Hourly charge?
48 messages in this thread
I know this subject has been brought up a lot, but I haven't seen any
suggestions as to an hourly rate to charge a client. I know it is best to call
around locally and see what others charge, etc., but I am going to have to make
a judgement call for what to charge to a client for what he needs. In this
case it appears he will only need 3 or 4 still shots of a home that I will need
to build in 3D Studio. I have not met with him yet, but I assume that after I
look at what he wants done, he will want a ballpark estimate. Off the top of my
head I will try to figure how many hours it will take, then multiply that by
$72 (hence $72 per hour). Is this rate too low? Too high? I know this is too
broad, not knowing my skills, but I don't want to cut myself short, or
overcharge the client. Any suggestions? Thanks.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
I'm in a mid-sized (?- about 125,000 people <g>) mid-western
city. I've been quoting my time at around $40/hr, but this may be
going up. In producing two architectural renderings, an associate
and I spent about 25 hours total on each one. 25 x $40/hr = $1,000.
This is my general estimate. As our skills increase, we hope to
shave time off and effectively raise our hourly wage. Someone in
Phoenix is charging $1,100. These prices are for photo-realistic
output, and four images/views. Architects are going to want to an
actual number, not $__ per hour.
My overall plan is to be cheap enough to keep them coming to me
rather than investing in-house on people and equipment, yet higher
priced and higher quality than hand rendering. 3DS has a rep for its
steep learning curve, and I use that to my advantage. I also tell
them how much $ it costs for a setup like mine. Also, most
architects I've met have had a hard time with 3D work in ACAD, and
are especially disgusted with the graphic output they've been
getting. They have little desire to learn a new approach (3DS), and
can't justify the weeks (months) of "lost" productivity to learn
3DS. Good for us!
You're out West, right? Oregon?
Paul D. Sanford [LEVEL 5]
>> You're out West, right? Oregon? <<
Yes, Oregon. I've only been here for about 9 months though. I
worked in a business environment for 4 years in Texas, and the reason
I came to a $72 per hour estimate is because that is what our
department charged the other departments within the building for
computer graphic work.
This was not only animation but *any* graphic work, slides,
overheads, paper copy, etc. Our in-house rates were better than
going outside for the same work. Here in Oregon (Eugene area) the
rate is at about $60 per hour for quality graphic design doing
something as simple as re-coloring an already existing graphic for
use in a business card (at least that has been my experience). But
it is true as you mention to try to keep it reasonable for the client
so they do not see the need for in-house production. Thank you for
your candid reply.
James Franssen
Imagination Station
Eugene, eh? Too bad you weren't a little closer to Portland. I just
started up a user group here and it looks like the first meeting is
going to be pretty full. Then again, if you are willing to make the
drive, let me know and I will foward the directions.
My two cents: We generally work out a flat fee based on materials,
rendering time, and how many hours it will take us to do something,
and then double it. We generally bill between 35-45/hour for 3ds
work, depending on how skilled we are at whatever the project might
entail.
>> Eugene, eh? Too bad you weren't a little closer to Portland. I
just started up a user group here and it looks like the first meeting
is going to be pretty full. <<
Are you doing this with Martin Stewart [74274,761]? I replied to a
posting a while back (couple of weeks)…
"If you're in the Portland area and are interested in being a part of
a local 3D Studio User Group or interested in receiving the
newsletter, E-Mail me with you're mailing address"
I E-mailed but never received any reply. I would like info on the
group meeting. Thanks.
I think Martin sent that message. Do you have a fax machine? I will
fax you a flyer you can take a look at that has all the important
data on it. Or, give me a call at 646-5393
Myself and my associate try to stick to a $50 per hour charge for 3DS
work. This is the least we feel our time is worth. Most clients want
a total project cost and could really care less about the hours you
spend doing it. If they knew what was involved, they wouldn't ask for
an animation by tomorrow. We recently bid on a 1.5 minute
presentation animation for $6,000. It involved an incredible amount
of modelling though. Our competitor did the same job on an Amiga for
$10,000, but they squeaked it out in 4 days. We wanted 2 weeks to
complete it, which is why we didn't get the job. We also did a series
of 4 stills that we charged $500 per file. It really depends on the
market and client, we have found no "hard" pricing structure.
Hardcopies and tapes are always extra, we do not mark up these costs
either. If we actually logged the hours spent on a project, not
including render times, the hourly rate would probably be less than
minimum wage 🙂
Most of my time on 3DS is for selling my own design work and not
serving outside clients. These prices may not be realistic for a full
time professional 3D'er.
Well theres my 2 cents, hope it helps.
Mike
Hourly rates are such a nebulous thing in this business. What I fail
to understand is when someone tells me he charges $50 or $75 per
hour for animation work why isn't he bringing home 100,000 – 150,000
per year? I know these people are working many hours on projects. A
current video editor and myself are jointly working on a video
project for an independent producer. He keeps telling me he charges
$75 per hour. Well if it were so the last editing segment he worked
on for 35 hours would have blown the budget for the whole project.
Here's the point: It doesn't matter what you say is the charge per
hour because so many hours never get billed. I spent most of my
working life in industry; and, there, all hours get billed. A wage
earner gets $10 per hour and makes $400 per week. (40 hours) A
manager makes $12-15 per hour and is paid salary. He puts in avg. 60
hours per week. How do I figure? Simple: The line worker punches a
clock and doesn't do a damn thing unless he is on the clock. The
manager is present for 40 hours but always is working on "homework"
and training and job related social affairs etc. Therefore, many
times he makes less than the line worker when figured per hour.
In the animation and CGI business I, too, have found most clients
don't care to pay by the hour. They just want to know what their
charge is for X result. So, I just think the comparison of hourly
rates are totally irrelevant for this industry.
In a practical sense I have one type client that likes to experiment.
He usually has no idea what he wants in his animation. We have
agreed that I bill him at $15 per hour and I go on the clock for
every phone call, every meeting, every learning curve minute to
develop his ideas. Guys like him are rare in this industry. Mostly
I get the storyboard developed, a non billable couple of hours, have
several meetings and then finally go to work. Now I start to charge
hours into my estimate. Notice I said charge into an estimate. Most
time this client is trying to work an open ended bid (the worst kind
of bidding where after you submit a bid the client will take
competitor's bids and try to get everybody to further drop the
price). I loose a bunch of business at good rates because I refuse
to participate in open ended bidding.
The bottom line is the "Bottom Line" If after the year end you do a
comfortable living and are happy with your life style then you have
done well, If you make big big bucks per hour but only got 1 or 2
small jobs all year and spent the rest of the time perfecting your
skills and developing a demo reel you're probably on the verge of
going out of business. Likewise if you don't charge enough to meet
your commitments you will be working long hours with lots to do and
still won't make your nut.
As far as hard goods involved, I always mark up video for resale. If
I bought a video tape for $10 and sold it for $10 I'd be loosing
about 20% or $2. It takes about 20 % prorata to cover cost of
acquiring and maintaining and selling inventory. These are real
costs and not profit.
>>Here's the point: It doesn't matter what you say is the charge per
hour because so many hours never get billed. <<
We can all relate to that! I really do not want to know how many hours
I spend at this. Many times a project comes in and I must spend hours
learning a new procedure before I can even start. The learning curve
here is quite extensive at times.
You mentioned a client that you put on the clock everytime he called
or you turned on a machine for him. How do you keep track of this?
Must be tedious at best. An internal clock in 3DS to log hours
opened/accumulated on a project would be a handy feature, I believe
ACAD has this feature.
<< As far as hard goods involved, I always mark up video for
resale>>
I was refering to marking up a rendering/taping service such as yours.
I try to make my money from my own talents, and not marking up the
services of others. I suppose most people mark up everything that
goes through their hands, but it just doesn't feel right to me. Guess
I'll never make it in this business if I ever go full-time 🙂
P.S. Our client was blown away by our last job together! Nice work
Don.
One thing that is hard to do, but is worth the effort. Get a very
acurate record of the amount of time spent on EACH project. Then you
can always go back and review your time. You would be shocked to see
how much time was spent messing around with ideas.
I usually juggle 5-10 projects at once, putting a basic idea down
everytime one comes to mind. This would require quite a logging
procedure, and I would probably forget to do it in the "heat of the
idea". How do you manage your times?
You are right, active minds are hard to track….Remember the point of
the exercise is to simply gain an insight on how much time is
actually spent on different projects. More than once I have done
something for someone else and grabbed some of it for the ucrrent
project. I just basically write down the time spent. In the course of
the day I may work on 4-5 different projects. I simply keep a log of
time (00:00) begin and time end. I add up the hours later. Believe
me I sure don't use a stopwatch. You might also keep track of the
discussion time with clients. That adds up. I have been lucky to be
able to charge for that time too. Keeps the meeting shorter <g>.
I use a real low tech way of doing it. I just keep a log of
everything I do. He is in here daily and approves of it, making
changes, etc. I consider him more like a boss or supervisor than a
client. It works best for both of us this way. He still asks me to
make estimates on how much time an effect will take, however.
Good stuff Don. And right on. I charge $50 an hour, but sometimes I do
full quote that I know I will do allright on. Yeh we end up doing
alot of stuff for free sometimes. But I'm the boss, and my house is
paid for.
Hey Don…do you know where I can get some good storyboard software? I
have a client who wants to do the storyboard design and send me the
file. Then I do the ANI from that.
Storyboard Software?? I never found any that works for me. Usually,
customers get creative over lunch, drawing ideas on a napkin. I got
tired of food stain napkins in my file folders so I did a 16 window
page layout in Page maker and printed up a bunch. I carry these with
me and whip them out at the right moment. Everybody carries a pen so
we're all set. I would think sty bd software would just slow things
down at this stage.
If the client wants a real polished sty board I create a crude mesh in
3DS, render the key frames to tga files, paste them into the
preprinted form in Page Maker and print it with a BJC-800 in color.
Of course I charge for this service as a sty bd of this sort can take
some time to develop.
The deal is here is that this client is 800 miles away. I only see him
every two months or so. They have a lot of computer experience and
even use 3DS. I am the one who ties it together into an animated tape
show. They want to create the storyboard and send it to me along with
some of the meshes which they have done.
So far they have been happy letting me do the action. The problem is
the technology of their subject is a bit complex. They need to
describe it to me in detail.
Great insights, to be sure… I agree that it seems like a lot of
people don't bill their time correctly, and consequently have a
mistaken impression about how much they're "making."
At one consulting gig, I watched my peers accept full-time jobs at a
certain salary while I stayed a consultant. I worked half-time yet
made as much or more than most of them, benefits included. Meanwhile,
I could work on my own projects as well as using other consulting
jobs to leverage the wage they were paying to make even more money.
To be fair, I think I worked harder and more efficiently than the
salary workers, too. I think their brains were dulled and time
wasted by endless meaningless meetings that I by-and-large could
avoid. All in the name of "security," yet at lunchtime, we could all
agree that the writing was on the wall and that this branch of the
company could disappear in a matter of months.
As for judging hourly versus yearly salary, I always multiply by
2,000, the rough number of hours in a work-year. (40-hour 50-weeks.)
That is a good way of doing it.
For me, I multiply the number of verticies in the project by the average size
of all texture maps used. I take this result and multiply it by the image
resolution of the final project and then divide it by [(1E12) x (25 – # of ON
settings in ther renderer dialog)]. I take the natural log of this number and
then multiply it by 1K.
If I don't like that number, I just make an educated guess. 😉
— James — MAP —
>> For me, I multiply the number of verticies in the project by the
average size of all texture maps used. <<
ROFL. Good method. Sounds about as good as any in this voodoo science.
My astrologer makes all bids for me. Worked for Mr & Mrs Reagan <G>
Huh??? I never thought of that formula. I used to multiply the
temperature of noon times the hour that the sun comes up and divide
it by the number of times I fell asleep during the project. The math
got to hard, so I went back to $50 hr…Take it or leave it.
SW,
>> so I went back to $50 hr…Take it or leave it.<<
you're in Montana, right? The cost of living is much higher in SoCal,
I'd guess, so $100 hr is more appropriate here. Although few can
probably get that much.
> so I went back to $50 hr <
I have found that if the customer fully understands your pricing method, they
will never be happy with the price.
— James — MAP —
> Good method. <
Thanks. It took years to come up with the formula . . .
> My astrologer makes all bids for me. <
Is your astrologer also a shareholder?
— James — MAP —
James,
>> Is your astrologer also a shareholder? <<
absolutely not! I want impartial business predictions, untainted by the bias of
potential financial gain <G>.
>>I take the natural log of this number and then multiply it by 1K.
Good, James, I like that. I have an old tree stump in the back yard.
Do you think it'd work if I just sat there rather than contemplated
on a "natural log"?
> Do you think it'd work if I just sat there rather than contemplated on a
"natural log"? <
Yes. But I would recommend eating a pi while you do it.
— James — MAP —
Well, if I sat there long enough on the natural log I might think… "Ge om e
try"
Hey it's late and I should get some sleep!
<Ge om e try> Don, Thanks for putting a smile upon my face this morning.
> Gee-I'm-a-tree! <
<BG>
> Hey it's late and I should get some sleep! <
According to my info, you wrote that at 5:26am. That's not late — its early!
<G> Rather than go to bed, you should be getting a cup of coffee and doing a
few more test renders!
Its not time to go to sleep until you wake up to a rapid beeping sound with
your face in the keyboard and ten thousand letter Ls scolling up your CIM
navigator.
— James — MAP —
>>Its not time to go to sleep until you wake up to a rapid beeping sound with
your face in the keyboard and ten thousand letter….
Well….? That's what happened. <BG>
<<Its not time to go to sleep until you wake up to a rapid beeping sound with
your face in the keyboard and ten thousand letter Ls scolling up your CIM
navigator.>>
Yes, and when someone asks you about those key-shaped indentations in your
face, just say they're birthmarks, or perhaps the results of a hazing ceremony
for the Geeks of America fraternity. <g>
Michele
Thanks for putting a smile on my face this morning, Don.
You're warped. But it's a good warp. <g>
OK. Since it's coming from you, I'll consider that a compliment!! <G>
— James — MAP —
Meaningless meetings… Boy can I agree with that. Having spent over 20 years
in industry it sometimes amazed me we ever made any money. <BG>
The way big companies waste money… it always made crazy. I'd go
from running my business, where I'm watching every dollar, to company
X, where they're blowing 5-6 million a year on empty un-leasable
Silicon Valley office space, not to mention the endless squandering
purchases $1,000 here, $10,000 there, on literal toys to "keep
someone happy" or to let them "explore", or catered lunches and
dinners, off-site meetings, extended business trips, etc. and I
haven't even begun when it comes to employees who survive on smoke and
mirrors, who spend the entire day goofing off, who arrive late and
leave early, who claim to "be working at home," etc. and then there's
the managers who can't recognize any of this…
Give me my own business, any day. It's tougher, but more honest.
>> Our competitor did the same job on an Amiga for $10,000, but they
squeaked it out in 4 days. We wanted 2 weeks to complete it, which is
why we didn't get the job. <<
I am curious to know if you got to see the quality of the Amiga
output. Was it better than what could have been done in two weeks
with 3D Studio in your opinion? I am curious to know because if a
client will pay that much more for a quicker turn around rather than
quality, then maybe there is a way to speed up 3DS, losing a little
quality, yet getting a job because you beat the competitor in
turnaround time. I am not too familiar with Amiga's software
(Lightwave?), but what I have seen I have not been very impressed
with. Thanks for replying.
>> I am curious to know if you got to see the quality of the Amiga
output. Was it better than what could have been done in two weeks
with 3D Studio in your opinion?<<
We did see the animation. Actually it was a series of stills, with
several 10 sec. animated parts to it. Quality was poor, and almost no
color. When the client saw our 3DS Demo work, he was blown away by
the quality. We were not willing to compromise our work to fit in his
time schedule.
>> When the client saw our 3DS Demo work, he was blown away by the
quality. We were not willing to compromise our work to fit in his
time schedule. <<
Hooray! I too have had similar experiences. A client was
unwilling to shell out the $ (an extremely low bid) that I asked for
a job. They found someone else to do it for less, and it sucked. Now
they are trying to sell their product with this crummy animation.
Everyone hates the quality. We've just entered a contract where I'm
getting roughly twice my original bid (I'm more "established" now),
and they have to use previews of my stuff to show customers ("uh,
this is what the new piece will look like…").
Theoretically I could have done a cheesy piece for them, but I,
like you, take pride in my work. In bigger markets it might do 3DS
and 3DSers harm if clients see 3DS output that looks shoddy. I
really sell 3DS as well as my services. My awe of the program comes
across.
Oh, yes, that poor quality had nothing to do with the talents of the
animator. It's a deficiency of the Amiga chipset and multitasking
architecture. It prevents RGB values from looking quite "right."
Yup, once a C program tries to pass an RGB file out to the screen or
to a file or to a PAR, the Amiga screws it up. 🙂
James:
>> suggestions as to an hourly rate to charge a client.
Much depends on whether you are working out of your house or have a
full office to support. Does the client care if you have full
liability insurance and people to cover if you get sick so as not to
miss a deadline? If so, they are usually prepared to pay more. Also,
minor things like experience, previous projects completed, etc. add a
lot to your ability to get more money for your animation work.
Another factor is the part of the world you are in, and the
competition in the local area.
Good luck!
Greg Pyros
>> Much depends on whether you are working out of your house or have a full
office to support. <<
Fortunately I have no overhead now, just me and my partner, but I am
concerned with getting the idea across to the client that they may be
paying more for better quality rather than going to a competitor
because of quicker turn-around. I have only 7 years experience with
computer animation, but I feel that charging more for that experience
is, if not desired, expected. I guess it is up to the client to
decide that one 🙂
>> I have only 7 years experience with computer animation…
That's practically a veteran in this industry. What platforms did you
work with prior to 3DS?
>> What platforms did you work with prior to 3DS? <<
I started on a software known as Cubicomp (I believe they are now
called something else) in a class I took specializing in computer
graphics and design. That was one serious headache, but a great
learning tool. I then went on to work for a company that had a
Cubicomp setup, and burned up two boards somehow (I think I asked it
for too much :)) <– wow, how do you do a smiley inside a
parenthesis? Anyway, an opportunity arose for a nicer setup soon
after, we gained access to an SGI Crimson with 128 meg Ram and
started trying software out. I worked with Wavefront for about a
year, then we tried SoftImage for about another year. I've been
using 3D Studio for a few years on a system at home. But I have to
give most of my learning credit to the Cubicomp (I believe
"Picturemaker" now) as well as giving it credit for my initial fear of
getting into this industry to start with.
🙂
>> I have only 7 years experience with computer animation..
That's nothing to sneeze at there.. It sure beats my 8 mo. or so..
>>Charge per hour
Well, here we list $75 per man hour, and $50 per rendering hour, but
that was established before I got there. I rarely can go by that
rate. Usually it's only little, non 3DS jobs that I go by that..
With my experience, and the needs of the video house I work for
(contract), I'm only doing relatively simple stuff.
The clients I've worked with have been interested in a flat sum, and
that's ok by me (in most cases). I think it's pretty hard to
guestimate the number of hours for a job, at least for me and this
equipment. I usually estimate by complexity, diffuculty for me to
make it, demands on the machine (raytraced shadows, transp, etc.),
look, and use for the client. I won't go low if I know they will use
it a lot.
Most of my projects are from nice, but simple logo treatments to my
most recent particle based animation. And it's taken me a couple
weeks, on average, to get them done. They usually range between
$1000 to $2000 in cost. I'd say about $20 per hour is about the
average I get. Which isn't bad for my needs, and the area. (Central
KY) I really don't have to worry about competition, since I rarely
work on something not related to what is being done in production. I
get all their work. I'm busy enough as it is.. mabe later I'll look
for more work.
Hi James, Here's my 2 cents worth:
We are based in the southeast (Alabama) in between several large
metropolitan areas. In order to compete with the companies located
in the large cities, and to make this kind of work available to all
the folks not in the big cities (and used to paying big city prices)
we base our estimates on $30-$40 per hour. The client never sees
that number though, for I agree with Don Landis:
>>
In the animation and CGI business I, too, have found most clients don't care to
pay by the hour. They just want to know what their charge is for X result.
So, I just think the comparison of hourly rates are totally irrelevant for this
industry.
>>
It is only used for our estimating purposes, because it is still
easier for our brains to calculate based on estimated time. We first
discuss the project in depth with the client, so we can come up with
a reasonably accurate time estimate. That number we multiply by our
"hourly rate", then add a percentage markup to cover unforseen
expenses or time, usually about 25%-50%, depending upon the
impression we got from the client (if they knew exactly what they
wanted and were familiar with this kind of work before, there probably
wouldn't be much of a markup, if any. But, if they were themselves
uncertain as to what they really wanted, the markup would naturally
go up a little). Then, the final bottom-line number is what we
propose to the client for "X" results.
Animation has been sort of a hard sell down here in the south, where
if it ain't got nothin' to do with a truck or huntin', it ain't worth
the time<g>(I'm a born and bred red-neck, so's I can make fun of
us). So I also agree with the idea that where you are also
determines, to a certain extent, what you charge and what the local
market will accept. So far, in the last two years, we have only had
one proposal to a serious client turned down (needless to say, I'm
not counting the yo-yo's who only want us to do up-front work and
then use our proposal to get someone else's price down, but we're
getting better weeding them out).
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth (or, looking back, it looks like about
a dime's worth<g>), hope it helps, and give 'em heck!!