#CBM Announces CDTV!
85 messages in this thread
COMMODORE UNVEILS INTERACTIVE MULTIMEDIA SYSTEM
(June 4)
Commodore International has unveiled an interactive multimedia system at
the Consumer Electronics Show being held in Chicago.
The Commodore Dynamic Total Vision (CDTV) player is the first
consumer-oriented product to combine Compact Disc technology and a personal
computer into a single, simple-to-use, affordable unit.
The player connects directly to a television set and home stereo unit to
become an intoractive entertainment, information and education center. A
infrared remote control allows users to access to a wide variety of
programs. For example, the CDTV makes it possible for users to access
specific topics listed in reference materials such as encyclopedias, world
atlases and almanacs at the touch of a button.
Commodore said it will ship the CDTV player in the fall with a suggested
retail price under $1,000. At that time it hopes to have more than 100
titles available on such topics as cooking, sports, foreign languages and
special learning programs for children.
"CDTV is the next logical step in the evolution of consumer electronics,"
said Nolan Bushnell, general manager of Commodore's recently formed
Interactive Consumer Products division. "It provides capabilities far
beyond any currently available entertainment or computer system, yet is
remarkably simple to use. If you know how to change TV channels with a
remote control, you can take full advantage of CDTV."
–John Edwards
Now Commodore's stock price movement becomes comprehensible.
I really like the way Commodore seems to be working this too…they've been
banging out some big announcements, and keeping in the eye of the consumer
and the media.
Steve
They got most of the columns in yesterday's SF examiner business section
writeup of CES… along with Home theater
Well, at least CBM was smart enough to 1)remove the amiga nameplate from
the unit, and 2)set up the machine so that it is more like some sort of
reference material, and not as a high price nintendo. That was some very
good market decisions on Commodore's part(which is very refreshing). Now
they have a system that is completely unique and suited to people who don't
use computers on a daily basis.
John
Smart move? Absolutely (altho taking the name Commodore off there might be
a good idea, too ;-).
Completely unique? No. It's obvious that they took the whole concept of
CD-I (compact disc – interactive) and ran with the idea, altho using their
own proprietary setup in order to beat Sony/Philips to the marketplace.
To refresh you, CD-I players are standalone CDROM audio/video units with
infrared remotes and expansion with normal computer peripherals. They also
will debut at below $1000 (in 1991 – several years past schedule). CD-I was
designed specifically for the home "appliance" market. In other words, the
CBM CDTV player sounds nearly exactly the same in concept and execution.
The biggest differences are that CD-I may have better color resolution, and
consumer units will be able to play up to 72 minutes of full-motion video
using new CD-I proprietary chips.
However, it looks like CDTV will hit the market months before CD-I. This
could easily mean that CBM will take the cream off the top of first sales,
something Philips was counting on doing itself. The question is: will CD-I
be able to make up the difference, and what will CBM do if this happens?
Who knows? We'll find out <grin>.
I have a feeling CBM's hardware will be ultimately compatible with any
CD-I hardware out there in the mainstream if CBM's folks have any brains at
all. And recent activity shows very much that they do!
=Tom=
Tom,
CBM could become compatible with the coming CD-I mainstream, but it would
be quite a major change.
The video chips and coprocessors are different in many ways. CD-I video
doesn't use bitplanes like the Amiga, for example. Conversion could be done
of course, but slowly. Digitized audio files should be okay, tho. But
overall, it would be like asking an ST to emulate an Amiga… a messy deal
at best.
I'd be a lot happier if CBM had instead licensed CD-I like so many others
have, and put their effort into compatible, cheap machines. Otherwise the
home CDROM player market will become like the game/vcr markets… several
standards… and someone will lose out over time.
CDTV is like if CBM had come up with a rival DAT format. Who would win? CBM
or the rest of the world? Certainly early consumers might choose wrongly.
So for the CDROM home market, I'd rather see competition in price and
addons, instead of in formats. CBM may get a good start, but what about
later having to compete against Sony/Philips for the "home appliance"
market? Ouch. best – kev
It ultimately depends on how long it takes for the competitors to come up
with their own CD units. If CDTV can get one solid year of sales before
Sony/Philips enter the market, and allow third-party stero companies to
license the technology for the purpose of building their own CDTV units,
then they could easily pull the rug right out from under CD-I. In
addition, the name itself is "catchy". If they can use the catchiness of
the name in an ad campaign well, it could catch on.
The most important fact, however, is that CDTV is out way before CD-I, and
has an advantage in that it is really an incredibly user friendly computer,
rather than a simple CD player. Overall, it's the right product at the
right time, filling a niche between game machines and computers.
John
Well…on the other hand…you and I see the Amiga as a user-friendly
computer. We, however, are a very select group. This is an era in which
there are classes offered in how to program one's VCR! (That's not
necessarily because the general public is technologically ignorant–I'm a
fan of Don Norman, too–but folks like us don't represent the general
public.) Most of my relatives from an earlier generation would probably
immediately panic and go into "I *know* I can't do it!" mode if the C-word
("computer") ever came up as being a component of a consumer product.
CD-I is just a really spiffy compact disc player, with a non-threatening
remote control and that will do a lot of neat stuff for you. I bet that is
how it will appear to the general public. (You and I, of course, will know
that inside is a nice 680xx processor and a spiffy multitasking operating
system–but the technophobic needn't know that.)
(The above, of course, is purely my personal opinion.)
Don't sell the general public short. MOST people are capable of ingesting
a new technology without blinking an eye. In fact, if anything, people who
don't know that their microwaves or whatever are controlled by computers
don't care and wouldn't be the least bit impressed or intimidated if they
knew. We techies, who appreciate the signifigance of the technology, can go
into a gee-whiz frenzy over these things.
My mother-in-law was a true computer hater. Thought computers were the
instruments of evil, bound to de-humanize the world. We brought an Amiga
up to her when we visited for a week, sat her down in from of Shanghai and
had to pry her away from the machine when we left. She asked a lot of
questions during that time and eventually went out on her own and took a
computer course at the local library. "They used a Macintosh. The
computer was SO slow!" was her response. She is all set to get an Amiga
now.
– Don Nafis – Nazlo Associates Ltd –
Of course, the real deal is that no one knows how well these things will be
accepted. Lots has been written about this. Here's a quote from the 1988
"CD-I: A Designer's Overview" from McGraw-Hill ISBN 0-07-049816-4 …
DO CONSUMERS WANT INTERACTIVE PROGRAMS?
"Some observers have remarked that consumers do not want to interact with
their TV sets. Are they right? We do not know yet. Although a clear case
for interactivity can be made in the training and education markets,
nothing quite like CD-I has ever been offered consumers before, and no body
of research exists to supply us with an answer. The best market feedback on
which to base conjecture is the experience with video games and home
computers. For a short period video games were phenominally successful but,
limited to 'shoot em up' games with primitve graphics, they proved a
passing fad [Oh yeah? My note]. The early home computers also failed to
live up to consumers' expectations and quickly joined the video games at
the back of the closet.
"Were these marketing disasters a fair test of the viability of
interactvity in the home? Hardly: it was too much to expect simple video
games to have any lasting value, and the software produced for the early
home computers was limited by the inadequate processing power and data
storage capabilities of the hardware, and the crudity of their visual
displays.
<continued>
<continued>
"CD-I does not have these limitations. With its inherent multimedia
capabilities, massive storage capacity, and the powerful processors built
into the player, CD-I provides a system for software performance which is
well beyond existing home computer systems. With high-quality sound and
video pictures, CD-I represents a new information resource, delivering
interactive programs on a wide range of topics and subject areas. CD-I
should appeal to the same variety of interests that drive the sales of
millions of books and magazines – certainly no previous generation of
software has had this capability."
Now perhaps CBM read this same passage, and said "Aha! We have most of the
needed capability also! Let's market it!". <continued>
<continued>
I've got reams of stuff like that… papers, proposals, predictions,
cheerleading sections 😉 and so on; all people attempting to guess ahead
and justify million$ in development costs. Well, I guess marketroids do
that.
The best paper was done by a college educator and production materials
specialist. She brought up three main variables:
1. Price. We will want something affordable.
2. Compatability: We will want the courseware/software to play on any
brand of player, regardless of manufacturer.
3. Performance: We will want performance better than other related and
known technologies.
CBM can meet #1, and #3 with some work. If they don't license CDTV, then
they lose on #2… and I see it as pretty important.
Let's say you went out to buy a CD (audio) disc player today. So you go to
the store and there are dozens of brands. What's this? Here's one brand
which doesn't play _anyone_ else's discs! Would you buy this orphan brand?
Methinks CBM has a winner at first… and then a horrible loser… UNLESS
(as so many bright people here have said) they license their stuff out.
Then the question becomes: WHO would license it?? Most big name electronic
consumer manufacturers are locked into CD-I already. Who's left?
Kev,
A few points (counter-points).
Yes, outside licensing is essential to the health of CDTV. Who
would license it…since the big names already have licensed CD-I? Those
same folks of course. Years ago, several companies licensed both Beta and
VHS and let sales decide which they ended up with. Same for 8-track vs
cassette players for cars, Dolby vs DBX noise reduction systems, even
MS-DOS vs an alternate OS.
The big question then left is 'who would want one?'
What would an average home user do with an interactive video
system? As an encyclopedia lookup comes to mind…but the books are
cheaper. For games…$1,000 is a heck of a lot just for the machine…even
if the disks only cost $49 (which one supposedly does). 'How to' type
applications, sounds like a natural…but it'd be inconvenient. If you
want to see how to wire an outlet, plumb in a sink, fix your car…it's
very handy (and in some cases essential) to have the book right beside you
while you do the task. And the book is still cheaper.
Home study…good application, limited market. School use, also a
good application, also limited market.
Don't get me wrong…there are applications that an interactive
video machine would be fantastic for. But the applications I can think of
off hand, are not home type applications. They're things like sales
kiosks, information centers, on-line reference manuals in a library, etc.
Find an application that will catch the imagination of the home
user, and has the possibility of continued sales for that application…and
no matter which format it's in (CD-I or CDTV)…and you've found the
winner.
Don
Kevin:
Perhaps a cross-licenseing agreement, so players can be CDTV/CD-I
compatible? BTW, does CDTV have ANY advantages (to the casual user, not us
Amiga types) over the CD-I?
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
You don't have to call it a computer, you could call it "interactive TV" or
somesuch. Anyhoo, it would be used as a computer with only minimal user
interaction, and with a maximum of online, reference-style storage. This
machine would seem to dovetail nicely with Amigavision as a development
platform.
John
You've hit the nail on the head. "allow third-party stero[sic] companies
to license the technology"… Hopefully Commodore has learned something
from Sony. Sony "invented" the VCR with beta format. The inferior VHS
format took over because Sony would not license beta to competitors soon
enough to keep the market.
My understanding is that the delay in CD-I has been due to a) the current
price point of the proposed technology and b) lack of a commitment from the
software vendors. Commodore: a) owns the Amiga technology and b) has 5
years of third party software development experience on the platform with
massive pressure from those developers to MARKET the Amiga technology.
CDTV could take over as long as Commodore listens to you and shares the
technology.
– Don Nafis – Nazlo Associates Ltd –
Don,
Humm…
Several companies had Beta units on the market…among those I
remember were Sanyo, Zenith and Sears (built by Hitachi). The killer
wasn't lack of licensing…it was price.
BTW…are you aware that Sony also 'invented' the VHS format, but
decided to not use it (and sold it to JVC) because of its inferior quality.
Don
Don,
Hmmm…I thought Beta lost the war mainly because of inferior marketing,
coupled with (initially) the lack of an inferior (that is, EP-like)
recording speed. ???
-Dave
David,
The main reason was price. Recording time was an issue…but
really only a minor issue. A friend and I bought machines at about the
same time (back in the 70's). I got a beta unit, he got a VHS. We both
had equal recording time, I had a better picture (much better…the VHS
picture wasn't even close). Mine cost $1,000 his cost $700 to $800.
About 4 years ago…I replaced my equipment. I bought a good Beta
unit and a good VHS unit. They are about equivalent in features, but even
then, the Beta unit was about $350 and the VHS about $250.
Again, the Beta is clearly the better machine. Even at Beta III
speed, the picture is clearly better than the VHS's best speed (SP).
Price is normally a major factor in general consumer buying, and
this case is no exception.
Don
David-
Beta lost the war because of inferior marketing, not licensing the
format to a lot of other firms (thereby creating a standard) and because
there initial format (Beta I) only had a one-hour record time.
It's generally acknowledged that Beta's quality was a little better than
VHS, but not enough to make the difference. Now, ED Beta…that's
different. Me, I'm into laser disks now, and use an old Sony SL900 Beta
and a Mitsubishi HS-U80 VHS machine.
Tim
If anyone has an interest in the Beta vs VHS history, I think the Video
Hardware lib of CEFORUM has a long (50K+) text file on it… called BET*
something or other. Fascinating to read the incredibly stupid mistakes made
along the line. Basically it boiled down to: they didn't realize that
Americans are gadget lovers and like neat features standard… amongst
other goofups.
I still remember my first SL5400 Beta. Bought a 3-tape autochanger for it,
in fact. Wild to watch this Rube Goldberg mechanism work. I also remember
making friends with an early videotape store owner, in order to get a
special deal of 10 blank tapes (120 minute) at a time for $150. Must have
paid well over $1000 just for blank tapes the first year!
Don:
But wouldn't that mean sharing the Amiga technology? Are we talking
"AmigaDOS, or 100% compatibles" like they do about a different OS? Would
that in large help or kill the Amiga?
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
Agreed. "CDTV" is a lot catchier name than "CD-I"!
And as you say, if CBM were to license the technology, they could have one
heck of a winner. How likely is this? Dunno. Sure would make a difference.
I'm not sure that a year of sales would help. After all, I bought one of
the first Sony Beta units ($1400 !!) and was very happy. Years later I find
myself a minority (but still happy as I can buy blank tapes)…
But home interactive CD systems are more like game machines in one way at
least: you must rely on prepackaged titles. People (past the first gee-whiz
buyers) won't care about internal technology… they're going to want the
most selection of discs and visible user features. Name brand recognition
may be quite important, also.
I really like one thing about CDTV tho: it should light a fire under
Sony/Philips <grin>. Now if they do get their home players to market in the
summer, then CBM will have only 6 months to get a foothold. Can they do it?
best – kev
The big advantages that Commodore has over CD-I is that *anybody* can make
a CDTV disk as long as he has an Amiga. The same can't be said for CD-I.
In addition, if CBM licensed the CDTV format to stero companies to enlarge
the hardware base, and built general purpose cd-rom players for Amigas that
can play CDTV, they would have a good general package. In addition, by
licensing the technology to third parties, CBM puts itself in a position of
market leader immediately. A good example for this is the clone market.
Because of IBM clones, IBM, Microsoft, and all the various clone companies
have done spectacularly, chiefly because of computer companies copying IBM
in the early 80's.
John
John –
IF Commodore licensed out the Amiga chips and their CDTV specs (which is a
big IF), to whom would they do so? Sony, Philips, Matsushita, Hitachi,
Nihon, Thomson, Sangyo, and Toshiba all have millions invested in CD-I. I
suppose they could find someone. That's IF CBM were to license, which I
doubt.
Sure, "anybody can make a CDTV disc as long as he has an Amiga". You can
now buy a CD-I player along with some test authoring software. And Amigas
have sometimes been used to create CD-I audio files. But you're right: so
far most people develop titles on larger systems, such as a network of
Suns. Why? Because…
"Anybody" is a bit broad. "Anybody" can make their own CD-A disc, too.
"Anybody" can make a CDROM disc for a PC/Mac. But "Anybody" doesn't.
You'd usually want a 1.2 gigabyte drive to develop on, for example, and
probably a nice data tape drive for transfers. (Or do you have visions of
Joe Amiga-owner sending over 700 floppy disks from his latest and greatest
AmigaVision novel, to somebody who'll create the 650 meg CDROM? 🙂 And
someone has to create all this data. Plus to get the right effect, you'll
need to exactly duplicate reading a CDROM player to see if your program
works the way you expected.
Also you'll need a custom file manager or program to block the data out to
CDROM formats; decide where you want the data on the CDROM for best access
speed; and then send it on acceptable media to a mastering facility. This
all assumes CBM themselves don't go into the mastering biz… hmm… that'd
be a nice lockup wouldn't it? Only place which would accept AmigaDOS
files… they may have this in mind; who knows?
Anyway, sure it can be done, with some nice facilities. A slick setup might
be this: a production studio with a half-dozen networked Amigas, to create
and test the data/programs. Now that's a thought. – kev
By anybody I meant that anybody who is willing to develop on an Amiga can
develop a CDTV application, that expensive and exhorbitant hardware
wouldn't be necessary to develop applications for CDTV. An Amiga 2500/30
with a large enough hard drive to handle it would be enough. True,
developing a CD-ROM application will require a lot more than just powering
up an A500 with Amiga Basic(icch!). By anybody, I mean that you will not
need to plunk down $20-30k before you even begin, that you could start with
much less and manage to get a rough around the edges app that could be
converted into something runnable on CDROM with reasonable quality.
John
John,
Okay, I'll change and agree: you could make a rough app using an
A2500/30… or even a nice one given enough time. And with a good digitizer
setup and either AmigaVision or something else, anyone could theoretically
do so.
You could do the same with an inexpensive computer for CD-I. As I said, you
can even develop on the player itself if you wished… or on an Amiga if
you wished to cut video quality. That's been partially done before by both
Electronic Arts and Aegis for CD-I demos.
But the really decent stuff is going to need studios, emulation equipment,
very good digitizing hardware, and staff. By decent I mean discs which'll
give the machine a good reputation.
Someone will need to convince a mastering company to accept this stuff,
tho. I really do wonder if CBM has plans up their sleeve for this.
<grin> I can see it now: Dad makes interactive video of his kids' life…
sends it and $1499 to CBM for a dozen discs to give to relatives.
Seriously. Almost. 😉 This could give new meaning to boring home movies.
"Okay, now you click here to hear his first words….."
John,
The IBM clone makers didn't license diddly. The technology was off
the shelf hardware. The OS was available to anyone and the BIOS was
're-invented' by third party vendors (like Phoenix and Award) such that it
didn't require any license from IBM to be sold.
Don
True, but MS-DOS computers are all over the place, and the fact that cheap
compatibles came out made it more likely for software to be written, which
in turn sells more systems.
IBM didn't like the fact that there were clones, but in the long run, it
helped the company.
John
John,
That's true…I was just responding to the message where you said
that IBM licensed and succeeded where those that didn't license their
technology failed.
The IBM was copied…but it had nothing to do with IBM licensing
it.
Don
"One" reason VHS beat out Beta was availability of software for VHS greatly
exceeded that for BETA; sort of like in some computers
Stanley,
"Software" ????
I presume you mean pre-recorded video tapes. You seem to forget
that originally there were only Beta tapes. VHS didn't come out until Beta
had been on the scene for a while.
Also, unlike computers, to "port" a tape, you only need a different
tape duplicator. The tape companies simply tapes based on customer demand.
As demand for VHS grew, so did the availability of pre-recorded tapes. As
the demand for Beta slowed, so did the availability of pre-recorded tapes.
Howver, so far, I've yet to find a title that's not available on
Beta, you just have to look a lot harder to find it.
Don
Don – in my part of the country at least, availability of vhs tapes always
far exceeded beta…so when choosing a vcr, most consumers chose vhs. That
set up a self-feeding cycle
Stan-
Yeah, well there're about 16000 programs around for an Apple II, but *I*
ain't gonna buy one…
Tim
Tim-
Right, but an awful lot of educators, for example, buy Apple IIGS
machineather than Amigas because they perceive availability of software to
be a determining criteria in purchase decisions (our local schools, for
example)…
Stan Anderson
Actually, this is the perfect time for C= to come out with a competing
product to CD-I, since CD-I for all practical purposes does not exist. If
C= had come out w/ a CD-I product, it would be much more of a "me-too" type
of thing, and they'd probably end up releasing along with lots of other
people. W/ CDTV, they've really got the drop on CD-I. Besides, CDTV seems
technically to give you alot more than CD-I would.
-Mike
Last year would've been a perfect time <g>, when they could've beaten CD-I
to the home market by more than a year. Not so sure about now.
CD-I/CDTV sound like exactly the same things, except that…
CD-I has this going for it (uniquely):
* The originators of CDROM and CD-A are behind it.
* Technology is licensed to many big-name companies.
* Title work has been going on for over 3 years now.
* GFX capabilities are far beyond current Amiga technology.
CDTV has this going for it (uniquely):
* Plays CD+G discs. Not a lot of those around, I think. No big deal (yet).
* Development should be possible on Amigas. This gives them a broader
_possible_ range of writers. CBM will need to follow up with production
help/services in order to take full advantage here, tho (listening, CBM?).
Hi folks,
I'm a Mac Plus user who's really excited about the prospect of CDTV. The
idea of integrating the graphic and sound capabilited of the Amiga with an
entertainment system seems like a natural to me. (In fact, I'm drooling
with anticipation!) Anyway, some comments about the CDTV vs CD-I debate…
I really haven't heard anything about CD-I, so my comments below are based
upon what I think is likely rather than actual knowledge. I would
appreciate it if someone in the know corrected any misapprehensions that I
might have.
It seems to me that Amiga is able to produce its CD machine with a
(relatively) minimal adaptation of its very powerful and proven hardware.
On the other hand CD-I floats in the nebulous future of ISDN and flat
screen TVs in my mind, and considering how little I've heard about it, I
don't think that it would ready nearly as soon as the CDTV. Moreover I
have to wonder if it could match Amiga's graphic and sound capabilities,
especially at Amiga's price.
The CDTV has the advantage of the large base of existing applications that
can be readily modified to work on the CDTV. And perhaps more importantly,
its got a large base of developers who are familiar with the machine.
The fact that CDTV will be convertable to a full fledged personal computer
simply through adding a few peripherals is also an advantage and I doubt
that this would be possible with CD-I.
Given Commodore's willingness to work for compatibility (witness the the
design of the newer series, which are BUILT with IBM slots), I expect that
they would also make CD-I compatibility available for CDTV if that became
an established standard.
–Pat
Hi Pat. I've been following CD-I for some years now. Here's what I know of
it:
CD-I was started in early 1987. It was planned as a home hypermedia system.
It was originally supposed to hit the consumer market at Christmas 1988.
I'm not sure why it didn't, tho lack of completed titles at the time may
have been part of the delay.
Then it was supposed to hit in 1989. The original (industrial) units did
so. They're used as interactive trainers for military doctors worldwide,
promotional interactive discs are being made for various companies, there
will soon be point of sale kiosks in music stores containing a CD-I machine
and touchscreen for previewing new music, and a museum in Mexico is being
designed entirely around CD-I based information points.
So CD-I itself has been ready for some time now. It is a mature technology,
with outstanding graphics. The consumer units have been delayed recently in
order to add full-motion, full-screen video capabilities from disc in
realtime (see latest Radio-Electronics magazine What's New section).
In any event, the gfx are far beyond CBMs current technology. And Philips
planned to sell the first players at below cost in order to gain early
buyers.
CD-I machines _are_ expandable into personal computers. Multitasking/user
ones. I've heard predictions that up to 25% of sales may go that way. The
expansion unit comes with ram, 3.5 drives, SCSI, and other ports. I've seen
it and used it. best – kev
Somewhere on an electronic medium I saw someone claim to have seen at
Comdex a Yamaha box that said "Compact Disc Interactive" on the side. I
nudged him for more info–maybe I should go looking for Comdex reports.
Kevin,
Thanks for your reply and your comments on the rest of the thread – they
have educated me far beyond what the (few) printed sources that I've seen
have told me.
CD-I does sound much more appealing than I would have expected. I guess a
year or two will tell what will be available and how these two systems live
up to their promise. It sounds like CD-I compatibility will be a necessity
for CDTV. I expect that Commodore's announcement will at least bring about
competition and the advantages to consumers that it inspires.
Heading back into "Read Only Mode" myself, thanks again
–Pat
Pat,
Thanks. Mind you, CDTV appeals to me a lot. Not the concept, because that
originated with CD-I. And not the hardware. But the cleverness of using
existing components (which means the cleverness of the Amiga at the base)
is kinda neat.
Perhaps there _is_ room for both; witness video game consoles. Hard to
tell. I still shudder to think of CBM trying to sell CDTV players in stores
against CD-I players from Sony, Philips, Sanyo, JVC, Toshiba, Yamaha, JVC,
etc.
Note that I _am_ biased tho. The thought of millions of OS-9 based
computers out in consumer hands makes me drool (just as CDTV would make an
AmigaOS programmer drool – grin). And a new computer we're working on uses
the core CD-I cpu/video chips, so I know much of the technical superiority.
At the same time, I've talked CD-I developers into using Amigas for some
work on titles before… they both use IFF files for that.
But I'd say you're right: wait and see what happens. I wouldn't be
surprised at all if CBM updated their CDTV capabilities using whatever they
plan to add to the A2000/3000 video slots. CBM's on a roll, if they do
things well.
best – kev
PS: y'know, if they went with CD-XA instead, they could scoop the market.
You keep saying how the CD-I graphics are 'far beyond' CDTV. I would remind
you that 320*200 is nothing to write home about, and that 8 bits per pixel
is different, not necessarily better than, HAM.
-larry
Larry – Glad you asked. About a month ago I posted a long message here
listing CD-I video modes, and gave most of the current CD-I vs CDTV
arguments in a nutshell. This was in response to Bandito's May 1990 Amazing
Computing article. I guess because CDTV hadn't been announced yet, no one
paid any attention ;-).
DISPLAY PLANES SIZES. All your usual Amiga TV favorites are there:
360/720 by 240/480 (NTSC), or 384/768 by 280/560 (PAL)
VIDEO PLANES. There are four. Backdrop/external video, plane B, plane A,
and cursor at the front. Planes A and B may be swapped in priority. So far
it sounds like dual playfields on the Amiga. Similar, but…
There is a full video chip and 512K RAM for EACH image plane. Each image
can be almost any mode (see below), changeable on a line/line basis… and
each can be dissolved, color-keyed, wiped, or overlaid with transparency,
in _hardware_.
COLOR MODES. I guess a straight list will do.
Delta YUV: 4/2/2 quantitized luminance/color changes. (super HAM)
RGB 555 : 15-bits/pixel (5 bits each R/G/B direct color. Uses both
planes)
CLUT 8 : 8-bits/pixel from choice of 16.7 million colors
CLUT 7 : 7-bits/pixel from " …
CLUT 4 : 4-bits/pixel from " …
RLE 7 : 7-bits/pixel from " …, run-length encoded/decoded on fly.
RLE 3 : 3-bits/pixel from " …, " "
Drooling yet? 32,000+ colors/pixel (RGB555) makes me slobber. <cont'd>
<cont'd> Then we must add in the new fullscreen/fullmotion realtime video
decoding from disc (which I have little info on). Betcha it goes into one
plane, which STILL gives you another full video chip plane to overlay
menus/gfx/animation with. Plus the CD quality audio SFX generator/mixer
chips.
Each plane has its own blitter/coprocessor, I believe. CPU->video RAM
accesses (assuming coproc not running on that plane) are always interleaved
half and half. None of that silly hires cpu lockout like on the Amiga.
The processor is a 15Mhz 68070, with dual channel DMA. There is also the
main OS in ROM, 8K of non-volatile RAM for system and application use, and
a realtime clock/calendar. All this, versus CDTV based on an A500 chassis?
Throw the expansion unit with SCSI, serial, parallel, drives, RAM, and
keyboard on this puppy, and it's one sweet CDROM/video machine. And yes,
running multitasking/user OS-9. Or GEM, for that matter. Or Tripos. Or
UniFlex (SVR4 compatible… virtual mem and uses the cpu's built-in MMU for
full protection). They're all available for the base 68070.
So to be quite blunt, CBM is da*ned lucky that the CD-I players hadn't made
it out already to consumers! This is the base machine Commodore themselves
_should've_ come out with two years ago. And when it hits, you can start
kissing CDTV goodbye. Maybe more. IMHO, of course. Which is why I think CBM
must be feverishly working on a basic Amiga video upgrade. – kev
PS: I *told* you not to ask <smile>!
CD-I sounds like one impressive format! I can see where CBM would want
to be a big player in such a market. And would have some of the expertise
to do so. I still have a hunch that they'll be looking to be compatible
with both their own and the (at this point) wider-supported format.
=Tom=
68070?
Got any specs on it? (Is is cheap? (er…inexpensive) How fast?)
Pat,
One thing….
your statement 'witness the design of the newer series, which are
BUILT with IBM slots' makes me believe that you're under the impression
that the slots are new, and that the Amiga itself uses them.
Both impressions (if those are indeed your impressions) are wrong.
The A2000 has had IBM compatible slots in it since day 1 (which was several
years ago) so they're nothing new. However, those slots are for use by the
Bridge Board…which is an IBM PC/XT or AT on a board that fits inside the
AMiga.
The Amiga itself doesn't use those slots…the only thing in common
between the AMiga and those slots is the power supply. IBM boards can not
be used by the Amiga alone.
However, if you do have the BridgeBoard (the PC on a board)
installed, then you can share a few things from one side to hte other..in
particular, either side can use the other side's hard drive.
I realize that wasn't to your point about CDTV vs CD-I, so I'll
comment on that also. Presuming that CDTV gets to market first (it's not
supposed to be available until later this year…perhaps by Christmas??)
and CD-I doesn't quickly follow on the market … then CDTV may well
become the defacto standard. Especially if CD-I, when it gets to the
market costs twice as much (as is speculated now).
Don
Don,
By "newer machines" I meant the 2000 series onwards, and was aware of the
need for the bridgeboard for them to be usable. My point was the effort of
Commodore to promote compatibility (to the limited extent possible with
different processors). As a Mac user, I can tell you that I find the idea
of Apple doing something similar is ludicrous.
Hitting market first is a dubious advantage (witness the obvious beta vs.
VHS analogy). However, HALF the price will make all the difference in the
world, especially if the CDTV has approximately a years lead on CD-I. For
me, at least, the marginal value of the extra qualities of CD-I will not be
worth double the price.
–Pat
Hmm. Good points, all of 'em. Could CBM maybe be intending to later
offer the same technology as CD-I, thinking of an "upgrade" path for
existing CDTV owners?
=Tom=
They do mention one internal expansion slot inside CDTV (they call it a DMA
slot for networking and expansion, sounds like Zorro to me), that was on
the CES info pack.
Ben
No, doubtful that CBM would offer CD-I compatability.
Ummm… but if they manage to set things up so that Amiga owners/CDTV
owners have some kind of cross-connectivity (say, CDROM player for Amiga
computers which lets you use CDTV stuff), then they could carve out a
workable niche for themselves. And sell more Amigas <grin>.
Note: games will not be the main seller in this market, I'd think. At least
not at first. CDROM-based game machines are available now, aren't they? I
don't think they sell a lot. If you could buy a CD player for an A500,
wouldn't you rather do that than pay $1000 for a non-programmable CDTV
unit?
That's why a month or so ago, I posted a message with my opinions on this:
CBM should either (or both):
* Drop the consumer market, and go for current Amiga-specific CDROM apps
(for the A500/2000/3000)… that is, go against DVI instead… their
traditional Amiga vs IBM vs Apple mode.
* License CD-I if they wish to sell lots of home appliance boxes.
Kevin,
Look at it this way…others may have licensed CD-I…but what do
they have to show for it? This may well end up being a first to market,
wins situtation. Especially if CBM is willing to license the technology
for it.
Also, the fact that the announced price will be about 1/2 the
expected price of CD-I units also bodes well for Commodore.
The consumer market is quite volitile, but it's main driving force
seems to be price over quality (witness the Beta vs VHS issue). With CDTV
seeming to have both price and quality…and being first to market.. it may
well be the 'winner' over CD-I.
Don
Don,
Yup, I agree…. price over quality wins the masses. But the last I heard,
CD-I players were to be just under $1000, same as CDTV. Heard anything
different?
kev
Kev,
Last thing I heard…CD-I players were to be in the $2,000 range.
That's mostly rumor though, I don't have any specific facts that that will
in fact be a 'normal' range for a CD-I setup.
Don
Hmm… that sounds like the "industrial" unit pricing, perhaps.
The consumer versions are (or were, a year or so back was the last I kept
up with the price) supposed to be sold at like $999… no matter what the
actual cost was. Philips themselves were going to underwrite some of the
price in order to get early buyers.
Since then, RAM and CDROM drives have gone down $$-wise, so I suppose CD-I
could go even cheaper if they have to. And since players and chips/etc have
been shipping for several months now, pricing should go down even more.
Within a year the price was planned to drop to the $500 range, and continue
downward as the market built up.
One good thing about either home unit is this: if they sell well, CDROM
drive prices should really come down. I'm looking forward to that! – kev
Kevin,
Is it not true that the CD-I differs from the CDTV especially in the DOS –
that the CD-I runs OS-9? And that you have a particular interest in OS-9?
(I don't know enough about this to argue, just wondered.)
……Betty
Betty,
It's true that CD-I uses an OS-9 derivative… I've mentioned this quite a
few times over the years here. And yep, I have a particular interest in
OS9. Figured that was well-known here. So I mentioned my OS9 bias in msg
#108159 because that particular reader wasn't a regular here.
Do you mean: would that be enough to cause me to assert that CD-I will do
better than CDTV? Nope. First, graphics and hardware are my first loves…
way over OS's. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought an Amiga <smile>. Second,
OS diffs don't matter in a consumer device. Third, I'm pragmatic. You've
never seen me up here asking anyone or everyone to switch to OS9.. wouldn't
happen. And last, my preference could only apply to machines converted into
personals, not the base box which will be the overwhelming majority of
_home consumer_ sales. Plus heck, people could still run OS9 on the
expanded CDTV player.
So I'm happy no matter which one does best. I love all Motorola machines.
If all else were equal, I'd say CDTV was a clear winning setup. But… it
ain't equal.
The _special_ difference between CD-I/CDTV is _not_ which OS they use.
After all, the common consumer won't care. CD-I could use MSDOS, and CDTV
use OS/2, and my opinion still wouldn't change. Because it wouldn't affect
the major diffs: the hardware and the broadness of backing.
For example, if a proprietary player from Atari (another possible source of
games and apps) went up against a player with superior gfx available from
Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Yamaha, Toshiba, etc … which would you invest in?
😉
Note that if CBM were to license their stuff out to all those companies
also, then I'd personally go with CDTV (the odds seem awfully slim for that
tho). Still, I'm open to counterarguments (I can think of a few myself).
best – kev
Kev, I'd like to point something out. Just food for thought.
When the IBM pC was released, it was garbage. It was slow, it used outdated
tech, it had minimal memory, it was single tasking, it gfx capabilities
were unbelieveably bad, just a huge long list of inferiority and poor
design decisions.
It sold. Like wildfire. Beacause people thought they wanted it. Not because
they did, not because it was better, not because it was whiz-bang. A good
deal because it was hyped in the correct manner, by everyone.
And something important – you could buy one, more or less right away after
deciding you wanted it, tho there was an order backlog.
There is a huge potential for success for CDTV, if it meets 2 criteria –
the same ones the IBM Pc did:
(1) It becomes available
(2) It works.
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
Ben,
Right, the IBM was marketed well. And the C64 sold for some of the same
reasons. So did VHS.
So you're saying that we may once again go through years of catching back
up to the state of the art, just because of better marketing? You may be
right. But it'd nice to avoid that trap this time.
Kev
It'd be nice (for us Amiga types) if we didn't, in fact. Remeber who you're
addressing, here. :^)
And that is exactly what I am saying. The American public has proved time
and time again that it has no idea what is best for it. To repeat a
favorite quote of mine, with substitutible areas:
[Democracy] is the theory that the common people know what they want, and
deserve to get it – Good and hard!
— H. L Mencken
Ben
Amateur Radio Callsign is A A 7 A S
"Conversion could be done of course, but slowly." Am I missing something,
or isn't that exactly what Denise does (in reverse, of course)? I don't
see that it would be THAT difficult to build such a chip.
Victor A. Wagner, Jr.
Vic,
Ummm… well, let's say you were reading in CD-I video files (that's what
we're talking about, right?). The application program itself might not be a
problem, as you could run a port of CD-RTOS (the CD-I OS).
The video data is (usually) in native "chunky" pixel style… that is, one
byte equals one pixel (or one byte = two pixels side by side in 640/720/768
mode). You'd have to break that out into separate bit planes on the current
Amiga chips, yah?
Throw in color RLE files, 16-bit/pixel files, dual 256-color/pixel
playfields, DYUV files, and a few other CD-I modes, and the 68000 would be
kept busy doing conversions. Having done the opposite (playing Amiga
animations on the CD-I video chip) conversion myself, I can attest to that
<grin>.
Then there's hardware fades and realtime decompression of fullmotion video
on the CD-I chips also. And an audio S/FX processor, DMA, non-volatile RAM,
RTC, and other things you'd need to have standard. It's like an Amiga ** 2.
Could a clone chipset be built? Sure. Will CBM do so? Doubtful. Hmmm… but
what if they licensed the CD-I chips to go on video cards? Maybe. CD-I is a
total hardware/software standard. You either have it or you don't. Kinda
like trying to emulate an Amiga using an ST. best – kev
Kevin,
I've been absorbing your messages on CDTV for some days now; I'm glad
you're here to help put this new thingie into perspective for us. And with
technical background to boot.
I must say, though, that unless CDTV outpaces CD-I by YEARS, I fear for
its life. Even those outside of our "techno-head" ranks have learned (often
the hard way) how newly advanced electronics gets cheaper almost
immediately, sometimes dropping a 1/3 to a 1/2 in a year, and occasionally,
becoming incompatible. VCR's, early home-computers, game-machines, portable
telephones, etc, have all burned quite a few early-birds. Those who weren't
burned directly usually know someone who has, like someone who has a RCA
videodisk player in the closet. Most people now think themselves shrewd
waiting at least a few months before grabbing at anything new, sometimes
intentionally doing a little research by the way of reading reviews etc.
Although this is an exciting announcement, and I hope CBM pulls it off,
CDTV has two counts against it, IMHO. First, it's first (assuming it really
does appear before consumer CD-I units). Many consider this a key
advantage; I'm not so sure. The announcement and even the delivery mean
nothing unless impressive applications exist concurrently. Doo-dad fanatics
will snarf some up, but the masses will wait, either for some killer
application that's so attractive it doesn't matter what the format is, or
to see if CDTV is "going to live". Second, by your descriptions, it's
inferior in some important ways. All the CD-I proponents have to do is play
these up, demonstrating some CD-I features that CDTV can't do, and that
could be the end of it, considering CD-I's massive backing.
As I say, I hope I'm wrong. CBM could use a coup like this, and their
newfound marketing abilities make it a possibility. But I think they're at
a disadvantage if the graphics are inferior. The general public isn't as
ignorant as it was five years ago.
Karl
Karl,
I've never really put much thought into it before (so I'm thinking out loud
right now), but I also am beginning to wonder just how well (either)
interactive video players would sell.
As you and Don have said, the apps need to be perceived as needed, or
really neat. And they can't rely on a keyboard for input, obviously…
which means they're best suited for looking things up, versus what most of
us would consider real applications.
After people learned that computers won't solve your checking account or
grocery list problems <grin>, they might indeed look askance at this newly
rewrapped stuff. Hundreds of recipes on disc? I've got that already on my
computer. Do I use it? No. Would I use a CD player to look up recipes just
because it could also show videos of the food? I really don't know.
The key market will be educational… and has been so far for CD-I, for
example: medical training discs, travel/vacation "brochures", Sesame Street
preschool discs, remote musuem tours, technical and repair manuals…
anything which doesn't change a lot. Digression: neat grid from Knowledge
Access International on Info Needs vs. Rate of Change –
———————————–
Urgent | DisasterInfo | Poisons | Stocks |
Need |————–|———|——–|
| Research | Repair | News |
|————–|———|——–|
Non- | Encyclopedia | Stats | Phone# |
urgent ———————————–
slow change <————> rapid
Anyway, you might sell players as encyclopedias for kids. But will home
buyers pay $1000 just to access other stuff? Dunno. They don't buy VCRs
just to get travel or exercise videos… works the other way: gotta have
VCR first ;-).
So, first market: companies/schools. Later, $500 players get home
consumers. Thoughts?
Hmm.. since CDTV is a stand-alone unit, why not use it in places other than
the home? The first thing that comes to my mind is cars. How about a
CDROM with the map (in very high details) of an area like DC where you
could call up virtually any street, apt #, address, telephone, etc. It
would be like a yellow pages/while pages/map guide all in one. That would
be quire err, quite useful for people who drive around a bit. Another
would be a CDROM that covers all of the US with all interstates and other
routes. I think there are programs out there that do this kind of job, but
it should really be in-car rather than a desktop application. I think that
CDTV sounds like a real nice unit to have in the car. (grin)
I can think up lots of other ideas but I'll stop here. (had to put my 2
cents' worth in 🙂
Khalid.
Khalid,
You should be in marketing! <I'm grinning because you already are :->
CDROM in cars? You bet. In Jan 1987, the following comments were made by
some companies on that very subject (substitute CDTV for CD-I if you wish):
Toshiba EMI : CD-I applications in vehicle navigation are four to five
years in the future.
Nihon Columbia : Anticipates a large demand for CD-I vehicle navigation
systems, and is aggressively proceeding with plans in that area.
Victor of Japan: Sees CD-I applications in vehicle navigation appearing two
years after the introduction of the first CD-I systems.
BTW, the CD-I cpu/video chips are both low-power CMOS technology, in
anticipation of apps like this. Kev
Khalid,
Humm…would you rather spend $5 on a map, or $1200 on a CDTV
device with the same map on it?
Remember…you can't (or perhaps the better word is "shouldn't")
try reading a map (either kind) while you're driving…so you'd have to
pull off the road no matter what. Also…a whole lot less worry about
having a map stolen from the car vs a CDTV unit.
Don
Khalid:
Bingo! You just got me thinking (yes, I do that once in a while–Usually on
odd numbered Thursdays) about motor vehicles! I used to drive a cab, and
it's common practice for newer drivers (and even some of us old timers) to
carry a phone book to look up business addresses (dispatcher will say
something like "Pickup at Top-of-The-Home" and unless you knew where that
place was, you'd be SOL unless the dispatcher was in a friendly mood–not
likely). These days many of the cabs already have Computer terminals in the
cabs, it could be very easily expanded to an actuall computer that could
display not only the street address, but also a small map of the area of
the pickup! Another use might be to input starting address, and destination
address, and have a CDROM show a map, and the computer could show the route
on that map (idiot proof cabs!) Now to call Motorola and talk to them about
it…
-Mike Schiller
CIS: 76416,3065
Well, encyclopedias aren't exactly cheap to begin with. My parents bought
ours back in the 1972 and it cost over $100 back then. So, $1000 now for
a video encyclopedia isn't that much more.
John
That's true. Encyclopedias are expensive. And a CDROM based one would be
easier to update. Or carry to college <g>.
I agree that the most obvious (and perhaps most successful) applications
will be educational first. I would guess encyclopedias foremost, followed
by, as you say, museum tours, etc.
Unfortunately, as you get away from the broad-based appeal of an
encyclopedia, and into more interesting, specific research areas, the size
of the market will be small. That is, let's say I'm a civil war buff, and
I'd love to have oodles of civil war info (much more detailed than an
encyclopedia would have) on CD-ROM. Would I also be likely to own such a
device? Are there enough of me in the world for someone to go to the work
and expense to produce such a narrow-topic disk? Certainly, applications
like that would work wonderfully on that medium, what with text, pictures,
diagrams of battle movements, video of reenactments, etc. And so would be a
myriad of topics like this. But where's the volume to justify it?
This may be an unbreakable impasse unless 1) carefully picked
applications can be found that would have a broad enough appeal and/or 2)
there is some way for an organization that already has such info in some
other format to easily (and cheaply) convert it, so that they don't have to
sell as many units to justify the trouble.
Sounds like the book publishing biz, eh? I suppose we can assume that
sooner or later someone would get around to providing for smaller specific
markets. If the return is big enough.
Actually making the physical disc is pretty cheap (say, $1500 for mastering
and <$2 per disc thereafter) these days. And that includes labels and jewel
disc cases. Almost peanuts. [lurkers: discs are stamped from a nickel
master negative]
Collecting, creating and organizing the data takes mainly time (and for
quality, some good digitizing equipment of course). Figuring out the
"hyper" navigation paths takes some time, too; along with testing along the
way. A single person with an Amiga could certainly do all this, given
enough time. Or… a _group_ of Civil War buffs (in your example) could
each work on sections, and modem/mail their work to a central coordinator
along the way. (This could make clubs of all types quite interesting in the
future!)
So they could create the disc, raise some money, and have discs stamped.
You brought up a possible impasse: would there be enough other buffs with
equipment able to read the disc? Dunno. But let's say yes for argument.
A commercial venture would involve several hundred thousand dollars in
making a disc… and may not see your example as worthwhile. But a club
effort (where no one is paid) might indeed pull it off. Hmmm… sounds like
home publishing, doesn't it? Fanzines, etc.
If I were rich, I'd do something like this: set up a company to provide
tools and Amigas… lease them out to clubs, researchers, businesses… and
then also provide the service of sending the final version to be mastered.
There are a lot of special interest groups in this country who could use
such a service. Profitable? Thoughts?
Educational yes, but I see another great market looming…. (gag) Corporate
Training. The company I work for (big) spends huge bucks on training
materials and courses right now. My postion was 1.5 years studying before
I ever did anything usefulf for them (I felt, at least). So, interactive
training, simualations, etc. A HUGE MARKET. (IF the hardware/software
comes along) –jp–
I know one group who has tons of data that I'd like to get ahold of in
CDROM format. NASA has terabytes of raw image data wasting away on tape in
some dark basement somewhere, that is sure to be lost or never seen unless
it's distributed somehow. Theres probably some very startling info
contained in that data that no one will ever see, due to the sheer bulk of
data. A simple way around this is to distribute it so that millions of
people can study it. Actually whats even better, NASA could make money by
distributing the info, while at the same time, preserving that which is
soon to be lost.
Dean
DKB Software
Are we forgetting the ability of the Amiga to use Genlocks? Why could you
not have the Amiga tell the CD ROM Unit…play these sequences, and let me
know when you are through? Sort of like what VIVA! does and I guess now
AmigaVision.
I am not sure why it would be important to let the Amiga actually build the
displays. It would be nice.. I think, but what would be the real
difference?
-mark=
Mark,
That's a really good question. I guess one answer is: by having the
computer accessing all data from the CDROM, you are also able to place the
program and index on the disc…. readable at any time.
Otherwise a home player would need a disk drive (or a HD slot – grin) to
hold all that needed info for any disc application. Now, if you had TWO
CDROM drives…. ah, what an idea! Maybe one day when those things get
cheap, eh?
One related, tho minor, thing is this btw: interactive CDROM programs
usually preload sound/video files before the user takes a decision
branch… the idea is to play the loaded stuff while the relatively slow
CDROM drive seeks to another position and reads in more data. This gives
the illusion of continuity to the user (something is always happening).
best – kev
You know what's really GREAT about this CD stuff? The really huge
applications on these CD's will keep people from pirating them!! It should
stop those jokers dead in their tracks.
Steve
We all have sort of decided that Commodore has created their own format for
the disks, I love all the arguments on this by the way. 🙂 So, it could
be possible (I suppose) to have the disk set up with a file system, and
live video. Perhaps 30 meg of the disk for software and the rest live
video/audio.
I doubt it works like this, but it is a thought.
Thanks for not flamming me 🙂
-mark=
Mark,
<grin> Obviously I love the arguments on all this too… I want to get all
the technical/marketing questions out of the way quickly, so we can
speculate on the general public's reaction to interactive video. And think
about what kind of apps lend themselves to it.
Businesses that can afford it (insurance companies, electronics firms
needing to train technicians, large museums, the audio industry, and so on)
have already started getting into interactive video discs.
Public schools will need cheaper players, I'd think, to make them as
available as possible.
Mass home consumers, ditto on price. Hmmm… in fact, they'll almost have
to be educated first as to what interactive video is. Thoughts?
Mark,
Part of the press release said that CDTV would support ISO????
extensions to the filesystem. (can't remember the number, but I'll find
out) So it seems that CBM is at least looking at standards.
One of the major advantages that the Amiga has is the ability to install
new filesystems easily, so if the player is capable of reading the disk,
the Amiga could be made to manipulate the data.
Dean
DKB Software
Mark,
Just found it. CDTV supports ISO 9660 File System.
Dean
DKB Software