CompuServe Thread

Answers: #1) 10, very best. #2) ilike books best; they are quiet and help contemplation. Its like there's the voice in the book and then there is 3DS that talks with a different voice; I like to keep the two voices in separate worlds or they get mixed up. I would like a ring binder on the books though; because it falls off the table and falls on the keyboard all the time; and closes up by itself and then falls off the table. thank you. #3 & #4) i will let you know; i am going to sit down w/ the books(human's best friend) soon. good luck!

The single best reason to have an on line help system is the ability to search for words. Browsing indexes is a nightmare to say the least. I think the search engine and a hefty data dictionary are the most important aspect of any online help system. Once the desired data is found, the full text could be present for a quick browse but a reference to the written documentation (book title and page number) is important as well. Just take a look at the Microsoft Developers Network CD. That's the best tool I have ever seen. Its main problem though is that it doesn't give a reference to the written documentation. I have a wall to wall section on Microsoft documents. Every time I have to find something it's a nightmare as I don't even know which of the 300 books I should be looking for. Once you find the right book, you have to go through the indexes and they are never laid out in the same way as your questions. Being able to browse several references at once is a dream come true.

Well Gary, I have to agree with Rachel. I think the hardcopy documentation is very very well done. And it often seems to me that many questions that are asked are in the book. So then the question is… is there a better way than a hardcopy reference. Personally I don't think so. On-line help, by its very nature is condensed. I find on-line help frustrating in all applications I've seen them used including Windows and Hypertext. So personally, I like the way you've done the online help as I can delete it. In other words if you're going to further develop on-line help keep it seperate from the program as you have. Save the code and size for advanced features. One other significant factor is intuitive design. In other words is there a natural logic to how the program works. That is your best guarantee that people won't be frustrated. Many people just don't like to read. Especially graphics people. <g> There are some features like the "delete keys" in the keyframer and the "hide keys" which are not intuitive. So in sum, good logical design and good hard-copy documentation are the best IMHO. FWIW I like the reference book best. I never could get through the tutorials, sorry but they're really boring. So I don't want to see more of the documentation provided for in on-line help, unless its a supplement and unless I can delete it. (Don't want it built into the program.) I find on-line help lacking and typically does not have the information I want. -JE

Gary, I think that the 3DS docs are some of the best software manuals ever. Very well thought out, illustrated and with some of the best examples. I might add that they are also pretty well indexed, not too hard to find any topic. My personal preference is to have the mechanical descriptions available on-line and keep the examples in the printed docs. I most often need a little prompting on what this or that button or slider does exactly and if I could read a sentence or two that would prod me along then I appreciate the help. On the other hand having to drill down through several paragraphs to find that one button is annoying. I also find it useful to have a reference to the printed manual, for those cases when I need to refer to an example or re-read a section. On the other hand the system used by Microsoft with their CD release of Word, where they have the entire manual on a CD and a front end that makes it easy to find a section and then read on-line, has proved to be useful when exploring new territory. I have also found some implementations of tutorials on-line to be useful, but then there are others that are a big pain. I think Don Hanson did a nice job of showing off VP's features with his demo program. Once the program has run it course, it politely steps aside and allows you to explore, would be a nice way to introduce a tutorial chapter. I hope this is what you are looking for. If I can be of more help, let me know. Fred

For various and sundry reasons I like both best. I do love the way the manuals are now, and would hate to see them suffer for on-line application. OTOH, I have seen on-line manuals that are excellent. I prefer indexing through on-line manuals, and then being able to refer to a hardcopy (not a crippled one, either) for an in-depth resource. It would also be nice to be able to eliminate paper waste, but I don't know where one would begin to cut down on 3DS documentation. I think this is a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". This software is so intense and large that complete documentation is an absolute must… and Jack has been doing an exemplary job. I would love to see an extensive on-line manual that would give me instant access to a large number of cross indexed subjects, and that would also allow me to refer to the (any) book for further study. John Tissavary (La Luna cie)

1. I would rate them a nine. So far, every time I've had to refer to the manuals to brush up on stuff, I have found what I was looking for quickly. Not so with 99% of the manuals out there. 2. I would like to see a fair amount on-line, but not to replace printed documentation. Mostly key word searches so I can quickly review a command or function I may be unfamiliar with, a little fuzzy on, or can't remember exactly how to do it. 3. Is this a one-or-the-other type of question? Either on-line or manual? I think the 2d shaper, materials editor, and the keyframer would be the best served by on-line help. 4. The tutorials. Lastly, See Gus's response. That pretty much summs it up for me.

Hope this helps a little: 1) On a scale of 1-10 (10 being best), how would you rate the usefulness of the current 3DS hardcopy documentation? 8 2) What are your opinions about seeing more of the 3DS documentation in the future published in an on-line help format? (feel free to be as verbose as you want here) Yes, but don't cut down on the printed material. It would be nice to quickly refer to documentation via a click-and-learn interface. 3) Which part of the hardcopy documentation (if any) do you think would be better implemented in an on-line help system? Tutorials, 3D Lofter (Steve Sherer has proved the usefulness of 3D Lofter… but it is not easy!), and definately Video Post!! Gary, I sent you a message via normal CSERVE Mail. Did you receive it? Robert Taylor

G…. Two comments: (1) On line docs are good as long as they don't cause some weird slowing effect on this memory intensive app. (2) I work alot in the Foxpro world. You should check out how MS does the online help there. By the way MS cannot claim credit for that design since Fox Software was using that design before MS bought them out. I have found it very good and fast. The way they use the index search in a clean manner. One really cool thing is they provide in Foxpro a way in which 3rd party apps can create their own help screens that look and feel like the FP help. (3) One more thought. It would be really cool if 3DS allowed the inclusion of IPAS routines to append their help info transparently into 3DS existing index. SW

Gary, I'll be brief: stick with the books. My only concession would be an on-line *index* (referencing manual page #s), if it could be more complete than the current printed index. I do find that I can not find many items I'd expect to find in the book index. In part, this may be because the subject is in one of the other manuals (such as Installation & Performance Guide for PharLap issues). Thus, I'd just like you to add a master index, referencing the appropriate manual & pages. As to manual content itself, I'd like to see an extensive trouble-shooting section (I've done something wrong, now how do I bail out?). Kevin Krell – Computer Support Associates

Gary: I like the current documentation a lot, so I would give question 1 a 9 out of to. I wouldn't mind seeing more on-line documentation, but ***NOT*** at the expense of the printed docs. I think that you need to keep the level of detail in the printed manuals about where it is at right now. There are times when I have to go away from the computer and really read the manuals to get the idea, and I don't see that changing. I don't think that ANY of the current docs would be **better** online but I would like to see an expansion from the current "what does this command do?" (which I do like a lot) to a more detailed form that includes what, how, and why. I don't think that you can move the tutorials at all from the paper manuals without providing some kind of general purpose scripting that let you mix the tutorials with 3DS. The long paragraphs that explain the background of things is probably also not suitable for online help. What would be nice is for every piece of online help to provide a page number reference back to the manual for more information. Chris

Gary, While I think that online docs are a good idea in general, I seem to only have a 20% success rate in finding out what I need to know with existing help systems in other programs I have. I think the best use of online help in 3ds would be a complete but simple explanation (a little more detail than the present 'alt' help) of every command and button and dialogue box, etc. and a COMPLETE index on every conceavable aspect of 3ds with specific page #s of the hardcopy manuals. This index should have all the normal search abilities, plus should be able to give you related topics as well. I think that will give users a quick way to find what they want, without having to search through the manuals because they already have the page #s of all related topics according to their seach parameters right in front of them. If a more detailed help system than that is implemented, it should be an optional installation. Also, I like the idea someone suggested about being able to have IPAS developers supply their own help text and have it be accesable from the normal 3ds help. And the existing docs? 9.5. David

In response to your survey… I use the manuals a lot. (9+ or so). I would like to see them better indexed, for example I tried to find "Archive" the other day, and there have been a few others recently that I had to eventually thumb through likely sections looking for. If you could make sure that every button in every screen with a unique word could have its' own entry in the index, I'd luv ya for it… When I heard that Rel. 3 was going to have online help, I was really interested. However, I find that I never use it. 3DS pushes my 486-33 to the max usually, so I wouldn't like to load it up with more stuff than necessary. I prefer to use "near on-line" storage, i.e. the bookshelf beside my monitor, as I often pore through the manual while twiddling stuff on screen. I don't think the on-screen stuff could have as much useful info as necessary without taking up all the real estate. I do like the idea of an on-line index or search engine that others have mentioned, since it would save mulling through index entries (let me see, was that under keyframer/lights/move or…?) Thanks for asking, hope this helps..

I think the current printed doc's are excellent. I can always find what I want and they are well written. I do wish they were bound so that they would lie down flat and would stay open when leaning up against something on your desk, like the Animator Pro manuals. I would be suspicious of trying to do too much on-line. The fact is, you need to KNOW what you're about to do in 3D Studio. I use on-line help most frequently when I'm just "skimming the top" of an application I'm not very deep in and I'm not very interested in getting deep into, like a new spreadsheet or graphics program. You can learn a program this way, too, and I bet a lot of us picked up a lot by screwing around going up and down the menu's, but in this case a brief command summary for each command, maybe a bit more detailed than in release 3, is sufficient. What may be a helpful addition on-line, after the brief command summary, is to extensively cross-reference not only the specific page/section of the manual for an in-depth discussion, but a broader "see also" summary. The Borland compiler's help system has that and I find it very useful. –Noah

Well Gary, I think Gus hit it right on the head. As far as the hardcopy docs go, they really are second to none. But the only main advantage of online documentation is the ability to search for keywords and get fingertip access to cross references and related ideas. The existing online docs in r3 ARE a significant help over having nothing at all though.. — Steve

Dear Yost Group; My answers to your questions. 1. Very usefull 2. On line documentaion would grow the program size. I also like to be able to be working on a project with the book open, instead of being off-line looking for help. 3. Short command descriptions and where to find it in the manual. Possibley with a search funtion with wildcards. 4. Explanation of theory's I like 3DS very much. I feel that you folks have done and are doing a great job with this program. In reply to blackbelt online help. If they just had a few more tutorials explaning their program better it would help greatly. Other than that they are most helpfull on the phone, and I have fun "not as much as with 3DS" with their program. Your tutorials are great, they give us hints on how thing work. Tim Kelley

I think the hardcopy docs are a 10. Although, the R3 printing, production, and packaging values were down from the previous version and that miffed me a little but if manuals are going to be reprinted every 18 months I don't know. As for online help and references, I personally hate it. I simply do not have the patience. It has absolutely nothing to do with the way I work or use 3D Studio. My approach to animation work is based on executing a vision that I have in my mind. I want to concentrate on that and not have the tool get in the way. So I have distinct periods where I practise with the tool, do tutorials or experiment build my skills. This is when I will be reading the docs. The hard disk real estate is more important to me.

Dear Gary, I have just started to learn the wonder that is 3ds and I must complement you on n it. It is especially sweet because most people where I work use Macs and 3ds3 makesthem realize which it the better machine. (G) Anyway I think that paper based manuals should be maintained. Not Because it is ea easier to stare at (glassy eyed) for a longer period of time than a computer screen because of the printed pages better resolution. OTOH a "Cliff Notes" on-line would be helpful to use for quick reference and context sensitive help Finally, The Tutorials are AWSOME you could definately teach Macromedia about putting together a decent tutorial Best of Luck, Neil B.

Gary; Thanks for asking. >> (feel free to be as verbose as you want here) You said I could do it! <g> Recently I picked up on a discussion of how people learn. Some people can read something, and understand a concept clearly. Other people need Visual stimulation to pick up a concept. I believe there was a third catagory, but it slips my mind at this time. I must have read it somewhere, so I don't remember. I am one that cannot get that much out of reading. I don't like to read. Even though I do the tutorials, I do not grasp the essentials being taught, unless someone shows me. I like to see it demonstrated. The manuals are great, and they have all the information in them, but sometimes I cannot find what I am looking for. In this case online indexing allowing searches for all key words or simalar variants and where they are found in the printed manual would be GREAT. The on-line manuals I have used have been very limited in information. They were almost useless. In your case, if you put everything that is now in the manual online, maybe the information would be available, but then sometimes it is difficult to locate depending upon the hyper-text engine. Another item I'm against is more hard disk space lost for "JUST TEXT". I wouldn't like 3D Studio exclusively online because my computer is too expensive to use as a text reader. But I would have plenty of time to read the printed manual while it is rendering. My renders typically range from 5 to 30 minutes per frame. So that would be a lot of time I couldn't read the online manual. If picture is worth a thousand words. An animation or video must be worth 1,800,000 words each minute. I can't read that fast! <G> Improvements I would like to see are a video of the neat features. The Animator software had a video. Corel Draw has had videos. It is a quick way to see how to do something, then do it. I would watch the video, then go do it. I attended an Autodesk presentation on 3D Studio where they showed how to morph a 57 Chevy. I took a tape recorder to the session and recorded the whole thing. Then I spent the weekend learning how to do what they did. It was most enlightening. I learned more in that 90 minute presentation (after doing it myself) than all the books I had read to that point. Maybe I should buy Digimations tapes? If they show stuff like that, I guess so. The type of things I picked up on at the presentation were the 3 color grey scale tif images and how to position them in the scene. I saw it done, but it took me a while to find that in the manual, but without the manual, I would never have figured out how to do it. I think initially, I could not locate (in the manual) the key command <ALT G> for displaying the background. But I located it on the Keyboard alternatives sheet. Months later, I found it in the manual. If I hadn't seen this done, I may never have discovered it. I knew it was there because I had seen it. This is the type of item I would want in a hypertext reference manual online, but only to point it out in the printed manual. Also, somehow I never realized I could morph a car, or anything that complex. Seeing that done was an eye opener. Again, I had to search the manual for just how to do this. I am a pilot. I learned to fly many years ago, but within the last 6 years, I worked for my rating as a flight instructor. One item that was pointed out in the training is that most people learn quickest by seeing. And according to the Federal Aviation Administration, about 85% of most peoples learning occurs via seeing. So they emphasize that visual aids are one of the best ways to help people learn to fly (or anything for that matter). Present information to people so they can see what they are expected to do. 3D Studio is a visual medium. If possible, make it visual. In the discussions that recently occured between the forum members, and Black Belt systems, someone pointed out that a software that is great for visualization that has no graphics in it's documentation is missing the boat. I upgraded to WinImages F/X over a month ago. I still have not had time to load it onto my computer. If I don't have time to load it, am I going to have time to read online docs. I would like images. Show me what it can do! I also purchased some IPAS routines recently. I find that the documentation on these are extremely bad! It is nice to provide the many features to the users, but if you have 10 switches you can change, the possibility of variation on your animation is phenominal. If my math is correct this is 10 factorial, or 10x9x8x7x6x5x4x3x2x1 possible combinations assuming only on or off. That is 3,628,800 possibilities on your animation by trying all combinations. Do I have time to work through these for my animation due next week? Maybe if I don't eat or sleep, I can do it. Yeah, I think so. That's all I have to do! <g> Do you have time to work through these to put into a package? Maybe if you don't eat or sleep….. Obviously not. But something more than text is needed! A few animations provided in the packages on what effects can be produced using what switches would make using these a lot easier. I bought these IPAS routines thinking I could make them useful quickly. I guess I need to be a genius to figure some of them out. One was talking about bubbles following a "Power Law trajectory". WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THAT? I don't know. Is there an example? No. Is there a description? I don't understand it. So I start rendering animation number one of 3,628,800 to figure it out. No dinner tonight. <g> Another thought for your longevity. Online docs provide an easier way to pirate software. With printed doc's, no one will give away their only copy of the manual! True, you can put it on a CD-ROM, but even though I want one, I can not afford one yet. I spend my money on IPAS routines. <G> Just my thoughts. I hope it helps. Dennis Fenske

G-man, 1) 10. 2) It would be OK to add a little more, but not much is needed. 3) Maybe some examples, where appropriate. 4) Tutorials.

G- 1) The hardcopy doc's – very good, high nines (a low score here or there from the Ukranian judge <g>). 2) On-line help – this could be good but ONLY if all the information is obtainable. As many others have already said, the primary benefit from on-line is the abiltiy to search for phrases & key words – this would be a boon. The current help format, well, it isn't, since it's more of a header description and isn't available for each component/option/dialog/toggle of the system. It's implimentation with the Alt key/mouse does would seem to work a lot better then the blind & time consuming search for topics method though – maybe in the future the combination puts you into the help list @ that subject point? 3) Nothing from the hardcopy should be totaly replaced by on-line (it's just too hard to "curl up in bed" with a computer). As has been said, people all learn differently – the ideal is to present diverse tools to reach users in varying ways. The one area that would obviously benefit from on-line would be animated command/procedure descriptions. The ability to SEE a morph, bend, taper, roll, motion-blur example could be very insightful, and very cutting-edge (probably another award winner for the 3DS doc's). Many of these could be basic wire-frames to conserve size & playback speed. 4) Not on-line: anything that is very text-intensive. I'm sure that I am not the only one who's eyes glaze over trying to read extensive amounts of phosper text. But after saying that, one would still want to be able to scan for that text's key words/phrases. Hmmm, I guess it should all go in. 5)(implied) Hard-copy manual suggestions: COLOR, especially when trying to convey lighting/material/color concepts (having color equivalants on-line would be a 2nd-choice alternative). I can't otherwise complain about the manuals except to say that more discussion on underlying concepts is needed and would be very benefficial to all users. 6)(implied) On-line help format suggestions: I'm torn about the CD route. On one hand its very slick and able to hold +600 megs. On the other hand it would replace the WCTK (unless one had 2 CD drives) and make the help index un-editable & un-updateable. Although I hate to say it, the AutoCAD concept of an ascii help index that is compiled for speed does have its advantages. An alternate might be an editable help "index" that 3DS checks and points to any additional help files (from users, IPAS routines, or your own updates). This would allow the core 3DS help to be compiled/protected yet added to. – Phil p.s. Although all of what has been suggested and said on this thread would be somewhat useful and even fun, please don't detour programming resources from the interface/rendering code because of it!<g>. Given that trade-off, I would MUCH rather learn "on-line" by trial and error than sacrifice on the 3DS's overall evolution and constant improvement.

I do NOT LIKE on-line documentation. I much prefer a manual. That way you can have the screen you are working on in front of you and the book beside. If you have any sort of meaningful on-line doc it will fill up the screen with text. A lot of time you might want to try something from the book and it is always much easier to have an uncluttered screen with the book for reference. Also swapping back and forth between your on-screen work and help-text file is annoying since you are unable to see minute details of your work at the same time you are reading the help text. I do not even use the current on-line help, but prefer to go to the reference or some other written source. The most useful thing to have on-line would be page number in the reference manual. I would also like to see more examples of some the less frequently used commands. Judy

I have found just about perfect balance between hardcopy and online help. Online seems most effective as a reminder… tweak recall. Whereas, the excellent documentation is always near at hand. Though I have been using 3DS since 1.0, it is always refreshing to peek at the tutorials and user guide to get back to the easiest way to accomplish something. There are simply so many levels of this software, that one can only consider oneself glued to the learning curve. It would be interesting to see an advanced tutorial edition released. Take a user through some very convoluted ways of processing. A hardy congratulations on 3.0. I have been X-static for months. Cannot recall if this is my 3rd or 4th year on 3DS platform. I almost feel like the Yost Group sits all around my workstation… the overall platform is a dream come true for fine arts application and experimental work. Thank you and be aware that there are already rumors of 4.0. Notwithstanding frontal lobe collapse, I'll just put spikes on my hi-tops. Jeffrey

1. I'd rate the current docs about 9. 2. I would very much like to have some of the docs on on-line help. 3. Most important would be a comprehensive, hyper-text on-line index which provides the relevant page number in the printed docs. Beyond that I think it would be nice to have basic information available on-line; perhaps, again, with references to the printed manual's page number "for more help." If you plan to have complete information on-line, _then_ a valuable feature would be to have EXAMPLES whenever appropriate. I can learn very quickly seeing an example of how to do something instead of reading through pages of text to extract the information I need. One place in the current docs (and in the R2 docs) which badly needs a few simple examples is the "Command Line and Batch Rendering" section of the Advanced User Guide. I spent HOURS trying to figure out which switches I needed to include for batch rendering. A few examples simply showing several command line setups with arrows explaining each of the switches and boldface for the switches which are mandatory are really needed. 4. I don't think the on-line help should include all the detailed procedural instructions like the printed docs. It's generally too hard to read that much stuff on line. I don't know what you're contemplating but we DO need the printed, paper docs. Don't ever give them up. (I don't care what MS does!) Alec Jason

1) 10 2) Personally, I like hard-copy best. 3) See above. 4) See above. For some reason, on-line help never did anything for me. Don't really know why, I just like books, I guess… -Alan

1. Reference guides =9; Tutorial=2 I've always gotten a pretty good answer to my questions with the reference guides. I've tried at least a half dozen times to go through the tutorials but I just can't seem to stay awake beyond 4 pages. I think the whole tutorial should be replaced by a video. It wouldn't have to be a fancy production, maybe just a tad better than the Corel Draw video. The video should show a really noce logo treatment, then show , step by step how it was done. Then do an architectural walk through, Then do a character animation. Then do some IPAS ( a suttle approach to selling your IPAS routines.) The video tutorial could be indexed as to effects and features eg. Video layering and Video POST see the section on Logo treatments 32 minutes into the tape. On my Video Cave MapsTM I use a real time counter in the upper right corner of the video from beginning to end and then supply an index so the cave diving student can quickly fast forward to the indexed section of the video. 2. Online help is great for windows aps when they use hyper text but for something like 3DS I think I'd prefer the manuals. I prefer spiral bound manuals though. They lay flat on the table. I agree with Rachael on this. 3. I'd like a reference on line for hot keys, and definitions, short ones for some of the button terms that are new with a new release. I should think that a lengthy definition on how to save a file would be redundant waste in an on line help file but when a new release comes out and a new button shows up like "face map" it would be nice if I could just go to a hypertext and get a quick explanation. When you do a help file it should be able to be eliminated at a later date for those that consider having this help file an insult to their expertise with 3DS <G> 4. Don't waste time with the very basics of 3DS operation such as installation and file handling. For instance, if the one has already installed the package why put in a detailed description on how to install it. Keep computer basics out of it like file handling and memory management. Suggestion: You should do an informal survey on the tutorial: Find out just what percentage of people did go through the tutorials beginning to end. I tried several times and probably covered a third of it but I learned more from an instructor faster. Sure he missed a few important points but he wasn't a professional instructor but just one who had 6 months experience with 3DS. I learned Corel Draw very fast with their amateur video and if I were starting out I'd buy the videos on 3DS to learn it.

Humble opinions on docs: 1) Usefulness of current 3DS hardcopy: 9.6125 (UNSOLICITED COMMENT: The docs would be dang near perfect with a "Secrets of the Masters" supplement based on excerpts from the 3DS demo video tape) 2) Verbose, as requested… I dislike online documentation escalation if hardcopy suffers. You can't hang colored Post-it tabs out of key sections, you can't scribble notes in the margins, you can't correct doc errors, and you can't sneak it into boring staff meetings. <g> (Does my dept. head read this?) You also can't read or study online docs if the computer is down, rendering, or <gasp> busy with some other program. In the case where the hardcopy quality does not suffer, I like online documentation if it is complete and searchable, includes graphics, includes cut-and-paste where appropriate (for example, like MathCAD or MS languages), is hyper browsable, and it includes page number references to the hardcopy docs. I do not find current help hints in 3DSr3 to be useful, however they may be very useful to someone beginning to learn the program. They should also be VERY useful for someone using a cracked copy of 3DS. The only "online" things that makes sense to me are: A) a full blown CD-ROM based Help done right (full hypertext, with online flics, clipable 3D objects, wow tutorials with images of results,…) Also harder to bootleg. and/or B) little reference pointers to the hardcopy. 3) Suitable for online: The index (see 2B above). 4) Unsuitable: The sole reference, tutorial, and installation manuals. For those who won't read books, let'm watch TV. J K J

A seprate CD could easly contain an extensive on line reference and please include hardcopy docs as well, and why your at it the rest of the program too. Thanks, and keep up the great work. Jerry

Response to on-line doc survey: 1) 9+ 2) ONLY as an augmentation to the hard copy format. 3) None, as a replacement for hard copy doc's…..as above. 4) As above, in my opinion all applications REQUIRE hard copy doc's – while with existing hardcopy, it's *nice* to have on-line help. I didn't get in on the Blackbelt thread re: on-line doc's, but one of the most annoying days I've spent in recent times was weaving my way through the Windows branching on-line doc's for WinImages F/X in order to print them all out in the proper sequence. It took nearly all day. If a person has ONLY on-line docs provided, they're eventually GOING to print them out themselves. Both are great, but there is no substitute for a thorough hard copy reference – and I HATE to read manuals. I'd personally rather see additional effort spent toward accompanying video tape tutorials, and leave the hard copy & on-line help about like they are now. BILL

1) 10 , but: The index could be larger and better organized. Last thing I couldn't find: Tag/Untag. 2) This would be very helpful and could save much time. On-line help was the only thing I really missed until R3. 3) Meanings of the buttons, especially Render-Setup, -configure, Create-Lights, Track-info etc. Just one or two sentences, references to the pages in the manual. A key-reference. 4) Everything concerning 3ds-setup, network-rendering setup, installation.

1) The documentation is OK. Somewhere between 9 – 10. 2),3),4) I think that the on-line documentation is really great. Especially the possibility to make fast searches in the docs. BUT ! the written manuals are very necessary too. So I'll prefer to have both versions. Best regards PavelK

Gary, I've been in the software business for a long time, I currently have a real job for a company that sells high end EDA software for the design of ASICs. Our surveys have forund that most people prefer to have hard bound documentation. Since that is the case, we have gone to CD-ROM only documentation. (What???) the reason is not really just to piss off the customer, but is primarily to save money. Our software takes up over 650Mb of disk!!! and it came with a complete bookshelf (25+ books) of documentation which cost us several thousand dollars to print. So to reduce our overhead cost, we put out a CD-ROM Doc. If customers want hard copy, they can get several reams of paper ready and print it themselves. I think this is a bum deal…. but I don't make those kind of decisions. Our software costs a couple hundred thousand dollars and I think for that price you should get a hard copy of the manual. In a more esoteric area, as director of Asia/Pacific operations for the company, when I visit a customer, I check to see what manuals are on the shelves of the engineers… This tells me what other software the customer is using. Thus if the doc is on CD there is no brand recognition/marketing effect in the end user environment. I know this is a bit obscure, but don't under estimate the marketing power of the documentation. At my other job here at AM Productions, IMOHO, I like the hard documentation better than on-line CD stuff, especialy if it is an additional CD since my CD-ROM already has the 3DS ROM for mapping paths. switching would be a hassle and I don't think I'll go to any of the fancy Multi-CD drives. In addition, it's difficult to follow examples/reference with an additional window covering the primary work area. Just too cluttered for me. The tutorial may work well on CD, but would require an awful lot of work to make it as interactive as the book can be. I'd pay extra to have the manual if it came down to it. Tom

I like the books so I can take study away from my computers I do think more docs are needed for IPAS and I would like to see a CD-Rom ver. with fli*'s and *.prj examples

Gary: To quote Martin Foster, " 1) 10. 2) It would be OK to add a little more, but not much is needed. 3) Maybe some examples, where appropriate. 4) Tutorials. " and to quote MG Bachelor: "and I HATE to read manuals. I'd personally rather see additional effort spent toward accompanying video tape tutorials, and leave the hard copy & on-line help about like they are now." These two echo my thoughts. I'd like to see the effort put into creating advanced tutorials that work with videotape, so that we can see what's happening over time with what is being tweaked. It's just not possible any other way (except maybe by making us render flics, which play back at varying speeds on different systems, and are a pain when you make the user create each one). Jim Lammers

Gary: 1). 9.5 2). On line help is useful to me when it includes an real world example of what a particular command or function is used for. 3). 4). Overviews In general I don't rely on online help but its a convenient augmentation of the printed manual. As others have mentioned I prefer to take the book away from the computer and read through it so don't eliminate the manuals, please. I also like to put notes in the margins so online help doesn't cut it. Bob

Gary, I also think that your manuals and tutorials are great. In regard to the online ref … I find myself not using them as often .. but typically I think that what I will need won't be in there. I do think it is very important to new and _potential_ users of 3DS. Online help instantly validates a "user friendly" attitude by the programmers … and thus it is very important for sales purposes and beginner users. Ang

1) 9 2) If I need help, it's usually quicker to reach across the desk, look it up in the index, and read about it. I'd like to see brief on-line help describing common gotcha's and referring back to a page number in the book. Installation of help should be optional, in case we don't want it or are trying to conserve space. Also, wouldn't on-line help assist pirates in understanding the program without any books? 3) Not necessarily better, but it might be helpful to provide help on hierarchy, dummies, linking as well as track info and key info. In the lofter, deform commands could use some help. 4) Detailed techniques need not be on-line. Help should probably describe a basic technique with "see page xx" and have "common problems" and "see also page xx". >> There are 34 Replies. Perhaps one more opinion won't hurt. <g>

Here's my input: 1. 9.5 working through the tutorials allows users to get their feet wet without alot of wasted time and anxiety. 2. Haven't really used the online help that much. For some of the more obscure commands that aren't used that often, I think it would be helpful. Or to expand a little on what might not be covered in the tutorial for that specific command. 3. See #2 4. Sorry, can't help you here. My short and (sweet) opinions, Bob W.

Gary– 1.) The manuals are a 10. Tutorials are effective, but dry. I did make it cover-to cover in release 2, however. <g> 2.) Online help is really only effective in Windows where you can take advantage of multitasking (keeping the help window open while you're woking through a problem), and hypertext. In the DOS version, I think you should stick to keeping the hardcover manuals a good as they've been up to this point. –John WIlson

1. I'm enjoying the tutorials but wish there were more new stuff from the R2 books. Rate – 9.5 2. I don't want to see the major parts of the documentation implemented in an on-line help format. Going through the tutorials I have the book open on my left, soda and mouse on tne right and computer in the center. Hardcopy is a must!!! Not everyone knows all. RING BINDERS PLEASE!!! (Also for AutoCad)<g> 3. When learning the program a help for commands would be useful. I also would like to see an online "index" which would reference the Reference Manual. 4. 99% of the hardcopy is fine where it is. I've been trying to printout one of my window programs online help. It isn't set-up to print in any particular order and it's a pain in the a–. I followed most of the Blackbelt thread and all I saw is" WHAT AN ATTITUDE." I don't have their software yet but when I'm ready to buy something I hope I have other choices. Hope this helps – mark

I'm no expert when it comes to the final product, but I certainly have a vast amount of experience when it comes to pouring over the manuals and muttering "what the …. is going on here and why won't this come out?" I believe the documentation is really very good; I give it an 8. I would love to see two appendicies in the back: 1) a compilation of the most important settings to achieve broadcast quality animations, i.e. pixel size, super black (watch out for masks!), minimum camera distance to a moving object, etc., and 2) the same type of compilation for high resolution stills. Insofar as the tutorials, an additional chapter that is by invitation only would include discussion by the artists/animators of some of the material submitted for the demo reel. It could even become a requirement for submission for the demo reel, that an article accompany the still of video. Many of us learn and expand the size of our tool boxes by emulation. Regarding on-line help, I would keep it at a minimum. One liner definitions and ranges of settings would be sufficeint in my opinion. I set stuff up and run a little animation and then hit the reference manual. It gives something to do while the animation is running so I don't have to watch every scan line and constantly try to restrain my left hand from the "esc" key.

Normally, if I was asked if there was a way to improve help documents for a certain program, I would reply "I hope so!" In most cases, manuals are mediocre at best but in the case of 3DStudio, I can honestly say that they"re the best I've come across. Enough gushing<g>. >>1) On a scale…<< 9 >>2)…on line help…<< First off, please do not remove information from the manual and place it online. Where as I may be as verbose as I like here, I rarely see an on-line doc go into as much depth as it's manual counterpart and I'd hate to lose the functionality of the 3DS books. I dislike DOS on-line help systems that force me to either read the help file _or_ use the program. In windows, I can keep a help window open and still try examples but any 3DS help file that doesn"t allow me to see and use the program while reading about a command is nest to useless. When I look something up in the manual, I've got it on my knees while I'm trying out the command. I like the pop up "what is.." in rel 3.0, maybe an expansion of that is appropriate. >>3) Which part of …<< and >>4)<< I'm loathe to see anything moved FROM the manual TO online help. Bruce Meikle