kind of situation with all the unknowns to make me kind of
uncomfortable. And, of course, it should be remembered that the Flyer could
also be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The problem is a lack of objective information, nothing more, nothing less.
Jerry
Jerry,
Regarding the "cherry picking" of drives by Newtek;
The drives that function properly with the Flyer as of this date are specific
rom firmware versions of readily available off the shelf product. Certain rom
firmware versions can cause problems as the drives reach near full capacity,
others do just fine. The only thing a dealer (or end user) must do to make
certain of full compaitibility is to check the approved list of rom version
numbers prior to installing the Flyer.
Frank
"The only thing a dealer (or end user) must do to make certain of full
compaitibility is to check the approved list of rom version numbers prior to
installing the Flyer."
That's not the gist of what I picked up from the NewTek BBS, Frank. The
poster there – a NewTek employee – went on at length as to why NewTek had to
select the drives for installation.
Perhaps he was just misinformed?
Jerry
PMFJI – At the Newtek dealer meeting in LA last week Newtek announced that
the Flyer came with a special disk formatter for Flyer drives. If the
model and rom version of the drive didn't match the formatters specs, it
would not prepare the drive for Flyer data. I'm still waiting to hear
what the rom versions are, since all dealers have the drive model numbers
now.
Have you heard anything else?
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
The posting I read on the NewTek BBS from one of NewTek's people indicated
that it was NewTek cherry-picking the drives and left me with the impression
that only they would be supplying them. That could be a misunderstanding on my
part. If I remember, I'll copy the posting for here.
One issue that bothers me is that if a drive goes down, you're out of luck on
just slapping in a temporary replacement. The last two drives I sent in for
warranty repair/replacement took more than a month to be returned. I would
prefer that you could use any old fast SCSI-2 drive as a temporary unit if you
had to.
Jerry
Jerry –
Here's a chance to work with a good local dealer, if you have one. We
offer loaners to those under maintenance and will keep backups to be sure
no customer experiences significant downtime, due to drive failure or any
other computer problems.
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
"We offer loaners to those under maintenance and will keep backups to be sure
no customer experiences significant downtime, due to drive failure or any other
computer problems."
That, Sir, is a hallmark of a real professional.
And no, we're not dealing with a dealer of this kind – which is what makes it
a risky venture for us.
Jerry
Jerry,
My source of information regarding the HD rom versions is Tim Jennison ( for
those monitoring this thread, Tim is the President and founder of Newtek). Tim,
Lee Stranahan, and myself discussed this particular matter at length (among
other things) over lunch on December 2nd. They were on their way down to the
VTU expo in So. Cal. They stopped by a few familiar haunts in Sunnyvale. It was
at one of these places we happened to meet up and I offered to buy them lunch.
The discussion covered a wide range of topics, my particular interest however
was the Flyer and believe me, I was very interested in knowing just what type
of drives would be compatible and whatever particular requirements must be met
for complete functionality.
I don't mean to imply that the message on Newtek's BBS is erroneous, it's just
not jiving with information that in my opinion would seem to be irrefutable.
Frank
"My source of information regarding the HD rom versions is Tim Jennison"
Reasonably good source, Frank. <G>
I'll try to remember to post the message from the NewTek BBS regarding this
and we can compare notes.
Jerry
The claim of D2 quality is not, "totally subjective", as you state.
Anyone with technical experience in video can tell you exactly what D2
quality means: Composite video sampled at 4Fsc (4 times the color
sub-carrier frequency) which is about 14mhz, with 8- or sometimes 10-bit
samples. The term boradcast quality has lost meaning at the hends of the
marketers, but there is the RS-170A spec for broadcast-legal video. Maybe
some of your fear and cynicism are clouding your judgement; noone expects
a 100% safety net when they buy cutting-edge technology, they expect a
competitive advantage in return for their risk. Otherwise they'd just now
be considering putting a toaster in their beta-sp suites.
"noone expects a 100% safety net when they buy cutting-edge technology"
Oh, I agree. I'd be happy if the product just met its published
specifications. One problem with the Flyer in my eyes is that no specifications
have been published. Lots of hyperbole, lots of promises – but absolutely
nothing that I've seen that actually lays out the specs in a way by which
NewTek could be held accountable for not meeting them.
That kind of stuff bothers me.
Jerry
And what products, for example, have met your stringent pre-release
specification requirements. When a technical spec like D2 becomes
hyperbole in your book, what kind of info does a product need to come
with?
"And what products, for example, have met your stringent pre-release
specification requirements."
Excuse me? What are you talking about?
To the best of my knowledge, NewTek hasn't published a product specification
for the Flyer. In terms of law, that means NewTek could deliver a piece of junk
and leave the purchaser without legal recourse for recission or refund.
The publication of a product specification is something so common that its
absence attracts attention – as in this case it has. (The product, for
instance, can't be purchased by the government if no product specification has
been published.)
My concern is that I have been unable to find a published NewTek product
specification for the Flyer. From a legal standpoint, that is document which
defines for the prospective purchaser what it is that they are buying.
Statements in advertising, press releases and so on, are largely considered
to be "puffery" and do not bind the utterer.
If you think it's outrageous to ask for something as simple and basic as a
product specification, that's fine . . . for you. If you prefer to deal without
that legal safeguard, that's fine . . . for you.
But I prefer situations where I know I can protect my rights, if the occasion
warrants, and that's fine for me.
Jerry
It's not a product yet
Well then you must be glad you haven't staked out any $$$ for such a
treacherously nebulous almost-product, and you didn't answer my question
about what products you do have specifications for.
"Well then you must be glad you haven't staked out any $$$ for such a
treacherously nebulous almost-product, and you didn't answer my question about
what products you do have specifications for."
It seems you have a penchant for putting words in people's mouths – and
making up your own take on reality.
I indeed have a $300 deposit on a NewTek Flyer.
In regard to specifications, I don't think you understood the answer: take a
look at the manual for just about any signigicant product you own and you'll
find a page or more given over to specifications.
Call just about any manufacturer and ask for a specification sheet and you'll
get one, either separately or as part of the advertising.
I don't know what your point is – and it's obvious that you don't understand
mine.
If you're comfortable with buying pig-in-a-poke products without legal
recourse, that's fine with me. I'm not – and I see no reason why this should be
upsetting to you.
Jerry
PMFJI – Your dealer should have a significant list of the Flyer specs.
They were prepared in conjunction with a list called "Frequently Asked
Questions about the Flyer". Do give him a call.
Hank
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
"Your dealer should have a significant list of the Flyer specs.
They were prepared in conjunction with a list called "Frequently Asked
Questions about the Flyer"
Hank:
Downloading this list from the NewTek BBS is precisely what sparked my
concerns! It raised more questions in my mind than it answered. Some of the
"answers" weren't answers at all.
Jerry
I'll review it and see what you mean – talk to you tonight.
Hank
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
Dear Michael,
I saw the Flyer at the Expo, and was fairly impressed with its quality
output. Do you happen to know how it compares with Broadcast Elite, which
digitizes from a component signal? Also, it is useful to know that the
Flyer will not be able to handle video-on-video layering, at least in this
initial release, and the audio editing is an admittedly weak link. Still,
I think I'd have to say that Tim Jennison's claims of a new "revolution"
are well-founded, and boy, do I wish I had stock in that Kansas company.
Sean Hannon
Ad Rats – Stamford, CT
I don't know what a Broadcast Elite is so I can't answer that question.
From what I can gather from the specs, the Flyer will have three areas where
improvements would be desirable.
1. Time-line. I like the storyboard interface but a time-line includes that and
is one less click to get at certain information. Undoubtedly people will get
some interfaces.
2. Video on video. However, if D2 is truly lossless, I can see a solution that
would probably involve 2 flyers and some software to overcome that problem.
3. Pixellization for certain special effects. This is what bugs me the most and
it is an issue of theToaster more than the Flyer. I sure wish this could be
improved. Maybe the Flyer could improve it as some form of fast rendering
strategy for certain special effects.
4. Audio. I thought it was supposed to be decent. If you added some audio
software it should be great.
Anyways, I look forward to getting the toy to play with over the next couple of
weeks.
Michael
Michael,
In regards to the Pixellization on the FX, thats a toaster problem, not
flyer. The Toaster cost/performance ratio is due to the limitations in
its DVE engine. Alladin on the PC has much nicer DVE, but at a price!
The solution may be programs like Hollywood FX as advertised in VTU. They
use Lightwave to do preset and somewhat customised DVE FX that are as
good as ADO's and K-scopes. The only thing is the rendering time. Since
its usually texture mapped polygons, it shouldn't be so bad.
Incidently, anyone remotley aware of LW and who is currently looking to
own a Flyer should really investigate this route. You could possibly
create some really nice and unique transitions and FX w/ these
combination. Sky's the limit I guess!!
CyberCruising at ya from Brooklyn, NY on Autopilot,
—Archie
Arthur,
You're, of course, right that the pixelization is due to the toaster and not
the flyer.
We have been fooling around with Hollywood FX and, for the effects, it
provides, its pretty decent. I think they are going to give more user control
in future editions to building your own effects. In our initial explorations
the rendering times were not atrocious. At one point I was interested in the
feral effects board as a solution, but a few people in this forum highly
advised against it.
Happy holidays,
Michael
PMFJI –
Could you tell me the objections voiced against the Feral Effect board.
The demo I saw at VTU Expo certainly showed clean compression.
Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Hank
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.
Henry,
>>Could you tell me the objections voiced against the Feral Effect board.
The demo I saw at VTU Expo certainly showed clean compression.
Any input would be appreciated.
I gave my paper copy of the response to my staff person who is off for a few
days. When he gets back, I will get the material and extract the essence. In
the meantime, maybe the author or others will respond.
Michael
Hank, We have sent both we got back to the company because you could not make
the video in the box go all the way off-screen, it's smalllest size was one
pixel when you resized it to get the "growing box" effect, the compression is
good but if you are only using it for over-the-shoulder all the time I would
advise against it. They say they have new software and how it is so much better
but…I'll stick to using LW for those effects and I have yet to have to use an
o-t-s shot. Not a regret to having sent it back but if you want to buy a used
one I can give you the number of our dealer (he has four that have been
returned for basically the same reason) and I'm sure you can get a decent price
because he can't unload them. 🙂
jmb
Thanks for the input. I seem to remember Feral explaining some changes
they made before they exhibited at the VTU Expo. Maybe that was an effort
to correct the problem.
I would like to talk to the dealer, so if you could give me his
name/number that would be helpful.
Hank
Hank/Videology Where you get all the P.O.M.P. under all
circumstances.