Ask a USGS geologist
47 messages in this thread
Hi, folks–
Here is a copy of what Martin Kilgore (thanks!) sent me about another source
of geo-information. CompuServe users can exchange mail with this Internet mail
address by addressing messages to
">INTERNET:ask-a-geologist@octopus.wr.usgs.gov" (do not include the quotes).
Incoming mail via the Internet costs a CIS user (unless you delete without
reading) as much as if the CIS user had sent it (it may be covered by the $9
monthly mail allowance that comes with the standard plan).
–Doug
Ask-A-Geologist – US Geological Survey offers new Internet service
Have you ever wondered about why California has so many earthquakes, and
New York does not? Why is there so much oil in Texas, but not in
Wisconsin? What are the deepest canyons in the United States? (The answer
might surprise you!) While the answers to many of these questions might
be as close as an encyclopedia, some questions are difficult to answer
without checking many sources.
Beginning Monday, October 3, 1994, the USGS will offer a new, experimental
Internet service – Ask-A-Geologist. General questions on earth sciences
may be sent by electronic mail to the Internet address:
ask-a-geologist@octopus.wr.usgs.gov
All electronic mail to Ask-A-Geologist will be routed to the geologist of
the day. The geologist will reply to your question within a day or two,
or provide referrals to better sources of information. Please include an
Internet-accessible return address in the body of your message.
Ask-A-Geologist is an experimental service of the USGS Branch of Pacific
Marine Geology, with participation from several other branches. The
United States Geological Survey is the principal source of scientific and
technical expertise in the earth sciences within the Federal Government.
Naturally, we cannot answer some classes of questions. We cannot answer
questions about specific sites — for example, Is my home in a landslide
area? We cannot answer questions with a specific economic impact — for
example, How much gold is left in the Homestake mine? We cannot endorse
commercial products or companies. And, we cannot answer questions based
on information not yet released to the public. We might be able to
provide referrals to other sources of relevant information.
All questions and answers will be part of the public record. After
collecting questions and answers for a few months, we will make a
Frequently Asked Questions list (with answers) available via anonymous FTP
and World-Wide-Web.
We encourage grade school and high school students with electronic mail
access to send in questions — but we can't write your reports for you!
In limited testing, we've had an enthusiastic response from many grade
school students.
If you have any questions about this service, but not about geology,
please contact the system administrator – Rex Sanders
<rex@octopus.wr.usgs.gov>.
Doug,
An addendum:
Anyone who wants to take advantage of this service should do it soon. I read
yesterday that the USGS is one of the things Swamp Newt and his fellow lower
life forms in the new Congress want to get rid of.
Jon W.
Hi, Jon–
Good point; perhaps the USGS would continue as a private enterprise if that
proposal is adopted, but being private, the USGS would likely discontinue
ask-a-geologist (or charge for it), unless some volunteer financing scheme
(comparable to PBS financing, perhaps) could be put together.
Hmm, the USGS offers a lot of circulars, maps, CDs, and whatnot at low prices
since it is public domain information; geo-fans might want to get aggressive
about obtaining such things before the USGS can be discontinued or privatized.
–Doug
Even if the USGS is privatized, that doesn't stop today's data from being
"public domain." It might mean that you'll pay for tomorrow's version, though.
Obviously, *someone* is paying for that "free" stuff.
Older data would remain public domain, but a privatized USGS might
not find it profitable to make it available ("go find someone who got
it before privatization; we're busy") except at higher
handling/medium charges. Then again, they might, but I do not rely
on it.
What I meant was, the data that's out there today was created and freely
distributed before any privatization. So anything based on today's data can be
sold, too – it just doesn't make much sense to reprint exactly what the USGS
hands out, because you can't compete on price. But look at contemporary
examples of value-added USGS data, like the De Lorme maps. From what I've
seen, there is little value in a lot of what the USGS hands out in electronic
form, because the data is just *too raw*. It's not as if De Lorme is too busy
to take your order! And I'd say their value-per-dollar is better than USGS,
don't you?
Hi, John–
Agreed, when you are willing to pay the price, the data will be readily
available and often in more useful form. From what I understand, De Lorme
seems a good example of this. Still, the USGS does supply many things in a
reasonably useful form at a low price (if one does not count the tax dollars
one has already contributed) which people might want to snap up before the USGS
can be privatized. One virtue of such data is you can process it into more
useful form yourself, and sell it or pass it on with no need to obtain
permission.
–Doug
Doug,
The public domain stuff would remain in the public domain. The government
can't copyright its own workproduct, and any successor to the usgs would not
acquire what the usgs never had. If in the future there was the Acme
Corporation Geological Service, its own workproduct would be copyrightable.
I suspect that the availability of scanning, ocr, and public domain
information would lead to a healthy, competitive, and thus low-priced market
for old usgs materials, if there are enough potential buyers.
Nathan
Hi, Nathan–
I agree, with the reservation that "enough potential buyers" will be a
limiting factor for a fair amount of info. People should be careful to obtain
less-popular data soon if privatization of the USGS is in the offing. When in
doubt about the number of potential customers, I recommend grabbing the data
swiftly. Now if I just knew which data I was talking about…
Data of interest mainly to pros may wind up at a price that is quite reasonable
for pros, but not easy for amateurs, as we have seen with some mineral
databases. As John points out, the sellers may refine the data to add lots of
value and justify those pro prices, but an amateur might have preferred to do
his own less-thorough refining on cheaper data. Neither the USGS nor private
enterprises currently see fit to make available a cheap mineral database (Lanny
may change this soon); this suggests to me that some data currently easy to
obtain might become harder to get (perhaps that which we amateurs find most
interesting), even as other data becomes more readily accessible.
Indeed, the very fact that the raw data is public domain may insure that only
processed, higher price forms would be
–Doug
Doug and all,
Personally I find it unlikely that the USGS will be eliminated. They might get
some trimming of the budget though (there probably is room for that considering
how much time various USGS geologist spend doing research in other countires),
and having spent time walking/hiking as a Bureau of Mines geologist while the
USGS was flying in their expensive helicopter, I expect there is room to do a
little trimming here too. Although as a consumer of geological data, I would
like to see their budget increased (take the money from a few of those strange
"artists."
But, don't be surprised if the Bur. of Mines gets greatly trimmed or killed.
As far as their data being put to good use and better products by private
enterprise, I personally know of no examples. De Lorme? Please tell me what
they produce that is so good. All I have seen so far are there state Atlases
which are definitely useful, but a USGS topo quad, and other quads at various
scales, are the most useful maps of all I've seen.
I also have gotten a lot of good data out of their bulletins, pro. papers, etc.
Some of their publications are being reprinted by private companies. Someone
apparently just reprinted Bull 1114 — Minerals of Colorado (the new similar
publication by Colorado collectors is apparently written but may be quite a
ways from being printed, at 1600 pages it will cost a bundle, plus photos and
color photos). Also, someone in S. Idaho reprinted a few old special papers,
all I recall is the one on platinum prospecting and mining.
Maybe we could convince Newt to dissolve Congress and save us BILLIONS!
Lanny
Hi, Lanny
> But, don't be surprised if the Bur. of Mines gets greatly trimmed or killed.
> As far as their data being put to good use and better products by private
> enterprise, I personally know of no examples.
Well, how about this? It's been a few years but William J Kroll and associates
of the Albany Research Center of the Bureau developed a process for extracting
ductile zirconium, pioneering a multi-million (maybe billion?) rare metals
industry there. The city fathers back when the Gov'mnt was looking for a site
for the center had to build a bonfire on the RR tracks to stop the train and
convince them to look at the site. BTW, this was the site of the old Albany
College that had moved to Portland and renamed to Lewis and Clark College in
1942. Now you know one example. <g> I agree with you in principle though – I
get much more personally from the USGS.
> –Socialist Valley! What goes on in that part of Oregon?
Based on a cursory look at the map, I'd say not a lot outside of logging,
quarrying and four-wheeling/hunting. <g> Oh – yeah, there are a few orchards
(Xmas tree farms?) at the South end.
> Yeah, the gif should show some nice orange stilbite, white/clear quartz and
> black background. hope it worked out that way.
Yup.
Regards, Guy
Guy,
"logging, quarrying…" Hmm, That reads more like Capitalist Valley than
Socialist Valley.
>Well, how about this? It's been a few years but William J Kroll and associates
of the Albany Research Center of the Bureau developed a process for extracting
ductile zirconium, pioneering a multi-million (maybe billion?) rare metals
industry there…"
Either I don't understand your example or you misunderstood my statement. What
I meant didn't refer to reasearch. Definitely the Bur. of Mines has done a lot
of reasearch in metallurgy and other things related to mining that have
resulted in processes that have been put to good use by private enterprise.
Likewise the Bu of Mines and USGS have done a lot of field research in finding
metal anomalies, mapping geology, etc. that private companies have used to
assist in finding ore deposits.
What I was thinking of was the literature–there isn't a whole lot of it that I
am aware of that was either researched and published by the private sector that
is easy to locate and low priced (or free) or even Bu of Mines or USGS data
that has been compiled and or re-published by the private sector and is easily
available at a low price (or free). Sure, De Lorme probably uses USGS mapping
data (although I just checked my Idaho Atlas and couldn't find any info on
where the data came from) to create their maps, but the USGS maps are much more
important for my use, and I expect for most other geologists.
The geologic mapping data from the USGS is of great importance to education,
mining, mineral collectors, and land use. There is little or no data available
from the private sector to aid the political powers that be in matters of
environmental geology, water flow/geohydrology, and geological hazards
(earthquakes and volcanic specifically). Hopefully, this point will have some
meaning to those swinging the budget axe. It would be quite entertaining to
watch the Governors of Wash. and Ore. and mayors of Portland and Seattle for
instance, if Mt. Rainier or Mt. Hood started putting on a show and suggesting
that an eruption might be on the way. There would be zero new information to
help them decide if evacuation would be prudent. (Of course, it would be
entertaining to watch the political show even if they did have current data
from the USGS!)
Lanny
Hi, Lanny
> Either I don't understand your example or you misunderstood my statement.
I guess I missed your original point – yes I would have to agree that the B of
M make lousey publishers. At least from the public's standpoint. I haven't a
clue what might be available to industry insiders.
> Hmm, That reads more like Capitalist Valley than Socialist Valley.
That was the feeling I got from looking at the map. <g>
Just wrote a check to Jon for the new book – ordered two more copies. I hope
they arrive in time to make stocking stuffers…
Regards, Guy
Guy,
Still think you need to sneak out between rain storms and put that new book of
Jon's to good use.
Lanny
> Still think you need to sneak out between rain storms …
Starting this week it's been snow storms. <sigh> At least the brown Bronco
does OK in the snow – when I remember to lock the hubs! Honest – I thought I
had done that last week to circulate the lubricants, but I must have unlocked
them again. Talk about a red face….
Cheers, Guy
Hi, Lanny–
Simply the fact that DeLorme maps are on CD in ordinary stores makes them a
vast improvement over the USGS data they are based on, from the viewpoint of
who they are aimed at, computer-age drivers. The market for full-detail topo
quad maps on CD should be growing fast enough (since it includes general
hikers) that these will soon appear (if they have not already) from private
enterprises.
Geological maps, on the other hand… They would be immensely more valuable as
vector graphics on CD with links available for GPS systems and other kinds of
software (remember that "wish list" database of sites with coordinates that
would link to the map?), but I do not know if there is enough of a market for
this to happen any time soon.
I suspect you regard the USGS as immune to privatization because of the value
of its contributions to society. But to determine its fate, you need to count
votes and perceptions, not just reasons. Lots of Congresspeople must be
figuring that the last election means there are lots of votes for cutting
things in general, and they will further figure that more of those votes would
be lost by cutting welfare (for example) than by cutting the USGS. They may
figure the typical voter will say "Look, they are cutting something (the USGS,
whatever that is)!" and may never recognize any troubles that may arise as
being due to that cut.
When the leadership of the majority party specifically mentions the USGS, I
figure one should prepare for the possibility (I see no certainty here) it will
be jettisoned (cuts would be a more typical Congressional answer, but Congress
has been shaken up lately).
Ask-a-geologist is a good example of how the USGS can make itself better
appreciated by that average voter. If it published and _marketed_ topo quads
on CD in a form that interfaced well with popular software, in a
reachably-priced all-U.S. set (I would prefer not to have to deal with one
expensive state CD here, another next time, another the time after that…), it
would go a longer way to getting the USGS noticed where it counts with
Congresspeople. I emphasize marketing because fewer people will pay attention
to it if they do not know it is there, have to search too hard to find it, take
too long to download it, or whatever.
–Doug
If you want "average voter appeal," I don't think topo maps are high on their
list of wants. I don't think most people coul identify a topo map as a topo
map if it were sitting on the table in front of them.
An electronic topo map is even more obscure. As for a product with topo maps
on CD, I'd venture that topo maps are much more dense than the De Lorme-style
road maps. I believe these DeLorme maps are derived from "DLG" digital line
graph data, also from the USGS, although they may include some topo map info,
too. It may be tough to stick more than a few states in 1:150L topo form on a
single CD. CDROMs may hold four times as much info in a few years, though,
which would change the situation.
Hi, John
> I don't think most people could identify a topo map as a topo map if it were
> sitting on the table in front of them.
You're probably right, I've been trying to do something about that at work.
I've had a 7.5 minute quad of the local area hanging on the the wall of my
cube at work for several months now. It's a kick to have a co-worker wander by
and stop and ask how to get to, oh say, the frozen food warehouse – "It's this
purple square back here. The front door to the office is in this corner."
I'm lucky that that quad was updated in '93. <G>
Regards, Guy
Hi, John–
I was thinking topo maps are _relatively_ wide in appeal, compared to, say,
geological maps. Hikers may not be a majority, but are a large enough group to
rate attention of the CD map sellers after they have handled the drivers.
Hikers who use CDs must be a small group as yet, but must be a very
fast-growing group. The market for CDs in general seems to be exploding, and
sellers who wait for sufficient numbers of customers to be CD-ready will be too
late when competitors can so easily see it in advance.
I read that Encyclopedia Britannica got itself in financial hot water because
they were slow making the turn into CDs – as best I remember, this was before I
was aware that CDs had "arrived", before they suddenly materialized in a big
rack of their own at Sam's Club.
If having E-maps with detailed elevation info can help a GPS-using program to
refine its position estimates (a wild guess), that kind of info could even
become useful to everyone (though they may not know it is in there).
–Doug
Although the DLG maps (railroad, sewer, roads, etc.) are in electronic form,
and DEM are in digital form, I don't think the USGS has ever had the time,
means or computing power necessary to put topo maps into electronic form. I'm
sure there would be a lot of interesting ways to integrate their data. That's
what the entire GIS industry is trying to do. I'd love to have a way to overlay
topo, roads, and bedrock. How about a rendered 3D image of your surroundings,
with the hillside shown as the underlying bedrock, labeled with the local
geologic timetable? 🙂
Hi, John
> How about a rendered 3D image of your surroundings, with the hillside shown
> as the underlying bedrock, labeled with the local geologic timetable? 🙂
Sounds like a great environment for a flight simulator program. <G>
Regards, Guy
Hi, John–
I do indeed look forward to the day when one can look at a 3-D image, rotated
at will, clicking the roads on and off, the buildings, names, and watercourses
likewise, switching between surface, infrared, ultraviolet, and geological
bedrock views… If there were no other customers, it would be a great
Christmas present for the kids.
–Doug
Doug,
De Lorme's maps on CD may be a vast improvment over the useability of the the
USGS raw data, but De Lorme's maps on CD are not really exciting and useable. A
fold up standard highway map is as useable and may have more data (don't know
haven't seen any of the CD maps). My thoughts of useability of USGS data was of
those maps that are really specifica and useable–the 7.5 min topoa, geologic
maps, and 1:100,000 scale maps. Who else covers the US (and some of the rest of
the world) with such things? Who else takes any USGS data and publishes it in a
better more useable format than the GS?
Congress could possibly cut USGS funds with the idea of getting rid of the
"useless" work that helps with general geologica studies and ore deposits.
Afterall, what does this country need with mineral production? Apparently none
of VP Gore's friends use minerals/metals.
But, who is going to do the geologic hazard studies which are becoming much
more important to local land use planning these days? Who is going to do the
earthquake studies? Who is going to do the volcanic hazard studies? These are
things that are very much on the minds of major political leaders in cities and
states.
Remember, all things mentioned at this stage of the game for budget cuts are
just ideas–many proposals are made before the individual proposing such and
such has really studied the worth of an agency.
Also contrary to your apparent feelings–I still find paper copies of maps as
most useful. I do not care to read most of my books or maps on a computer or
carry a laptop into the field with me (especially hiking/backpacking). The data
on CD would be great, but if I had a choice of one only, it would be paper
maps.
Lanny
Lanny,
>> De Lorme's maps on CD may be a vast improvment over the useability of the
the USGS raw data, but De Lorme's maps on CD are not really exciting and
useable. A fold up standard highway map is as useable and may have more data
(don't know haven't seen any of the CD maps). <<
I have to disagree. De Lorme's Street Atlas contains everything you find in
the typical road atlas, plus a level of detail in cities, towns, etc. that you
only get in local road maps. All on >one< CD-ROM. And continuous, so you can
start with a map of the whole United States and zoom in step by step until
you're at the city-street level. And of course it has the search capabilities
you would expect: find any street, anywhere in its database. No hunting for
the right maps, no shuffling around, no trying to decipher the printed map's
street guide.
Jon W.
Hi, Jon
> I have to disagree. De Lorme's Street Atlas contains everything you find in
> the typical road atlas, plus a level of detail in cities, towns, etc. that
> you only get in local road maps. All on >one< CD-ROM.
PMJI, that's great if you are using it in the city, but I like to bang around
out in the boondocks on old logging roads. I can't speak for Lanny, but I
think I know him well enough to say that this is where he's coming from. If he
can't find an obscure quarry on some remote mountain top with it, then the
CD-ROM is of limited use to him. A lot of the time he's on foot when he needs
the map – therefore his preference for paper maps. (Lanny – I'm sure you'll
correct me here if I'm wrong or left out anything…)
Personally I find that the 7.5 minute USGS quads work best in the boondocks,
but the DeLorme CD-ROM is next only to a CD reader on my priority list. <g>
Best, Guy
PS: If you are interested in a _major_ digression to the above, I can tell you
where the term "boondocks" came from. The actual site is about 35 miles South
of my house. <G>
Guy,
You said it well. But there is more than that as far as which type of map is
convenient. (I think I would rather pass someone on the highway reading a paper
map as he was driving than trying to locate what he needs on his laptop
screen!)
Please explain the "boondocks" origin. I was sure it was a place 15 miles south
of Olympia, WA (next to my childhood home amongst the beaver ponds), or just
about any part of 80% of Idaho.
Lanny
Jon,
Of course its greatest featuares is that it covers the entire US. (How much
detail does it have outside of cities?) Thus it can provide the map for any
question I may have about some place I don't normally have highway/street maps
of.
It would be of great help, for instance if I wanted to make an unexpected trip
to Seattle which I haven't been to in a decade or more, so I could just print
out a map of the area I need to know the streets on and not have to look for a
street map after I get there.
But in general, I think a regular highway map is still better to sit in your
chair and plan a trip with. And most importantly–their CD-ROM is totally
useless when I walk away from the computer. And even if I had a laptop with a
portable CD-ROM drive, it wouldn't be the most convenient way to look at a map
while traveling.
Lanny
Hi, Lanny–
In addition to Jon's remarks on the usefulness of CD maps, someone mentioned
there is already the power to go straight to the position in the map indicated
by a GPS card in the computer. That is new enough that it likely costs a lot,
but check back in a year or two…
I remember planning my route to OK city from CA – since then I saw how
disgustingly easy it was to choose the route and get better and easier
estimates of travel times from a software-with-map package a friend had. The
program was not smart about avoiding grades for a loaded rental truck, but it
will be that smart soon enough if not already.
Electronic copies also have off-the-wall uses no one has even thought of yet.
If you suddenly need to know how many "Main Street"s there are in California,
or some equally unexpected (and hopefully more useful) bit of info, there may
be a way. If you remember the ending of a street name instead of its
beginning, you would have to play "where's Waldo" with a paper map, but
electronic version would make it easy to find.
–Doug
Doug,
I concede most of what you say. Especially the search and count capability
(maybe one could win a bet or game show prize) for finding all the cities named
"Coeur d'Alene" (That particular one is probably easy without it though!).
Although such capability is not exactly what most of us want maps for.
After a couple more evolutions of De Lorme's map, and they improve the
appearance of the maps, fill in most of the gaps and errors, then it will look
very attractive.
But, all in all, most of the time I use a map is for the detail in the wild,
not to get down the highway. So, until someone makes all the topo maps, BLM
maps, and even FS maps available on CD-ROM, such things as "Street Atlas USA"
are of minor need.
Lanny
Hi, Lanny–
That capability to find placenames of unknown locality can be quite
significant to a mineral collector – I know from books that fluorescent talc,
tremolite, anthophyllite, and tirodite are mined in "Balmat, NY" and
"Talcville, NY", but cannot find their precise locations in my world atlas. Is
it near that Vermont talc belt mentioned here recently, I wonder? I suspect
DeLorme would give me an immediate answer without my having to order a map or
keep a great pile of state maps ("Oops, I must have taken out the NY map and
left it somewhere"), allowing me to order a topo map further in advance of a
trip thereabouts (with a wide collection of topos on CD, I could be ready
map-wise for a trip in minutes instead of days or weeks). And when I have a
placename without even a state on a specimen, a comprehensive E-map collection
would be so much easier to search.
When I went to seek ferrierite with Rod a couple of months ago, we went to the
new site and collected, and then tried to find the old site in the dark – the
construction was making trouble for Rod's memory, so I checked him by cranking
up my laptop and finding an old message from this forum in which he gave
directions to Nathan. Had it been paper, I would have left it in OK; this trip
was semi-improvised. We still did not find it, but at least we had a better
chance. With CDs and ever-larger hard disks, I should be able to bring whole
file cabinets of info with me anywhere I might go. Don't you ever wish you had
thought to bring a certain map with you somewhere? E-maps allow you to bring a
ton of maps with one decision. If I remember my laptop, I have remembered to
bring every E-document I have, more or less. But if I have it only on paper, I
must think of each individual piece of paper I might need, relying on my
fallible foresight in choosing them.
–Doug
Doug:
The usgs has been better than most agencies in making its materials widely
available, including in electronic formats. By comparison, agencies like the
fair-haired EPA, and the scatter-brained OSHA, with their engorged budgets,
have the money for LOTS of print copies of books, pamplets, etc. The feds
could save lots of money, in lots of agencies, if they made documents available
only electronically, and not in print.
It is remarkable how some private concerns have gotten copyright protection
for their "redoing" of public domain govt. materials. The best example of
monopolistic, predatory market behavior is the West Publishing Co. West takes
public domain judicial opinions, written by judges (and their lawclerks), who
are on the public payroll, puts in paragraph headers (which can sometimes be of
help in electronic db searches of all opinions), and then copyrights its own
format and pagination of the Opinions! West has held on to this stranglehold
on the legal profession and the public for a century. The advent of electronic
mail and publishing is a major threat to West because the opinions do not need
to be published in a paginated book form. They can be uploaded to a WWW site
or whatnot, and every decade's worth can be released as a CDROM. As so often
happens, technology renders monopolies worthless, especially because monopolies
become fat and happy, and rarely have the impetus to anticipate market change.
I suppose I am fairly sanguine about the continued availability of usgs
workproduct in an inexpensive form, via new modes of technology.
On the database front, is there any word of Lanny's dbase coming out? Now
that Idaho is back in the ice age? Is there any way for us to plan and execute
a mineral dbase online here? If we defined the fields, I would volunteer for
some discrete species, say zeolites and U-Th minerals, to input.
Nathan
Having produced three CDROM products myself, I can assure you that any
publishing venture is a lot of work. I'd say they've got a lot of work
invested in a century of opinions and one-paragraph abstracts. Even collecting
all those opinions would be a lot of work. I doubt they were available in
electronic form until very recently, which means a lot of re-typing. Not to
mention the cost of those law clerks to write summarizing paragraphs. 🙂
Hey, "public domain" means anyone can step forward and do anything with it,
particularly add value and re-sell it. So why don't they have any competition?
John,
West, for one, did not have competitors until recently with the advent of
online access to courts and their opinions. Now, many states that had given
West the monopoly to publish their state opinions, will be embarking on various
forms of electronic bulletin boards to publish the judicial decisions. These
states even want to change the official citation styles to take away the West
publication citation as the "official" citation in briefs to be submitted to
the courts.
As for the USGS, it has already exceeded what has been done by other agencies
of the fed. govt., and it can probably dodge the tax cutting bullet by ceasing
print publication of many of its bulletins, professional papers, etc., and
making them soley available electronically.
Nathan
Nathan,
Before the USGS data is made available electronically only, it would be very
helpful if "the rest of us" could gain access to it at a connect speed that was
faster than glacial. Right now, I could drive to Spokane, find a parking space,
walk a few blocks to the USGS office, find a paper copy of what I want, pay for
it, hike back to my truck, and drive home, before any of their bulletins could
be downloaded and saved on my harddisk. (Perhaps I could even call them on the
telephone, give them my credit card number, and have it delivered by snail mail
before the download was compelted!)
If West's publishing is such a stranglehold, why doesn't some other company
step in and do a similar job?
As far as my mineral database goes–it is coming out, soon. I am currently
giving it the final edit with some wonderful assistance from Doug. I sent him a
short version of it (common minerals only) so he could review the format and
inform me of problems in formatting it for DOS/Windows from my Mac. Currently,
I have several small editing chores to perform in reformatting the entire
database to the general layout of what Doug suggested a few months ago to make
it more useful for searches. Also, I didn't work on it during much of 1992 and
1993, so I have to go through the American Mineralogist and other publichations
to add the new minerals from that period.
Yes, Idaho is in a new ice age, and at times I feel like hibernating so spring
will hurry (I WANT TO GO MINERAL COLLECTING/HIKING/CAMPING IN THE
MOUNTAINS!!!), but I am working on the database nearly every day (several hours
today). Considering the fact that it represents many hundreds of hours of work,
it won't be free online, but will be "low priced." Presently, I am trying to
find out about all the others availalbe (which so far are priced in the
'hundreds of dollars' or are only basic with not much more than mineral name
and formula) to help in determining the price and final decision on how to make
it available. At this moment, I expect the price to be $30-50 and at first sell
it as raw data only to put into your own database (or even use in your word
processor for just simple searches), then later provide it with a front end
from a runtime version of Cause and Effect or FoxPro. Currently, the raw data
for more than 3,400 minerals is nearly a megabyte, it includes mineral,
formula, system, group, colors, luster, opacity, streak, hardness (L-H),
density (L-H), number of cleavages, cleavage data, fracture, habit and info
(series, morphs, mag., fl, etc.).
Lanny
Hi Lanny,
Thanks for the update on the dbase. I, for one, am eagerly looking forward
to a product in that price range. I assume that Doug is helping you put the
files in a form that can be imported into any of the major data bases. I had
better learn how to use a database soon.
West Publishing keeps its stranglehold by copyrighting not the judicial
opinion, which as a govt. creation can't be copyrighted, but rather the headers
and especially the pagination! When state and federal legislatures designate
West as the official reporter, then West gains a tremendous market advantage
because anyone writing a brief must have a copy of the West official version to
give the court the proper citation. If you use a download from a court bulletin
board, then you'll have the text but not the pagination.
The advent of these court bulletin boards has been a move to do away with the
official citation, and perhaps use numbered paragraphs, or something, in the
electronic format. I think that these technological developments will
ultimately break the West stranglehold and its monopolistic pricing.
I hear you re download speed. I do have a local 9600 node for compuserve,
but I fret that I can't get to a 14.4k without a serious toll call. That would
be 50% faster at the same cost through CIS. Delphi has just opened a 9600 node
in my toll-free area so I can now go web cruising at a decent speed, picking up
big files as I go, without too much waiting.
BTW, my article on the fluorescent chabazites is essentially done. If I get
a chance, I'd like to perhaps amplify a point or two, but if you need to "set
type" and you're at your deadline, then go ahead and print.
Nathan
Nathan,
Yeah, if the courts use the West publications as "official records" then it
does create a problem. It will be interesting to see how these things change
with more electroinic storage and transmittal.
You have a few more days on the chabazite. If you could get any changes to me
by the 10th, then I will be able to use them.
Thanks.
Lanny
Hi, Nathan–
Given a choice, I would rather have most things in electronic form than
printed (although often I want both), but most people still do not (check back
in a few years and get a different answer). With the sound of budget knives
being sharpened so loud in the background, agencies that wish to ingratiate
themselves with the voters will have to stick to print for the more widely
interesting things.
But for the more esoteric information, you are quite right – electronic
publishing is the way to go. It is so much cheaper that they should be able to
afford fast modems and keep Lanny happier.
As for collaborating on a database, it would be awfully hard to keep it as
consistent as a single author can do, and consistency improves its value. Since
Lanny is talking of producing his as a fairly complete and cheap database for
amateurs, I tend to favor just waiting for that one. Unfortunately, the sources
are not all that consistent.
–Doug
USGS prices will probably go up substantially sooner or later, because
eventually we'll have to deal with the fiscal mess that self designated
"conservatives" created in the 1980s. And which Newt and his buddies are
talking about exacerbating.
Privatization is a possiblity and it's a safe bet that (barring a real
breakthru in production costs brought about by digital technology) that'll be
the end of most USGS products since every rise in prices cuts the number of
products that people will buy, which spreads the overhead over a smaller base,
which requires more price increases, which …
Not a pretty picture, but it's what we can expect no matter who wins the next
election in the US. We should all take advantage of the USGS and similar
government services while they are still bargain priced. There's a good chance
that 20 years from now the products either won't exist or will be a lot more
expensive.
I'm not so pessimistic. I don't vote Republican, either. 🙂 But I can't help
but think that privatization will force a company to be *profitable*, as
opposed to a government agency, which has very few motivations to serve the
public's desires. After all, the USGS still has plenty of data you can only get
on *mag tape*. I don't know anyone who owns a reel tape drive on their PC.
Any private company with half-and-ounce of smarts would've moved all that data
to CDROM simply for internal archives, if not for mass distribution. As for
the old-fashioned paper map business, I'd think they'd streamline operations as
profits would dictate, which might mean spinning it off to other companies with
better ideas or better funding. De Lorme makes paper maps, too, they have a
great line of gazette-sized 1:150,000 state maps. And what's wrong with making
the more obscure maps more expensive, such as those of interest only to
commercial mining companies or timber companies?
How do you make your wishes known to the USGS now? Write your Congress-critter?
Hi, Don–
If the USGS goes private, I expect that some of its products will become more
expensive or unavailable, but I also expect many to remain on the market
(whether from a private USGS or someone else), and some to even be improved and
become cheaper.
The price does not have to go up for a popular item – a private company may
produce some products more cheaply, and market them better, allowing the price
to drop. I am fairly confident topo maps would be in this class, given that
lots of people have use for them. The street info of those maps is clearly in
that class; DeLorme is already selling them despite having a subsidized
competitor (the USGS).
But for the most part, there is no way to know which products would go that way
and which the other way.
What I most fear in a USGS privatization is that more geological info would
become trade secrets. If oil and mining companies are not getting geological
info from a public USGS (I am talking about previously-unknown info, not what
it currently public info), they will more often be finding it out themselves,
but not inclined to sell that info in many cases because competitors might use
it. A privatized USGS or a competitor might find the info and offer it to sale
to those oil and mining companies, but the customers would be willing to pay
high prices only if it is not being sold at low prices to the public, and the
highest prices if it is an "exclusive".
–Doug
Aren't private companies *already* taking raw USGS data, adding their own
research or computations, and finding new deposits? I presume they don't tell
their competitors about it. If the USGS is actually in the business of
uncovering new deposits and handing them out to the big mining companies at the
usual discounted "public land" prices, then I wish they'd get out of that
business. 🙂
Hi, John–
I also would prefer not to see the USGS seeking new deposits of commercial
ores or whatever. My remarks about too much information possibly becoming
trade secrets if the USGS is privatized were mainly concerned with "big
picture" information that is highly useful to non-competitors. Studying the
big picture, the USGS likely will stumble across some goodies unavoidably, but
my first guess is they should not be actively seeking those goodies.
–Doug
Doug and John,
The USGS does a lot of field work/research which includes making a
determination on a general scale of the mineral evaluation–generally by
sampling mines and prospects, other known mineral occurrences, and taking a lot
of stream sediment samples. They have found a lot of anomalies and do "give"
the information away to private enterprise–that is they publish it in their
open file reports (can be viewed free of charge) and in the many bulletins,
etc. that one can purchase at a low price.
They don't go out looking for ore deposits, but only in making a general
assessment of an area to aid in land management. They specifically are required
(along with the Bu of Mines) to evaluate areas being studied for Wilderness
withdrawal and publish reports on every such area. Unfortunately, those gung ho
withdrawal happy people generally convince congress to ignore all mineral
potential areas and withdraw them inside the Wilderness.
As far as privatizing the USGS, it can't be done. Private enterprise could not
afford to do the research, except for mining companies, which of course don't
care to share most of what knowledge they gain. About all that could be
privatized would be the publishing/republishing of information, and without the
research that would soon be old and dated. Without the USGS who is going to do
the earthquake studies, the volcano studies, other geologic hazard studies,
etc.? Not likely that private enterprise could do it in a fashion so as to be
profitable.
Lanny
Although I'd venture that the incoming Republicans have a slim chance of
privatizing the USGS, they might find strange bedfellows with the radical
environmmentalists who'd rather have it be much more expensive for mining and
fuel companies to find raw materials. The USGS is one of the ways that the
government (well, all of us) has subsidized the mining and fuel companies.
Exactly why should we subsidize their exploration, as opposed to all other US
industry?
Personally, I try to be even-handed when it comes to tax cuts. Although I get
misty-eyed at shuttle launches, deep in my heart and mind I know that the
government's sponsorship and restrictions on space exploration are wrong.
Similarly, although I've enjoyed and benefited from topo maps, I think it's a
little unfair that the many have sponsored the enjoyment and commercial
ventures of the few.
>>>Without the USGS who is going to do the earthquake studies, the volcano
studies, other geologic hazard studies, etc.?
The answer of course is, no one. But my experience has been that reality has
no power to influence political fanatics of any persuasion. I suppose that all
those fuzzy minded liberals in Germany and Japan will handle the first two —
at least as far as basic research goes, and that no one will do the third.
Ahem!
"The Right Honorable" Gingrich is on the net. You can find his address via
"congress@hr.house.gov". Maybe if we all right him and tell him we're at
school and we're praying to keep ask-a-geologist.