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#Multi-tasking Computers
169 messages in this thread
That's funny you should mention Marble Madness of all EA Amiga products to
bash!! If anything, Marble Madness has sold thousands of Amigas, literally,
in and among itself. It has easily the best graphics, and easily the best
soound of any of the Marble Madness conversions. It is very funny and
humerous – and contains alot of small touches that the other ones miss – like
the brush cleaning up the marble shatterings.
Now you're calling EA "reprehensible" – quite a strong word about not
having Analog joystick support in a game that hasn't even been released yet.
No, I think their's something more to this. Unfortunately, I think it's
because it's the "in" thing to do. If you bash EA here you'll have a lot of
people grin and smile and type little messages back and forth – I have been
watching it.
Please tell me which games and products crash your computer and why? It's
funny because Ben Blish said that DPaint II crashes and gurus his computer
constantly. However, the other night in CO I asked some people (who are well
known around here, in fact) that use DPaint II constantly if it ever crashed
on them. One person (I won't put him on the spot by naming him) said that he
used every available function in DPaint II in all sorts of circumstances and
had NEVER seen the guru.
Further evidence of it being "in" to bash EA.
It's also funny to see people bash WordPerfect, yet when you really ask
them what they do to crash the program, they quote a November version (me
wonders why they still have November – when customer support mails out
updates free) or they say "well a friend of mine said that" with no hard
evidence any more.
I think what I am witnessing is a disturbing and distressing trend to bash
particularly well established companies with little reason. I think it's
kind of adolescent.
I use Dpaint II very sparingly (because I'm not an artist) but I can lock it
up every time. They blew the file requester. Just try loading or saving a
file to a directory with 100 or so entries.
That kind of bug wouldn't bother me – I'm a whole lot more organized than to
have a directory with 100 entries in it. But beyond that – don't you think
there is a bug on that calibre (of obscureness, etc.) in everything that's
out there?? No offense, but I could trash the last few lines of my PaperClip
documents every time. It's just that there are bugs in everything.
THe impression that some people are trying to give about EA and their
productgs are that they crash a whole lot more than normal, and crash with
more regularity. I don't think that's true.
That kind of bug wouldn't bother me – I'm a whole lot more organized than to
have a directory with 100 entries in it. But beyond that – don't you think
there is a bug on that calibre (of obscureness, etc.) in everything that's
out there?? No offense, but I could trash the last few lines of my PaperClip
documents every time. It's just that there are bugs in everything.
THe impression that some people are trying to give about EA and their
productgs are that they crash a whole lot more than normal, and crash with
more regularity. I don't think that's true.
Aren't you the man who told me "normal people don't have directories with
hundreds of files in them" when I asked you if a warning should be posted
on a certain PD program because it had the same problem?
If I recall correctly, I think my reply was that I never claimed to be
normal… guess I can't recall you ever claiming it either. <Chuckle>
Yes, and I went back and counted. Dpaint will crash if you ask it to read
a directory with 67 entries (one of my current directories — I didn't
start deleting to see what the actual total is before the crash occurs.
There is a difference between 67 and 'hundreds'. If you don't think so,
just tell your employer to give you $67 a month instead of 'hundreds'.
8) Not a valid challenge… since I'm unemployed. I already KNOW what it
feels like to live on "$67 a month", son. <Chuckle>
8) Not a valid challenge… since I'm unemployed. I already KNOW what it
feels like to live on "$67 a month", son. <Chuckle>
Yes, and I went back and counted. Dpaint will crash if you ask it to read
a directory with 67 entries (one of my current directories — I didn't
start deleting to see what the actual total is before the crash occurs.
There is a difference between 67 and 'hundreds'. If you don't think so,
just tell your employer to give you $67 a month instead of 'hundreds'.
Aren't you the man who told me "normal people don't have directories with
hundreds of files in them" when I asked you if a warning should be posted
on a certain PD program because it had the same problem?
If I recall correctly, I think my reply was that I never claimed to be
normal… guess I can't recall you ever claiming it either. <Chuckle>
I use Dpaint II very sparingly (because I'm not an artist) but I can lock it
up every time. They blew the file requester. Just try loading or saving a
file to a directory with 100 or so entries.
First, I agree that Marble Madnes (among other EA products) sold a lot of
Amigas.
The fact that this is so, at least in my opinion, in no way excuses the
misbehaviour of the program in both lack of high sccore saving and the fact
that it crashes every Amiga it runs on. Two points here. The object of an
arcade style game is to beat the high score. MM does not save a high score,
nor does it even keep your score on the screen long enough to read unless you
are waiting and watching for it. The second point is that I want you to note
that I did not say that MM GURU'ed the Amiga, only that it crashes it. When a
program 'takes over', disabling multitasking, I consider that a crash. Worse,
if I must reboot, the machine by definition has crashed. period.
I don't use DPaint because I don't have it. When I have used it, I have
been both impressed and dismayed. Impressed because it is a full featured,
capable paint program. Dismayed because it doesn't handle fonts properly, has
one of the worst file requesters I have ever seen (too many assumptions, too
many times refusing to take a typed in argument, etc.), and because it is
copy protected, with an additional charge to make it usable.
In short, I don'r bash EA. I bash individual programs for reasons that I
see as valid. As it happens, I have yet to see/use anything from EA that I
haven't found something drastically wrong with in terms of basic
'philosophy'. I hate copy protection with a vengeance, and they choose to
copy protect, which causes me to choose not to buy.
First, I agree that Marble Madnes (among other EA products) sold a lot of
Amigas.
The fact that this is so, at least in my opinion, in no way excuses the
misbehaviour of the program in both lack of high sccore saving and the fact
that it crashes every Amiga it runs on. Two points here. The object of an
arcade style game is to beat the high score. MM does not save a high score,
nor does it even keep your score on the screen long enough to read unless you
are waiting and watching for it. The second point is that I want you to note
that I did not say that MM GURU'ed the Amiga, only that it crashes it. When a
program 'takes over', disabling multitasking, I consider that a crash. Worse,
if I must reboot, the machine by definition has crashed. period.
I don't use DPaint because I don't have it. When I have used it, I have
been both impressed and dismayed. Impressed because it is a full featured,
capable paint program. Dismayed because it doesn't handle fonts properly, has
one of the worst file requesters I have ever seen (too many assumptions, too
many times refusing to take a typed in argument, etc.), and because it is
copy protected, with an additional charge to make it usable.
In short, I don'r bash EA. I bash individual programs for reasons that I
see as valid. As it happens, I have yet to see/use anything from EA that I
haven't found something drastically wrong with in terms of basic
'philosophy'. I hate copy protection with a vengeance, and they choose to
copy protect, which causes me to choose not to buy.
You also quoted me innacurately and out of context when you said I called
EA 'reprehensible' for not having analog joystick support. WEhat I _did_ say
was thet I felt that it was a reprehensible attitude to leave out analog
support in favour of a little more digitized sound. I also feel that it is
reprehensible to leave out any feature that contributes to the purpose of the
program in favur of glitz and glitter. Yes, it may sell more programs if the
glitz is there, but that does not change my feeling about it, and does not
benefit me. "So what if it doesn't have a steering wheel… look at that
beautiful racing stripe."
As for WP… well, I can't comment on the efficacy of the program, except
to say that I have personally seen it crash in early versions. As I also said
before, I applaud their customer support and speed of bug fixes, but face
it… problems are problems, and not all users send in their cards. Not all
users know there have been updates. I still occasionally get people asking
about problems with WP (as little as about 2 weeks ago), and who are
surprised when I tell them that there have been more updates to WP than there
have been programs from EA. I refer them to WP Corp, and don't ever bash
them. I simply pointed out, here, that there have been numerous problems with
WP (the program), and have thought that I made it plain that I like WP (the
company).
In general, yes, many programs have bugs. I can live with some of them, not
with others. What I simply cannot live with is a fundamental philosophical
stand taken by a company that either reduces the usability of a program or
makes it ttally unusable. Included in this are copy protection (dongles
especially), taking over the machine (crashing it), disabling multitasking
(crippling other, less obnoxious programs), or refusing to consider removing
glitz in favour of utility.
-larry
From what I've seen in Amiga games in my short-lived experience (and I've
seen a whole lot, working at a store) there are very few games (many
excellent) that you would have the same gripes about. There's the CinemeWare
series with some excellent games (and some not so hot), there's Ultima, and
many many others.
However for some reason you do seem to be singling out EA. How many games
are copy protected? LOTS. Why do you single out Electronic Arts so
constantly and with such enthusiasm?
Personally I think the problem is that your expecations are too high. If
you experienced -everything- from the developer's point of view – including
sales lost to theft, effort taking in multitasking the program (do you know
how many calls WP gets about crashes that are due to other things
multitasking with it and crashing? lots..) you'd have a different point of
view.
Until then, there's very little that you're going to be happy with. And I
think that's an indication of too-high expectations. Especially considering
your term "reprehensible" atttitude. I bet if you went over to EA and saw
charts graphing profits made, development costs, etc., you'd have a different
feeling.
I have excepted the fact that not everything I buy forever is always going
to take full advantage of my computer. I had alot of 8 bit Atari software
that had no idea what SpartaDos, a USDoubler, or expanded memory was. And
some of that software was still excellent.
As for not saving high scores on Mable Madness, again that's common of MANY
games. You know what people say when it does save games? "It's going to
trash the disk one day" they whine. Not saving high scores is common among
hundreds of EA and hundreds of non-EA games. But for some reason, alot of
people relish picking on EA solely, and I don't think it's for valid reasons.
I'll tell you something frankly, and from a developers point of view; if it
doesn't multitask, it's broken, with the single exception of certain
simulations and games that require all the machines resources time wise; and
they STILL do not have to crash the machine, they can simply shut off the
tasking. There are very clean mechanisms to do it. Certain signal anaylisis
programs may also require the system's resources for a short time – agin,
(again) there is no need to crash the system to get them. It's slop
programming, and that's ALL it is. You shouldn't treat this machine like it
was a c64; doing so shows you (the developer in question, EA, for instance)
as an amatuer. –Ben–
Well you've just slighted hundreds of wonderful programs (like Larry).
There's Faery Tale, Ultima, EA products, Silent Service, and hundreds more.
It's a matter of the glass of water being half empty or half full. Some can
choose to live in a corner and cast dispersions and hatred toward game
companies that don't allow multitasking. Others of us, however, live with it
and enjoy the products.
I don't agree with singling EA out either.
Listen, you can enjoy them all you like; and I can _not_ enjoy them all _I_
like; It is a fact that I would enjoy playing some games – and those that
will multitask, I can in fact play. I cannot, however, crash my system to
play around in some cave – or fly a plane. I don't even use jet but vercy
rarely, because it's broken (breaks everything else, read that as) and I need
my system available for real work. I _do_ have some text adventures that run
very nicely in their own windows, and I love them. All my ham radio stuff
multitasks, too – even the fax stuff, which stops tasking at critical times,
doesn't destroy the system, and can be paused at ANY time to run the rest of
the stuff. I'm just as quick to cast aspersions on CoCo games – they're
broken too; they don't run on my hardware… no difference, in my opinion. It
is a fact that we are here to share our views, and I just want to point out
that here (and almost nowhere else<grin>) Larry and I share a common
viewpoint, that's all. If our opinions carry a lot of weight, it's only
because we're both very active here, both accomplished in the Amiga territory
(read, productive, well known, positive reputations most ways). If you're
upset because you feel your words don't carry the same clout, there's only
one solution… Get Crackin! <grin>. Really though – it's my opinion – why
does it bother you so? –Ben–
I in no way said anything about worried about whether my opinion carried
any weight or not. I'm sure that, in time, I will be known around here also.
In the meantime I'm not in the least way intimidated in disagreeing with
anyone, be it a Sysop, a programmer, or a CBM official.
As I said to Larry, it "bothers" me to see EA bashing because it's not
founded in strong reasons. THe reasons that have been listed to me :
MultiTasking, copy protection, and occasional gurus, are all shared by any
number of a hundred or so companies making equally fine software for the
Amiga.
You specifically said that DPAINT II gurus alot. Upon checking with others
who use Dpaint a whole lot, I've been told that it doesn't guru at all (for
them). Including using very advanced functions. Steve said that it gurus if
there are over 100 files on the directory. Well, it does. But is that type
of bug something especially nasty and unusual? Or, to put it differently, is
there a program on the market that doesn't have a bug on that level of
frequency/obscurity? I don't think so. And that kind of bug is hardly
"alot" or "frequent".
In the meantime, in swiping EA all the time, and not swiping those
companies who also violate your rules, it seems to me that people are
"picking" on EA, which I view as an instrumental company in making the Amiga
successful. I'll also tell you another thing that bothers me. If your best
friend were an EA official, you'd probably use more tact and be more careful,
wouldn't you? I think that EA should be afforded the same courtesy even if
they do seem distant. EA isn't here and isn't part of the "click", so they
get bashed for their problems. And people enjoy it. Completely callous and
insenstive to the hours of programming development time that goes into every
EA product (and it shows).
My point is to show the "other" point of view. I'm not trying to get you
to accept it, I feel that'd be fruitless.
No, Ben didn't say Dpaint gurus — he said it locks. I used it for about 3
hours today and it locked up the machine 3 times.
Steve, other than the File requestor and Font menu problems, I have no
problems with Dpaint…and I use Dpaint for hours on end. Thats not to say
that you aren't running into problems though. I just wanted to balance
things out a bit. 🙂
No problem. The 3 times I locked up were all when saving brushes to ram:
Hmmm….I use VD0: all the time…but then again thats not RAM:. Thats good
to know, no telling how much future work you just saved me. 🙂
Hmmm….I use VD0: all the time…but then again thats not RAM:. Thats good
to know, no telling how much future work you just saved me. 🙂
No problem. The 3 times I locked up were all when saving brushes to ram:
Steve, other than the File requestor and Font menu problems, I have no
problems with Dpaint…and I use Dpaint for hours on end. Thats not to say
that you aren't running into problems though. I just wanted to balance
things out a bit. 🙂
No, Ben didn't say Dpaint gurus — he said it locks. I used it for about 3
hours today and it locked up the machine 3 times.
Dpaint II gurus while filling areas, while processing large directories
(And on a 140 meg HD, there are some large directories of images, and it
is reasonable to have them) While handling large brushes, when you click
too many time in the magnify/shrink icon with either button, when you set
antialiasing to max on some brushes (I think; I mean, you mess with this
brush, and the LAST thing you did was that, so, maybe it's that, or maybe
it's just seom other bug) Anyway, it needs work.
as far as frequency of the bug – I cannot see/load all my brushes because
there are too many in there; gets me often. I keep makeing more dis, and I
keep running out of space, and it keeps guruing. It may not be frequent for
floppy users, but it is for _me_. So I complain. I swipe everybody, ask
anyone here. <grin>. And EA is here, now and then – and when they DO show
up, I swipe them then, too. It may interest you to know that according to
THEM, I was instrumental in getting the CP removed from DPaint; I bitched
and bitched and bitched – and now we have non-cp. So it has it's uses,
sometimes. Even my abrasive style of it.
As far as gurus/software errors go, I have this crusade – I don't want to
see _any_ on my system. after using Dpaint II, I reboot; I've learned that
works everytime. –Ben–
I have a feeling that if someone flamed your product you'd feel quite
differently. I erased CoComm (or whatever) after booting it up for 4
minutes. If I flamed it royally and completely (and believe me, if I used it
I'd find a way to crash it) it would bother you greatly, especially
considering the work and time that you put into it.
However, I have more tact and sensitivity than that (for people other than
myself and my ego).
Actually, I suspect he'd upload a new version within 24hours. PLEASE
DO NOT find another problem, I was getting tired of downloading a new
CoComm every night there for a while <smmiiille>
Actually, I suspect he'd upload a new version within 24hours. PLEASE
DO NOT find another problem, I was getting tired of downloading a new
CoComm every night there for a while <smmiiille>
Want to flame CoComm? Floors open, I'm willing. I might defend it with great
fervor (if I think you're wrong – it _does_ have shortcomings, of course,
though it works very well for CIS use) but I wouldn't get 'bothered' greatly.
Currently, there are plenty of users, they seem to be happy, I'm happy, and I
did NOT charge them 300.00 dollars for the priviledge. Actually, I don't
charge them at all, unless they want the manual. The dox specifically state
if they have a problem with paying for it, they shouldn't, and they can use
it guilt-free. Commercial products are something else again; you pay good
$$$, you want it not to destroy your data. Like other companies, we try hard
to make the programs reliable – PCLO, in particular, is extermely solid…
crashing it requires outside intervention from another task; and at _that_
point, I'm willing to say it's 'not my fault'. IT's CBMs, for not building in
an MMU (Note that I didn't say they should, just that it's directly
responsible for the fact that another task can crash PCLO or any other
program easily). I do try hard, and there have been days where I've been on
the 'hot' seat here – I don't dissapear off the forum, like EA does, or C
Ltd, or MSS; I take it, deal with it in my own inimitable fashion, and keep
on going. Currently, we're involved in a major upgrade of the CAD software
that is the direct result of some 'heated' dialog, of the very same type
we've been involved in, which adds ARexx capability to the CAD tools. We got
autorouting from that, among other things – _full_ autorouting. I _like_ the
interface with the people here. Even you, who, as a new user, seem to be
focused rather strangely… that's what makes you so interesting to talk to.
–Ben–
Yes I'm enjoying it too. I used to log onto Atari 16 and see 5 messages
a day. I mean, there are -wonderful- people over there, and I miss a few
of them alot (as far as speaking to on a daily basis) but I am enjoying the
time I'm spending here very much as well. ANd it's extremely active, which
is great I think.
I think I will take some time to download CoComm again (you've got to
change the name, too close to CoCo [grin]) and leave a list of complaints,
which will be rather lengthy.
And I WILL find a way to crash it, outside of another program crashing
it. It may be something bizarre, or user error, but I'll find a way. 🙂
Yes I'm enjoying it too. I used to log onto Atari 16 and see 5 messages
a day. I mean, there are -wonderful- people over there, and I miss a few
of them alot (as far as speaking to on a daily basis) but I am enjoying the
time I'm spending here very much as well. ANd it's extremely active, which
is great I think.
I think I will take some time to download CoComm again (you've got to
change the name, too close to CoCo [grin]) and leave a list of complaints,
which will be rather lengthy.
And I WILL find a way to crash it, outside of another program crashing
it. It may be something bizarre, or user error, but I'll find a way. 🙂
Want to flame CoComm? Floors open, I'm willing. I might defend it with great
fervor (if I think you're wrong – it _does_ have shortcomings, of course,
though it works very well for CIS use) but I wouldn't get 'bothered' greatly.
Currently, there are plenty of users, they seem to be happy, I'm happy, and I
did NOT charge them 300.00 dollars for the priviledge. Actually, I don't
charge them at all, unless they want the manual. The dox specifically state
if they have a problem with paying for it, they shouldn't, and they can use
it guilt-free. Commercial products are something else again; you pay good
$$$, you want it not to destroy your data. Like other companies, we try hard
to make the programs reliable – PCLO, in particular, is extermely solid…
crashing it requires outside intervention from another task; and at _that_
point, I'm willing to say it's 'not my fault'. IT's CBMs, for not building in
an MMU (Note that I didn't say they should, just that it's directly
responsible for the fact that another task can crash PCLO or any other
program easily). I do try hard, and there have been days where I've been on
the 'hot' seat here – I don't dissapear off the forum, like EA does, or C
Ltd, or MSS; I take it, deal with it in my own inimitable fashion, and keep
on going. Currently, we're involved in a major upgrade of the CAD software
that is the direct result of some 'heated' dialog, of the very same type
we've been involved in, which adds ARexx capability to the CAD tools. We got
autorouting from that, among other things – _full_ autorouting. I _like_ the
interface with the people here. Even you, who, as a new user, seem to be
focused rather strangely… that's what makes you so interesting to talk to.
–Ben–
You are mistaken about what Ben's reaction would be to flames about any of
his products. he has been flamed, royally, severely, sometimes with
justification, sometimes without. His reaction has always been to find out
first if the flames are justified. If not, he flames back. If so, he fixes
the problem and tells everyone about it.
I can't wait to experience that. 🙂
I can't wait to experience that. 🙂
You are mistaken about what Ben's reaction would be to flames about any of
his products. he has been flamed, royally, severely, sometimes with
justification, sometimes without. His reaction has always been to find out
first if the flames are justified. If not, he flames back. If so, he fixes
the problem and tells everyone about it.
I have a feeling that if someone flamed your product you'd feel quite
differently. I erased CoComm (or whatever) after booting it up for 4
minutes. If I flamed it royally and completely (and believe me, if I used it
I'd find a way to crash it) it would bother you greatly, especially
considering the work and time that you put into it.
However, I have more tact and sensitivity than that (for people other than
myself and my ego).
Ben, after using Dpaint you just "warm-boot" or Cold boot? Dpaint does at
least one thing to the system that requires a COLD BOOT. Something to do
with the mouse events (or something like that).
Um, I've just been warm-booting – that seems to clean up the free-memory
lists, which is what it walks on that catches me. I'm _sure_ it steps on
other things, tho they have yet to step on me, at least thru a three fingered
salute to EA. –Ben–
Lately, I have found that Dpaint will cause one consistent GURU in Turbo
Silver. If Dpaint has been run either before, during, or after you run
Silver, Silver will GURU in the editor when selecting the rightmost menu.
A warm-boot still affects Silver. A cold-boot is required to clean it
up….and I'm using a 2000!
Lately, I have found that Dpaint will cause one consistent GURU in Turbo
Silver. If Dpaint has been run either before, during, or after you run
Silver, Silver will GURU in the editor when selecting the rightmost menu.
A warm-boot still affects Silver. A cold-boot is required to clean it
up….and I'm using a 2000!
Ben, after using Dpaint you just "warm-boot" or Cold boot? Dpaint does at
least one thing to the system that requires a COLD BOOT. Something to do
with the mouse events (or something like that).
Dpaint II gurus while filling areas, while processing large directories
(And on a 140 meg HD, there are some large directories of images, and it
is reasonable to have them) While handling large brushes, when you click
too many time in the magnify/shrink icon with either button, when you set
antialiasing to max on some brushes (I think; I mean, you mess with this
brush, and the LAST thing you did was that, so, maybe it's that, or maybe
it's just seom other bug) Anyway, it needs work.
as far as frequency of the bug – I cannot see/load all my brushes because
there are too many in there; gets me often. I keep makeing more dis, and I
keep running out of space, and it keeps guruing. It may not be frequent for
floppy users, but it is for _me_. So I complain. I swipe everybody, ask
anyone here. <grin>. And EA is here, now and then – and when they DO show
up, I swipe them then, too. It may interest you to know that according to
THEM, I was instrumental in getting the CP removed from DPaint; I bitched
and bitched and bitched – and now we have non-cp. So it has it's uses,
sometimes. Even my abrasive style of it.
As far as gurus/software errors go, I have this crusade – I don't want to
see _any_ on my system. after using Dpaint II, I reboot; I've learned that
works everytime. –Ben–
Many of my art, picture and brush directories have more than 100 files
in them. The Dpaint requestor BUG may be "obscure" to some, but a major pain
to others. After working HOURS on a picture I go to save it. Much to my
HORROR, I lose all that work. Should I put up with that? Say "so what, it's
an obscure bug?" Ok, how about this…After working HOURS on a picture I go
to add some text. Much to my HORROR, my font directory has more fonts than
the menu will hold so I lose my work. Should I put up with *that*? I
shouldn't, but I do because EA has not fixed those problems. They do exist,
the above are not hypothtic, they did occur more than once.
Sure, it may seem I'm bashing EA, but by no means am I jumping on a bash EA
wagon. I have legitimate gripes. The program is fantastic in many ways, but
it has had problems from day one.
If EA was here, and a representative is here frequently, I would say the
exact same thing. Believe me, we are not "bashing EA all the time". Wish
you were here when Aegis got thrashed. And yes, Bill Volk was caught in the
middle.
I think your complaints are quite legitimate, and I think they'd require
a call to EA, and persistance, to get fixed. Which is why WordPerfect
Corp. is so wonderful – you don't have to beat their heads into the ground
(much to the diagreement of what some feel.)
However, I'm really wondering how much software is out there without bugs
on that calibre. I mean, honestly! I think part of the problem is that we
all own a computer with a very low share of the market, and people just
don't have the money (from sales) to devote the attention that most
products should get.
I bet you could find a way to crash most any piece of software like that
– if you used it to the degree and frequencey you use Dpaint. I can crash
Access! 1.30a and Amic. There's something to familiarity and frequency of
use that makes us see and feel bugs quickly.
Again, I'm not "excusing" or "brushing aside" (no pun intended) the very
real problems you describe. But, I think there's more to it than people
being lazy, devious people who want to crash your computer when you least
expect it. Not many people really believe what I"ve just said, but when the
"flames are on" and rationality goes out the window, hyperbole and
exaggeration can create the impressions I'm talking about.
Henry,
You say you can crash Access! 1.3a…. how? Is it easily repeatable?
Keith
It was easily repeatable, tho I don't have notes on it written down and
havn't used it for a few weeks. It had something to do with flipping in
and out of Interlace mode while on-line to a particular BBS. I'll let you
know if I get more information (the next time it happens I'll investigate
and make notes).
It was easily repeatable, tho I don't have notes on it written down and
havn't used it for a few weeks. It had something to do with flipping in
and out of Interlace mode while on-line to a particular BBS. I'll let you
know if I get more information (the next time it happens I'll investigate
and make notes).
Henry,
You say you can crash Access! 1.3a…. how? Is it easily repeatable?
Keith
I never said that they are 'being lazy, devious people who want to crash
your computer'. I'm not flaming them for that. I'm flaming them because
they haven't done anything about it in over a year. With such type of
productivity software, it should not have "major" bugs such as these. If
it does, it becomes counter productive when they occur.
You say "Which is why WordPerfect Corp. is so wonderful – you don't have to
beat their heads into the ground." So you ARE agreeing that you have to
beat their heads into the ground if they don't listen. So whats the
problem then? 🙂
ahh, you're probably right actually. The problem, though, is that
there's more than 1 point of view, and I hope to try to provide the
"possibility" of other points of view. I can only second-guess EA. They
aren't as responsive as they should be. But the act of "flames" usually is
very exaggerated and shows that a company/product/person has no merit, just
by the language used within the flame. That's not true about anybody,
except Atari.
ahh, you're probably right actually. The problem, though, is that
there's more than 1 point of view, and I hope to try to provide the
"possibility" of other points of view. I can only second-guess EA. They
aren't as responsive as they should be. But the act of "flames" usually is
very exaggerated and shows that a company/product/person has no merit, just
by the language used within the flame. That's not true about anybody,
except Atari.
I never said that they are 'being lazy, devious people who want to crash
your computer'. I'm not flaming them for that. I'm flaming them because
they haven't done anything about it in over a year. With such type of
productivity software, it should not have "major" bugs such as these. If
it does, it becomes counter productive when they occur.
You say "Which is why WordPerfect Corp. is so wonderful – you don't have to
beat their heads into the ground." So you ARE agreeing that you have to
beat their heads into the ground if they don't listen. So whats the
problem then? 🙂
I think your complaints are quite legitimate, and I think they'd require
a call to EA, and persistance, to get fixed. Which is why WordPerfect
Corp. is so wonderful – you don't have to beat their heads into the ground
(much to the diagreement of what some feel.)
However, I'm really wondering how much software is out there without bugs
on that calibre. I mean, honestly! I think part of the problem is that we
all own a computer with a very low share of the market, and people just
don't have the money (from sales) to devote the attention that most
products should get.
I bet you could find a way to crash most any piece of software like that
– if you used it to the degree and frequencey you use Dpaint. I can crash
Access! 1.30a and Amic. There's something to familiarity and frequency of
use that makes us see and feel bugs quickly.
Again, I'm not "excusing" or "brushing aside" (no pun intended) the very
real problems you describe. But, I think there's more to it than people
being lazy, devious people who want to crash your computer when you least
expect it. Not many people really believe what I"ve just said, but when the
"flames are on" and rationality goes out the window, hyperbole and
exaggeration can create the impressions I'm talking about.
Many of my art, picture and brush directories have more than 100 files
in them. The Dpaint requestor BUG may be "obscure" to some, but a major pain
to others. After working HOURS on a picture I go to save it. Much to my
HORROR, I lose all that work. Should I put up with that? Say "so what, it's
an obscure bug?" Ok, how about this…After working HOURS on a picture I go
to add some text. Much to my HORROR, my font directory has more fonts than
the menu will hold so I lose my work. Should I put up with *that*? I
shouldn't, but I do because EA has not fixed those problems. They do exist,
the above are not hypothtic, they did occur more than once.
Sure, it may seem I'm bashing EA, but by no means am I jumping on a bash EA
wagon. I have legitimate gripes. The program is fantastic in many ways, but
it has had problems from day one.
If EA was here, and a representative is here frequently, I would say the
exact same thing. Believe me, we are not "bashing EA all the time". Wish
you were here when Aegis got thrashed. And yes, Bill Volk was caught in the
middle.
I in no way said anything about worried about whether my opinion carried
any weight or not. I'm sure that, in time, I will be known around here also.
In the meantime I'm not in the least way intimidated in disagreeing with
anyone, be it a Sysop, a programmer, or a CBM official.
As I said to Larry, it "bothers" me to see EA bashing because it's not
founded in strong reasons. THe reasons that have been listed to me :
MultiTasking, copy protection, and occasional gurus, are all shared by any
number of a hundred or so companies making equally fine software for the
Amiga.
You specifically said that DPAINT II gurus alot. Upon checking with others
who use Dpaint a whole lot, I've been told that it doesn't guru at all (for
them). Including using very advanced functions. Steve said that it gurus if
there are over 100 files on the directory. Well, it does. But is that type
of bug something especially nasty and unusual? Or, to put it differently, is
there a program on the market that doesn't have a bug on that level of
frequency/obscurity? I don't think so. And that kind of bug is hardly
"alot" or "frequent".
In the meantime, in swiping EA all the time, and not swiping those
companies who also violate your rules, it seems to me that people are
"picking" on EA, which I view as an instrumental company in making the Amiga
successful. I'll also tell you another thing that bothers me. If your best
friend were an EA official, you'd probably use more tact and be more careful,
wouldn't you? I think that EA should be afforded the same courtesy even if
they do seem distant. EA isn't here and isn't part of the "click", so they
get bashed for their problems. And people enjoy it. Completely callous and
insenstive to the hours of programming development time that goes into every
EA product (and it shows).
My point is to show the "other" point of view. I'm not trying to get you
to accept it, I feel that'd be fruitless.
Listen, you can enjoy them all you like; and I can _not_ enjoy them all _I_
like; It is a fact that I would enjoy playing some games – and those that
will multitask, I can in fact play. I cannot, however, crash my system to
play around in some cave – or fly a plane. I don't even use jet but vercy
rarely, because it's broken (breaks everything else, read that as) and I need
my system available for real work. I _do_ have some text adventures that run
very nicely in their own windows, and I love them. All my ham radio stuff
multitasks, too – even the fax stuff, which stops tasking at critical times,
doesn't destroy the system, and can be paused at ANY time to run the rest of
the stuff. I'm just as quick to cast aspersions on CoCo games – they're
broken too; they don't run on my hardware… no difference, in my opinion. It
is a fact that we are here to share our views, and I just want to point out
that here (and almost nowhere else<grin>) Larry and I share a common
viewpoint, that's all. If our opinions carry a lot of weight, it's only
because we're both very active here, both accomplished in the Amiga territory
(read, productive, well known, positive reputations most ways). If you're
upset because you feel your words don't carry the same clout, there's only
one solution… Get Crackin! <grin>. Really though – it's my opinion – why
does it bother you so? –Ben–
Henry, I don't think Ben is singling out EA (your aren't are you
Ben??). I have a second Amiga so that the kids can play some of the games
because the authors/publishers DON'T SEEM TO REALIZE THAT SOME MACHINES CAN
NOT -REPEAT- NOT ARBITRARILY BE REBOOTED. If they want to treat the Amiga as
a total resource to play their idiotic little things, fine, but they will
NEVER run on this machine, because I can't afford to stop everything because
THEY ARE TOO $&#**^% LAZY TO DO THE JOB RIGHT.
I agree it's a matter of the glass being half full or half empty, but
when you have a FULL GLASS TO START WITH, IT'S STUPID TO THROW HALF OF IT
AWAY. <flame down to moderate>
Nah, I'm not singling out EA. I think they exemplify the things I don't like
about games on the machine, maybe because they so many _wrong_, but by all
means there are others. WP corp, for instance. <grin>. Anyone who uses a
dongle, especially superbase (cause it's such a nice program otherwise)
anyone who forces me to use their directories… Softwood come to mind there;
people who make hardware that I can't write stuff for (Mimetics, bunch of
&^%$%^&#, they scratched off the IC numbers and won't give with data) Tecmar
for being, well, never mind. Manx for making a high-performance C compiler
that doesn't conform; (didn't); Larry, because he likes Modula (Hi, Larry :^)
CBM for Transformer, the a2000, the port on the a500, the power supply for
the a500, the not-yet-or-ever-available '020 board, the ram disk, the serial
device, the rename command, the workbench bugs/incompatabilities, the
developer requirements, their ~marketing, their non-add-on-support, their
complete lack of support for users' hardware problems, the ~memory cards for
the sidecar, the sidecar itself (gee, I guess I have this fire burning
here… <stamp> <stamp> <stamp>) um, anybody who cp's anything. On the other
hand;
My favorite programs/companies are: Innovatronics for PowerWindows 2.0; ADSG
for VD0:; Eagle tree for Butcher 2.0 (Best price/performance award to eagle
tree) MicroIllusions for PhotonPaint; Progressive for pixmate; whoever
_really_ wrote musicraft for it; New wave, for dynamic drums, Aegis for
Drawplus (slow, but I _like_ it) And of course, SoftCircuits, for several
things that I actually use – mostly ham stuff. –Ben–
There is no logical reason why you should continue to flame WP Corp.
There is no logical reason why you should continue to flame WP Corp.
Nah, I'm not singling out EA. I think they exemplify the things I don't like
about games on the machine, maybe because they so many _wrong_, but by all
means there are others. WP corp, for instance. <grin>. Anyone who uses a
dongle, especially superbase (cause it's such a nice program otherwise)
anyone who forces me to use their directories… Softwood come to mind there;
people who make hardware that I can't write stuff for (Mimetics, bunch of
&^%$%^&#, they scratched off the IC numbers and won't give with data) Tecmar
for being, well, never mind. Manx for making a high-performance C compiler
that doesn't conform; (didn't); Larry, because he likes Modula (Hi, Larry :^)
CBM for Transformer, the a2000, the port on the a500, the power supply for
the a500, the not-yet-or-ever-available '020 board, the ram disk, the serial
device, the rename command, the workbench bugs/incompatabilities, the
developer requirements, their ~marketing, their non-add-on-support, their
complete lack of support for users' hardware problems, the ~memory cards for
the sidecar, the sidecar itself (gee, I guess I have this fire burning
here… <stamp> <stamp> <stamp>) um, anybody who cp's anything. On the other
hand;
My favorite programs/companies are: Innovatronics for PowerWindows 2.0; ADSG
for VD0:; Eagle tree for Butcher 2.0 (Best price/performance award to eagle
tree) MicroIllusions for PhotonPaint; Progressive for pixmate; whoever
_really_ wrote musicraft for it; New wave, for dynamic drums, Aegis for
Drawplus (slow, but I _like_ it) And of course, SoftCircuits, for several
things that I actually use – mostly ham stuff. –Ben–
It depends where you draw the line I guess. I mean, you could go around
saying "I WON'T BUY A SINGLE PROGRAM THAT WON'T MULTITASK, HAVVVVE LOTS OF
ICONS AND PULL-DOWN MENUS, NO COPY PROTECTION, THAT BOOTS WHEN IT PLAYS MOON
RIVVVER, WHICH IS MY FAVVORITE SONG, AND HAS NO BLUE COLORS IN IT, BECAUSE I
HATE THE COLOR BLUE".
You have every right to do so, but there ARE plenty of people who don't
subscribe to those beliefs. I don't mind a non-multitasking game, because if
I play a game I want to relax and forget the productivity stuff.
I also don't mind copy protected games because I've never had a game disk
go bad and if it did my life wouldn't be over. And I also sympathize with
those who lose 50% of their sales to theft.
I hope you sympathize with those of us who provide NON cp'd software in spite
of the prevailing attitudes, too. I'd rather be right than rich. I'd hate to
sign on and find messages that say "It don't work no more", or, "I saved my
configuration and the disk went bad" or "I can't put it on my hard drive"
<shudder> or "the &^%$#@! dongle blew out my paula chip!" Oy. –Ben–
Of course I sympathise. And if it's a game, as a dealer, I'll see it sell
for maybe 3 or 4 days. We'll sell the first 4 we get in and the rest of the
community gets it exponentially from those copies.
Of course, we may see some who come in and ask for buying manuals and only
manuals in the next few weeks. (duh)
Of course I sympathise. And if it's a game, as a dealer, I'll see it sell
for maybe 3 or 4 days. We'll sell the first 4 we get in and the rest of the
community gets it exponentially from those copies.
Of course, we may see some who come in and ask for buying manuals and only
manuals in the next few weeks. (duh)
Oopps sympathize was wrong word – appreciate. Tell me of a good game that
has sold over 25,000 copies that wasn't copy protected. And didn't require
a big manual like Flight Simulator. Name a few. I dare ya.
(grin)
I can't – I don't generally play games, since most of them break the
system… and as I used to write arcade games, many of the Amiga games
leave me pretty cold – poor use of the system. Unfortunatly, there is no
$$$ in making games for theives – so I stick to CAD and other high-tech
stuff. –Ben–
So what do you do Ben?? You say "there is no $$$ in making games for
thieves". Then you complain about copy-protection.
The wording of your messages seems to imply that you have absolutely no
sympathy whatsoever for copy protected games. I'm not saying you have to
LIKE or AGREE WITH copy protection, but if you can't sympathise or
understand it, I think you're being very unfair.
So what do you do Ben?? You say "there is no $$$ in making games for
thieves". Then you complain about copy-protection.
The wording of your messages seems to imply that you have absolutely no
sympathy whatsoever for copy protected games. I'm not saying you have to
LIKE or AGREE WITH copy protection, but if you can't sympathise or
understand it, I think you're being very unfair.
I can't – I don't generally play games, since most of them break the
system… and as I used to write arcade games, many of the Amiga games
leave me pretty cold – poor use of the system. Unfortunatly, there is no
$$$ in making games for theives – so I stick to CAD and other high-tech
stuff. –Ben–
Well, I can come up with one that folows the rules. Ports of Call. It
multitasks, allows copies without fuss or bother, and is 'soft' protected
using _simple_ questions about the manual. That kind of protection I can
live with in a game. It doesn't require re-booting and lives on its own
screen. It seems to 'sleep' when not in use, so it doesn't hog the CPU. It
uses overlays in an inteligent manner, keeping those resident when it can
or using disk access when it can't and is quite addicting.
That's one. 8)
Gee, a positive message. And a relaxing and calm one at that. I think
I'll sit here and stare at it for a half an hour. 🙂
Gee, a positive message. And a relaxing and calm one at that. I think
I'll sit here and stare at it for a half an hour. 🙂
Well, I can come up with one that folows the rules. Ports of Call. It
multitasks, allows copies without fuss or bother, and is 'soft' protected
using _simple_ questions about the manual. That kind of protection I can
live with in a game. It doesn't require re-booting and lives on its own
screen. It seems to 'sleep' when not in use, so it doesn't hog the CPU. It
uses overlays in an inteligent manner, keeping those resident when it can
or using disk access when it can't and is quite addicting.
That's one. 8)
Oopps sympathize was wrong word – appreciate. Tell me of a good game that
has sold over 25,000 copies that wasn't copy protected. And didn't require
a big manual like Flight Simulator. Name a few. I dare ya.
(grin)
I hope you sympathize with those of us who provide NON cp'd software in spite
of the prevailing attitudes, too. I'd rather be right than rich. I'd hate to
sign on and find messages that say "It don't work no more", or, "I saved my
configuration and the disk went bad" or "I can't put it on my hard drive"
<shudder> or "the &^%$#@! dongle blew out my paula chip!" Oy. –Ben–
When I play a game I like to forget the productivity stuff too. That does
not mean that I want it to stop operating. It does not mean that I want to
have to go through a reboot to get back to it later. It also means that i
don't want to have to hunt up a floppy or a manual or a dongle and wait for
the thing to load from floppy. I want to type its name and see it there in
a few seconds, at well over 10 times the speed. I sympathize with the
losses to theft as well, but Cp doesn't stop the theft, so I resent it. A
lot.
I agree. Copy protection doesn't stop theft. But it gives the publishers
a false sense of "control". I think that's the psychological reason
behind copy protection, if it doesn't do anything it at least lets those
programmers feel like it's helping. They don't have any control whatsoever
over people buying a game and cracking it at home and passing around
copies. That must be a really horrifying experience.
Let's put it this way – I bet if you were Chairman of the Board at EA, and
looked at the charts of dollars lost to theft, numbers of items lost to
theft, and what the size of the industry would be without theft. Imagine
big graphics painted on an HP PaintJet with MaxxiPlan of those statistics.
Imagine you are Chairman of the Board at Sublogic. I bet you'd be on the
phone looking for the newest most advanced form of copy protection made
yet. I think that most of the people who gripe about copy protection, if
not all, would act the same way if put in that situation.
SubLogic AND Electronic Arts are moving AWAY from copy protection. My copy
of JET is NOT, repeat NOT copy protected. It DOES crash my machine, and so
is rarely used, but it's halfway to being real software. –Ben–
SubLogic AND Electronic Arts are moving AWAY from copy protection. My copy
of JET is NOT, repeat NOT copy protected. It DOES crash my machine, and so
is rarely used, but it's halfway to being real software. –Ben–
I am not 'most people'. I don't know, and don't particularly care what
'most people' wuld do if they were in the position of looking at the
numbers from the vendor's viewpoint. I know what I would do. Put out the
best product I knew how to put out, at the best price i could put it out
at, and offer the best support I could for it. Since I know that CP does
not stop theft, why would I further erode my profits by spending money
adding copy protection to the product? It's useless, and further, if the
vendor _knows_ that it doesn't do any good, it's _stupidity_ to put it in.
I am not 'most people'. I don't know, and don't particularly care what
'most people' wuld do if they were in the position of looking at the
numbers from the vendor's viewpoint. I know what I would do. Put out the
best product I knew how to put out, at the best price i could put it out
at, and offer the best support I could for it. Since I know that CP does
not stop theft, why would I further erode my profits by spending money
adding copy protection to the product? It's useless, and further, if the
vendor _knows_ that it doesn't do any good, it's _stupidity_ to put it in.
I agree. Copy protection doesn't stop theft. But it gives the publishers
a false sense of "control". I think that's the psychological reason
behind copy protection, if it doesn't do anything it at least lets those
programmers feel like it's helping. They don't have any control whatsoever
over people buying a game and cracking it at home and passing around
copies. That must be a really horrifying experience.
Let's put it this way – I bet if you were Chairman of the Board at EA, and
looked at the charts of dollars lost to theft, numbers of items lost to
theft, and what the size of the industry would be without theft. Imagine
big graphics painted on an HP PaintJet with MaxxiPlan of those statistics.
Imagine you are Chairman of the Board at Sublogic. I bet you'd be on the
phone looking for the newest most advanced form of copy protection made
yet. I think that most of the people who gripe about copy protection, if
not all, would act the same way if put in that situation.
When I play a game I like to forget the productivity stuff too. That does
not mean that I want it to stop operating. It does not mean that I want to
have to go through a reboot to get back to it later. It also means that i
don't want to have to hunt up a floppy or a manual or a dongle and wait for
the thing to load from floppy. I want to type its name and see it there in
a few seconds, at well over 10 times the speed. I sympathize with the
losses to theft as well, but Cp doesn't stop the theft, so I resent it. A
lot.
It depends where you draw the line I guess. I mean, you could go around
saying "I WON'T BUY A SINGLE PROGRAM THAT WON'T MULTITASK, HAVVVVE LOTS OF
ICONS AND PULL-DOWN MENUS, NO COPY PROTECTION, THAT BOOTS WHEN IT PLAYS MOON
RIVVVER, WHICH IS MY FAVVORITE SONG, AND HAS NO BLUE COLORS IN IT, BECAUSE I
HATE THE COLOR BLUE".
You have every right to do so, but there ARE plenty of people who don't
subscribe to those beliefs. I don't mind a non-multitasking game, because if
I play a game I want to relax and forget the productivity stuff.
I also don't mind copy protected games because I've never had a game disk
go bad and if it did my life wouldn't be over. And I also sympathize with
those who lose 50% of their sales to theft.
Henry, I don't think Ben is singling out EA (your aren't are you
Ben??). I have a second Amiga so that the kids can play some of the games
because the authors/publishers DON'T SEEM TO REALIZE THAT SOME MACHINES CAN
NOT -REPEAT- NOT ARBITRARILY BE REBOOTED. If they want to treat the Amiga as
a total resource to play their idiotic little things, fine, but they will
NEVER run on this machine, because I can't afford to stop everything because
THEY ARE TOO $&#**^% LAZY TO DO THE JOB RIGHT.
I agree it's a matter of the glass being half full or half empty, but
when you have a FULL GLASS TO START WITH, IT'S STUPID TO THROW HALF OF IT
AWAY. <flame down to moderate>
I slight programs that are broken. When I am forced to reboot because a
program won't let me exit, it is crashed. Borken, Munged. period. That
there are hundreds of them matters not a whit. They are all broken.
I slight programs that are broken. When I am forced to reboot because a
program won't let me exit, it is crashed. Borken, Munged. period. That
there are hundreds of them matters not a whit. They are all broken.
Well you've just slighted hundreds of wonderful programs (like Larry).
There's Faery Tale, Ultima, EA products, Silent Service, and hundreds more.
It's a matter of the glass of water being half empty or half full. Some can
choose to live in a corner and cast dispersions and hatred toward game
companies that don't allow multitasking. Others of us, however, live with it
and enjoy the products.
I don't agree with singling EA out either.
I'll tell you something frankly, and from a developers point of view; if it
doesn't multitask, it's broken, with the single exception of certain
simulations and games that require all the machines resources time wise; and
they STILL do not have to crash the machine, they can simply shut off the
tasking. There are very clean mechanisms to do it. Certain signal anaylisis
programs may also require the system's resources for a short time – agin,
(again) there is no need to crash the system to get them. It's slop
programming, and that's ALL it is. You shouldn't treat this machine like it
was a c64; doing so shows you (the developer in question, EA, for instance)
as an amatuer. –Ben–
Well, Henry, I guess this is one of those instances where we'll have to agree
to disagree (and I thought this only happened with Larry! :). I don't
understand why you insist on representing EA as a company that's been
persecuted on this forum. I don't believe that's the case at all. Something
you might want to consider is that if EA's programs were all of the same
quality as other company's programs EA would statistically have a higher
chance of getting complaints just because of their prevalence. I think that
people here have the idea that EA stuff is at least tested somewhat before
release, a feeling that isn't always replicated with other company's
products.
As you said before, business is business, and regardless of what we
say here EA will stay in business as long as they feel the monetary return is
rewarding enough. I feel no responsibility towards stroking them to keep
them happy, and if I don't like something they're doing I'm bloody well going
to let them know. That includes leaving messages here to rally support. I
have no argument with you saying what you wish, but I DO object strongly to
the idea that people should gag themselves to avoid hurting EA's collective
feelings.
Ariel
I'm not saying people should avoid the negative at all. God knows I got into
trouble over and over again with the Atari community by telling everyone how
screwed up Atari was (and is) and no one (of course) wanted to hear it.
However, I don't believe in the other side of the coin – a person should
constantly gripe and moan and never recognize the positive things.
And what do you expect people to say when you paint a rosy picture of EA
that doesn't mention any of the shortcomings at all? Of course you're going
to hear about the negative. If you'd been talking about ANY other company,
the result would not have been significantly different.
How about if I leave an all negative message about EA right now. Then you
leave an all positive one when you read this.
I hate how they are gobbling up companies right and left and releasing some
very buggy products under their "affiliated labels" and don't test the
products themselves.
I hate how they don't update the Deluxe Series, or improve them with the
times, as much as they should.
I hate the manual for Ferrarri Formula One.
I hate how they gripe about piracy, but have yet to do anything themselves,
as a company to help control the problem, other than copy protection. I
told EA about an outfit in a magazine that rented software (copies
nonetheless). They dpid nothing – the rep just shrugged his shoulders.
I hate how they ALWAYS pester dealers to buy direct from them instead of
from distributors.f
I hate how they release a piece of junk software, then lower the price 45
days later before you've had a chance to stock balance them, and you're
stuck.
I hate SkyFox II. It's the most horrid piece of software written by man,
except perhaps Racing Destruction Set.
How's that?
You've finally seen the light! <grin>
You've finally seen the light! <grin>
OK…. I don't see anything wrong with 'gobbling up companies', as you
put it. Perhaps if you could name some products that are put out under
'affiliated labels', I might find something to agree with.
DPaintII is mostly a good product, and it was the first paint program
out, regardless of a few problems with fonts and file requesters.
i think the president has a neat name.
🙂
-larry
Oh come on, you can do better than that!
Oh come on, you can do better than that!
OK…. I don't see anything wrong with 'gobbling up companies', as you
put it. Perhaps if you could name some products that are put out under
'affiliated labels', I might find something to agree with.
DPaintII is mostly a good product, and it was the first paint program
out, regardless of a few problems with fonts and file requesters.
i think the president has a neat name.
🙂
-larry
How about if I leave an all negative message about EA right now. Then you
leave an all positive one when you read this.
I hate how they are gobbling up companies right and left and releasing some
very buggy products under their "affiliated labels" and don't test the
products themselves.
I hate how they don't update the Deluxe Series, or improve them with the
times, as much as they should.
I hate the manual for Ferrarri Formula One.
I hate how they gripe about piracy, but have yet to do anything themselves,
as a company to help control the problem, other than copy protection. I
told EA about an outfit in a magazine that rented software (copies
nonetheless). They dpid nothing – the rep just shrugged his shoulders.
I hate how they ALWAYS pester dealers to buy direct from them instead of
from distributors.f
I hate how they release a piece of junk software, then lower the price 45
days later before you've had a chance to stock balance them, and you're
stuck.
I hate SkyFox II. It's the most horrid piece of software written by man,
except perhaps Racing Destruction Set.
How's that?
And what do you expect people to say when you paint a rosy picture of EA
that doesn't mention any of the shortcomings at all? Of course you're going
to hear about the negative. If you'd been talking about ANY other company,
the result would not have been significantly different.
I'm not saying people should avoid the negative at all. God knows I got into
trouble over and over again with the Atari community by telling everyone how
screwed up Atari was (and is) and no one (of course) wanted to hear it.
However, I don't believe in the other side of the coin – a person should
constantly gripe and moan and never recognize the positive things.
Well, Henry, I guess this is one of those instances where we'll have to agree
to disagree (and I thought this only happened with Larry! :). I don't
understand why you insist on representing EA as a company that's been
persecuted on this forum. I don't believe that's the case at all. Something
you might want to consider is that if EA's programs were all of the same
quality as other company's programs EA would statistically have a higher
chance of getting complaints just because of their prevalence. I think that
people here have the idea that EA stuff is at least tested somewhat before
release, a feeling that isn't always replicated with other company's
products.
As you said before, business is business, and regardless of what we
say here EA will stay in business as long as they feel the monetary return is
rewarding enough. I feel no responsibility towards stroking them to keep
them happy, and if I don't like something they're doing I'm bloody well going
to let them know. That includes leaving messages here to rally support. I
have no argument with you saying what you wish, but I DO object strongly to
the idea that people should gag themselves to avoid hurting EA's collective
feelings.
Ariel
Henry,
Before you accuse me of picking on EA exclusively, i suggest you go back
over this thread. You will see that it was a thread that was started by
someone other than myself, and that it was already about EA as well as the
philosophy of programs for the Amiga before I made any comments about their
software.
That 'LOTS' of hames for the Amiga are copy protected matters not a whit to
me as I feel the same way about all of them. You asked for comments about EA
software by stating that you thought they were getting bad press without
justification. i responded with concrete examples. Don't tell me I single out
EA for bashing. If you had spent the past year or so on the Amigaforum you
would know that I speak my mind on any and all software, and give my
opinions, along with the rerasons for those opinions, no matter whose product
it is. In addition, when a company does a particularly good job, whwther it
be in products offered or service or any other way, i applaud them for it.
When the opposite is true, i slam them. I think you are confusing strong
opinions on software with 'slamming with enthusiasm'. i will admit that I am
equally enthusiastic about praising the good and panning the bad.
No, I would not have a different view of things if I was selling software. I
would not sell a program that was copy protected. If I did, I would expect to
hear from users like myself that I was doing the wrong thing. It's the
decision of the vendor to protect or not, and it's mine to buy or not.
Simple, elegant, and makes perfect economic sense.
I wish you would read the 'reprehensible attitude' comments again. I am
saying that they are focusing their efforts in the wrong areas. That's my
opinion, and i stick by it.
So what's wrong with saving high scores to a different disk? They made th
choice. I have my opinions of that choice. Again, simple and elegant. Their
choice has directly determined how much money they can expect from my pocket.
-larry
I don't know what's wrong with saving scores to a separate disk. In fact,
there's nothing wrong with it – but my point is that nothing does it! I can
think of a small handful of games that do that – but most games don' t. I
think that broad generalizations like "I won't buy that game if it doesn't
multitask" or "I won't buy that game if it doesn't save high scores" are
limitations that are going to keep you from experiencing a whole lot of
software. Which is your choice, of course.
But the sentiment I see on this board is a bashing of the entire company and
anything/everything that they have ever done. I've been talking to I thinkm
5 people on the subject, and the only person that's said a thing positive
about EA the entire time has been Steve.
I hope that by presenting an alternate point of view, those who are reading
this thread may see that there is indeed an alternate point of view, and that
EA isn't some devious group of people who write junk software that gurus
every five minutes, which is the impression that some of the messages do
certainly give. I did take the time to re-read through the thread, and it
does appear to me that you were bashing the whole company. If that's not
what you intended, or if I'm misinterpreting, then I understand better now.
I still haven't received what I consider to be an adquate explanation for the
EA bashing I've seen. You presented a list of ideas for what you perceive as
reasons for EA bashing, but those reasons could be true of dozens of
companies, (including the heralded Micro Illusions) and don't explain why EA
always gets it. If not from you than from others – notice how easy it was to
start an anti-EA campaign and the small percentage of positive comments from
what I feel to be some very strong products. The only explanation I see is
that it's the "in" thing to do.
Copy protection, occasional crashing, and non-multitasking are faults of many
many other companies that don't experience the bad press.
Well Henry, I think you have misinterpreted what I've said. If the thread
had been about Micro-Illusions, and if I knew what they produced, and if I
didn't like their programs, for whatever reason, it would have been those
that I commented on. I still hold up Mindwalker as the ultimate in a
properly done game.
MicroIllusions also has some heavily copy-protected games that don't
multitask. They are a company that Amiga people should revere, however,
because they got their start in Amiga in a big way with Faery Tale
Adventure and their modem series (one on one). They are currently
branching into other computers.
They are another excellent company with excellent products, like EA.
Henry,
I don't have either of those games. They are not my kind of game. if they
were, and if I could not run them from HD I would not buy them.
-larry
A question? What is the problem with "games" not running on a hard Disk?
Ive spent a lot of time and money to get programs that I bought in a form
were they might work on my harddisk. This "Protection" barf is a pain to
everyone. And little more than a joke to the people they are protecting
against. (in most cases anyways)
Jay,
I don't think that I should have to pay again, in money or time, to make a
program that I already paid for usable. Therre was a time when i would have
spent the time, but I have more productive things to do now than to try to
rectify some vendors futile attempts at protection that only serves to annoy
and inconvenience the honest purchaser. I would consider buying a program
that's copy protected if I could have someone run it through Marauder for me
and make it usable, but I won't buy anything from Discovery.
-larry
Jay,
I don't think that I should have to pay again, in money or time, to make a
program that I already paid for usable. Therre was a time when i would have
spent the time, but I have more productive things to do now than to try to
rectify some vendors futile attempts at protection that only serves to annoy
and inconvenience the honest purchaser. I would consider buying a program
that's copy protected if I could have someone run it through Marauder for me
and make it usable, but I won't buy anything from Discovery.
-larry
A question? What is the problem with "games" not running on a hard Disk?
Ive spent a lot of time and money to get programs that I bought in a form
were they might work on my harddisk. This "Protection" barf is a pain to
everyone. And little more than a joke to the people they are protecting
against. (in most cases anyways)
Henry,
I don't have either of those games. They are not my kind of game. if they
were, and if I could not run them from HD I would not buy them.
-larry
I don't think it's my responsibility to revere any software company. In
my time as an Amigaphile (or should it be Amigan?) I have discovered
absolutely *no* software houses worthy of my un- guarded loyalty. I praise
'em when they do good, and flame 'em when they screw up. Sure, EA has done
alot for the Amiga community with their early and continued support of the
machine. They deserve kudos for that. More power to 'em. But that
doesn't stop me from turning on the gas jets when I feel they deserve it.
There is no conspiracy here against EA. EA is bound to receive more
criticism than most other companies simply because they market such a large
volume of Amiga software. More titles means more complaints. The downside
of greater visibility is that you present a bigger target to potential
flamethrowers.
Another factor to toss into the mix is this: anti-copy-protection
[and, seemingly–but not really–conversely, anti-piracy] sentiment
on this forum is very strong, and for very good reasons.
1) Copy-protection doesn't protect anything. Period.
2) Copy-protection often interferes with streamlined, fluid use
of the Amiga's multitasking OS. I lose more in decreased
productivity than I gain in gaming enjoyment by rebooting my
system with so-and-so's latest whiz-bang, copy-protected,
singletasking effort.
Any software firm that consistently employs system-crippling CP
methods–EA for example–is bound (and deserves) to get repeatedly
slammed. The aim of such criticism isn't us getting our rocks off
with cynical, holier-than-thou, aren't-we-enlightened smugness. Nor
is it indulging in smear campaigns or personal vendettas against
specific companies. The aim is convincing said software firms to
change their CP policies. Perhaps the slamming isn't always con-
structive, but I think it's nearly always intended to be.
I hope this hasn't sounded like a "Shut up, Henry!" message, 'cuz it
isn't. I just think you haven't been giving Ben and Larry a fair shake.
Sure, they'll cut down a product or a company if they think it deserves
cutting down. That's their right, just as it's your right to take issue.
But, on the other hand, they're also quick to give something or someone a
plug if they think such is merited or deserved. Anyway, that's my five
cents (the cost of comments went up along with postage) worth.
I don't think it's my responsibility to revere any software company. In
my time as an Amigaphile (or should it be Amigan?) I have discovered
absolutely *no* software houses worthy of my un- guarded loyalty. I praise
'em when they do good, and flame 'em when they screw up. Sure, EA has done
alot for the Amiga community with their early and continued support of the
machine. They deserve kudos for that. More power to 'em. But that
doesn't stop me from turning on the gas jets when I feel they deserve it.
There is no conspiracy here against EA. EA is bound to receive more
criticism than most other companies simply because they market such a large
volume of Amiga software. More titles means more complaints. The downside
of greater visibility is that you present a bigger target to potential
flamethrowers.
Another factor to toss into the mix is this: anti-copy-protection
[and, seemingly–but not really–conversely, anti-piracy] sentiment
on this forum is very strong, and for very good reasons.
1) Copy-protection doesn't protect anything. Period.
2) Copy-protection often interferes with streamlined, fluid use
of the Amiga's multitasking OS. I lose more in decreased
productivity than I gain in gaming enjoyment by rebooting my
system with so-and-so's latest whiz-bang, copy-protected,
singletasking effort.
Any software firm that consistently employs system-crippling CP
methods–EA for example–is bound (and deserves) to get repeatedly
slammed. The aim of such criticism isn't us getting our rocks off
with cynical, holier-than-thou, aren't-we-enlightened smugness. Nor
is it indulging in smear campaigns or personal vendettas against
specific companies. The aim is convincing said software firms to
change their CP policies. Perhaps the slamming isn't always con-
structive, but I think it's nearly always intended to be.
I hope this hasn't sounded like a "Shut up, Henry!" message, 'cuz it
isn't. I just think you haven't been giving Ben and Larry a fair shake.
Sure, they'll cut down a product or a company if they think it deserves
cutting down. That's their right, just as it's your right to take issue.
But, on the other hand, they're also quick to give something or someone a
plug if they think such is merited or deserved. Anyway, that's my five
cents (the cost of comments went up along with postage) worth.
I guess you never tried to use Dynamic-CAD. <big grin> –Ben–
D Y N A M I C – C A D UGGGGGG!!!!! You said the "D" word!!!!!
D Y N A M I C – C A D UGGGGGG!!!!! You said the "D" word!!!!!
MicroIllusions also has some heavily copy-protected games that don't
multitask. They are a company that Amiga people should revere, however,
because they got their start in Amiga in a big way with Faery Tale
Adventure and their modem series (one on one). They are currently
branching into other computers.
They are another excellent company with excellent products, like EA.
That puzzle with the changing images on it is a VERY clever idea too.
'Tis a shame they couldn't have the image moving while you were moving the
piece around, though.
Vic,
That _would_ be nice! It is certainly feasible. DPaint does it.
-larry
IMHO that is the only fine touch an otherwise spectacular program needs
to make it perfect. Well……………I wish I could win a game now and
then……..ever in fact <smmiiille>
Vic, when you finally win a game turn your speakers up LOUD! 🙂 There is a
great tune at the end….very nice! But then, you wouldn't expect less from
a game that already has the BEST sound effects around! 🙂
GreG
Vic, when you finally win a game turn your speakers up LOUD! 🙂 There is a
great tune at the end….very nice! But then, you wouldn't expect less from
a game that already has the BEST sound effects around! 🙂
GreG
I won once… nice! Never have won again, and would really like to.
-larry
I won once… nice! Never have won again, and would really like to.
-larry
IMHO that is the only fine touch an otherwise spectacular program needs
to make it perfect. Well……………I wish I could win a game now and
then……..ever in fact <smmiiille>
Vic,
That _would_ be nice! It is certainly feasible. DPaint does it.
-larry
That puzzle with the changing images on it is a VERY clever idea too.
'Tis a shame they couldn't have the image moving while you were moving the
piece around, though.
Well Henry, I think you have misinterpreted what I've said. If the thread
had been about Micro-Illusions, and if I knew what they produced, and if I
didn't like their programs, for whatever reason, it would have been those
that I commented on. I still hold up Mindwalker as the ultimate in a
properly done game.
I don't know what's wrong with saving scores to a separate disk. In fact,
there's nothing wrong with it – but my point is that nothing does it! I can
think of a small handful of games that do that – but most games don' t. I
think that broad generalizations like "I won't buy that game if it doesn't
multitask" or "I won't buy that game if it doesn't save high scores" are
limitations that are going to keep you from experiencing a whole lot of
software. Which is your choice, of course.
But the sentiment I see on this board is a bashing of the entire company and
anything/everything that they have ever done. I've been talking to I thinkm
5 people on the subject, and the only person that's said a thing positive
about EA the entire time has been Steve.
I hope that by presenting an alternate point of view, those who are reading
this thread may see that there is indeed an alternate point of view, and that
EA isn't some devious group of people who write junk software that gurus
every five minutes, which is the impression that some of the messages do
certainly give. I did take the time to re-read through the thread, and it
does appear to me that you were bashing the whole company. If that's not
what you intended, or if I'm misinterpreting, then I understand better now.
I still haven't received what I consider to be an adquate explanation for the
EA bashing I've seen. You presented a list of ideas for what you perceive as
reasons for EA bashing, but those reasons could be true of dozens of
companies, (including the heralded Micro Illusions) and don't explain why EA
always gets it. If not from you than from others – notice how easy it was to
start an anti-EA campaign and the small percentage of positive comments from
what I feel to be some very strong products. The only explanation I see is
that it's the "in" thing to do.
Copy protection, occasional crashing, and non-multitasking are faults of many
many other companies that don't experience the bad press.
Henry,
Before you accuse me of picking on EA exclusively, i suggest you go back
over this thread. You will see that it was a thread that was started by
someone other than myself, and that it was already about EA as well as the
philosophy of programs for the Amiga before I made any comments about their
software.
That 'LOTS' of hames for the Amiga are copy protected matters not a whit to
me as I feel the same way about all of them. You asked for comments about EA
software by stating that you thought they were getting bad press without
justification. i responded with concrete examples. Don't tell me I single out
EA for bashing. If you had spent the past year or so on the Amigaforum you
would know that I speak my mind on any and all software, and give my
opinions, along with the rerasons for those opinions, no matter whose product
it is. In addition, when a company does a particularly good job, whwther it
be in products offered or service or any other way, i applaud them for it.
When the opposite is true, i slam them. I think you are confusing strong
opinions on software with 'slamming with enthusiasm'. i will admit that I am
equally enthusiastic about praising the good and panning the bad.
No, I would not have a different view of things if I was selling software. I
would not sell a program that was copy protected. If I did, I would expect to
hear from users like myself that I was doing the wrong thing. It's the
decision of the vendor to protect or not, and it's mine to buy or not.
Simple, elegant, and makes perfect economic sense.
I wish you would read the 'reprehensible attitude' comments again. I am
saying that they are focusing their efforts in the wrong areas. That's my
opinion, and i stick by it.
So what's wrong with saving high scores to a different disk? They made th
choice. I have my opinions of that choice. Again, simple and elegant. Their
choice has directly determined how much money they can expect from my pocket.
-larry
From what I've seen in Amiga games in my short-lived experience (and I've
seen a whole lot, working at a store) there are very few games (many
excellent) that you would have the same gripes about. There's the CinemeWare
series with some excellent games (and some not so hot), there's Ultima, and
many many others.
However for some reason you do seem to be singling out EA. How many games
are copy protected? LOTS. Why do you single out Electronic Arts so
constantly and with such enthusiasm?
Personally I think the problem is that your expecations are too high. If
you experienced -everything- from the developer's point of view – including
sales lost to theft, effort taking in multitasking the program (do you know
how many calls WP gets about crashes that are due to other things
multitasking with it and crashing? lots..) you'd have a different point of
view.
Until then, there's very little that you're going to be happy with. And I
think that's an indication of too-high expectations. Especially considering
your term "reprehensible" atttitude. I bet if you went over to EA and saw
charts graphing profits made, development costs, etc., you'd have a different
feeling.
I have excepted the fact that not everything I buy forever is always going
to take full advantage of my computer. I had alot of 8 bit Atari software
that had no idea what SpartaDos, a USDoubler, or expanded memory was. And
some of that software was still excellent.
As for not saving high scores on Mable Madness, again that's common of MANY
games. You know what people say when it does save games? "It's going to
trash the disk one day" they whine. Not saving high scores is common among
hundreds of EA and hundreds of non-EA games. But for some reason, alot of
people relish picking on EA solely, and I don't think it's for valid reasons.
I agree with your comments about EA. One thing that really bothers me is the
problem DPAINTII has with a large number of FONTS. Isint the Amiga all about
"Soft Fonts" Isint a program like DPAINT supposed to be able to use more
than a handfull? Unbelievable for a big outfit like EA to let big problems
like this continue. Maybe they are all off playing the bongos or something??
Jay,
Thanks.
Right on about font problems.
Yes.
Yes.
It is.
probably.
-larry
Jay,
Thanks.
Right on about font problems.
Yes.
Yes.
It is.
probably.
-larry
I agree with your comments about EA. One thing that really bothers me is the
problem DPAINTII has with a large number of FONTS. Isint the Amiga all about
"Soft Fonts" Isint a program like DPAINT supposed to be able to use more
than a handfull? Unbelievable for a big outfit like EA to let big problems
like this continue. Maybe they are all off playing the bongos or something??
You also quoted me innacurately and out of context when you said I called
EA 'reprehensible' for not having analog joystick support. WEhat I _did_ say
was thet I felt that it was a reprehensible attitude to leave out analog
support in favour of a little more digitized sound. I also feel that it is
reprehensible to leave out any feature that contributes to the purpose of the
program in favur of glitz and glitter. Yes, it may sell more programs if the
glitz is there, but that does not change my feeling about it, and does not
benefit me. "So what if it doesn't have a steering wheel… look at that
beautiful racing stripe."
As for WP… well, I can't comment on the efficacy of the program, except
to say that I have personally seen it crash in early versions. As I also said
before, I applaud their customer support and speed of bug fixes, but face
it… problems are problems, and not all users send in their cards. Not all
users know there have been updates. I still occasionally get people asking
about problems with WP (as little as about 2 weeks ago), and who are
surprised when I tell them that there have been more updates to WP than there
have been programs from EA. I refer them to WP Corp, and don't ever bash
them. I simply pointed out, here, that there have been numerous problems with
WP (the program), and have thought that I made it plain that I like WP (the
company).
In general, yes, many programs have bugs. I can live with some of them, not
with others. What I simply cannot live with is a fundamental philosophical
stand taken by a company that either reduces the usability of a program or
makes it ttally unusable. Included in this are copy protection (dongles
especially), taking over the machine (crashing it), disabling multitasking
(crippling other, less obnoxious programs), or refusing to consider removing
glitz in favour of utility.
-larry
Henry,
I think a bit of the bashing that deals with WP is twofold.
1. It _seems_ as if WP used the first buyers as beta testers. The
product came out and was obviously not up to par. WP provided excellent
support, but the fact remains that very obvious things (which I don't recall
at this time since I do not have WP, but WP did acknowledge were wrong and
fixed) didn't work as they should have.
2. WP's pricing policy, in particular they placed a $395 SRP on the
product and then reccomended (or at least their represenative here
reccomended) that folks buy it from a mail order house where it could be had
for less than $200. That in particular annoyed me. At their suggested
pricing, there is well over 100% markup. Not only is that absurd (to me),
but it's unrealistic.
They, and other larger publishing houses, seem to think that high SRP
means quality to the consumer…when in fact most consumers can (and do) see
it as a rip-off.
Don
Thought you'd like to hear this: got a call from an old friend tonite who
had just come back into town, and had dropped by the local Amiga store….
he was surprised because the manager said "all of a sudden, I've had 3 or 4
customers come into the store today, asking about OS9 on the Amiga… do
you know what OS9 is, by any chance?".
Wow. Not "wow" over the interest, but "wow" I keep forgetting how
widespread threads on a CIS forum (and how quickly!) get. Whew!
Yes, CIS is a very well read service…and the comments here do
spread wide and quickly. It's a very effective medium for both the
exchange of ideas and the passing of information.
Yes, CIS is a very well read service…and the comments here do
spread wide and quickly. It's a very effective medium for both the
exchange of ideas and the passing of information.
Thought you'd like to hear this: got a call from an old friend tonite who
had just come back into town, and had dropped by the local Amiga store….
he was surprised because the manager said "all of a sudden, I've had 3 or 4
customers come into the store today, asking about OS9 on the Amiga… do
you know what OS9 is, by any chance?".
Wow. Not "wow" over the interest, but "wow" I keep forgetting how
widespread threads on a CIS forum (and how quickly!) get. Whew!
First of all, my point is that they MADE a mistake with WordPerfect back
last year, but that's behind us. For everyone's information, WP's refund
rate (which they do offer if you read the licensing agreement, and it has
no time limit) is less than 1%. The licensing agreement says that if you
find a bug in WordPerfect, and it ain't fixed in
WAIT I just grabbed the box. I will quote from it, copyright WP Corp
"WpCorp warrants that the program will perform in substantial compliance with
the enclosed documentation. If you rep[ort a significant defect in writing
to WPCorp and WPcorp is unable to correct it within 90 days, you may return
the program, and WPcorp will refund the purchase price of the program".
Notice that 1) there is no time limit given to the purchaser, i.e. he can
find a bug 1 year from now 2) they say refund the PURCHASE price. Notice
that also, the amount of people who take them up on this offer has been less
than 1 percent, which is indicitive (I think) of people enjoy bashing people
for the adolescent fun of it, but, when it comes right down to it, the
product is necessary to them in some way and they stick to it.
This policy is not hidden in tiny print either. On the Amiga version it's
located right on the back, in the same size print as the "features" list. On
the Atari version, it's located on the spine in all capitals.
My point is this. They made a mistake. They fixed it. It is an excellent
product. Let's therefore move on.
As far as SRP goes, I've been dealing with this thing for almost a year
now, as a dealer and as a consumer, and with heavy-duty telecommunicating
I've NEVER heard of a single complaint about that. The reason it has a high
SRP is because it's the same as the IBM version, which is either $100 or $200
higher in SRP, and they didn't want to mark it too low or it would anger the
IBM people.
As a dealer, we markup WordPerfect with the same exact margin that we mark
up everything else in the store, and it sells for $259.95. WordPerfect
supplies us
Henry,
I agree, WP has fixed the product, I was just stating some possible
reasons for lingering bad feelings.
As to SRP, I'm sure the IBM version costs about the same on a
wholesale level as the Amiga version…so why not lower the cost of the
entire line to more properly reflect the true figures.
Again…this goes back to the idea that somehow or other the cost of
a product is somehow or other related to the usefullness or professional
level of the product. If WP is truly worth $400, then the wholesale price
should be about $300 and WP ought to keep the extra markup because their
product is 'worth it'.
Hasn't anyone at WP Corp (or any other large publisher) ever heard
that lowering the SRP so it's more in line with actual selling price is a
good idea and would promote better competition between the various software
publishers? When I first heard the SRP of $400 (and not knowing the real
wholesale price at that point)…I immediately put WP out of my 'wish list'
category. I'm sure others did also. Had the SRP been more in line with
reality ($260), which still allows a substantial markup for the dealers, they
probably would have sold more copies both in the Amiga world and the IBM
world.
Don
Amiga WordPerfect -is- substantially cheaper than IBM WordPerfect to
dealers, trust me! Alot more than the retail price suggests.
As I understand it, there are 2 reasons. 1) [as I stated earlier] not to
annoy the IBM users who realised we were getting the IBM product, improved,
and for cheaper. 2) After seeing the suggested retail price, when people saw
it on the dealers' shelves would say "oh what a deal" and buy on impulse.
But, most of your argument is based on the premise that IBM WP costs the
dealer the same (or close) as Amiga WP and I can tell you there's a
significant difference. You may or may not agree with the policy (I'm not to
sure that I agree) but I don't think it's a bone of contention among dealers.
When's the last time you've seen a dot matrix printer sold at it's SRP?
Amiga WordPerfect -is- substantially cheaper than IBM WordPerfect to
dealers, trust me! Alot more than the retail price suggests.
As I understand it, there are 2 reasons. 1) [as I stated earlier] not to
annoy the IBM users who realised we were getting the IBM product, improved,
and for cheaper. 2) After seeing the suggested retail price, when people saw
it on the dealers' shelves would say "oh what a deal" and buy on impulse.
But, most of your argument is based on the premise that IBM WP costs the
dealer the same (or close) as Amiga WP and I can tell you there's a
significant difference. You may or may not agree with the policy (I'm not to
sure that I agree) but I don't think it's a bone of contention among dealers.
When's the last time you've seen a dot matrix printer sold at it's SRP?
Henry,
I agree, WP has fixed the product, I was just stating some possible
reasons for lingering bad feelings.
As to SRP, I'm sure the IBM version costs about the same on a
wholesale level as the Amiga version…so why not lower the cost of the
entire line to more properly reflect the true figures.
Again…this goes back to the idea that somehow or other the cost of
a product is somehow or other related to the usefullness or professional
level of the product. If WP is truly worth $400, then the wholesale price
should be about $300 and WP ought to keep the extra markup because their
product is 'worth it'.
Hasn't anyone at WP Corp (or any other large publisher) ever heard
that lowering the SRP so it's more in line with actual selling price is a
good idea and would promote better competition between the various software
publishers? When I first heard the SRP of $400 (and not knowing the real
wholesale price at that point)…I immediately put WP out of my 'wish list'
category. I'm sure others did also. Had the SRP been more in line with
reality ($260), which still allows a substantial markup for the dealers, they
probably would have sold more copies both in the Amiga world and the IBM
world.
Don
First of all, my point is that they MADE a mistake with WordPerfect back
last year, but that's behind us. For everyone's information, WP's refund
rate (which they do offer if you read the licensing agreement, and it has
no time limit) is less than 1%. The licensing agreement says that if you
find a bug in WordPerfect, and it ain't fixed in
WAIT I just grabbed the box. I will quote from it, copyright WP Corp
"WpCorp warrants that the program will perform in substantial compliance with
the enclosed documentation. If you rep[ort a significant defect in writing
to WPCorp and WPcorp is unable to correct it within 90 days, you may return
the program, and WPcorp will refund the purchase price of the program".
Notice that 1) there is no time limit given to the purchaser, i.e. he can
find a bug 1 year from now 2) they say refund the PURCHASE price. Notice
that also, the amount of people who take them up on this offer has been less
than 1 percent, which is indicitive (I think) of people enjoy bashing people
for the adolescent fun of it, but, when it comes right down to it, the
product is necessary to them in some way and they stick to it.
This policy is not hidden in tiny print either. On the Amiga version it's
located right on the back, in the same size print as the "features" list. On
the Atari version, it's located on the spine in all capitals.
My point is this. They made a mistake. They fixed it. It is an excellent
product. Let's therefore move on.
As far as SRP goes, I've been dealing with this thing for almost a year
now, as a dealer and as a consumer, and with heavy-duty telecommunicating
I've NEVER heard of a single complaint about that. The reason it has a high
SRP is because it's the same as the IBM version, which is either $100 or $200
higher in SRP, and they didn't want to mark it too low or it would anger the
IBM people.
As a dealer, we markup WordPerfect with the same exact margin that we mark
up everything else in the store, and it sells for $259.95. WordPerfect
supplies us
WordPerfect supplies us with free brochures (well done and in full color) of
a all of their products, and replenishing those stucks is a toll free phone
call away.
They also provide us with free demo copies of everything they have V(in
fact, we got $3000 worth ow3f soc f (line noise) $3000 worth of software 3
days after becoming a WP dealer. We get every single update they offer.
I don't think you'll find many dealers complaining about WP Corp.
Henry,
My dealer complained about the fact that WP corp (via their rep here)
reccomended folks buy the software for $200 rather than pay dealer's pricing.
You say you sell it for $260…how would you like someone from WP to
come in here (as an official represenative) and tell folks to buy from CMO
for $200. As you said, WP's customer support is great (it is), so the loss
of a local dealer's support is no big deal in this case.
Or, would you like to lower your price to $200 to meet the mail order
competiton and cut your margins by 60% ?
Don
If a WordPerfect Corp. representative acted like that I would be on the
phone in seconds, making a large complaint. VVVery large and loud, you can
rest assured.
I think that this one representative's actions is -far- from the company
norm. Let me list some of our experiences.
1) Federal Expressed updates.
2) Free demonstration copies (complete, but with NOT FOR RESALE stamped
on the box and disks) no questions asked.
3) Sales promotions
4) Free literature about all products, again, no questions asked.
5) Updates coming with letters saying "please update all your stock in
the store with these copies, or mail the copies to us and we will update
them, whichever you prefer". I've never seen anything like that from anyone
else – VVVIP Professional, BVyte-By-Byte, EA, Oxxi, Firebird, TimeWorks, no
body. In fact let me tell you TimeWorks' strategy. When they come out with
an update they send form letters to dealers -assuring- the dealer that the
update will contain NO changes on the box for 2 months, so that a customer
wouldn't know if he were getting the newest or the oldest version of the
software. But they would get the word out via magazines and word-of-mouth,
etc. that the new version had many more features. You all aren't familiar
with TimeWorks, but they are a very big and well respected company. Even
this policy (which I find repulsive) is alot better than most companies (in
its devious sort of way). It's a tremendous problem with dealers getting
stuck with older versions of software on the shelves. Often he doesn't even
know!!
6) Discounts for volume sales, a wonderful educational program, and
discounts for employees of a dealership.
For these reasons, WordPerfect -does- indeed support its dealers alot
better than most companies, including Commodore and Atari. From what you've
told me, there's one guy out there who's doing something that would greatly
annoy his superiors.
Henry,
At this point it doesn't matter who made the statement. When I
jumped on them for it…they did some _VERY_ quick backpedaling.
Again…there is no dispute on the fact that WP is probably one of
the most responsive (and responsible) companies in the software business. In
that area they do excell.
Don
Henry,
At this point it doesn't matter who made the statement. When I
jumped on them for it…they did some _VERY_ quick backpedaling.
Again…there is no dispute on the fact that WP is probably one of
the most responsive (and responsible) companies in the software business. In
that area they do excell.
Don
If a WordPerfect Corp. representative acted like that I would be on the
phone in seconds, making a large complaint. VVVery large and loud, you can
rest assured.
I think that this one representative's actions is -far- from the company
norm. Let me list some of our experiences.
1) Federal Expressed updates.
2) Free demonstration copies (complete, but with NOT FOR RESALE stamped
on the box and disks) no questions asked.
3) Sales promotions
4) Free literature about all products, again, no questions asked.
5) Updates coming with letters saying "please update all your stock in
the store with these copies, or mail the copies to us and we will update
them, whichever you prefer". I've never seen anything like that from anyone
else – VVVIP Professional, BVyte-By-Byte, EA, Oxxi, Firebird, TimeWorks, no
body. In fact let me tell you TimeWorks' strategy. When they come out with
an update they send form letters to dealers -assuring- the dealer that the
update will contain NO changes on the box for 2 months, so that a customer
wouldn't know if he were getting the newest or the oldest version of the
software. But they would get the word out via magazines and word-of-mouth,
etc. that the new version had many more features. You all aren't familiar
with TimeWorks, but they are a very big and well respected company. Even
this policy (which I find repulsive) is alot better than most companies (in
its devious sort of way). It's a tremendous problem with dealers getting
stuck with older versions of software on the shelves. Often he doesn't even
know!!
6) Discounts for volume sales, a wonderful educational program, and
discounts for employees of a dealership.
For these reasons, WordPerfect -does- indeed support its dealers alot
better than most companies, including Commodore and Atari. From what you've
told me, there's one guy out there who's doing something that would greatly
annoy his superiors.
Henry,
My dealer complained about the fact that WP corp (via their rep here)
reccomended folks buy the software for $200 rather than pay dealer's pricing.
You say you sell it for $260…how would you like someone from WP to
come in here (as an official represenative) and tell folks to buy from CMO
for $200. As you said, WP's customer support is great (it is), so the loss
of a local dealer's support is no big deal in this case.
Or, would you like to lower your price to $200 to meet the mail order
competiton and cut your margins by 60% ?
Don
WordPerfect supplies us with free brochures (well done and in full color) of
a all of their products, and replenishing those stucks is a toll free phone
call away.
They also provide us with free demo copies of everything they have V(in
fact, we got $3000 worth ow3f soc f (line noise) $3000 worth of software 3
days after becoming a WP dealer. We get every single update they offer.
I don't think you'll find many dealers complaining about WP Corp.
Henry,
I think a bit of the bashing that deals with WP is twofold.
1. It _seems_ as if WP used the first buyers as beta testers. The
product came out and was obviously not up to par. WP provided excellent
support, but the fact remains that very obvious things (which I don't recall
at this time since I do not have WP, but WP did acknowledge were wrong and
fixed) didn't work as they should have.
2. WP's pricing policy, in particular they placed a $395 SRP on the
product and then reccomended (or at least their represenative here
reccomended) that folks buy it from a mail order house where it could be had
for less than $200. That in particular annoyed me. At their suggested
pricing, there is well over 100% markup. Not only is that absurd (to me),
but it's unrealistic.
They, and other larger publishing houses, seem to think that high SRP
means quality to the consumer…when in fact most consumers can (and do) see
it as a rip-off.
Don