#Amiga Yeah, CBM Yack!
48 messages in this thread
I've been gathering and studying info of CBM and Amiga Systems for about 3
weeks now. I've read and digested Amiga Magazine (US and Europeans) and
have obtained a single conclusion. The Amiga is an AMAZING system, but its
co., CBM, got to be the most dissapoiting aspect of the whole system.
I don't what to list or explain why, you guys probably know by now, but its
is absurd, ridiculous, disrespectful to the users. CBM just plain and
simple SUCKS. And their reputation, ideology, and egocentric points of
views are affecting my decision on whether to buy an A4000 or not.
Sincerely, Cindy
Any comments or personal relief are welcome 🙂
I'm not entirely sure just how accurately one can judge the merits of a
company based on three weeks of reading through magazines.
Jim
"I'm not entirely sure just how accurately one can judge the merits of a
company based on three weeks of reading through magazines."
I agree, just a few minutes analyzing what CBM has done in past years
should be plenty enough time to see that they really do SUCK.
Nick
Yeah, well…
It's really easy, and popular to bash CBM. I'm not in that camp, sorry.
Jim
Sounds to me like she isn't too far off, considering that the mags are a
few months behind. It's only VERY recently that we've seen ads and things
like the 4000 itself.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Cindy,
I simply must disagree with your assesment of Commodore. I find them
sometimes slow to react, but do they "suck"? No way. The company that
was once Commodore, in the 64 days is now busy destroying Atari Corp.
Commodore has managed to build a niche for their personal computers in the
United States with key developers like NewTek. The Amiga has moved from
what many would consider a 'toy' to a machine to be dealt with in the
desktop video business. I no longer as a dealer have to put up with folks
who come in and say "What is an Omega?" The machine does get respect from
those who know and understand graphics.
Could Commodore be better? Why sure.
-mark=
Well put Mark.
Patrick White
<<<<<<Auto User>>>>>>>>>
Cindy,
> "Amiga Yeah, CBM Yack!" <
What does "Yack" mean? 😎
Dom Fontana
<– Sent from New York via AutoPilot –>
Dominick,
"Yack" rhymes with "Mac".
Patrick White
<<<<<<Auto User>>>>>>>>>
Cindy:
While CBM might seem like a strange company, and lots of people like to
bash them, they really are an ok company. It's just that most people like
to blame Commodore for all that's wrong with the Amiga market, and try to
compare it to the likes of IBM. CBM is in lots of ways a small company,
and they manage to put out, and improve on one of the finest computers
made (why the Amiga of course) with a rather small R&D department.
Sure Commodore does some REALLY stupid things, but then I think all
companies at one time or another do too. On a whole, I'd say that if
you're interested in the Amiga that you should by all means get one, and
don't worry about Commodore's future, as they were around before all the
clone makers even thought of making computers, and I'm sure they'll be
around for some time to come.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Cindy,
CBM has been amazingly inept in the past at marketing the best personal
computer in the galaxy… But I must say they've gotten REMARKABLY better
in the past 9 months or so. They're now advertising SOME at least, they
have helpful PR folks, and better machines. They're doing better now than
they have in years….
"CBM has been amazingly inept in the past at marketing the best personal
computer in the galaxy… But I must say they've gotten REMARKABLY better
in the past 9 months or so. They're now advertising SOME at least, they
have helpful PR folks, and better machines. They're doing better now than
they have in years…."
that's true Denny, but don't you think that it's really coming too late?
It's just so frustrating to me to see so much good software coming out for
the clones and just a trickle of stuff for the Amiga. I have been with the
AMiga for many years and currently have a 2000 and a 3000. I love my
machine but I really have a hard time recommending the machine to friends
to buy as a new computer even for playing games. The main reason is that
there are too few dealers that really support the machine (in Columbus Ohio
there is really only 1 dealer that supports it). I don't know, it's just
frustrating. Maybe the situation is better for other Amiga owners in
bigger towns but around here it's pretty grim.
Nick
It's too late until it IS too late. In other words, only hindsight can
make that statement with 100% assurance.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
> "It's too late until it IS too late." <
Who are you? Yogi Berra? 😎
Dom Fontana
<– Sent from New York via AutoPilot –>
Denny,
Here, here! Between the PR support and Greg Givler's help on CIS, things
are really looking up.
Marion
CROSSINGS
Newsletter for the Bridgeboard, etc.
Cindy, I think you're being overly harsh on Commodore. The company is far
from perfect, but they've been improving noticeably over the past year.
Their engineering division ranks with the best anywhere, and their
marketing arm, while still weaker than most of us would like, looks to be
gaining some strength.
At any rate, I bought my Amigas (three of 'em so far, with a fourth to
come in a couple weeks) mostly because of what the hardware and software
were, and are, capable of. It's certainly important, though, to keep in
mind what sort of company is making the machine you're considering
spending your money on…so I think you need to take a little more time,
and listen to more folks' opinions (some of which are bound to be at least
as pointed as yours <g>), before you come down so hard on CBM.
-Dave (via AutoPilot)
Cindy,
Sign on to the CBM forum and tell THEM. They don't believe Amiga users.
They think we are all idiots. But if they hear it from and outsider whose
money they don't already have, maybe they will take notice.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Uh… I, for one, don't think that all Amiga Users are idiots. I find that
most are quite knowledgable. If Cindy would like to list some of the
specifics maybe I can try and answer them.
Greg
Greg Givler – CBMSER Sysop
Commodore Product Assurance
Greg,
I'm not trying to give you a hard time – I know you cannot control
management, but…
IDE on the A4000 MB? Did users really ask for that?
Commodore Tech support? There isn't any. I have technical questions
regarding my motherboard and other issues on my A2000, but the dealer I
bought it from is out of business. The next closest dealer offered
$50/hour phone support and reasearch time to get an answer to my question.
And since CBM has no tech support their are a rash of developers who
blame "non-standard CBM motherboards" for all kinds of errors.
CBM's initial decision to kill 2.04 in the U.S. because "users aren't
interested in it." That does not show much respect for the users.
The coldness (if not contemptuousness) displayed toward users who
actually put a Toaster in their CBM machines. It is not the users' fault
that CBM and New-Tek don't get along.
These are just a few of the recent things that come to mind.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Well, let me try and answer your questions.
IDE on the A4000:
I believe that was an attempt to keep the new machine in a reasonable
price range. Fast SCSI support is very expensive, I know I have seen the
cost of the chip. I can't say as to whether I agree with the decision to
put IDE on the motherboard, but then they don't ask me 🙂 The IDE
interface is limiting but that is mainly because of the IDE spec, if we
had IDE II and IDE II drives then you could put more and cheaper drives on
the drive chain. Cost of the drives is another thing to think about. If a
SCSI drive is more expensive to the consumer, it is to the manufacturer
also. In other words Commodore pays more for SCSI drives than IDE drives
and that cost is past on to the consumer. And most of the people in this
forum seem to complain that comparable Amigas cost more than a 486 box.
Well one of the reasons is that 486 boxes have IDE drives most of the
time.
No Tech Support.
I assume you are talking about developer support. Well you pay for the
previledge, and as far as I know there about 10 folks up in CATS that
commercial developers can call if they have questions. I realize that may
not be alot but it is there. Also all developers have BIX to ask questions
and get ideas. The Commodore engineers hang out there to.
If you are talking about Customer Support. You can ask me, I will try and
get you an answer, but I do this on my free time, so as a result I can't
always take the time to track down an answer. But I do try. I am not a
hardware guy, but if you have a technical problem I can ask one of the
hardware guys about it.
Non-Standard CBM motherboards?
I don't understand this one. Since we make the machine and publish the
specs to ZorroII and ZorroIII we make the standard that the developers
have to follow.
CBM initial decision on 2.04
I don't ever remember anyone saying that Commodore was killing 2.04. Quite
the contrary, I remember when we were told that as the existing 1.3 roms
<continued>
No tech support:
I guess I wasn't clear. I can't call any CBM number and get a straight
answer to a technical question. One like "is it true that the 4.1
Motherboard is listed as 'non-standard' by CBM and therefore hardware that
is compatible with CBM standards will not be compatible with the 4.1
motherboard?"
Both NewTek and GVP have told me this is true. I have no recourse but to
believe them since there is no CBM tech support other than through a
dealer who will only charge me $50/hour to get an answer to the question
since I didn't buy my machine from him. (As I mentioned, the dealer I did
buy from is out of business.) Ive also never heard of a Mac or IBM dealer
being such an AH about answering a question.
Re: IDE –
CBM had to have know that most people (at least initially) that bought
4000's would be Amiga users. Those users have SCSI devices already. SCSI
is also a Mac standard and is showing up more frequently for "power users"
on clone systems and clone systems running unix derivatives. SCSI prices
have gotten fairly reasonable. This particular decision did not show a
lot of sensitivity to the users or developers.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Most Amiga dealer's aren't quite so bad as the one you describe. For that
matter, there are cheaper ways to get answers you need, like asking here.
grin>
While it's true you can't call CBM and get much tech support (unless
you're a member of their developer program…) the same really applies to
Apple and IBM. (Heck, even when you *are* a member of IBM's developer
program, it's nearly impossible to get an answer from them… <g>)
The SCSI bit, was, IMHO, a mistake, one which will hopefully be fixed.
–>Steve Bennett
From a message on the MACHW Forum a couple of days ago:
> "Authorized Apple Dealer." What a waste of words!
> . . . . . .
> . . . . . .
> In the last three years of working with Apple products, I have never
> been able to get any help from that "authorized Apple dealer." . . .
And so it goes! 🙂
REC
——
I will look into the 4.1 motherboard question. I do know that there were
problems with certain motherboard revs. I still can't see the non-standard
part. That seems sort of silly since we are the standard, or is somebody
else making Amigas that I am not aware of.
All I can say is that Commodore is aware of the desire of 4000 owners to
be able to use SCSI cards, and by the way with a ROM upgrade you can use a
2091 on an A4000. SCSI support will be forthcoming, just please don't ask
me when cause I don't know.
Greg
Greg Givler – CBMSER Sysop
Commodore Product Assurance
Greg,
I had a 6.0 motherboard in my A2500. It was fine until I added some
third-party cards. Then I had compatibility problems. My dealer said to
call CBM. I did, and they promptly authorized my dealer to upgrade my
botherboard to REV.6.2, free of charge. It cured all my problems.
Another time, my 1950 monitor was acting up after the warranty expired.
I called CBM and they graciously called my dealer and told him to give me
a new 1950 monitor on the spot.
I have received nothing but fantastic service in all my dealings with
CBM.
Dom Fontana
<– Sent from New York via AutoPilot –>
Greg,
I _hope_ they are aware of the desire for potential A4000 customers to
have SCSI _on the motherboard_, as opposed to having to buy into a separate
controller, eating a slot. A high end machine without native SCSI support
is just too ridiculous to think about.
-larry
Larry,
Perhaps you might consider me biased or un-informed for what I am about to
type–oh well, many have disagreed with before.
I think the Amiga 4000 needs SCSI to be available, I am just not sure it
has to be on the motherboard. Why should people who do not have a great
investment in SCSI hardware have to pay the price it takes to add it to
the motherboard? According to a posting on usenet from a Commodore
employee Commodore would have to add about $50 in parts to the A4000
motherboard to give it built in SCSI-2 capability. That $50 translates
into $200 by the time it hits the dealer shelves and into your hands.
I often wonder why the Amiga is held to a higher standard by the Amiga
users while at the same time they compare the lower standard PCs to
Commodore and the Amiga. For example, it is quite common for someone to
compare a 486/33 ISA based system to the A3000 and talk about how much
better a value the 486 system is. It doesn't matter to these individuals
that the 486 is stuffed onto a slow 16 bit bus, with slots that operate at
8Mhz. Commodore is just supposed to 'keep the price down' and at the same
time offer 'high end' equipment.
The A4000 has a great price and is selling well. A SCSI-2 card has been
announced and should be available first quarter 1993. I think that is
enough. A2000 did not have SCSI on the motherboard and many consider it
to be a great multimedia machine. The fact SCSI was not on the
motherboard in that system has kept many hardware manufacturers in
business. Tell me, how many A3000 Zorro III cards have been developed in
the last two years??
What I want from Commodore now is a SCSI-2 card with a CD ROM sub-system
that is CDTV compatible.
-mark=
Well, I think it needs it on the motherboard, built-in, standard equipment.
It need not be the latest, greatest, fastest SCSI implementation in the
world. In fact, the implementation as seen on the A3000 would do just fine.
To put IDE on the motherboard is to promote a so-called 'standard' that is
both regressive and slow, not to mention the paucity of choices for
peripherals other than disk. Placing IDE on an Amiga only lends credence to
mediocrity. We can be above that, and should be.
As for comparisons… I don't bother comparing any Intel-based machines to
the Amiga, and pretty much ignore comparisons that others make. Show me an
Intel machine running an OS and GUI as good as the Amiga's, at a decent
rate of speed, and I will start looking at the comparisons.
-larry
There's another thing here too, Mark – SCSI-II isn't anything that has to
take up any large amount of real estate on a card unless the design is a
pig, anyway. Ideally, CBM will add a few bucks for a ram controller and a
bunch of slots (or get someone who knows how to provide a design, like
Dean Brown). If they do that, you could be buying (for instance) a card
with SCSI-II *and* room for 64mb of ram. That's worth a slot, and would
leave plenty of room for the SCSI-II design as well. No reason it has to
"waste" a slot.
Although I will say that if all that comes on the card is SCSI-II, then I
agree with Larry's estimation – it's a waste of a slot and ludicrous.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Mark-
My vote would be for a SCSI-II card with extra parallel ports or a
networking port so I could link all my Amigas.
Carl
Why does SCSI support need to be on the motherboard of the 4000? Mark, I
can't believe that you could be so gullable to believe CBM's point of view
that it thought the user's really wouldn't miss SCSI support. Here is a
machine that is being advertised as the ultimate "Multimedia" computer,
with fantastic graphics, sound, etc and yet most of the tools that are
used with multimedia such as CD-Rom drives, scanners, removable and other
large hard drives, are all best supported with SCSI. Even IBM users are
beginning to recognize the fact that SCSI support is important and I would
say there is a large percentage of them out there with SCSI controllers.
Why should a buyer of such a high end Amiga have to worry about getting a
seperate controller and taking up one of his slots for something that
should have been supported in the first place. And do you think that
someone who is out to purchase a 4000 is going to worry about an extra
$100 so he can have SCSI on the motherboard? I doubt it.
John – K7KB (Flying via AutoPilot)
For one thing, the PC SCSI's are separate cards too.
Another thing is that SCSI on the 4000 motherboardprobably would have
added about $200, and that is substantial enough for me to think about,
and I am shopping for a new Amiga as we speak! (Hard to decide. 1200 3000
or a 4000… I'm leaning towards a 1200 right now because of the cost
🙂
Another thing is that your overestimating the amount of PC's with SCSI,
heck there is probably as many Amiga 500's with SCSI controller as there
are SCSI PC's! Thats not even counting the other Amiga's.
I'm not saying I don't like SCSI, far from it even, it's a very powerful
interface that can be used for more than hard drives, and I want SCSI in
my machine, but unlike you, I don't mond using a slot for it, because that
same SCSI board is probably going to have RAM capability, and that I'm
going to need for sure!
I don't think IDE is as big a mistake as some people think, and from what
I hear, it hasn't hurt sales either.
Bob Comer
"A high end machine without native SCSI support is just too ridiculous to
think about."
I have to agree Larry. I've got a SyQuest 44 and CD-Rom drive that doesn't
do me much good on my 4000. For CBM not to include SCSI on the motherboard
was just plain stupid. And I don't relish the thought of using a slot just
for a SCSI controller.
John – K7KB (Flying via AutoPilot)
Folks,
This message is directed at everyone>
Today I was rendering a picture with VistaPro and I decided to go grab my
messages with AutoPilot. My modem fired off and then it happened. The
light dawned as my system nearly halted everytime the buffer was full.
Why? Because the system was waiting for the damn IDE hard drive to do its
thing! I have a Motorola 68040 based system, and two tasked nearly killed
it waiting for disk I/O!
I take back my statement here in the message base and in CO. IDE must go,
and it has got to get off of my motherboard. Wow, I never had that happen
on my A3000.
-mark=
PS: I like my A4000 a lot, but that damn IDE is going to be the first
thing I take care of when C= releases the SCSI-2 card.
IDE may be the culprit, but my system (A3000,10MB RAM) comes to its knees
every time I use AutoPilot with LightWave rendering in the bkgd.
I have the same problem: The buffer fills, and everything halts as it gets
written off to the hard disk (very slowly).
I had assumed it was related to my low-memory condition (only 800K CHIP
RAM, 600 BYTES FAST avail right now). I was thinking maybe the OS had
flushed the 256K disk buffer I allocated for the work partition or
something. (But, what do I know :^)
IDE was DEFINITELY a STUPID choice, for other reasons.
Mainly because they've hosed ALL their previous users who bought into the
SCSI format.
(When Apple came out with the Quadra, they didn't get rid of SCSI, they
ADDED Ethernet! Come on guys, we're going the wrong direction here!)
I'll keep my 3000, put in a 3rd party '040, and wait for the 5000.
C= really dropped the ball on this one. (So, what else is new? :^)
Keep On Toastin'
Erik Flom
There you have it. The most amazing thing I found about this computer
(A3000) is that you CAN download files (Via AutoPilot), and while that is
going on, I can pop off and do some financial work, prepare reports on the
word processor, browse DISTANT SUNS, or whatever, and I don't need to
worry about disk access problems or system lockups, or even slowdowns.
This is a perfect example of a bad C= decision. I'm sure the engineers who
designed the computer foresaw this problem, but I guess it was deemed an
acceptable compromise when put against the savings in cost.
There is no excuse for a top-of-the-line computer, let alone a
multi-tasking multimedia computer, to be equipped with IDE, especially
since SCSI was introduced as standard a couple years ago. Sometimes, I
wonder how they come up with these things.
—- On AutoPilot
— Dave
Try downloading the messages to RAM! No bottleneck…
IDE is slow, but there's always a workaround slownes.
p.s. Your IDE controller is no slower than my SCSI contoller, and I don't
have the kind of slowdowns you refer to… My SCSI is not a DMA
interface, and I have a LOT slower CPU!
RAM does wonders for any disk speed problems.
Bob Comer
Greg,
I would be forever in your debt if you could get to the bottom of the MB
rev issue. GVP most recently and NewTek Tech supporters least recently
said that CBM told them that rev 4.4 was the Standard mohterboard and all
revisions up to that point were not, and that they only had to consider
compatibility with 4.4 on for products to be compatible. GVP even went so
far as to tell me that CBM dealers were supposed to upgrade motherboards
earlier than 4.4 with either a new MB or some circuit changes. I have yet
to find a dealer who knows (or will admit to) such a change. You could
really help me sort out whether thie is true, or if GVP is really trying
to get off the hook to support me in the SCSI problems I'm having.
Thanks in advance.
wmc – via Autopilot!
I had a similar problem a while back and when I went to my dealer, the guy
at the counter new nothing of a motherboard swap/upgrade etc… But then I
talked to the head service guy and he said "sure, and they swapped out my
MB for nothing." He said he was told about it, (the standardizing of the
motherboard,) but didn't have any takers until me. Even at that dealer, I
had to talk to several people before I found someone that really knew what
they were talking about. I say, keep pressing the issue with your dealer!
-Jonathan
Johnathan-
Thats the problem – my dealer has gone under and all the other dealers
will only change my MB for about the same price as a new 2000. Here in
CA, CBM apparently, after mistreating all the dealers badly for years now
refuses to deal direct with them so they can only deal with some sort of
middle-man distributer who has no interest in customer support once a sale
is made. At least that is what a former dealer told me.
wmc – via Autopilot!
were used up all platforms would be going to 2.0 and higher. That meant in
the U.S. as well as Europe. This was planned before the release of the
3000. Commodore knows which operating system is better. It is just that
there are marketing considerations for everything.
The toaster?
I don't care what you put in our machine, as long as you buy it 🙂 This
keeps me gainfully employed. Commodore and New-Tek are not having a feud
to my knowledge. Commodore publishes a spec that hardware developers can
get that tell you how big a ZorroII and ZorroIII board can be, also how
thick the bracket can be and all that other neato stuff. It is the
developers, any developers business to follow that spec, if they want
their product to work in all our machines. Also Commodore talks, sometimes
daily, to developers. We did as we developed 3.0, using many of the
developers as BETA testers for the new Video Modes.
I am sorry if you are not happy with the direction that Commodore is
taking, but I think it is a good direction. The new hardware and software
are very good and very stable.
Greg
Greg Givler – CBMSER Sysop
Commodore Product Assurance
Wayne,
Here's a few more to stew on:
– Not releasing 3.0 for all Amigas and thereby crippling the
new features (like datatypes) from getting significant developer
support
– Foisting 2.1 off on users instead of 3.0
– Dumping the Speech from 2.1/3.0
– Still no VM
– Still no GFX retargetability
– Still no inter-task protection
===================================
Having said that, there's the HUGE positive side of current CBM affairs:
+ Ads in mags other than the AW class (not so much preaching to the
converted)
CD-ROM "thing" for a500 (finally) released
+ AGA/24-bit gfx technology released
+ a600 & a600hd released
+ a4000 released
+ a1200 announced, hopefully released early Dec as they say (bet it is)
+ Glastnost re future technical plans, finally!
+ Gold Service, reprised
================================
At least it's a toss-up now. Used to be that almost all the news was bad
news.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
But Ben,
Will they STICK with it? Every ad campaign they have run in the past
lasted long enough for one or two Amiga enthusiats to hear/see/read it and
bam – it stopped. You don't generate brand awareness that way. And the
way they are IVING the CDTV market to Phillips CDI is disgusting. You
can't find a CDTV ad (let alone a unit) anywhere. But CDI units are in
almost every store I've been in that sells any electronics and the ads are
all over the little bit of TV I watch each week.
Your 2.1/3.0 issues sound like good ones, but I'll have to take your word
for it as I have no knowledge of the internals (still on 2.04 and with the
dealer sparcity and total lack of CBM support to the few that are left in
CA, I suspect we won't see 2.1 kits until April or May – especially if the
2.04 availability was an example.)
wmc – via Autopilot!
CBM's giving the CDTV market to Phillips? Maybe it's the other way around:
everyone else making similar gizmos (including CBM) benefits from Phillip's
ad dollars. They all look the same when you see one in the store. They
all look like VCRs. Does a Nintendo look like a VCR? 🙂
I've been seeing *infomercials* for the new Tandy VIS system.
I think it is great exposure for CDTV because all these products
seem to be alittle ahead of their time in the consumer market.
Waiting for THE super application…….
CBM was first as usual but never seem to get any respect for that.
An AGA CDTV II would be great right about now for Pro kiosk type
applications, and would put them a couple years ahead of the
competition. But they would still get no respect!! Bummer…
I don't know if they will stick with the ad campaign – past examples tend
to indicate not, but I really don't know.
As described, the 2.1/3.0 issues are accurate as stated. The opinions of
course are my own.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Cindy, we have all had to suffer the attrocities from CBM, but in the last
year I have seen a change for the better. They have established themselves
in the video market with a lot of advertising from CBM, plus a lot of help
from NewTek. They are advertising the 4000 in some of the major magazines
like Byte as a multimedia platform. They have released 2 new computers in
the last 2 1/2 months, and from what CBM has been saying they have no
plans to slow down. They use to be closed lipped about any new product
developments, but at the WOA show in Pasadena they indicated they were
going to reverse that policy, and talked about future new products and
technology they were working on. So even though they have a long way to go
before we can call them a good computer company, there is hope for them
yet!
John – K7KB (Flying via AutoPilot)
Cindy,
If you would like to list specific complaints, I will do the best that I
can to answer them, and BTW, I do work for Commodore.
Greg
Greg Givler – CBMSER Sysop
Commodore Product Assurance