#BonesPro
29 messages in this thread
>> That was the Death Gate one, … <<
That's correct. The dragon was one of the few meshes I didn't build from
scratch. I posted a couple of requests but I was suprised to learn, no one at
that time had one. So I bought the Viewpoint one and reworked everything. Talk
about mostly skin, this poor guy looked like he hadn't eaten in months. <g> So
I gave him a healthy diet of polygons and vertices and in no time he was ready
to do battle with Haplo. But morphing these guys was something else.
So you just got BPro and Lensfx in the mail huh? I guess you just managed to
slip under the wire. <g> I got my copy last Thursday! <G> What took you so
long? <g> Actually I've wanted to comment on it but until now did not feel
knowledgeable enough to express my views. Its a really fine program and as
others have commented on various noteworthy aspects I won't be redudant.
But something I haven't heard alot of discussion about is the "smooth" program.
Wow! What an amazing bit of work that is. To me its pretty close to the price
of admission, alone! A very useful tool like Optimize, and I think it deserves
some serious attention on its own merits. These kinds of programs are my
favorites. These utility programs that allow you to do so much and make working
with polygons so much easier. With all this talk about splines, a tool like
"smooth" makes the point moot as far as I'm concerned.
Really could have used both of these programs for Death Gate. I suspect we're
going to see alot more character animation, just as a matter of course.
Well have fun with it, I know I will.
John
<<But something I haven't heard alot of discussion about is the "smooth"
program.>>
Enlighten me further smoothy!
David "Double ice cream smoothie" Gould
David,
The Smooth routine is a PXP that is included to smooth the joints between two
booleans. The example they give is attaching legs to an animal. Its for the
bendy parts. But its useful for all kinds of organic looking joints.
Like for instance you have to simulate two molecules coming together, well at
some point the surface tension of two liquid objects melds together, but if you
were just to move the molecules into each other you wouldn't get that surface
tension look. Smooth can join them so that they have that "averaged surface
tension" appearance. But there are tons of possible uses. Its is similar to the
blob sculptor in the resulting appearance, so when you apply Smooth to two
booleaned cross section pipes, it looks alot more organic.
Optimize, Fractalize, and Displace are my three favorite utilites in this
category; and I now include Smooth as the fourth. With this combination you
can create some very organic looking models with polygons.
John
<<The Smooth routine is a PXP that is included to smooth the joints between two
booleans.>>
From your message it appears to be perfect for my current work; cell mitosis. A
few questions:
Does it create a new object from the two separate objects? Can it be animated?
How much does it cost? Is there a demo version? Where can I get more
information on this product?
Those few questions should keep you going for a while <g> Thanks John.
David "Smooth move" Gould
David,
The SMOOTH.PXP is part of the BonesPro package. The reason I mentioned it was
because its a pretty amazing little program in itself and rather than just
reiterate what everyone else was saying about BonesPro, that was my little
"sidebar". <g>
I did use your current situation as an example, but there are hundreds.
>> Does it create a new object. << No you select which vertices you want
affected and it pulls them allowing you to smooth the seam in a uniform way. I
don't know if there's a demo version.
>> Can it be animated. << Sure as it uses the original vertices.
What you'd probably have to do is have the two cells meet each other, hide them
then create a boolean object from two duplicates, make a copy of that and then
smooth the copy and morph between the two. Pretty straightforward I think.
>>Where can I get more information… <<
Like 99% of all IPASes you can get them from either Schreiber Instruments or
Digimation. Bonespro and Smooth are exclusively from Digimation.
They can be reached at 504 785-3969. They have an 800 number but I think its
only CONUS. Pricing may have gone up since Jan 31st. You'll have to ask.
BTW, I've considered your portable media query, and I don't think I can add
much to what's already been said. I use Bernoulli's and Exabtye. Optical is
great but its prone to dust. If you go with an external hard-drive make sure
its shock mounted, like the Micropolis.
>> That should be enough to keep you busy for awhile… <<
Shoot, that is never a problem. <G> It always seems like there's a ton of stuff
to do, so I come here to escape. <g>
John
>>What took you so long? <g>
Let's just say that the procedure for ordering software changed w/out my
knowing, and I had to jump through a few more hoops than usual. Not that I'm
complaining or anything :^).
>>"smooth" program…pretty close to the price of admission, alone!
I can do nothing but agree! Using nothing but spheres and cylinders (well, and
one lofted shape for the palm), I made a passable hand in a few hours (okay, so
it was a thin, spindly alien hand, but it was a lot better than my previous
efforts). If it's just a utility program, then we need more utilty programs
:^)! I spent more time this weekend using smooth than I did w/bones.
John Stetzer
JWS
>> Let's just say that the procedure for ordering software changed… <<
Well you know I was kidding you… right? <g> So did you have to do a song and
dance and make the gal in accounting laugh before you got your P.O.? 🙂
>> If it's just a utility program, then we need more utility programs :^)
Here! here! I think they're percieved as not being so glamourous, so aren't
hardly worth mentioning, but invariably those are the ones I use _all_ the
time. The tools of the trade, as it were. <BG> Glad you feel the same. I think
you can tell the modelers in the group. 🙂
I've been playing with the triceratops on the R3 CD. I'd like to figure out if
there's a way to use bones to open and close the mouth. Muscles seem like a
piece of cake. I just used a small box in between the joints and scaled it
larger. The beauty of this program is its simplicity of design. No wild colored
interface just a nice clean functional layout.
My only initial wish for this product was that when you ran the preview, you
could save the resulting flic (being able to specify a resolution would be nice
as well) or replay the wireframe from memory, without having to re-render.
Hopefully just an oversight. It just isn't fast enough to get any real sense
of what's happening, and this is one module you could stay in until the job is
done. <g>
Michelle did a nice job on the instruction manual as well. Makes it look easy
and not overly complicated. She gets right to it, in a clear concise fashion.
John
>>you know I was kidding you… right? <g>
Yes :^).
>>So did you have to do a song and dance and make the gal in accounting laugh
before you got your P.O.? 🙂
If I'd have tried a song and dance, I'd have been pelted with tomatos…then
laughed at. Might have been fun to try, though ;^).
>>Glad you feel the same
Truthfully, so far it (smooth.pxp) almost feels like I'm working with a
metaball modelor, only not limited to spheres or such; anything that can be
booleaned together will do just fine, thank you. And then, in addition to
smooth, they give you this nice tool to animate it with ;^). It's my favorite
IPAS of the moment. Didn't know how bad I wanted this till I got it :^).
Smooth, combined w/optimize, is a_killer_modelling combo. Now, all we need is
that 64k face limit to fall :^).
>>I'd like to figure out if there's a way to use bones to open and close the
mouth
That's on my list to try; I'd guess (based on limited use; I may
be_completely_off base here) that if you started w/an open mouth, the radius of
influence of the bones for the mouth wouldn't overlap for the upper and lower
jaw (tweaking away, of course, till it was set up correctly).
>>you could save the resulting flic…replay the wireframe from memory
I'll add a second vote for flic output.
>>She gets right to it, in a clear concise fashion.
To compliment a clean, concise program :^). It's already changed my new dragon
;^). TTYL…
John Stetzer
JWS
Your description of "smooth" was right on. Its really something and so
unpretentious.
I want to see what you've done to the dragon, but with things as there are in
the libraries, I'm reluctant to suggest uploading anything at the moment.
Let me know when you do,
Thanks,
John
>>…you've done to the dragon
It'll be a while on that. I'm going to do this one correctly, and now that I've
got a better system at home I'm going to try to do the animation I'd designed
the dragon for (the idea for it's been dancin' in my head for about a year
now). Hope I can get it done before Siggraph. I am going to upload the
unmodified hand I mentioned, though. It needs tweaking (esp. in the thumb area)
but hey, it only took a couple of hours; can't expect perfection in that
timeframe, eh?
>>Let me know when you do
Will do. TTYL…
John Stetzer
JWS
OH, and BION (believe it or not), I'd thought about seeing whether or not flame
could be used as a fake for hair in a galloping horse's mane (it might work for
the tail, but I don't even want to think about the puns that could arise
from_that_;^).
John Stetzer
JWS
>> but I don't even want to think about the puns… <<
Very funny…. <G>
John
Hi John,
<< Here! here! I think they're percieved as not being so glamourous, so
aren't hardly worth mentioning, but invariably those are the ones I use _all_
the time.. >>
Well.. where does hair_i fall? I keep looking at peoples heads and wondering
how the h… can you model that? Glamourous? maybe.. but it's got me facinated
right now. 🙂
jonas[adesk]
>> I keep looking at peoples heads…
I bet you're making alot of people nervous. <g> (do I have dandruff or what? )
If you're looking for thoughts on how a Hair_i IPAS might work, see how this
strikes you <g>. You wouldn't need individual hair but strands of layered
sections. Something that would create thin fractal strands of three or four
elongated triagular faces. I would think most of the code would be in Flame_i,
and as with Flame_i you could specify a direction vector. <g> That could be
applied with a Scatter_i type placement system which could be based on
selection sets of specific vertices. This could be built up in layers starting
with the lowest vertices of the head and working upward to the top. If you
combined Order_i with the program, you could detach the top portion of the head
and have it re-order the vertices, so that the strands would link in a circular
fashion each successive layer overlapping the group below all around to the top
of the head. You could have a collection of small bit maps of hair that would
be applied to the each strand, that would flow with the contours of the
strands, mapped in a similar fashion to Flame-i. Then it would be a matter of
just positioning the strands (which could be selected as elements) to get the
desired shape and character of the hair. And if you wanted to get really wild,
you could apply the same principles of Flame_i so that the hair looked like it
was blowing in the breeze. Great for those animations where the character needs
to be driving with the top down. You could have different settings; Light
Breezy Day, Kite Flying weather, Convertible Ride, and Gale Force Winds.
Definitely an IPAS with mass appeal!
Uh huh. (Let me know when you start beta testing. <g>)
John "Master of Chaotic Hair"
Hi John,
<< Definitely an IPAS with mass appeal! >>
True but not in the category of utility-tool.
<< If you combined Order_i with the program, you could detach the top portion
of the head and have it re-order the vertices, so that the strands would link
in a circular fashion each successive layer overlapping the group below all
around to the top of the head. >>
So these would be non-concentric circles?
A general purpose "ReOrdering_i the facelist and vertlist" would be an
interesting utility to tackle. <g>
<< You wouldn't need individual hair but strands of layered sections. Something
that would create thin fractal strands of three or four elongated triagular
faces.>>
mmm….do the 4 faces make up a single hierarchy? How would 4 faces help solve
for the "perm" "friz" "soft-wavy" effects?
I haven't dove into the previous SIGGRAPH preceedings relating to hair yet, but
I'm having fun looking at the problem. Another one is clothes and "static
cling.."
jonas[adesk]
Hi Jonas,
>> So these would be non-concentrick circles… <<
It would depend on how the head was made. Concentric rings where what I first
envisioned with a Scatter type approach and manually selecting each set of
vertices. The second approach was reOrder-ing and that would be non-concentric.
Some one has created an Order_i. I haven't used it and I don't know if its
freely available, but if it is, I'll upload it into the IPAS section.
>> Do the four faces make up a single hierarchy? <<
Like a long thin trusse, but having enought points that you can manipulate it
into a variety of shapes. Perms would definitely require more. For contemporary
hair styles however, this approach would be a big improvement. Theres's a new
game out, where the hair on the guys head makes him look like a total "punker".
I need some practice in this area, so I'm going to do some experimenting as
time permits. Maybe I can get together with TIm and put some hair on his
Humanoid. <G>
Keep those thoughts coming, and I'll see what I can do about this hair thing so
you can puzzle out a solution.
John
BTW I just learned SGI bought out Alias and Wavefront, is this going to cause a
tidal wave or what? Just when you thought things couldn't get much more
curious… somebody throws a new curve… never a dull moment.
>> But something I haven't heard alot of discussion about is the "smooth"
program. Wow! What an amazing bit of work that is. To me its pretty close to
the price of admission, alone!
Hey, me, too! It's the "fillet" capability I and others have asked
for in the past.
Hi Carl,
>> It's the "fillet" capability I and others have asked for in the past. <<
Ah now there's a neat use for it, I hadn't thought of it that way, as
I do alot of vertice editing and dettaching and reattaching parts but
of course the "smooth" would work ideally with boolean operations.
Good one!
I've been having a blast with it creating "starships", which I don't
typically build but in conjunction with the lofter etc. I'm just
cranking them out! Nothing real fancy but they sure render
smoooooth. <G>
I love smooth, however I often get memory allocation errors (even though I have
64mb ram and the models I am manipulating arn't THAT large.)
Ian.
Two of my systems have 64Mb of RAM and I haven't experienced any
memory allocation errors. The only thing I can suggest is post a
note here to Digimation and request assistance. Like you I'm just an
animator here trying to share what works and what doesn't. Sorry to
hear you're having problems with it. Its definitely a great tool, so
I hope your problem can be resolved quickly.
John,
I just went back and caught the beginning of this thread. I haven't had a
chance to play with the smooth IPAS (yet!), but one of my customers bought
Bones -and ALL he can talk about is how great smooth is!
He started by smoothing arms booleaned to a torso and ended up smoothing the
whole thing. He's been raving all week!
Paul -Rising Star Graphics
Paul,
>> and ALL he can talk about is how great smooth is! <<
Yeah well, I agree of course! I find it very interesting how it just hits some
people that way. I really like Bones too but as a modeler its just a really
neat tool that gives you really professional looking results. And its so simple
to use. Well thanks for passing that along.
John
PMFJI
I tend to get memory allocation errors often when using smooth. If I just try
again without any changes it always works. Obviously a bug, but the work around
is so easy I havnt bothered to report it.
Ed
Try smooth again without any changes. Thanks, I never would have thought of
that!
Ian.
>> they sure render smoooooth
Good for you!
I, on the other hand, am still having a bit of trouble getting the renders
=smooth= in the intersection area. I'm sure it's just that I'll have to be a
bit more careful to match (and increase) the vertex "densities" of the meshes
in the intersection area.
Carl,
>> still having a bit of trouble getting the renders =smooth= in the
intersection area. <<
Well you may already know this but aside from using optimize, the "edge divide"
tool is a quick and fast way to add faces especially at the joints.
The way I build models is with a fair amount of faces to begin with. This is
important for booleans anyway. Then I run the model through Optimize, after
which I reweld all the vertices, and run it through again. In some cases you
don't want to do this because you lose the mapping coordinates which may be
difficult to re-define. But otherwise I keep doing this until optimize at its
default setting of 2 doesn't eliminate any more faces. Usually this is about 2
or 3 passes. By then I've got a pretty decent model with a low face count. At
this point I can do any vertex editing that needs to be done as its easier to
work with. After which I'll use smooth on selected vertices, to give it a
uniform vertice distribution and smooth edges. <g>
Hope this helps,
John
>> The way I build models is with a fair amount of faces to begin with. This
is important for booleans anyway. Then I run the model through Optimize, after
which I reweld all the vertices, and run it through again. In some cases you
don't want to do this because you lose the mapping coordinates which may be
difficult to re-define. But otherwise I keep doing this until optimize at its
default setting of 2 doesn't eliminate any more faces. Usually this is about 2
or 3 passes. By then I've got a pretty decent model with a low face count. At
this point I can do any vertex editing that needs to be done as its easier to
work with. After which I'll use smooth on selected vertices, to give it a
uniform vertice distribution and smooth edges. <g> <<
This is exactly what I needed to know for *my* smoothing problem with muscles
using BONES.
-James Franssen
James,
>> This is exactly what I needed to know for *my* smoothing problem… <<
Great! Glad it'll help.
John
>> The way I build models is … <<
Thanks, John. Your tips are very helpful and I appreciate your
posting them!