#IPAS U DON'T need!
118 messages in this thread
I've noticed that a good many well-known IPAS routines actually don't do
anything that you can't do without them — sometimes easier and better without
them! One of these is still included with 3DSr"4" even though it became totally
obsolete with 3DSr3, and others are being marketed by major IPAS distributors!
VARY.SXP — totally useless, now that we have Material Morphing and separate
Shininess and Specular Maps. Even in r2 you could do most of what VARY did by
using animated maps. The main reason for VARY was that it could animate the
shininess of an object in r2 so that you can have objects completely fade out
including their specular highlights. But since r3 added Shininess Mapping, even
THAT can now be handled by animated mapping! And what with Material Morph, you
don't even have to resort to animated maps! Of course, Material Morph DOES
require duplicating the objects that use it so that your vertex and face counts
are increased, but the main cost here is in .3DS and .PRJ file size and some
RAM usage. Since morph targets are usually Hidden, they don't directly take
part in Renders and so shouldn't slow them down except by taking up memory and
thus causing swapping to happen before it otherwise would. Still, though, I
can't think of ANY effect that would REQUIRE VARY.SXP. Can you?
All but one of Greg Pyros's TRANSITION IPAS routines (Page Flip, Rotate,
Squash, and Quattro) can be easily done by mapping video or animations to
screen-sized rectangles in 3DS and then animating the rectangles (or, in the
case of Quattro, Instancing them — and unlike Quattro, you could also just
have four rectangles each with a DIFFERENT video or animation on it!). Learning
this technique gives you FAR more flexibility than these routines can give you!
Only Swirl of that entire package does something that you couldn't EASILY do
with this technique! And even it could be simulated by using a dense flat Grid
instead of a rectangle and doing morphs with the morph targets being made by
rotatiing interior vertices of the grid, but that's not what I call "easy."
Swirl does therefore have its uses, but the rest of the package is worthless.
Schrieber's PYTHON.PXP is probably the worst offender of the lot. It has
been hyped many times here as being this great Must-Have solution for things
such as animated signatures, liquid flowing through pipes, etc. But it only
works on lofted objects and then only along the Loft Path. Well, you know what?
So do Lofted Mapping Coordinates! A simple left/right black & white animated
wipe .FLiC such as Animator Pro can easily spit out with its JOIN feature
applied as an Opacity or Self-Illumination Map or any sort of Mask to a lofted
object with lofted mapping can do ANY effect that I can imagine that PYTHON can
do. And a lot cheaper, too — not just in terms of the cost of the IPAS itself,
but in terms of scene complexity and rendering time! You see, PYTHON works by
making morph targets with earlier targets having more and more of the vertices
of the object "squashed back" along the Lofting path toward the beginning, so
that as you Morph the object it seems to stretch out and appear following its
lofting path. But a simple animated wipe Opacity map applied to an object
lofted with Mapping Coordinates can do the same thing! Did you see the latest
SIGgraph Demo Reel? Our animation with the Earth-like bowling ball in space
used this technique to do the "World's Largest League" ribbon that appeared —
yet I bet many of you thought it was done with PYTHON! And using maps can do
things that PYTHON just can't do, such as having ribbon ends that are cut off
at opposing angles (we just did THAT for the Louisiana Public Broadcasting's
20th Anniversary)! Can anyone describe an effect that PYTHON can do that
animated maps could not? I've tried and I can't think of a single one.
I think in all honesty that the Pyros Partnership and Schrieber (or Imagine
or 4DVision or whatever they're calling themselves now) should either
demonstrate uses for the products mentioned above that can't feasibly be done
without them, or pull them from the market and offer a credit towards the
purchase of any of their other products or packages to registered owners of the
Transition Effects or Imagine Python, respectively. As for ADesk/Yost and
VARY.SXP, well, that was just an example .SXP anyway that came with the
program. Those of you who develop IPASes for a living, THINK before going
through all the trouble of coding them: "Does this actually do something USEFUL
that we CAN'T FEASIBLY DO without it?" I mean, the writer of Python went to a
lot of trouble, and for what? All because s/he apparently forgot about lofted
mapping coordinates!
Anyone have any other candidates for my Useless IPASes list? 🙂
> A simple left/right black & white animated wipe .FLiC such as Animator Pro
can easily spit out with its >JOIN feature applied as an Opacity or
Self-Illumination Map or any sort of Mask to a lofted object with >lofted
mapping can do ANY effect that I can imagine that PYTHON can do
Boy, I sure hate to be in this position of defending an IPAS I don't have (or
intend to buy), but as one who has extensively worked with the opacity
workaround for PYTHON, I can tell you it will NOT do what PYTHON says it will
do.
I have the complete writeup as to why opacity mapping bugs prevent it from
being used as advertised (in other words, it *should* work as you describe)
on-line here in one of the sections — search for SPOOL.ZIP and see — but the
bottom line is that the end of the opacity map is always solid, spoiling the
illusion, and it doesn't work properly with a black background (or is it a
solid background — I forget). There are workarounds, but they are not
elegant, and I suspect that if I really needed the effect I'd go ahead and buy
PYTHON.
Just to keep the record straight…
You know, M&Ms, that some people actually like and still use some of the
routines that you don't happen to find uses for anymore!
So just because you personally don't use the routines, doesn't mean that there
aren't people out there who haven't upgraded, or for some reason find that the
routines easily do some effects easily that might take more passes to complete.
Transitions in VP can be used in one pass, try that with a rendered scene! Not
everyone has the disk space or the inclination to do things the way you do.
Greg Pyros
In their glory days, the band Van Halen didn't allow ANY brown M&Ms in their
dressing room!
Maybe they had a good idea…<g>
-Alan
In their "glory days" Led Zeppelin was the greatest rock band ever. Now that I
am burned out on Stairway to Heaven and can't listen to that album anymore
should I be able to take it back and trade it in on a brand new one?
>> Van Halen didn't allow <<
Laughing out loud…
<<Van Halen didn't allow ANY brown M&Ms>>
FOFL!!
Alan:
>> In their glory days, the band Van Halen didn't allow ANY brown M&Ms
>> in their dressing room!
>> Maybe they had a good idea…<g>
Don't tempt me! :^)
Greg Pyros
>>In their glory days, the band Van Halen didn't allow ANY brown M&Ms in their
dressing room!<<
Just had to share another dressing room oddity required on Janet Jacksons
Rider.
"Promoter to provide new, unused, wrapped in original paper toilet seat for JJ
main dressing room."
The big dilemma came when the promoter was doing two consecutive shows:
Would it be OK to just FedEX the new toilet seat from the previous show? After
all, no one else used it. He had to buy another.
You gotta love it!
Mike
He-he…
Maybe the seat was, er, un-FedEx-able after JJ used it….
-Alan
un-FedEx-able after JJused it!!!!! PM[buttting]I (so to speak). Alan!!!
<rofl><THUD> you have clearly left the realm of VIRTUAL REality. still laughing
sheeeeeeeesh Jeffrey
Sheesh, Jeffrey, pick yourself up!<g>
Sometimes I really wonder about these "stars"…
-Alan
I find it difficult to send any message to somebody who won't give their name
for no sensible reason (sysop: dont' we have a forum rule against that). But, I
thought I would reply to one thing:
>> Still, though, I can't think of ANY effect that would REQUIRE VARY.SXP. Can
you? <<
Of course I can.
yes, you can use animated mapping instead but the speed and flexibility that
vary.sxp allows makes it invaluable especially as you can't morph materials on
.axp's like particle systems. I used it in the movie "Virtuosity" where it
would have been extremely tedious to create all the different animated maps I
needed – about 12 different ones – for controlling fades on particle systems.
The speed in which I could just drag and drop vary.sxp into a material slot
(particularly opacity and mask slots) and type in the start and end frame
simply makes it peerless in this regard. Bottom line: it can be a huge
timesaver and I wouldn't want to do without it.
Martin –
There are so few folks here not using their real name that the rule doesn't get
pushed too hard. There are a few that hide behind company names but you folks
all seem to know each other and it doesn't usually take long to figure out
who's who.
One of the absolute best things about this forum is the honest exchange of
ideas and information – pro and con. It usually doesn't take too long for
someone way off the edge to get hauled back in – or go away. Even the debates
that heat up normally stay within civil bounds for the most part.
One day I want to sit behind a master of 3DS and watch them work. You folks
constantly amaze me.
Anne
Anne,
>> There are so few folks here not using their real name that the rule doesn't
get pushed too hard. <<
really? Uh-oh, that's scary. Then there's all the lurkers who never post …
>> One of the absolute best things about this forum is the honest exchange of
ideas and information – pro and con. <<
very true. I still get as much as I give, even after 4+ years active on this
forum 🙂
You wouldn't the Beards and glasses would put you of, there is nothing worse
than a 3D's backseat driver LOL
Matt talking about Greg W! 🙂
Martin:
M&M over a year ago was known by the name Marion K. Marks. I'd use that name
for replies.
– Bob Ritger
Bob,
>> M&M over a year ago was known by the name Marion K. Marks. I'd use that
name for replies. <<
yes, I know. This charade has been going on for years, but I believe the person
doing the messages is not Marion Marks but an employee of that company who is a
tech.
The guy _sometimes_ makes some good points, but does it in such an abrasive way
that it is often somewhat offensive. Anyway, caveat emptor …. the person who
buys routines should do some research before they plonk down their hard-earned
dollars and, if possible, get a reasonable time-frame money-back guarantee.
Martin:
>> but I believe the person doing the messages is not Marion Marks but an
employee of that company who is a tech. <<
I know that's true but I offered the only name I have seen attached to the
account number.
>> The guy _sometimes_ makes some good points, but does it in such an abrasive
way that it is often somewhat offensive. <<
Yes, and it completely undermines any good messages.
– Bob Ritger
Martin –
I changed the Forum Announcement and News Flash to request members use a first
and last name as their Fm: name and if a company name is used to sign the
message with a first/last name. Common courtesy request.
Anne
Anne,
>> I changed the Forum Announcement and News Flash to request members use a
first and last name as their Fm: name and if a company name <<
good idea.
"Will the real Bill Gates please stand up…." <G>
Ooh ho.. Ok, in that case, my name is actually Dorothy and I don't exist. I'm
just a figure of your imagination…
.. twilight zone sound track…
Geeez, if you are Dorothy and a figment of Anne Brown's imagination, then who
is Gus Grubba whose name continually pops up on my montior when running certain
.EXEs????
>I used it in the movie "Virtuosity" where it would have been extremely tedious
to create all the different animated maps I needed<
I was watching PBS's Sneak Previews and they had a special on cyber themed
movies. One guy thought the one good thing about Virtuosity was the special
effects, he was very enthusiastic about them, he said a tape of just the
effects would be great.
Tim,
>> Virtuosity was the special effects, he was very enthusiastic about them, he
said a tape of just the effects would be great. <<
I'm glad he liked them. When it comes out on laser disk, I'll be in line for a
copy for posterity. It won't be the last movie I work on, though (hopefully).
Ae there any stills from the movie here?, being from the UK, Laser Disk is
VERY expensive LOL,
I can afford Cis though!
Matt:)
Greg,
>> Ae there any stills from the movie here?, being from the UK, Laser Disk is
VERY expensive LOL, <<
no, fraid not. Trying to getting permission from Paramount for anything is a
big headache. We're still trying to get our scenes from the film with final
audio so we can put it on our demo reel (and let the other artists,
contributors have it too). I've toyed with the idea of showing some models I
used – might still do it.
Please give me a shout when you have something, I'd love to see it, I used
to make Film Trailer for a living so I can understand Film companie mentality,
it take 7 people just to decide on how to answer the phone :), and 1000's to
cahnge a light bulb LOL
Matt:)
Greg,
>> Please give me a shout when you have something <<
I'm sure Anne (sysop) will announce any uploads, usually in the index and info
section.
PMJI, Greg, but the 7 people just to decide on how to answer the phone and
1000's to change a light bulb is so true. Big huge budgets making films the say
so little. Gad! Don't forget the teams of lawyers dedicated to making sure that
nobody breaks confi/non-disclosure agreements. I've just come out of about 3
years of iron-clad non-disclosures and feel sort of like they *REALLY MEANT IT*
Jeffrey
Y'know I've always assumed that the mystery person at M&M was male, from the
general tone of voice. But I just noticed that these self-important,
off-target,"Chicken Little-ish" rants only occur at regular, longish
intervals…
maybe its a bad case of _PMT_.
keep taking the IPAS
Grahame
Grahame,
>> Y'know I've always assumed that the mystery person at M&M was male <<
I was thinking the same think myself recently. This person could be female, but
not really for the same reason as you thought so 🙂
G
<<<<<< Y'know I've always assumed that the mystery person at M&M was male,
from the general tone of voice…………………..maybe its a bad
caseof_PMT_…………>>>>>>>>
Are you saying that "M&M" is a female author addicted to an oil addittive
(PMT)? You need to meet ana of Krazy Images!
First the vote, then the world conference in China, our military prep
schools and now our beloved ammedia forum…..is there an IPAS for gender
morphing? Really….what would yo' mama say!
Grahame, uh, the reason you haven't seen my posts more than once a month or
two months has nothing to do with my gender (which is male). It has to do with
the fact that until very recently (as in today as I type this) the city I live
in had no CIS node faster than 2400bps. Now that that's changed, you can
expect the frequency of messages from me to likewise change, though it may take
some time to work through the current backlog…
M&M –
If you truly are going to post more often (since you single handly talked CIS
into giving Shrevesport a faster node), I am going to insist that you sign your
messages. Companies do use their company name here as a Fm: name but that is in
the minority and those who do use a company name have the respect for others
here to sign the messages with a first and last name.
This is the last polite request. Please sign your messages so that we can all
move beyond this energy wasted in who you are and why you "cannot" sign them. I
have a lot more to do (as do all of the professional and hobby 3DSers here)
than to spend more time of what is a forum policy.
Please don't push me into the corner on this.
Anne
PMT ?, you mean Pre MAX Tension? LOL
Greg 🙂
>> Still, though, I can't think of ANY effect that would REQUIRE VARY.SXP. Can
you? <<
>>>Of course I can. Yes, you can use animated mapping instead but the speed and
flexibility that vary.sxp allows makes it invaluable especially as you can't
morph materials on <<<
Thanks for this tip on using VARY with AXPS.
My BBS gives subscribers a copyrighted program called SVARY (super VARY) that
has 10 slots for color, with adjustable hold and transition times. When people
ask why VARY is useful, I tell them that morph materials requires a copy of the
mesh for each changed material. Plus, material change keys may not all fall at
the same point. Also, with VARY in a material, face subsets can change material
within an object quite easily.
I use VARY (actually SuperVary) a lot!
Jim
Jim,
>> My BBS gives subscribers a copyrighted program called SVARY (super VARY)
that has 10 slots for color, with adjustable hold and transition times. <<
that sounds very useful. Time to get off my arse and subscribe – need to talk
the prez into coughing up some money for the subscription though.
>>that sounds very useful. Time to get off my arse and subscribe – need to talk
the prez into coughing up some money for the subscription though.<<
Well, it's relatively cheap – less than many magazine subscriptions. And thats
IPAS included! <G>
Seeing all these posts got me going on SVARY and I went and updated the manual
for it based on some of the comments. I've also uploaded a sample GIF of the
interface.
Thanks,
Jim
>> >> My BBS gives subscribers a copyrighted program called SVARY (super
>> VARY)<<
I am assuming you are talking about "The Render Plant" BBS, of which I am a
member. I DL'd SVARY and found it would be a useful tool to animate my lighting
"beams". I found a bug and was told it was to be fixed, so far no update. It is
a lot easier than morph objects though. I posted a note asking if it was fixed
but never received a reply. My original SVARY had a file date of May 1995 ish.
MS
>> It is a lot easier than morph objects though. I posted a note asking if it
was fixed but never received a reply. My original SVARY had a file date of May
1995 ish.<<
Hi Mike –
I got it fixed a while back but lost your name, so I just posted the fixed (1.1
version) of the IPAS to the BBS with a thorough description of what was fixed.
Now we have the 2.0 version available that is much improved. Sorry for not
getting the news to you on this. FYI, the bugfix came out around July, and I
just put the final 2.0 version up.
Jim
>>Sorry for not getting the news to you on this. FYI, the bugfix came out
around July, and I just put the final 2.0 version up.<<
No problem Jim. I will go get it soon. BTW, I think TRP is way cool! Keep up
the good work.
Mike
Jim,
I tried out super vary and it doesn't do what I thought it would do – unless
I'm doing something wrong. The colour seems to remain the same for the range of
frames you specify. I'd expect it to be interpolated to the next colour over
the specified range of frames. Hmmm ….
Good Morning!
Super vary is supposed to hold the color selected for the range you specify.
It interpolates between colors in the frames between the end frame of one color
and the start frame of the next color. That is, if you specify red for frame 1
to 5 and blue from frame 8 to 10 it will give you red from 1 to 5, interpolated
color in 6 and 7 and blue from 8 to 10. At least, that's the way it worked
when I sent it to Jim…..
– Audrey Peterson
Sisyphus Software
Audrey,
>> red for frame 1 to 5 and blue from frame 8 to 10 it will give you red from
1 to 5, interpolated color in 6 and 7 and blue from 8 to 10 <<
OK, great. That's what I needed to know. I apologise I just found the .txt file
as I'm typing this message that explains all this – normally I'm good at
reading the docs <sheepish g>. Thanks for the clarification.
>>I tried out super vary and it doesn't do what I thought it would do – unless
I'm doing something wrong. The colour seems to remain the same for the range of
frames you specify. I'd expect it to be interpolated to the next colour over
the specified range of frames. Hmmm …. <<
Did you read the manual that comes with it? The range of frames beside a color
is the HOLD time. The gap between the end frame for a given color and the start
frame for the next color is the TRANSITION time. This makes the IPAS even more
powerful, since you can have instantaneous color changes if you desire.
Hope this helps –
Jim
Jim,
>> Did you read the manual that comes with it? <<
sorry, I just did. I swear I looked for one the other day when I was trying the
routine and couldn't find it. Found it this morning though. (duh!) <g> :*
Jim,
>> Well, it's relatively cheap – less than many magazine subscriptions. And
thats IPAS included! <G> <<
I'll look into it next week. Any chance you'll be moving to the internet? We
wish everybody would (including Adesk and this forum), since we have T1 lines
at work.
>>Any chance you'll be moving to the internet?<<
Well, it's pretty *certain* that we'll move the Rendering Plant to the
Internet. _When_ is the issue. It's not there yet, and it may be a while still.
At present it's not in the budget, based on local connect fees and what the bbs
costs.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim;
>> My BBS gives subscribers a copyrighted program called SVARY (super
>> VARY)
Please provide the phone number and subscription price (specifics like other
benefits).
Thanks,
Dennis
>>Please provide the phone number and subscription price (specifics like other
benefits).<<
Well, the phone number is 816-525-8362 or -5614. The subscription price is,
well less than the cost of 7 movie tickets for a year's access. If I get more
specific than that, I get nasty messages from CIS! Other benefits? Well, just
tons of files… lots of meshes you don't see anywhere else. It's a pretty
thorough repository of everything we can legally put on-line that is 3DS,
animation, rendering, or graphics related.
Thanks,
Jim
>> Anyone have any other candidates for my Useless IPASes list? 🙂
Yes, Refraction mapping can be easily outdone by Rayman if you have enough
patience to transfer animation frame by frame and don't use any IPASes,
and with Rayman you can get true raytraced quality too.
My point is: good IPASes are not only those you can not SURVIVE without,
but also those which make your life EASIER.
That is exactly an area where utility
of such "useless" IPASes asPython and Greg's
is.
Alex, Video International
I think there was something I heard about in the Constitution called freedom of
choice. But then again, US History was never my specialty.
I look at it this way, its a free society/market. If you personally think an
IPAS is useless, dont buy it. If you find it is useless after you have bought
it, and it is within the return period policy, return it. Nobody holds a gun to
anyones head at tells them to buy IPAS routines. And just becuse technology
advances, or your skills advance, doesn't mean that you should be able to get
an exchange on an old ipas, just because you found another way of doing it.
Thats one of the great things about 3D Studio, there is always more than 1 way
to do something.
What you say may be true with some of the IPAS routines out there. Most can be
done, with a bit of work, inside 3D Studio. But if you are in a crunch, these
routine can save you time.
Christopher Ryan
Metrolight Studios
I only own LenZFX and IPAS six, I can't think of an other methods to
reproduce glow/Glare or Fire or Skin without drawing frame in ani-pro or morph
every target, perhaps these are two MUST have Ipas
Greg 🙂
>> VARY.SXP — totally useless, …
WOW, I'm amazed! How long does it take you to create an animated opacity
map as opposed to using VARY? and how many times have you made an animated
opacity map and than had to change that time segment? Doesn't the time
savings alone justify this IPAS?
I know that to be successful in this business it's not a matter of "yes but
I can do that without an IPAS" but rather to use the right tools to get the
job done in the least amount of time.
Ralph
Marion K. Marks:
You find IPAS routines "actually don't do anything that you can't do without
them." The same can be said for Computer Graphics in general by your
reasoning! <G> Why don't you just go back to generating your graphics by hand?
Go back to flip book animations. Computers are just a luxury for animation
right? How about becoming a developer for plug-ins? Your ideas would probably
produce a killer app. Then again maybe you too would be grilled here on the
forum for the routines' shortcomings.
– Bob Ritger
Hi, Robert!
Didn't you understand, that this M&M guy is just a young fellow,
who is too overwhelmed by his discoveries, that some things can be done
in several ways in 3DS. Don't take him too seriously, and don't ever try
to reconvince him in anything, he will learn himself.
He reminds me of myself 15 years ago, but I was smarter not to be that
rebellish and
didn't have access to the Net to tell people about my small discoveries in
such
a strange way.
Regards,
Alex, Video International
I'm not young. I'm 36. I'm sorry if people perceive my messages as
negative. I simply intended them as attempts to inform. There is plenty of
gushing praise for 3DS and the numerous plug-ins from many here (myself
included), yet no one says that unrelenting praise "undermines credibility,"
and of course that is just as much bias as my perceived "
I see the same thing going on too.
Mike
Hi!
I am from the country where (after 1987) everything is criticized and very
severe,
but at some point people realized, that it is not the most productive approach.
You may like Gorbachev or hate him, but his requirement for accepting
only "Constructive criticizm" is what I am admiring him for.
Your messages (I've read) can not be counted as "constructive", rather as
"destructive", and that is why I disagreed with your position.
In my company we replaced slogan: "that is bad" with the slogan:
"it could be done better (and that is how)", and this attitude helped
establish great cooperative microclimate in our team…
I like 3DS community exactly for that approach (look at IPAS Usage section),
and I think it helps both users and developers.
Alex, Video International
P.S. Sorry, I miscalculated your age, but your messages sounded so familiar
(like young Lenin works).
You were so short from stating:
"poor users, be aware, that these greedy developers exploiting your lack of
knowledge … etc " (see V.I.Lenin, volume 2, letter to Plekhanov)
>> Alex, Video International
P.S. Sorry, I miscalculated your age, but your messages sounded so familiar
(like young Lenin works).
You were so short from stating:
"poor users, be aware, that these greedy developers exploiting your lack of
knowledge … etc " (see V.I.Lenin, volume 2, letter to Plekhanov)<<
I love it!!!! <BG>
Sorry I had to jump in here but Aleksey, you are my favorite Russian! If we
meet at SIGGRAPH next Year or possibly Sooner I Owe You One!
I Really Enjoyed that particular Comparison because as I was reading this
thread I was thinking of what was commonly reffered to as the "French"
"Manifesto"….wherein the Students rioted in the 60's and proclaimed that
Capitalizim must Perish!..<BG>
Then you come up with a comparison with Lenin!….<GGGG>..Perfect!
I love it!
I'll go away now.
Murph'
Well, time to say something from far-behind-the-moon germany:
I`m using VARY.SXP very often and I use Elastic Realitys Transjammer to make
transitions and fades. I also have Python but don`t use it very often (because
the effect is not needed very often in my kind of jobs).
I know that there are million other ways to do exactly the same but using
VARY.SXP is the most comfortable way >I< want to go!
But I don`t want to stay in the boring details. I think we don`t need 500 IPAS
routines where every IPAS does only one singel and small effect. Take a look at
FLAME and VAPOR (I love this IPAS)! And look at BUBBLE, FLOCK, MAGIC, DUST and
so much more particle based IPAS. Why don`t we have one killer IPAS application
wich does everything with particles you can imagine? Fire, wind, dust, water,
glow/shimmering effects.
An other example are the many image processing IPAS which help you to change
the contrast, brightness, color, saturation and so on, of an image. Why isn`t
there a killer IPAS wich makes all of this and includes all the tens of
Schreibers filter IPAS?
I think Digimations LenzFX or Inferno is a good example for such an IPAS. You
can make all glow effects you can imagine with this single IPAS. So I hope I
don`t have to buy 300 IPAS (and learn how they work, look for updates and 300
possible alternatives) but only 10 in the future. Until then I have to buy a
new IPAS for every new effect I have to produce. But in the most cases a 99$
IPAS is much more productive then doing the same effect with mappings or other
techniques…
Michael
Michael <<don't have to buy 300 IPAS but only 10 in the future>> Well said. I'm
afraid this has to do with economics, which is understandable to a certain
extent. There sure are a lot of "must-have-Plug-ins", and looking into the face
of MAX and doing a double-take at 3-DS CLASSIC, I get the shakes (hey … the
shakes … that would be a nice IPAS) jeffrey
Hi Jeffrey,
<< I get the shakes (hey … the shakes … that would be a nice IPAS) >>
Check out the fractal noise that you can add to your paths using Tempo..(pg 61
of the Tempo Docs)…<g> for great shakes…
It's morning Jonas! <<Check out the fractal noise… for great shakes>> Uh-huh,
I often use fractal noise… many times using different degrees of shakes for
different elements withing the same character. But the shakes I was thinking
about relate to something I can achieve with 2-D characters, that would be nice
in 3-D as well. In 2D, after I have completed a character's animation, I set up
a routine that clips the character and moves it over [?] pixels, holds for [?]
frames, moves back to point of origin, holds for [?] frames, moves in opposite
direction [?] pixels, holds etc etc. It's easy to set up a frame extent, x/y/z
axis and degree of shakes. The z axis is addressed by simply adding [?] %size.
Since this can be quickly modified and the segment redefined, it never looks
pre-fab-canned — unless I've had too much coffee. Then everything stays
perfectly still! (;-0 Jonas, at this rate, you guys are going to get me to
start C++'n yet. Jeffrey
Hi Michael,
Just to add my two cents to this plug-in discussion…
I understand your sentiments and believe that there is a good market for for
powerful, unviversal tools. It would certainly be interesting to see an
"Optics Lab" or "Particle GOD" plug-in but let's not let our enthusiasm for
the super plug-ins blind us to the value of the single function plug-ins.
I for one am some one who likes to buy my tools one at a time. Whether its
wood working, art supplies, or software I look for an efficient, elegant, and
well crafted tool that does the job exceptionally well.
Its the difference between using a fine Japanese dovetailing saw versus using
the Sears multi-template router jig. I have both and I would sorely miss
either one if they weren't available.
So my feeling is that we need all the plug-ins we can get. Bring on the
super-universal plug-in application suites but let's also support those
single function plug-ins that just might just do one small thing better than
the others. I want both.
Steven
If possible I`ll always prefer both! <g>.
Michael
Steven,
I for one dislike this canned approach to particle systems. I think for
particle systems it would be nice to have an equivalent to Dynamation where you
could create any type of particle system you liked with dynamics (wind,
gravity, turbulence, etc).
"Killer Ipas" would also have Killer prices!
LensFX, is the only killer app' without the big price tag,
I would love to own World Builder, the thought of any organic scence I can
think up without the hard work makes me dribble LOL, but at L1000+ in the UK,
it MAX or WB, so I think MAX wins,
So if other "killer" IPAS's were made then, myself and other small two man
bands would never be able to afford them
Greg 🙂
One "Killer IPAS" I've envisioned recently is a generic SKY.IXP that does
what STARS3.IXP plus can handle sky coloration for any time of day, and has
parameters for generating a variety of fractal-computed clouds (even animated
if you wish), and also encompasses SOLTRK or SUNPATH so that the position of
the sun, moon, planets, etc. can be added accordingly. (You would still need
SOLTRK or SUNPATH to animate an actual light source for the sun or moon, but
the .IXP could produce the image — complete with lens flare in the case of the
sun, and phases for the moon!) This would save having to map a panoramic cloud
view to a hemisphere or cylinder. Like STARS, it would follow the camera view
and adjust itself accordingly.
Now that would be a Killer Ap' Someone could make a mint out of that one LOL,
I just wish there was something that could make Planets to film level from
scratch, or 3D wormholes, it took me hours just to make a LD still of one
let alone make the flipping thing move!
Matt 🙂
Whats Inferno?
If its a flame routine I would be interested. Thanks.
Well, I believe Inferno is the update/new version of LenzFx and it should
include LenzFX, Lumina and some other tiny things…
My dealer told me that it will availabe at the end of Sept.
Doesn`t the Yost FLAME IPAS everything you need?
Michael
Michael,
Murphy's checking on the Inferno/upgrade deal for me right now. Among other
things, I believe that inferno will include flame and explosions. We're just
not sure what the upgrade deal is if you buy LenzFX right now. The best we
could narrow it down to was, it's either free, $50, or $100. <g> Anyway, if you
would like, I'll let you know as soon as Murphy gets back to me with the info.
Terry
Terry, I would like to know also. In fact I'll Jeff Teachworth at Digimation on
Tuesday.
Generating explosions is a little clumsy right now. Hope this will be better.
Mark,
Ok, when I know, you'll know. Unless of course, you know before I know. Which
could be a good possibility if you talk to Jeff Tuesday. If so then you let me
know, and I'll let Murph know, then we'll all know.
Terry
>>Anyway, if you would like, I'll let you know as soon as Murphy >>gets back to
me with the info.
That would be great because I didn`t recieve an reply to my messages to
Digimation…
Michael
Michael,
>> I didn't recieve a reply to my messages to Digimation<<
That's not surprising, they're gearing up for the World Media Expo in New
Orleans next weekend. I tried to get an appointment to go see, and buy World
Builder, they wouldn't even take time out for that. I did however, receive on
Aug. 30, two app's for free passes and badges to the expo. Of, course the
deadline to get them, was Aug.25. <g>
Terry
I hope Digimation finds enough time to sell RayMan`s <g>.
Michael
Michael,
Maybe they will have more time after the show. <g> That's why I'm just going to
go back letting Murphy being my laison to them. I'm about 40 miles from
Digimation, but I get better response times (and prices too most of the time)
buying their stuff through him in Wisconsin. Go figure. <g>
Terry
Yep, it does… but I always want more of everything…Just hate to miss out on
the new stuff.
Flame, love it, own it, but try making a circular explosion!
The only Ipas's to allow that are one by Eric Peterson and Inferno, or so I'm
told…
Matt:)
Greg,
What is the IPAS from Eric Peterson for explosions?
I've been using Magic, LenzFX, and Glow a la the Planet Studio article.
Thanks.
Eric has written (or Audrey his wife has!), two IPAS's, ones called TNT and
is a particle generator, the other's called make tracks, and is used for all
sorts of things including Phasor's, a good demo of them is the new gif he has
on the ASHOWCASE forum, were the Enterprise A recieves a direct hit from the
Reliant its in NEW FILES.
If you want more info give him a mail, I just know what he has told me 🙂
Matt 🙂
Thanks Greg!
Greetings!
Just thought I'd take the opportunity to straighten things out. Sisyphus
supplies two packages right now: Solids Completer and Particle Pack #1. Solids
Completer is a collection of eleven 'extended primitives' that Studio can't
make in one pass plus a routine to apply lofted mapping coordinates to ANY box
or toroid, and Particle Pack #1 is three AXP routines: TNT, HALO, and PHASOR.
TNT does shaped, controllable explosions, but you get really awesome results if
you process the particle burst with Glow or LenzFX. HALO makes rings,
whirlpools, and black holes. PHASOR supplies a generalized particle noise
field, beam, or sheet. It's PHASOR that does the psuedo-rapids and eels, too.
In two weeks we'll be releasing MAKE TRACKS, and we hope to have Particle Pack
#2 out by the end of October. We haven't posted any demos for PP2 yet, but it
will supply both particle burst and particle drift effects with motion noise,
gravity planes, bouncing, and support for multiple particle types. All of our
routines except Solids Completer retail for about $70. Solids Completer just
went up to $45.
Note that Particle Pack #1 supplies effects in local coordinates, so the whole
particle system moves with the stand-in. It is, however, very, very fast.
Particle Pack #2 works with secondary motion data, so it can do trails and
moving water-hose type effects.
We're Registered Developers now, and it is indeed Audrey who does the code.
I'm just the mathematician and general marketing fluff.
Thanks for asking about us! The demos posted over in IPAS are somewhat
outdated and represent our first attempts to use these rather generalized
routines. We have better ones now. If you'd like to see the output of a
specific routine, let me know and I'll mail something over.
-Eric Peterson
Sisyphus Software
Hi Y'all!
I'd be interested in seeing samples of the three AXPs. The TNT explosion is
sorely needed.
Thanks for the info and keep me informed.
Bye!
We'll upload some new ones. ADESK thought it'd be worthwhile too.
-Eric
Hi Eric,
<< The demos posted over in IPAS are somewhat outdated and represent our first
attempts to use these rather generalized routines. We have better ones now.
If you'd like to see the output of a specific routine, let me know and I'll
mail something over. >>
I think many forum members would like to see updated versions of the
demos/images/animations uploaded to the library.
jonas[adesk]
Re: Updated Demos: will do. We were concerned about taking up too much space.
BTW: We've gotten our care package, but we've got no formal notice and no one's
told us our 'Developer Number'. We've got e-mail out, but I guess you guys are
real busy right now…
BTW II: We never got a response re: details of SXP operation in terms of the
definition of surface perturbation. Should that wait until we're in the closed
developer support forum?
Thanks for the advice and continued support!
-Eric
Hi Eric,
<< space..>>
IPAS demos and IPAS examples have lots of priority around here. Keep 'em
coming.
<< no one's told us our 'Developer Number'. >>
I'll ask Melrose today.
<< We never got a response re: details of SXP operation in terms of the
definition of surface perturbation. >>
I escalated the problem/question up the information chain of command. However,
still no responce.:-(
jonas[adesk]
I love your point Michael.
On the other hand think about it if developers were to combine their IPAS
into a single routine it would cause a lot more memory over head. I love
LenzFX, but this is a classic example of too much over head. When then the size
of the routine grows so does memory, and time waiting for the routine too
process. I hope you don't think I'm bagging on you. I do wish some times that
the routines would be combined into one, but I just member how slow it would
go.
Mike White
>> On the other hand think about it if developers were to combine >>their IPAS
into a single routine it would cause a lot more memory >>over head.
I think it`s a question of programming technique. If you run the IPAS only for
rendering (e.g. network rendering) you don`t have to load the complete IPAS
with user interface, online help and so on…
To take a look at LenzFX: looks really nice but it don`t have to load FLARE,
STAR and FOCUS if I only want to use AURA…
I think the quality of the programm code of many IPAS isn`t as good as it
could be. But who cares if the programm runs error free? I because I want
faster programms <bg>…
Michael
I see your point Michael. I would really like to combine our routines into one.
Our's really could be one. We have one routine called Tmaker.sxp which is
capable of archiving all our textures. The only thing needed would be some
preset buttons for preset textures. Good pont again have a good one.
Mike
>>We have one routine called Tmaker.sxp which is capable of >>archiving all our
textures.
That sounds interesting. We have a lot of your SXP`s and it would be a step
forward to delete them from our MAP directory and use one IPAS instead of them.
How much money?
Michael
<<< That sounds interesting. We have a lot of your SXP`s and it would be a step
forward to delete them from our MAP directory and use one IPAS instead of them.
How much money?>>>
Well we are the only one's selling this routine . The price is 50.00 dollars
U.S. There's a few people about three that have it know and they love it. One
is Lee Steele. You might want to ask him what he thinks.
Mike
Hi Mike-
PMJI, but I'd like some info on the stuff you sell, especially the .sxp's.
Thanks,
Carlton
Hello there Carlton I'll write a doc up today and post in the messg..
Mike
Mike,
Please e-mail me info on T-maker.
Thanks,
JNJ
<<<Please e-mail me info on T-maker.>>>
Ok John.
Mike
Bill, You're too much sometimes. Just because you don't _think_ there's a use
means nothing. Pyros' routines save much time over doing it manually which in
itself is a very important use. I for one wouldn't want to try and duplicate a
quatro effect manually. And as it's been pointed out to you Python can do
things that opacity mapping cannot. Besides Python is cheap so who cares. I
just don't understand why you get bent on these flame messages sometimes. You
should think more before you write.
DM
Hi Dave,
Whats Python? I hardly ever see IPASs except Digimations, Schreibers, and the
other big-name stuff.
Thanks
Mark, Python's an IPAS marketed by Schreiber for _growing_ an object along a
path. For some things you can use opacity mapping as a workaround but there are
times when mapping won't do the trick and Python will. It's in Schreibers
catalog, if you want more info. on it.
DM
Thanks. I've got the catalog and will look it up.
Uh, who's "Bill"? There is no "Bill" at M&M Communications Concepts. As
for "flame messages," I guess either you or Compuserve has a way different
definition of "flame" than the other systems I use more (GEnie, etc.). To me,
a "flame" is a rant that contains personal or argumentum ad hominem attacks
against other users, and a "flamewar" occurs when the attacked users respond in
kind, resulting in spiraling escalation of insults and pointless attacks. I
don't recall ever once, in any of my messages, referring to other _people_ in a
negative way. I do refer to _actions_ in a nevative way, such as saying that
the people at Autodesk shouldn't do or have done thus-and-so, but I don't, for
instance, call them names nor cast aspersions on their character, ancestry,
etc.
Yet, in the course of this thread alone, I have been called "negative," my
"credibility" has been questioned, and I have even been accused of being under
the influence of "PMT" (apparently the poster in question meant to say "PMS").
And now I have been accused by you of "get[ting] bent on these flame messages."
Unless the definitions differ here, that is like accusing the Jews in Nazi
Germany of genocide!
Note that even now, I have not said anything negative about you as a person
nor made any insults. I have only responded to what you actually said.
My original post which started this thread was not negative nor an attack on
anyone. It was not a "flame message" by any of the definitions I've known. It
wsa a simple informative post aimed at those who don't have budgets of five
figures annually to spend on IPASes. It was meant solely to provide data that
I wish had been available to us, namely, informing that some IPASes that have
been advertised as doing things that could not be done otherwise simply don't
do that. We bought Python because we needed to do an animated signature for a
specific project. We read here on this forum that the ONLY WAY to do so
effectively was with Python. No one suggested animated opacity maps. When we
bought Python and I saw what it actually did, I was very disappointed to say
the least. The money we spent on it could have gone to some other IPAS, even
one from the same company (Schreiber), that did something we needed that could
NOT have been effectively done by some other means.
Basically, I thought from the description given here that Python was an .AXP
that did what it did on a single mesh at render time. That at least would be
efficient. But the way it is now, as a .PXP which makes morph targets (one PER
FRAME for acceptable results!), is as inefficient as, say, Morph Materials in
place of VARY.SXP would be — and far more so.
I can see a use for Python: namely, when the _end_ of the lofted object
needs to be seen face-on or from a view where it needs to be present and
apparent. Animated opacity maps can't do that. But for signatures, that was
not the case.
Python may be "so cheap" to you, but to some others here, _any_ cost that is
not truly necessary is a liability that we don't need. Not just in the loss of
cash flow itself, but also in the loss of having some other tool of about the
same cost that would have done something more valuable for us.
Python really does need to be an .AXP, the more I think about it. Not only
is the .PXP woefully inefficient (creating all those morph targets eats RAM in
prodigious amounts), but it just isn't powerful enough. Suppose, for instance,
you want to have a _rounded_ or variable-shaped end cap such as (in the classic
Python example) liquid flowing through a pipe would have. Python can't do
that, since lofted objects are _always_ made from flat shapes that are lofted
and all it does is move vertices down the path, so the end cap is _always_
flat. End caps of other shapes would require adding vertices, and that just
can't be done with morph targets. .AXP has no such limitation. Or how about
scaling the animation for more frames, say, if your client says the signature
goes too fast? With Python as a .PXP, that means redoing the entire Python
process from scratch to accommodate the new frames. An .AXP would simply
handle the frames as-is. For the same reason, Python.PXP can't be trusted in
field mode (as the documentation itself states — something else that wasn't
known to us before we bought it), whereas an .AXP could handle fields easily.
There. A constructive suggestion on how Python can be improved to be a
truly valuable product. Satisfied?
M&M:
Perhaps the reason your messages are received as so "negative", is that often
we go months at a time without seeing a single message from you, and then
*BOOM*, we see a whole slew of rather long messages that are majoritively
critical of something or the other (be it 3DS, misc IPAS routines, whatever).
Also, your critiques seem to take the tack of "such-and-such wasn't done
right", when it may have been the result of a tradeoff-decision made with full
knowledge of the resultant limitations — thus it may have been "done _right_",
but based on a poor (in hindsight) decision. Saying something isn't done right
is an indirect attack on the abilities of the creator.
Combine that with the fact that you at times continue carping on some fact LONG
after everyone here has become very aware of your position (ie the naming of
r4). Even those of us who agree with you (as I do on the r4 name thing, for
instance) get really tired and put-off by the way it "sneaks" into every
message.
Perhaps now that you will be appearing more frequently, and thus will be able
to partake in more discussion (and hence contribute more than a bunch of "this
wasn't done right" messages), people's perceptions of you will change. (For
instance, I seem to recall that you have quite a gift for explaining complex
issues or steps to people.)
I certainly hope so.
Dave
Thanks. I guess I do seem a bit cynical at times. I can see how the phrase
"not done right" could be inferred as an attack against the programmers or
marketers responsible for whatever I think wasn't "done right," but that's
never what I intended to imply. And I can see how the delay between my posts
made it seem like I was venting rant after rant all at once, when in fact I had
typed those replies over the prior month or so since the last Navigator pass
I'd done. Even if it took me months to type them, you all were reading them in
one fell swoop, so the effect is as if I signed on one day and just vented my
spleen, then vanished not to be seen again for months.
Speaking of which, I just realized I have to leave NOW if I'm gonna arrive
at SIGgraph a month late! <g,d,rlh>
— Joel Rea @ M&M Communications Concepts
Well, Joel… Arriving at SIGGRAPH '95 a _year_ late might not be a bad
idea!<g> I mean, there was a lot of cool stuff (like some new thing Autodesk
was showing — some kind of dancing-monkey game, or something<g>), but downtown
LA ain't my idea of the ideal environ! New Orleans, now — that'll be another
story….
Dave
Oh! AND, <this is really to all those who attended, esp those living in the
area>, WHAT was the deal around the campus? When we got to the Shrine
Auditorium on Monday for the ET, we wanted to eat first. So, we parked in a
lot adjacent to the SA, and walked around the edge of the nearby campus, etc.
There were NO eating places except a few fast food joints. We found ONE
bar/restaurant, except it was closed and boarded up! I know cars are de riguer
(sp?) in CA, but come on! A university w/o an adjacent food/alcohol support
complex? Sheesh!
>>Oh! AND, <this is really to all those who attended, esp those living
in the area>, WHAT was the deal around the campus? When we got to the Shrine
Auditorium on Monday for the ET, we wanted to eat first. So, we parked in a
lot adjacent to the SA, and walked around the edge of the nearby campus, etc.
There were NO eating places except a few fast food joints. We found ONE
bar/restaurant, except it was closed and boarded up! I know cars are de riguer
(sp?) in CA, but come on! A university w/o an adjacent food/alcohol support
complex? Sheesh!<<
Hi Dave, here's a note from your friendly California Blonde. (Don't get worked
up, I'm a guy….)
Here's a brief description of the 2 main areas around the Shrine that have
restaurants. To us in LA, the BEST restaurants serve food in styrofoam
containers and you sit on moulded plastic seats! <BG> Because of our
'automobile culture' LA did much to popularize the fast-food genre. (Please
don't hit me!)
If you were to walk East from the Shrine (towards the elevated freeway) there
is a major street (Figueroa Ave.). It is covered with about 8-10 fast-food
joints and one coffee-shop at the "Vagabond Inn" that serves beer and wine.
If you were to head West of the Shrine, you would run into an outdoor mall-sey
type thang. It has a movie theater complex, some shopping and a couple of
eateries. It used to have a sports/pizza bar, but I think the last time I went
by it was closed.
One thing you'll have to remember, USC (University of Southern California) is
populated by spoiled rich-kids (no offense to the spoiled rich-kids that are
reading this! <G>) who all drive to their apartments in their Mercedes after
class. They're not foolish enough to actually LIVE in that neighborhood! (Even
though I lived for 3 years in a rougher area close by . . . on the other side
of the freeway.)
As a resident of the Los Angeles area, I want to say I'm sorry that you left
with such a bad impression of LA. Don't give up hope, though; if you would like
to give us another chance, I'll be happy to do what I can to make LA a better
place for you.
Like, sincerly, dude! Sean Platter
Sean:
Yeah, it was the "food court" at the shopping center at which we ate (w/ me
dropping a grease-laden glop of chinese food on my nice off-white slacks!).
Yes, the bar was history. I believe we went by the fast-food area as we were
driving in, but we kind of wanted something else….
Anyway, while we decided that it _was_ probably due to the "auto-culture" that
we found very little immediately adjacent to campus, it was one of those
"too-late" realizations.<g>
Sorry to bag on the old home-town, but maybe the chamber of commerce will be
forwarded some of my email and fly me out for an all-expenses-paid holiday that
will whisk me & a guest via limo to all the best that the LA basin has to
offer, allowing me to return to my meager midwestern home and spin tales laced
with superlative after superlative, about how wonderful LA is and that simply
_everyone_ must go visit!
And maybe I'll win the lottery, too.<g>
Thanks for the offer of tour-guide. You may regret it if I make it back out
there one of these days….
Dave
>>Thanks for the offer of tour-guide. You may regret it if I make it
back out there one of these days….<<
Dave,
Make sure and drop me a note before you come!
All the best,
Sean Platter
>> There. A constructive suggestion on how Python can be improved to be a
>> truly valuable product. Satisfied?
So, you do know the difference between a constructive suggestion and a
negative comment, ala "USELESS IPASs". Although your messages of
today still question this negativity.
Now if you could just FOLLOW THE RULES about posting your name, as has been
explained to you by Anne, Jonah, Robert, and the forum opening screen…
…and use constructive critisism (which is always welcome here) you might
just get back some of that credibility.
Maybe your own account is in order.
Ralph
>…Satisfied?
No. Who are you?
Here's me: Tyler Colwell, Sierra Analysis Group.
What is your full name (first and last), and what do you do at M&M?
This shouldn't have to be asked, but I ask, due to the obvious fact that you
have not volunteered this information in goodwill- even though you know people
do not appreciate your anonymity.
John Neil Jordan
CGI- Video Editing Services
Independent 3D animator/artist for games
Ok, fine you're not Bill, but I swear there was a Bill that logged on from M&M.
Oh well anyway, if you're going to take offense at your name being wrong then
post it for people to see. Yes, I'm happier. Your message was much more
constructive than it was previously – like it should have been in the first
place. I agree totally that Python is ineffiecient but stating that it's
useless etc. is jsut plain wrong and you should have said it that way all
along. Look, I never meant to offend you but you have a tendency of jumping the
gun on certain things and making people take offense at your messages. This,
you've seen on this thread alone. Maybe you just need to try and explain
yourself better or something. Well, anyway I'm glad to see a more informative
post. I've enjoyed many of your messages so keep posting.
DM
Did I say it was "useless"? I can't remember and don't have time to check
in Auto-Filed. I thought I said it was one that isn't necessary for most
purposes. There is a big difference between the two.
OK, how about "Joel"?
LAM
==name that anonymous user in 20 or fewer trys!!==