#PageStream Follies
67 messages in this thread
Soft-Logik corporation takes the prize for having more guts than any
other Amiga publisher for PageStream 2.1. This software is NON-functional.
They are not first, and probably won't be the last to write non-functioning
code and steal the hard earned money of Amiga owners in the process-but the
real icing on the cake is that the free demo version of program actually
works. It's rock solid and crash proof (though slow). The $200 release
version (2.1) is buggy, quirky, and crash prone-not to mention the little
fact that it can't print anything you get lucky enough to make with it. In
the last 7 or so hours I've been trying to use PageStream it has crashed
the computer no less than 12 times. It has never printed an entire page. I
have two pages in front of me that are completely blank (PageStream says
they are printed), I have 5 or 6 others on which less than 20 percent of
the page is printed-funny, it stopped printing right around the time of
that now, ever so familiar, red flashing box informing that the software
crashed the computer-and here I thought I'd given it the print command, not
the crash command. Contrast this with the demo version, which printed out a
5 page document for me without trouble-twice.
What clearly happened is the people at Soft-Logik released this
software without testing. This is negligence and utter stupidity on their
part-however it does seem to be standard operating procedure of Amiga
software publishers. The laws should be re-written, so that businesses
that behave in this way are put out of business fast, their assets stripped
and given to their victims, and the operators put in jail. I have no
sympathy for people who steal from me, I just don't understand them-I work
for a living.
Barry,
I'm not an employee of Soft-Logik, but I must come forth to
disqualify your comments regarding PageStream 2.1. Granted the program has
a few odd quirks, but I have yet to come across any of the ones that you
mention. And just for the record, I use PageStream to do professional work!
Are you printing to Postscript? If so, log onto Soft-Logik's BBS
and get the most recent version of the Postscript driver; the one that
comes with 2.1 is buggy and won't print most of the Adobe Type 1 fonts. It
gave me some frustration in my first month of ownership, but luckily they
fixed it quickly.
I'll agree that PageStream has much room for improvement, but it is
heads and tails above ProPage. Case in point: how long did it take ProPage
to be able to rotate type and graphics? How long WILL it be before you can
edit ProDraw clips inside ProPage? How long has it taken Gold Disk to work
the offset printing bug out of laser and deskjet printing? Or to do
landscape in any mode but Postscript?
These and many other points are the reasons I defected to
PageStream, and I certainly don't feel cheated. I someday hope for better
screen display of graphics and some sort of dithered coloring scheme like
ProPage, but until then, I'll forward my comments to Soft-Logik and hope
for the best. They DO listen.
J.R.
J.R.;
One question, please give me your system configuration. I have a
feeling that most lock ups and Gurus I've encountered have been the result
of the system running out of memory (though it has Gurued twice when
selecting between the text and pointer boxes). I've taken to watching the
sytem memory fall from around 212000 bytes before a print command is issued
to 17300 after the print command-then a flashing red box.
As for all your questions, beats me. All I can tell you is that none
of the above can be done on PageStream the way it's (not) working now.
Barry
I use PageStream 2.1 on an Amiga 2000 with 5 megs of RAM (including
1 meg of chip RAM), a Supra Wordsync SCSI controller w/40 meg hard drive,
ICD's AdSpeed accellerator and a multisync monitor with ICD's Flicker Free
Video. I have about 5 megs of fonts on my hard drive. I use a HP LaserJet
IIP with Pacific Page Postscript cartridge and 3.5 megs of memory in the
printer.
Hope this helps. What printer are you going to?
J.R.
J.R.,
The printer I'm going to is a Panasonic 1124i. Oh, just to mention-I
installed a 2 meg expansion on my 500 (3 megs total) the other day and
guess what-it hasn't crashed since. Makes you wonder.
Barry
Barry, I've taken J.R.'s Pagestream 2.1 files and have color separated them
to film on a hi-res phototypesetter, using my A2000 which has 10MB (2MB
chip ram, 4MB 32bit ram & 4MB of 16bit) of ram and an '030 – '882. I've
seen the final prints of these color seps and they look excellent. They did
take over 30+ minutes each to print, but hey, J.R. is a heavy graphics man.
Pgstream works fine for me, I'd like to see improvements too, but that is
always expected of everything. If you don't have a postscript printer, I'd
recommend downloading Post1.6 from here. It will interpret Postscript ASCII
files, and it does a nice job for me, printing to a non-postscript 300dpi
GCC Personal Laser Printer. Of course you'll need to begin collecting the
postscript fonts, many of them found here in the libraries.
I wish you better luck, and please, post your system configuration. But
just from one of your comments about memory dropping I'd guess its time you
seriously considered a megamemory upgrade.
Chris
Chris,
I'm using a 500 with 1 meg-now expanded to 3 megs. Without the extra
memory on, PageStream goes crash happy and can't be used for any kind of
work. It won't print and crashes every 5 to 20 minutes ("crash" includes
Guru's, and "lockouts", where all the gadgets and pulldown menus remain
active-but have no effect). (With 3 megs, very few problems) If Soft Logik
wants to print "1 megabyte required" on the outside of the Pagestream box,
they should include a 2 meg expansion inside.
Barry
Barry;
I almost hate to find myself so solidly in Ben court after the last few
exchanges on WP but…….. 🙂
There is clearly some more significant than PGS's software amiss here. I
use PGS extensively and it is responsible for the majority of my income.
There are bugs and quirks in PGS that almost drive me to drink. There are
a few ways that one can pretty consistantly crash the program (or at least
lock it up) but what you are describing is way outside that area. I could
almost agree with you, and at times did agree, when using PGS 1.6, but 2.1
is relatively stable.
My first thoughts are that there is something wrong with your driver
installation. PGS is overly sensitive to font and driver installtion
errors. The program seems to have little or no error checking routines for
such mistakes. Add to that, the fact that the manual is about as clear as
hieroglyphics and …
BTW, I certainly have thought "there oughta be a law" several times. When
I think of having a government group 'approving' software for my
consumptions however, the thought quickly disappears!
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Bill;
Do me a favor, describe your system set up to me. I have a feeling
that just about all my problems have to do with the system running out of
ram.
As for, "there oughta be a law". I _never_ suggested the government
pre-approve software. I suggested that people that do business in a way
that is nothing more than a way of putting money in their pockets, without
providing anything in return, should be put out of business-since they are
not really in business at all, but crime disguised as business. As far as
I'm concerned, pages of disclaimers in fine print should not save any
criminal organization. If someone sells computer software, they must be
responsible to see that it works-period.
My guess (and it's only a _GUESS_) is that Soft-Logik programmers
developed a program that really _needs_ 2+ megabytes, but when the
marketing department saw if they balked, realizing that 90% of the Amigas
are 1 meg 500s. They asked the developers if any window would open with 1
meg, and when they said yeah, the main window will open, but you can't
really use the program. the marketers said, "thank you", everyone just shut
up, and they started pushing a program that would "operate" on a 1 meg
Amigaas printed on the outside of the box, and in the manual. _If_ that is
what happened, then Soft-Logik really is a bunch of thieves and they should
be put out of business.
Barry;
I think that we probably agree closely enough on the problem but we likely
will always disagree on the solution 🙂 I am not too comfortable with
having 'uncle' solving any problems… particularly any that might involve
opinions.
The smallest Amiga system that I have run any version of PGS on is a 3 Meg
system. The smallest system that I have run the current version of PGS on
is 5 Meg. Other than the 3 Meg operation mentioned above, I doubt that I
have ever had less than 2 Meg free space. Even with a 5 Meg file loaded I
have still had over 2 Meg free (BTW, I definately do not recommend
attempting to manage such a large file in one chunk).
I suspect that the program is 'useable' in a 1 Meg machine. However, with
something like DTP, the term 'useable' is subject to wide variations in
interpretation. Is the program 'useable' even if you can't load my 5 Meg
document? I think that most reasonable people would agree that a 5 Meg
file is a pretty extreme test standard. How about 1 Meg files? Should
three fonts be considered the minimum limit of useability, 10?
I am afraid that most of the considerations for minimum memory requirements
are primarily due to the nature of the activity and the machine. All DTP
packages need lots of memory even though they 'will run' on small machines.
Now I will definately agree that Soft-Logic does not exactly use the most
elegant methods of letting the user know that there is insufficient memory!
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Bill,
If you have some type of Utopian system to see that software makers
don't rip us off, I'm all ears.
As for what composes useable, I'd say being able to operate for at
least 20 minutes without a crash is _Minimum_ for what I would define as
useable. I think for desktop publishing, you'd have to define useable as
going beyond what a word processor can do, and still not crashing for that
20 minutes at a time (while getting output as nice as the DOS PRT:). Please
remember, 2.1 was crashing on me when I was loading old two paragraph
documents (half page, no graphics, 2 fonts) and trying to print them. A
couple of days ago I plugged in a 2 meg memory expansion and it's like
using a different program. I haven't had a crash or lock out-unless I
reboot after turning off the expansion RAM: So I can safely say that Page
Stream 2.1 works well on a 1 meg machine-as long as it has 3 megs 🙂
What really bugs me is the attitude of the SL Tech Support. It seems
to be, "oh yeah, we knew it wouldn't work when we sold it to you, we'll fix
it in the next version, but you have to wait until we get around to it."
Barry
Barry;
Its a rough world out there (and of course, I realize you know that).
Sounds like part of your problem may in fact be the 'old files.' I have
several PGS 1.8 files that will crash PGS 2.1 on my A3000 and it has 18
Meg.
I think that SL support has improved a little — not much understand but a
little (of course they had and have a lot of room for improvement). Also,
I have had my best luck when writing letters to them rather than attempting
to work over the telephone. I'm not sure that isn't even quicker than the
phone! If you do send them letters, leave lots of room as they like to
write directly on your letter and return it to you.
For operating style, I would say that WP's customer support is the very
best that there is. Technically they are pretty good also. The very best
technical support would likely be a toss up between BlackBelt and Right
Answers Group. It is no accident that Brad Schnek and others put "for
support above and beyond the call of duty -> Keith Doyle" and of course Ben
Williams is very well known to us here.
I wish I knew some answers to the software quality problem. There were
times while trying to use PGS 1.6/1.8 that I probably could have easily
committed assault if only I could have gotten my hands on someone
responsible for the software — thus, I believe that I really do understand
your feelings in this matter.
-bill/ARS KB7LX
Note that AdPro from ASDG says it will "work" with 3 meg of ram, but the
fact is, that trullu useful work require considerably more than the
minimum, as do many programs.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Barry
While I have many criticisms of PageStream, I could never say that the
software is non-functional. I use it (v2.1) frequently to produce all sorts
of things … from the core artwork for record sleeves (which I then import
into Professional Page), to posters. DTP isn't my profession … but I sure
do a great deal.
The problems you describe sound as though they are related to your own set
up, or what you are trying to do with PageStream.
For instance, are you trying to do too much with your available memory? PS
does require quite a lot, especially when you a doing complex (multi-font)
documents.
Are you using PD fonts? Some do cause PS to have problems (partly due to PS
problems, partly due to bugs in the fonts which PS does not handle very
well).
Perhaps, if we work through this carefully, we can find out what the
problem is.
Mmm … I never thought I'd see the day I was defending PageStream 🙂
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
Mike,
Right now I'm down to really basic tests. Importing very short
documents from WP and seeing if they'll print using a single supplied font.
I actually did get it to print a short, half page, letter at low density
(printing to disk, not printer) using the CS Times font-of course, that is
not a DTP, I can get better output using Word Perfect printer drivers.
After watching the amount of available RAM while doing different
things, there seems to hover around 200,000 available with small
documents-which is all I want to do. When I hit the print command is drops
to less than 20,000, then crashes. It has also crashed and locked when
clicking between the text and pointer boxes.
Barry
I'll add my two centavos here too.
Barry, you obviously have something configured wrong or something with your
setup is just not right. PS does have some problems but don't you think
all those problems you are encountering could be for a reason? Soft-Logik
is not out to steal your money.
Maybe if you describe your setup and exactly what you are doing when you
get the gurus some of us can help you. Also, isn't Soft-Logik represented
here? Believe me, PageStream is a good program and it works great for me
and plenty of others. Let's work on getting yours going.
>>DonovaN
Good reply Donovan. I agree, help him get going, if he's even willing to
try.
But I also think he has a good point. Why is it crashing at all? Even if
he should have his Stack set higher, or different Assigns, or needs to
reinstall his Fonts, or .EQV files, or whatever….. if the program has a
problem, it should just tell him what's wrong, and gracefully exit. NOT
CraSH.
It's good that Barry has folks here on CIS to help him get going. I wonder
how many other folks out there are bitching in private cause PgS is
crashing, or better yet, returning the program or bitching about their
computer always crashing? After all, their Mac friends never have these
problems. (or aren't perceived to, anyway)
I agree that PgS is not out to steal anyone's money. I think Barry must
have some real installation or configuration problems. But PgS hasn't
helped anything by having it's program crash when things aren't exactly
right.
By the way, I'm not picking on PgS. They are no better/worse than many
other Amiga/Mac/IBM programs. Maybe that's the problem. Complicated
software that demands complicated setup and such. OK, help us set it up,
but DON'T CRASH. I'll shut up 🙂
–jp–seattle–
John,
You're kidding me, right? An Amiga program that should bow out
gracefully, _and_ tell the user _exactly_ why it's bowing out and what is
required to make it work! It's so much more fun to crash the computer, and
with the Amiga, you not only destroy the data in the program, but in any
other program that happens to be running at the same time-that doubles the
fun doesn't it.
Let's see, my old CPM computer, as long as I used it, _never_ crashed
running a commercial program. My friend with a Mac Plus, has never
complained of a crash, and said he would consider getting an Amiga, but is
constantly hearing about crashes. He has had trouble with his NEXT being
fairly crash happy, though.
Barry
Thank you for your honest comments. We don't like to get into arguments of
this sort online. We're here to help, not to argue. Our software is
thoroughly tested by dozens of people who do not work for Soft-Logik. These
are real users. Each version has a multitude of bug fixes. Version 2.1 is
the most stable version of PageStream to date. The demo version you say is
so stable is always identical to the release version except for the Save
}icommand I believe.
}iIf you are having problems with printing, why don't you post your
problems or call us and we will help you overcome them. There is obviously
a problem somewhere and we would like to help. If you need immediate help,
call our technical support line (the number is inside the cover of the
manual on the back of the title page. We also have a BBS dedicated to
customer support.
}iAnd, by the way, we are not in this for the money. We truly love
publishing }iIf you knew the effort that goes into creating a program such
as PageStream, then you would know that it can't be for the money.
Memory: PageStream 2.1 has a real problem with 1 meg machines. Not because
memory is tight (which it is) but because it doesn't stop you from crashing
before it crashes. This is a known problem and will be fixed in 2.2. PgS
should not crash when you run out of memory. Sorry, but we can't fix it in
2.1, you'll have to wait for 2.2 which is a free upgrade and which will be
mailed AS SOON AS IT IS THOROUGHLY TESTED.
No, we didn't set out to write a 2 meg program and then sneekily marketed
it as a 1 meg program. PgS used to required 512K and has grown as users
demanded more features. We are trying to keep it down to running in 1 meg,
and we will continue to improve its modularity in the future to save you
even more memory.
On memory: the memory requester gives you two figures. The system free
space tells you how much memory you have left. The largest block limits the
size of a graphic which you can import. Say you have two megs of system
space ~r}ileft, but only a 1 meg free block size. Then you try to import a
400K
The line noise has been very bad tonite. I had to log off and come back on.
I'm not sure what I managed to get posted, so here it comes again (in
edited offline form 🙂
Thank you for your honest comments. We don't like to get into arguments of
this sort online. We're here to help, not to argue. Our software is
thoroughly tested by dozens of people who do not work for Soft-Logik. These
are real users. Each version has a multitude of bug fixes. Version 2.1 is
the most stable version of PageStream to date. The demo version you say is
so stable is always identical to the release version except for the Save
command.
If you are having problems with printing, why don't you post your problems
or call us and we will help you overcome them. There is obviously a problem
somewhere and we would like to help. If you need immediate help, call our
technical support line (the number is inside the cover of the manual on the
back of the title page. We also have a BBS dedicated to customer support.
And, by the way, we are not in this for the money. We truly love publishing
If you knew the effort that goes into creating a program such as
PageStream, then you would know that it can't be for the money.
Memory: PageStream 2.1 has a real problem with 1 meg machines. Not because
memory is tight (which it is) but because it doesn't stop you from crashing
before it crashes. This is a known problem and will be fixed in 2.2. PgS
should not crash when you run out of memory. Sorry, but we can't fix it in
2.1, you'll have to wait for 2.2 which is a free upgrade and which will be
mailed AS SOON AS IT IS THOROUGHLY TESTED.
No, we didn't set out to write a 2 meg program and then sneekily marketed
it as a 1 meg program. PgS used to required 512K and has grown as users
demanded more features. We are trying to keep it down to running in 1 meg,
and we will continue to improve its modularity in the future to save you
even more memory.
cont…
SL Tech
On memory: the memory requester gives you two figures. The system free
space tells you how much memory you have left. The largest block limits the
size of a graphic which you can import. Say you have two megs of system
space left, but only a 1 meg free block size. Then you try to import a 400K
file which expands to 1.5 megs when uncompressed. This will not import
(you'll get an out of memory error.) So, it's the system space which you
should normally be concerned with. You don't have a lot free when using PgS
on a 1 meg machine. That is why the manual recommends additional memory.
(The 2.2 slipcover will even say 2 megs recommended.)
Now when you are printing, memory is very important. PgS will attempt to
create the page in one pass if there is sufficent memory to hold the entire
page. It creates as much as it can and then sends it to the printer to
flush memory. This is why you'll get create, printing, create, printing.
PgS creates a band of data, sends it, then creates the next band. Now PgS
needs to recreate the first band to see where to pick up, so the second
band takes twice as long, the third 3 times as long, and so on. The more
memory, the less passes PgS will have to make. If you only have 100K free
when printing, PgS will take forever to print. If you have 25K free, you'll
have to make the document smaller.
So how do you get memory back? One way, is to ensure that the copy buffer
is empty. You know, that black hole where text and graphics are stored for
pasting. How do you do this? Highlight one letter and select copy. This
will copy the one letter to the buffer, emptying that 100K picture you
imported. 🙂 (2.2 will have a quickie way to empty the buffer. Now check
the system memory and see how much you have left. Other things you can do
are to disable all those nifty programs you have running in the background.
That 80K screen blanker. I guess you could close down the workbench (I've
never done this but I guess it's possible. I can never quit the workbench,
I always have those huge background things running! 🙂
cont…
SL Tech
Soft Logik,
Let's see if I've got this straight. From your messages you say that
Soft Logik.
1). Designed PageStream to work on a 1 meg machine, and it wasn't a
marketing decision to call it a 1 meg program.
2). You know there are problems with V. 2.1 on megabyte machines but you
can't fix it.
3) "THOROUGHLY TEST" upgrades before they are released.
I can believe any ONE of those things-BUT all three, no. They are mutually
exclusive. Either 2.1 wasn't "THOROUGHLY TESTED" before release, or it
wasn't designed for a 1 meg machine. I've just expanded my machine to 3
megs and have had very few problems. It's offensive to be sold software
there won't work on machine the publisher says it will work on. I've gone
through a stack of Amiga World magazines and seen not a single
advertisement with a disclaimer warning people that Page Stream really
doesn't work on a 1 meg machine. Put yourself in my position, does it look
like Soft Logik has been honest with it's customers? Does it look like Soft
Logik has been INTENTIONALLY deceptive about the requirements for Page
Stream and was knowingly selling a "Snake Oil" program?
Barry
Barry,
Calm down. You're really way off base. The Program _does_ "work" on a 1 meg
machine. It does _not_ work the way that you or anyone else expects it to
work. You are technically right on that point and SL is technically right
to say that the program will "run" on a 1 meg machine.
The real point here is that _no_ program of _any_ consequence will run on a
1 meg machine. That's all there is to it. The fact that SL shoe-horned Pgs
into a 1 meg machine is remarkable. The fact that it cannot do all the
things that it needs to do in that environment is really a problem with the
laws of physics. The program simply needs to handle more data than it can
in the small memory environment.
If you want to use a program as large and sophisticated as Pgs, you _must_
understand and accept the fact that more memory is required. You should
have known that before you bought the program. You really should have
approached it (purchasing the program) with an attitude of, "Well if they
say it will run in 1 meg, ok . . . but I know that manipulation of that
kind of information is just going to _have_ to require more memory." If you
didn't understand the needs of the environment before, well, shame on you.
You now know better. And now that ram is down to 50 bucks a megabyte, there
is just no justification in saying that you are forced to pay an inordinate
amount to configure your system the way it needs to be.
I have ten megabytes in my 3000. SL says that Pgs will handle bit mapped
files and EPS files. It will, but the files I now need to handle require
that I upgrade to at least 16 megs. Is that SL's fault? Hell no.
Pgs is anything but snake oil. The novice user on buying such a program,
and finding that his or her needs have been expanded as the result of the
purchase has _not_ been deceived, rather educated.
Now that you have 3 megs in your machine, you will find that almost
everything runs better. A warning though! Now that you have the ability to
run bigger programs, you will soon find that 3 megs is much too small!
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
Enjoy the upgraded memory. I hope you begin to like Pgs.
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
Barry: PageStream was designed to work on a 512K machine, back in the old
days. Version 1.8, I think, was the first we said would only run with a min
of 1 meg. It still runs in 1 meg. There is room left to create useful
documents. On some 1 meg systems, PgS has system problems with memory
usage. This did not come up during testing because none of our systems, or
those of our beta-testers, exhibited this problem. It's not as easy as you
think. For example, we have had serious problems with the Atari SLM804
printer driver for the ST version. Turns out, the combination of UK o/s
roms with SLM printers would not print with our driver. Some machines have
different timing mechanisms. Another wierd problem was IMG import on
Amiga's. Some users blasted us because IMG files always crashed on their
Amiga oops, on their Amiga's. We took forever to track that down. Turned
out they all used a certain hard drive controller which didn't play by the
rules, and its problem only cropped up during our IMG import. Go figure
that. So it's not as easy as you think, just pick up an Amiga 500 with 1
meg and test. There are so many version of every motherboard, that we can
never test everything to make sure it's 100% perfect or we would never be
able to release it. We test it as much as is possible. I mean it's
thoroughly tested. I sit here trying to crash PgS for hours on end. I have
one bug I've been chasing for a year (still haven't got it!) All the
betatesters report back to each other constantly exchanging info. It's a
serious process. So don't say we don't test. We test more than most
companies. But this isn't a word processor. This is one of the most
complicated programs available for the Amiga. Few other programs are as
complex.
I didn't say we couldn't fix the 1 meg problem. We have fixed it in-house
and will distribute the fix FREE to all users with 2.2. Think about it. 2.2
is FREE. You'll get it in the mail without having to pay any small fee. We
send them to thousands and thousands of users worldwide automatically. We
believe in strong customer support, and we are constantly upgrading our
software.
I would agree with much of what you say, and I'm sure your beta testers do
a good job … but the psychology of beta testing is a complex one, and you
should make sure that your beta-testers are not too closely involved with
the product. Also, most beta-testers get "tired" with a product after a
while, eventually only finding major bugs and lulling software houses into
a false sense of security.
With due respect, someone working for S-L, or who is intimately involved
with a product, as you are, does not make a good tester. You will almost
certainly be doing things "correctly", have the right configuration and
will press all the keys in more or less the right order. You might know
some of the likely pitfalls in the program, and spend time exercising them,
but you are unlikely to find the bugs that will hit the novice user.
I have been beta-testing major products now for many years … over the
past year, it accounts for much of what I do with my Amiga. I am currently
testing 4 major software releases … 2 now released, 2 to come … and I
periodically rest from the products so that I don't get to know them too
well. When I go back, I'm really disappointed if I discover less than a
dozen bugs!
Certainly, trying to test on every possible combination of h/w is well-nigh
impossible (and for that reason, I assume you choose your beta-testers
carefully) and, even once a bug has been found, debugging is also very
tricky.
The only bugs I report on commercial software are those which are causing
me grief (like the fact that PageStream crashes when using some perfectly
legal Type-1 fonts … it falls over with some "seac" commands in these
Type-1 fonts … I've reported this to S-L before, but they seem to have
taken no notice … as you know I've reported it again … I hope S-L takes
its beta-testers more seriously).
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
I'm not a betatester anymore Mike, although I started off as one. I stopped
due to lack of time, and as you say, I know the program too well now. I
don't ~rknow why everybody assumes we don't do testing. We do. We take
novice users and plug them in front of our software, taping reactions to
tools and interface methods. We just don't decide one day that Shift drag
would be a good way to draw bezier curves. There's a real process behind
it.
ML SL Tech
cont…
We did not intentionally ship it with a 1 meg bug. In fact, I didn't know
about it until a month or so ago. How could we be expected to ship it with
a disclaimer "doesn't really work with 1 meg" if we didn't know. It worked
fine on our machines and those of our testers. And yes, we have every Amiga
model in-house. We have testers who do everything on the Amiga, including a
CBM employee, and a Gold Disk betatester I think. The program is banged on.
I'm sorry you had problems with 1 meg, but for every user who has an
experience like yours, there are thousands who don't have problems. If you
had called us for help first, instead of slamming us, we could have told
you what the problem was right away.
We are a good company with excellent support. For example, we will write a
printer driver for your printer if we don't have one already. No other
company offers this support. We offer a BBS, free maintenance upgrades, a
newsletter, free modules, etc…
SL Tech
>>I've taken to watching the sytem memory fall from around 212000 bytes
>>before a print command is issued to 17300 after the print command-then
>>a flashing red box.
As mentioned, this is an example of the problem PgS has with 1 meg systems.
(It's not a memory problem. If a 2 meg user runs out of memory PgS will not
crash. It's just 1 meg for some reason which is over my head. Fixed in
2.2.)
Bill: what driver/font installation problems are you having? The program
does have pretty good error checking for this sort of thing. If the font
isn't where you say it is, PgS will use a generic font until you tell the
program where it is. Simple. Drivers: put in the drivers drawer. Set with
Set/Save Paths. What could be simpler? What part of the manual is unclear?
I assume you are using the 2.1 manual, not the 1.8/2.0 manual which is very
out-of-date.
No, no, please, no gov't involvement. 🙂 2.2 would be releasd in 1996 if
they were involved!
Barry: You say "If someone sells computer software, they must be
responsible to see that it works-period." But have you asked us for help
before finding us guilty? Did you call our technical support line or our
BBS? (We don't log on to CIS and GEnie everyday, but the BBS is checked
pretty well every work day and the phones are answered every work day. We
are there to make sure you get what you need out of PageStream. But you
have to at least ask for help before saying we produce crap.
Mike T: what are you doing on our side? 🙂
Stack size: don't change it. PgS doesn't need a different stack size. You
don't need assigns with PgS either. They cause too many problems for
beginners so we don't use them. (BTW, if you set your paths for, say
drivers to "Drivers", PgS will look inside the directory from which PgS was
run. You don't have to say "work:PageStream2/Drivers". Yes, it's good Barry
has folks on CIS to help him. Offline users have tech support by phone. If
they don't phone, we can't help them. Problems which aren't reported can't
be fixed.
SL Tech
Soft Logik,
In response to message 38709, I never said that you, "produce a bunch
of crap", I said that Page Stream 2.1 is non-functional on a 1 meg Amiga,
furthermore, I said that it was rock solid in it's demo version (V. 1.82).
As for calling you tech support line or BBS, yeah, they could have told me
V. 2.1 doesn't work on a 1 meg machine, but I already knew that 🙂 The
point is I should have known that _before_ I bought the program. You could
have put a demo of 2.1 in the library, you could put a "Readme" file with
the library saying, "Look, don't try to use 2.1 on a 1 meg Amiga, we can't
fix it now but we'll try for V. 2.2). Of course you didn't do those
things-you stayed _very_ quite. You may have had your reasons for hiding
the problem, and those reasons may or may not be valid. However, now that I
know your business practices, I can honestly say that it is unlikely I will
ever purchase anything published by Soft Logik again-even though Page
Stream 2.1 works very well (so far) on my newly expanded 3 meg Amiga.
Barry
Ah, our 1.82 demo. We have a 2.1 demo online somewhere. Maybe it didn't
make it on here. They are two very different programs. Completely
rewritten. There were hundreds and hundreds of bug fixes between 1.8 and
2.1, so you can't compare them. There was 2.0 in between as well.
Just read the next part of your message. If there is no demo of 2.1 online
here it's because we didn't have a CIS sysop for sometime. I just took over
here. We will be offering official support soon in our new Amigavendor
area. (Yes, it's finally coming…) I won't bother uploading a new demo
until 2.2. That is one everybody will have to download to see. 2.2 is,
well, it's beautiful.
Give us a break. We haven't stayed quiet about bugs. If someone asks us, by
phone or online, we'll tell them about any known bugs they need to know.
I'm glad to hear that you have PageStream working great now with 3 megs.
That's the way things are supposed to work. Once again, I'm sorry you had a
bad experience.
ML SL Tech Support
..if the program has a problem, it should just tell him what's wrong, and
gracefully exit. NOT CraSH. …
John,
What programs do that? I've had Macintosh programs just QUIT for no
obvious reason and all the MAC does is say
Pagemaker4.0 has unexpectedly quit
"Yeah right, no kidding, I can see that you stupid OS, is that all you can
tell me?" And if I weren't at the machine when it did it all I'd see is a
blank desktop when I got back, and there is no menu item that lets you see
the last error message in the MAC OS. I've also had MACs crash and lockup
on me, but hey, I can cripple a computer by just walking into the room.
no metal plate in my head,
Chris
Chris,
-> What programs do that?
ProPage! I see "Not enough memory for selected operation." |Resume| more
times than I care to remember. And if you try to run it with too little
free, you get an error message.
I've also had Whap! exit with "Can't open any more windows!"
Malcolm
Donovan,
I think that every problem I've encountered has been for a
reason-don't you? The hardware hasn't changed since I ran the PageStream
Demo, which as I said, was slow, but did everything I needed it to do, and
_never_ crashed. I'm using the software as it came out of the box, from
floppies, on a stock 1 meg A500 with two drives. I've looked in the trouble
shooting section of the docs, but there is no section that says, "crashes
every 15 minutes". What do you think is wrong with the way I've configured
things?
As I've told others, my guess is that PageStream 2.1 is so top heavy
with code, that the "requires 1 meg" on all the documentation is just a
joke-and a very bad one.
Barry
I think you hit it right on the nose Barry. I still think they should
change that to requires at least 2 megs of memory. You really can't do too
much on a one meg machine. Especially since you said you were doing a ten
pager or something like that.
I'm not really sure why the demo would have worked in that case though.
But I've heard plenty of people who try to use PS with 1 meg 500's and have
problems.
Yes, that is pretty rude of Soft-Logik. I do agree that it shouldn't just
crash on you. I get really mad at programs that do that too.
Solution = more memory
>>DonovaN
Donovan, as stated elsewhere, the next version of PageStream will be more 1
meg friendly. It will actually take up a few more K (just a few), but it
will me more stable with 1 meg. I'm not sure why Barry had no problems iwth
the demo either.
SL Tech
Barry –
Here's something that made a previous version of PgS start working
_much_ more reliably for me: Go into the icon and make sure your stack is
set for 40000 or so (that's a pseudo-random number I selected that seemed
to work). Also, make sure you have lots of chip ram – PgS is (obviously)
graphics-intensive. Free system memory is also a plus; try saving your
document, exiting PgS, re-entering, re-loading, and _then_ printing. It'll
defragment ram and make your print jobs go faster.
Harry
Harry,
Thanks, I'll try increasing the stack. I have tried the save, exit,
restart, reload routine-no luck.
Barry
Barry,
Pagestream 2.1 isn't perfect, but I've used it for several months and
have had it crash only once — and I've never had trouble getting it to
print. Could be you got a bad copy or something like that.
Darron
– via Whap!
Darron,
Are you using a 1 meg Amiga by any chance? That's where I had all the
problems. When I expanded the memory to 3 megs, most of the problems
dissapeared.
Barry
Barry,
No, I use PageStream on a seven meg machine. I hope that you've seen
the last of your troubles.
Darron
– via Whap!
Rich;
Just to clear up one point. With Pgs on a 1 meg machine, with _over_
200K of free RAM:, Pgs will _regularly_ crash when clicking between the
pointer icon and the text icon. That's the kind of problem that leads me
to say-"non-functional". Just no excuse for that. I can't imagine Pgs
_"needing"_ 200K to put a cursor on the screen. I think that is a coding
problem. (It _doesn't_ happen when in the 3 meg mode).
The memory thing only happened when trying to print. While V. 1.8
would (apparently) check how much RAM: was available and not try to take
more than was there-which is my guess as to why it would crash when trying
to print.
Now, if I could just figure out why documents larger than 8.5" by 11"
print out with a couple of inches missing…
Barry
Barry,
Your message went to Dorron C. Knutson, but I think it was intended for me.
re "…Pgs will _regularly crash when clicking between the pointer icon and
the text icon…
Yep. I get the same problem on a 3 meg machine. Just not regularly –
occasionally. VERY annoying. Save _frequently_. I agree, its a bug in the
code. No argument. It should not happen. I am sure that SL will correct it.
With its warts, Pgs is still the best program of its kind on this machine.
I truly hope you get to like it. And I truly hope that SL fixes it!
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
Guys: you're talking two separate bugs here. The memory bug is one thing.
(When you run out of memory and PgS does not gracefully accept the fact.)
That's a known bug for some 1 meg configurations and is entirely fixed in
2.2. The other bug is the infamous mode switching bug. It happens when
switching between text and object tools, for no apparent reason. Doesn't
depend on memory. This one is not yet fixed in 2.2. If you can provide a
repeatable demo, we'll fix it! We have spent days and days trying to fix
this one.
SL
Do you mean that the one bug fix I have been looking forware to is not
fixed in 2.2?? The mode switching bug is not always consisten but it does
exist. It because of that bug I have lost work. I can't even do a couple
of changes in PS without saving because I do not trust the program. I am
petrified that my next click will lock the computer.
You say you have spent days and days trying to fix it. Please spend weeks
and weeks if you have to.
>>DonovaN
Donovan,
Save often. The bug _is_ bad. But I can attest to being able to do tons of
productive work with Pgs.
I have my F10 key configured as a macro to do a save. I hit it all the
time. Pgs fortunately writes its native file to the disk very rapidly. I
never have to wait more than a fraction of a second (on a 3000) even with
fairly large files.
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
I use PgS more than anyone in the world, probably, and haven't had that
problem for over a month now. So, while we haven't specifically fixed it we
can't find it right now. 🙂 I don't want to say it's fixed until we know
what it is. But don't worry, if it's still around we'll exterminate it.
By the way, we have really cool brochures now for BME and PageLiner if you
want to see 'em. Call Sales at 1-800-829-8608 and ask for product
information on BME/PageLiner and HotLinks. You are warned though, that once
you see a BME screenshot, you will feel compelled to buy it!
SL Tech
SL:
Where is Art Expression? Is it finished? Is it packaged? Will it ship this
year?
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
We have not yet announced a shipping date for Art Expression. Sorry, can't
give you any more info.
SL
SL,
Ah, the infamous mode switching bug.
I wish I could provide a 'repeatable demo' to you to demonstrate this bug!
It just happens from time to time. It happens with large files, small
files. When memory is wide open or tight (I have no idea about the
condition of chip memory, though).
I think that it happens when I click too rapidly or move the mouse pointer
too quickly after clicking. Hope you find this bug. It's a killer!
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
Richard:
re the mode switching bug… I have often thought, like you, that the
lockup occurs when clicking very rapidly… I try to remeber to click the
gadgets in a bit more controlled fashion, but it still gets me once in a
while 🙁
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
I suspect that this bug is due to too many Forbid() calls for the number of
Permit() calls.
For some reason, PStream constantly seems to be turning off task switching,
and then turning it on again. It may be because it is looking for speed
(unlikely, since this wouldn't save much) or it is doing naughty things
with system structures and can't afford to have another task alter any
lists.
For each Forbid(), there must be a corresponding Permit() … and I wonder
if, as you hit one of those gagdets, a Forbid() is called, but if you then
hit the other gadget fast enough, the associated Permit() is never called.
So, there is one too many Forbid() calls made.
Although I have discussed task-switching lockouts with S-L before, and had
related it to this bug, they didn't seem to show any interest other than to
say that you don't notice the machine locking up on a fast machine.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
Mike:
If Soft Logic replied to your querry regarding task-switching lockouts in
that manner, they are absolutely wrong. Unless they consider a single page
document on a 6 meg A3000 (25Mhz 68030) overtaxing.
The lockouts appear to me to occur ONLY when switching QUICKLY from the
OBJECT gadget to the TEXT gadget. As I mentioned to Doc Rose in an earlier
message, being a little more careful with regard to how fast I click from
one gadget to another seems to eliminate the problem.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael,
That is the only time I can track down that bug as well. When I click too
quickly.
BTW, I just switched to using PS on the WorkBench. Under 2.0 I have a 1356
x 964 screen opened. I can open up a full page and just scroll around it
by moving my mouse across the screen. Man, this is great. I like it much
better than the custom screen.
>>DonovaN
We are aware of the task switching problem. For example, PgS will pause
during printing sometimes if its screen isn't on top. Not a good thing.
It's being worked on. BTW, PgS is written in assembler, not C.
SL
I can't say that I've seen the printing problem you refer to … but I do
see that, if PgS is rendering a text box and I push the screen to the back
and try to do anything on another screen (which is what multi-tasking is
all about) the cursor locks up until the box has been completed.
The cursor doesn't just lock up under these circumstances … there are
several occasions where, if you select something on the control panel, the
cursor will freeze while you move it around the screen.
Clearly, PgS is doing something like Forbid()/Permit() when an operation
like this is performed (it should be using these routines whether written
in ASM or C).
If PgS calls Forbid() checks to see if something else has been clicked,
continues with its work and then performs Permit(), it is just possible
that in the brief instant between the Forbid() being called and the job in
hand being executed, PgS is being asked to go on to another job and leaving
the Forbid() active.
I'm not saying this _is_ what is happening … I'm saying this is the sort
of scenario that would lead to exactly the problems that have been reported
and is the area where some attention should be directed.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
SL,
"…PgS will pause during printing sometimes if its screen isn't on top."
It doesn't only pause, it corrupts the PostScript output file. I get around
this by _always_ printing to RAM:
This accomplishes several beneficial things.
1. It's fast. The file prints and I can use PgS again very quickly. It
seems to always finish printing before the above described bug cuts in,
should I accidently push the PgS screen to the background.
2. This is the best way to acheive printer spooling since PgS doesn't
directly offer such a function (and probably shouldn't).
In my PgS printer configuration, "Send To Disk File " is the default. When
ready to print, I hit RtAmiga-P once to see the Print Requester Window,
check to see that the parameters there are acceptable, and hit RtAmiga-P
again to accept the settings. Then I hit F7 which is a macro which sends
the file to RAM:x.
First, the Macro clears (Esc key) whatever path comes up in the requester
that the second RtAmiga-P brings up. It then enters "RAM:" and "X" and a
couple of carriage returns.
I have a little script file running from my startup-sequence which checks
for the existence of RAM:x every few seconds. If it finds RAM:x, it sends
it out the serial port, then erases RAM:x. This all takes an instant to do
once it is all set. Makes printing from PgS painless.
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
My favorite theory is that it only happens if you use keyboard equivs and
the tools to switch modes, but I think someone shot that down already.
ML SL Tech
I don't use keyboard equivalents, strictly a mouse clicker, and if I move
quickly enough, it'll lock up… although sometimes, if given enough time
without any other activity, It'll come back.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Mike,
I use keyboard equivs much more than I do the mouse. But I beleieve that I
have only seen the task switching bug when using the mouse. And then only
if I am hurrying. On several occasions, the program came back for a few
subsequent operations, but went south again soon after.
You go your way . . . I'll go Maui
Rich 😉
Rich:
That is EXACTLY my experience with the task switching bug. I do hope that
SL takes this VERY seriously, because it DOES cause the loss of work. And
as far as I am concerened, there IS no more serious fault in productivity
software!
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Barry: to print larger than 8.5 x 11, you must not only make a larger
document (page size), but you must change the paper size in the Configure
Printer requester (given that your printer can accept larger paper.) I seem
to recall a bug in the Atari version for tabloid pages which cut off 2
inches on the bottom, but that was a beta and I think it was Atari only.
Should be no problem. We print large sizes regularly with the Amiga
version.
SL
Thanks, I thought this was probably something I was doing wrong. If it were
a bug, I wouldn't expect the file to keep opening correctly after being
closed so many times.
Barry
<< Now, if I could just figure out why documents larger than 8.5" by 11"
print out with a couple of inches missing…>>
If you are using a laser printer, and you are getting printouts with
with a couple of inches missing (at the bottom I assume) then you need more
RAM in your printer.
JH
– via Whap!
Don't forget also to set the paper size in Configure printer. Changing the
document size alone doesn't mean you can print 14".
SL
Normally I would respond to such a message with kind and gentle questions
to help you identify the problems you are having. However, when you exhibit
the poor taste and bad judgment to use terms like "…negligence and utter
stupidity…" you deserved to be slammed.
I didn't notice you posting any inquiry to other users or Soft Logic Tech
Support online here and yet for some reason you feel justified in flaming a
product that works extremely well for many user here on CIS (and thousands
not online).
I sincerely hope that you just got up on the wrong side of the bed and that
you are not really the kind of jerk you appear to be.
I you really want to find out if you have a bad version of the software
(unlikely, but possible) or find out what YOU are doing wrong, then post
the specifics of your hardware and software configuration.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Mike,
If you contend that PageStream 2.1 operates on a 1 meg Amiga 500 you
are welcome to demonstrate that to me. Though you'll have trouble, unless
of course you're trying to get a black screen with a flashing red box
saying, "Software Failure. Guru Meditation Error".
As for your assumption that I am doing something wrong, try again.
Soft Logik tech support knows about the "problems" with 2.1. You see, Mike,
it appears that _they_ did something wrong, that _they_ knew about it, and
that _they_ kept quite.
As for getting a bad copy of the software, well, the other day I
bought a 2 meg memory expansion, and low and behold, when I turn it on Page
Stream goes to a solid desk top publishing program, when I turn it
off-Guruville.
So, Mike, in your opinion, I deserve to be slammed for this crime. This
horrible crime of believing that software should work as well as the demo
version of that software. Well slam away, dude-I'm guilty as sin of that
and damn proud of it. I only have two questions for you. Just how long have
you been selling used cars? And, does it feel really good to kick someone
when they're down?
Barry