#CompuServe Magazine
120 messages in this thread
Hi !
I'm writing an article for CompuServe Magazine on orphaned computers.
I'll be examining systems such as the old Amstrad, Apricot and Victor,
systems that have been abandoned by their manufacturers but not their
owners. I'd be exploring how members keep these machines viable, by using
the forums to share information on upgrades and hard-to-find software.
Dated machines, such as the old C-64 and Macintosh Lisa, will also be
included in the story, which will examine the reasons for their owners'
loyalty and where they go online to find support.
Specialized systems such as those produced by Atari and Amiga, which
lack the market share of an Apple or IBM, will also be discussed–where
programs and support for these systems can be obtained in the system etc…
The article will include a sidebar listing some of the best files for
these systems, files recommended by users.
Finally, I'll be exploring the growing interest in computer collecting.
What machines are hot, why and where you can find them
If you own one of these machines and have a story that you'd like to
share, or a favorite file to recommend, please contact me via E-Mail at
70004,515 and tell me your story. Thanks !
This is REALLY sad…. the Amiga being discussed in an article concerning
'orphaned computers'…. but I guess any advertising is good advertising,
right?
Re best files, for your users (CIS customers) WHAP! is the #1 choice for a
long mention, in my book.
–jp–seattle–
Yes, and the C-64 is "dated" whereas the Apple II is not??? Frankly, I wish
CIS would get rid of that magazine and lower my online rates instead. It
really has very little to recommend it in my view and it is probably not
cheap to produce.
I can't remember the last time I actually read an article in the
magazine. Probably cause I never have. 😎 Agreed, lower the rates instead.
— Ethan
Would you prefer advertising at the bottom of the screen? 1/2:-)
Actually, I have no way of knowing for sure, but a guess suggests that the
magazine might actually be bringing in advertising dollars that do lower
your rates. In other words, if CIS were inclined to lower their rates,
then I doubt that production of the magazine would affect that decision
(the advertising in it should make it nearly self supporting).
David
– via Whap!
Dave,
I'd guess that the advertising in Compuserve Magazine pays for the
magazine and it's mailing…and not much else.
Don
Probably true. At least it provides a fairly easy, *off-line* method of
trying to keep up with all the stuff that is on CIS.
David
– via Whap!
Considering CIS's rates compared to every other end-user oriented online
service, I don't think they need the advertising revenues from the magazine
to stay in business. 😉
I hear that…
However, I do find the magazine a much better way of advertising than the
Prodigy method (if they've got to advertise, that is… :-\ ).
David
– via Whap!
I've been thinking the same thing for a long time. Compuserve Magazine is
a worthless bunch of marketing trash.
My sentiments, exactly. C.M. is a waste and an insult.
Jim,
I that (C-64 is "date" whereas the Apple II is not???) very interesting
as well. Isn't that beast still selling very well? I seem to remember the
C-64 as the computer that CBM has tried to kill every year and it still
sells.
Hmm… come to think of it, we may be next!
Brian J. Bartlett
Last quarter, the C-64 showed a 30% increase in sales (not sure if that is
unit numbers or dollar amount, altho I'd guess dollar amount) worldwide
while the Amiga had a 20% growth. The C-64 is anything but dead or
orphaned.
-sja
Although I wonder how long sales on the C64 will increase, even at 20% per
year. The word I got last year was that CBM "Officially" and finally
killed it, but still had 250,000 in the warehouses.
I have noticed a STRONG resurgence in people buying USED C64's. I probably
get anywhere from 2-5 people a month in my store (PC and Amiga) looking
(desperately) for support for their "new" computer. About all I can do is
sell them a copy of Tenex's "Everything Book for the Commdore 64/128/Amiga"
catalog that comes out about every six months. Which reminds me I need to
increase my order of that… we sell out everytime and usually a couple of
months before getting the new ones.
Jim,
Add my vote to the long list of those in support of your comment for
getting rid of CompuServe Magazine–and lowering rates.
via Whap! Al Benglen
74615,500
Victor,
WHY would you ever talk about current production machines in an
article about orphaned computers!!!
Pure stupidity sir!
The Amiga is not a "specialized system" but rather a general
purpose machine that happens to have a lot of specialized applications
written for it because it's better suited to those applications (such as
video work) than the IBM's and Mac's of the world.
If you want to talk about orphaned machines…fine…but don't lump
current production machines in that article.
If you also want to write about machines that now seem to be
"nitche" machines then write about them in a separate article.
Geeze…that's all we need, to lump the Amiga in with machines that
are no longer manufactured.
Don
Agreed. The Amiga is NOT an orphaned computer. There are at least 2
million, and possibly 2.5-3 million machines worldwide. It is the leading
CPU for video applications, and in some cases one of the fastest desktops
around. (My personal system is running a 68040 cpu, at about 20 mips, with
18 megabytes of memory.) As a fellow writer I strongly suggest you focus on
your topic, which if it is orphaned machines would indicate computers no
longer manufactured or supported. I don't think the Amiga fits that
description in *ANY* way. Lou Wallace
Lou,
You mentioned running an '040… is this the Fusion Forty board? If so,
how do you like it? any problems? price?
If not, same questions as above plus… where'd ya get it? <grin>
Keith
You have a 68040 in your Amiga running at 20 mips? God I always wanted to
be a magazine editor when I grew up 8^)
John (in beautiful downtown Walla Walla) – via Whap!
Well said, very well said Don!
via Whap! Al Benglen
74615,500
Don –
I agree with you! The idea of including the Amiga in such an article is
downright stupid.
I do hope you sent Victor the same message via E-mail as he requested,
just to be sure that he gets it. He may not be over here in the public
forums for awhile. And from his assumptions – it appears he knows nothing
about the Amiga anyway, and that was probably his first & only vist to this
area of the system.
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
Roy,
I think you meant that message for me, and yes…I not only
EMail'ed him a copy of my reply…I also sent your reply off to him along
with some others.
Don
Thanks Don –
Yes I meant it to go to you. Can't seem to get the comment/reply button
straight 🙁 And I even attempted to change the address in a text editor
after I closed View! down. Something must of changed it back, or I didn't
save the change. Oh -well, you got the message.
– Roy Pahnke – Casper, Wyomin'
Victor,
You might want to do a little research before you lump the Amiga into
an article on 'Orphaned' machines… it is by NO means orphaned.
I also concur with Don's reply to you in regards to the 'specialized'
catagory.
One more observation… you'd being doing the Amiga a great
dis-service by listing it in the same catagory as the Atari, they are in 2
entirely different leagues.
Keith
Calm down Folks,
Put down those pitchfolks, ease off on those trigger-fingers. Judging
from the reaction around here, you guys are really mad at somebody for
something, but I don't think it should be me <g>…
Just for the record, I never implied that the Amiga OR the Atari was an
orphan-computer. I said they had smaller market shares than IBM and MAC.
It's hard to find a decent selection of software, or even hardware, in many
computer stores. That was the main point of including them in the story.
Someone criticized me for being unfamiliar with the Amiga and I don't
own an Amiga or even have access to one. I wish I did. That's why I came
here looking for answers, advice and help. Because I respect the machine
and its users. I am looking for information from you because this *IS* my
research stage.
At this stage the story concept is still subject to change, but I think
there has to be a less insulting way of communicating suggestions. Speaking
strictly for myself and not as a representative of CompuServe, I can only
say that when I wake up in the morning and look in the mirror I see the
same things you do. I see a face and I see a person. You don't need to
insult me to get my attention. I'm here and I'm listening.
–Vic
I think the best thing to do is to write two articles. I'm sure you'll
find enough information about the Amiga (and other computers) that do well
in certain niche markets to write a second article. Keep the idea about
orphaned computers (like the Adam, and TI), but write that second article!
(At the very least you'll be able to put more money into your pocket with
two articles!)
Steve
Victor,
Well said. And I, for one, am ashamed at some of the the comments you've
had to endure. We're a bit sensitive around here, when non-amiga users,
(even earnest, information seeking non-amiga users!) say something innocent
enough, that rubs us the wrong way. Maybe it's 'self-hatred' born of our
love for a superior hardware system that has been badly abused by its
manufacturer, and largely ignored by the rest of the computing world.
I would sugest that you not include in your article ('ORPHANED COMPUTERS'
or whatever it's called) anything about ANY currently manufactured
computer.., did you know that there were about one million Amigas sold in
the last twelve months? That's not bas considering that there have been
only about 6 – 7 million MACS sold in the last 6 years! In fact, that
should tell you something.
You might consider writing a sidebar titled something like "Computers
Outside The Mainstream" that discusses systems like the Amiga, the ST and
the NeXT. That would, I think, make a lot of folks here (including me!) a
lot happier.
BTW, the libraries here (and on Genie, along with the FredFish disk
collection of public domain and shareware programs) represent the majority
of software in use on the Amiga (I hope that if you disagree out there
folks, you'll add your two cents worth). You see, we Amiga users, for the
most part, don't have the luxury of walking in to a local discount computer
store to browse through aisle after aisle of software, books, and hardware.
We do most of our shopping by mail order. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, where
there are really a great number of Amiga users, and yet our only local
dealer is also a camera store… and even though he tries his best, and
keeps a qualified technician on staff, well, just how much inventory do you
think he can afford to keep in stock?
The company that manufactures and markets the Amiga does most of its
business in Europe, where the Amiga is all the rage. But that market is
different than the North American market, and we suffer for that, too.
[ MORE ]
Michael,
I appreciate your comments and found them very enlightening. As for the
sidebar, given the reaction here I think it would be best served in a
seperate story. I certainly empathize with the frustrations of many members
here.
Is it true what I've heard about Amiga software prices being less than
those for Mac and IBM ?
–Vic
Vic,
Yes, Amiga software prices are much lower than the MAC or IBM titles (with
the exception of most game titles). The developers online here can give
you a better explanation of why that is so… I'll defer to those in the
know.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
BTW, Vic, where are you located?
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael,
I'm in Columbus, Ohio–via a lifetime in the Bronx (g). Why, did you notice
my accent ?
–Vic
Yeah, it was the accent… Born In Brooklyn I pick up on stuff like that
😉
Ok Victor… here's your assignment: pack the wife & kids in the car, tell
'em your all going to Kings Island, let 'em fall asleep in the car on the
drive south, and then go visit Expert Systems in Florence, KY.
It's a very small shop, but staffed by terrific folk who know the Amiga
very well and would be happy (delighted, really) to put one through its
paces for you!
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael,
That shouldn't be a problem. I have to go through Kentucky twice a month
when I visit the wife in Tenneesee. She's working for the Department of
Energy in Oak Ridge.
–Vic
Vic, BTW, I'm in Cleveland.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael,
Really ? I'm driving up there tonight to visit a buddy from Queens. He's on
Shaker Blvd., near Shaker Square.
–Vic
Vic:
If you'd like to see an Amiga, give me a call, 216-439-1423. I use my
Amiga for pretty dry stuff like WP, & DTP, but I can show you some of what
makes the Amiga wonderful to work with.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Victor,
Yes! Amiga software is often much cheaper than comparable software for
the IBM or Mac. As an example, the 3-D program I use, Imagine by Impulse,
costs $300 MSRP ($194 mail order) and has a most complete set of modules to
create objects, animate them and render the results. It features such
high-powered functions as altitude/color/reflectance/transparency mapping,
object morphing, choice of rendering mode (scanline/ray tracing) up to 8000
x 8000 resolution, hierarchical animation, and on and on and on.
Blaq! – via Whap!
Blaq,
How does Imagine compare to Atudesk's 3D-Studio. I had a look at that and
as very impressed.
–Vic
Victor,
as I'm going away for 2 weeks, let me suggest this: GO AMIGAVEND and
you'll find the Impulse section. There you can probably download a file
describing the features of Imagine, and compare it with the review of
Autodesk 3D-Studio that, I think, appeared in Byte about 2 months ago. Also
make sure you compare the price!
Blaq! – via Whap!
Victor–
I've used both 3D-Studio and Imagine. 3DS has a pretty great
editor/modeler, but is not too far ahead of Imagine. On the other hand,
Autodesk's renderer is comparitively primitive – it does not do ray tracing
(which is the the most advanced way to get 3D graphics, and the most
realistic), and it is pretty slow for what it is doing. A similiar
rendering between Imagine and 3DS, with machines of similiar power, at
similiar resolution, gets done in Imagine long before 3DS. The output of
Newtek's Lightwave program is closer to 3DS, but better looking. And
Lightwave is *MUCH* faster…
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
It just sounded like your article was going to be called "Orphaned
Computers" and was going to put the Amiga alongside the Apple II and the
PCjr. BTW, not even the C=64 can be considered orphaned. It is selling over
700,000 units a year!
— Ethan
Ethan,
No, I was just looking for a way to work the NeXT and Amiga into the
story because so little is written about them. I was thinking more of a
sidebar with information on aquiring software and hardware tips online
because they're so hard to find in most dealerships–in that sense they're
orphans, but only in that sense. It seems like you really need to know
where to look.
Part of the problem is that "Orphan" is such a potent word. I certainly
hope it makes it gets used in the headline when the article finally
appears, *minus* specialized machines like the Amiga and NeXT (g).
The continuing popularity of the C-64 is really puzzling to me. I don't
know very much about it other than that it was around when I was in high
school and was viewed as a game machine. What the story guys, why would
anyone want to buy a C-64 now ?
–Vic
Vic,
one of the interesting things I ran into in the Navy was the sheer
number of C-64's out there. According to my sister the same situation is
true with the Army. I think that there are three factors involved.
First, if your friends have C-64's, your likely to buy them. They are
pretty cheap, unless you like a lot of expansion, and you have your buddies
as tech reps. It's also more capable than any machine for the cash.
Compare it to a Nintendo and see how it stacks up 🙂
Second, there are still a lot of games available. After you've been
working on a radar, or typewriter, for the last 8 hours (frequently 12 or
more hours) you want a nice diversion. True, you can do serious things
with a C-64, for instance word processing, etc, but it fills those empty
hours with Choplifter, etc ad nauseum.
Lastly, I hate to say it, piracy is fairly common in the C-64 community.
At least that is true of the segment I was familiar with. If you want a
piece of software, it's available from someone you know. Most of the
software requires no manual to operate, all you need is the loading
instructions if your unwilling to experiment. That isn't true with my
family, but I have seen it.
Anyway, that's the way I saw it in use.
Brian J. Bartlett
Just a sidenote to the C-64 story. We use them in the FAA to send and
display weather information, Pilot reports, and other notes between the
Tower's and Flight Service stations. I helped write the software and it is
burned into Eprom using a cartridge. It's been a fairly reliable system in
use about 4 years, 24 hours a day – 7 days a week. The only problem is that
I have to replace the keyboards once in awhile. With so much use, they
can't take the beating. So even though the C-64 is a bit obsolete
technically, it still is a great workhorse of an 8-bit computer.
John (in beautiful downtown Walla Walla) – via Whap!
Vic,
I too, apologize for the trouncing you got by us usually good natured
amigans. You will find us fiercely loyal and do not take kindly to even a
hint that we may be using anything other than the greatest pc in the
world!! Most of this attitude comes from commodore itself, as someone else
here said `They couldn't market legit $100.00 bills for $20.00 apiece'. If
you can not afford one at the present time, please attend a user's group
meeting in your area to help get the feel for this unique 'puter or get a
friend with one to give you a guided tour.
Yes it is true that most sw for the amiga is less expensive than pc's or
Macs. The high end word processors average around $125.00 mail order, and
we would put excellance 2.0 against Word Perfect anyday!! Our major
graphics programs are in the $100-$200 range, our high end database
(Superbase Pro, also available for Windows) suggested retail is only $499
and can be found for as little as $300 with a little shopping. There are
quite a few areas that we are slack in, in the business end but we are
slowly getting there. Our 3rd party support is second to none in the
industry. Actually an Amiga equipped with a GVP 50mhz 68030 accelerator
lays claim to be the fastest PC in the world!!! (for less than $4000.00,
A2000 + accelerator).
..Steve
Whap!ping from beautiful coastal South Carolina
Perhaps a side note on *why* Amiga software prices are less than those for
Mac & IBM. It basically has to do with companies selling software not for
a price which reflects what it cost to make, but rather a price which is
perceived as the amount the market is willing to bear. If the buyers in a
market are willing to pay more for a particular type of product, then the
software publishers will charge more for that software, even if it didn't
cost more to make. (Note this is a general market trend, and is often
inapplicable on a company by company basis…)
Thus, on the PC, where the purchasers of software are really big
corporations who could care less about the price of the software and more
about who makes it or whether it matches their existing installed base, you
may find yourself paying $500 for a word processor, whereas a similar word
processor on the Amiga, where the market is smaller businesses and
individual users, both of whom are more cost conscious, it might cost only
$200-$300. Or less.
Of course, this has some unfortunate side effects: Since the Amiga
version of a program would need to sell for less, and is selling to a
smaller market than the PC, it doesn't get as much support as the PC might.
So we have less of a software base, and many of the larger companies simply
don't think it worthwhile to support the Amiga.
But even this has side effects: If the software *was* supported and
created, the Amiga would sell more to larger corporations, resulting in
higher support and higher prices. (Heck, even the current level of
software support may drive things up eventually. The Mac was in our
position a few years back. Now look at the high priced software being made
for it. I fear Amiga software prices are doomed eventually to follow.)
–>Steve Bennett
Let me give my spin on what you said: We agree that Amiga prices are low;
I think it's due to two factors: One, Amiga companies started in this
market, almost every one – we don't have Symantec or Borland in this
market. Also, users tended to be former Commodore buyers, which means they
were probably home users, not business users. I think the combination led
to lower prices: both from companies who didn't understand how to price the
software in order to cover the cost of making it and to get the profit
necessary to support, advertise and stay around for another year, and from
that assumption that Amiga owners are cheapskates, and are willing to waste
$30 on a program that doesn't really perform like the $200 PC version.
If the Amiga market ever "grows up", prices will go up because the
remaining Amiga companies will be "real" companies – the ones who turn a
profit, as opposed to serving as an interesting hobby for the owners.
Also, if users become more serious, they'll demand better, more
professional software. That is, developers will discover the customers who
are willing to pay for a real product.
Michael,
I think your message was great! I would just like to say, tho, that your
Amiga dealer may not be typical. In my area, Denver, we have 5 Amiga
dealers, 3 of those are Amiga only, all carrying, in stock, between 400-500
titles at any given time, all sorts of Amiga books, and every US and
english language European magazine available.
-sja
Thanks Steve.
Now I have three reasons to head out your way as often as possible: 1)
Sales calls on PACE 2) Skiing at Beaver Creek & Aspen (every spring!) 3)
Shop for amiga stuff!! <g>
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Sounds to me like the Denver area has better Amiga support than the
U.S. area, by far! Funny how the Amiga's support is very regionalized. Not
surprising why Denver was chosen for DevCon.
Talking about DevCon, it'd be nice to see one of these amazing
dealers. So who is organizing the get-together? 😎
— Ethan
Ethan,
another Amiga enclave is San Diego. I don't know why that is true, but
it is. I miss my dealers there.
Brian J. Bartlett
Brian,
I was in San Diego about a month ago. What I noticed was very poor Amiga
support, unless you drove to Ramona and went to S.I.G.H. (tough to find but
well worth it).
-sja
Steve,
really? I never had any problems in San Diego. I wonder if that's due
to my being there so long or have some stores closed. I'll talk to my
friends down there and find out what's up.
Brian J. Bartlett
Steve,
I think most computer users are like me, I can't walk by a software or
hardware shop without stepping inside for a peek. After enough peeks I
begin to form my own opinions on what machines are where on the PC-Pyramid,
what my dream machine is and what's just so much junk…But it's hard to
form an opinion on a machine that you've never actually sen and isn't
advertised on TV or in mainstream publications.
–Vic
Really? I guess I'm going to have to stop in one or more of these Amiga
dealers when I'm out in Denver. It's really frustrating that here in the
Philly area there are only two Amiga dealers who aren't photo places and
both are relatively hard to get to. Terrible support for the area
containing CBM's West Chester HQ, IMHO.
–>Steve Bennett
[ continuation ]
Our greatest frustration comes from our inability to leave this machine and
join the mainstream! You see, after working on an Amiga, MSDOS looks so
incredibly clumsy, slow, and outdated, that even the hottest MSDOS programs
usually pale in our eyes in light of a multi-tasking Amiga. Oh yeah,
MULTI-TASKING. We've been doing it for years. It's built in to the
hardware/operating system design. At first the rest of the desktop
computer said "who needs it", now they say "have you seen windows?" or
"hey, my MAC has pre-emptive multitasking". Well, I've seen them both. I
even have to use windows on a regular basis, and, trust me on this, there
is nothing in the desktop world that compares with true multi-tasking.
I couldn't imagine running my business (independent sales & marketing co.)
without my amiga. === my computer is churning out a postscript DTP file in
the background while I'm working on a spreadsheet slaes presentation, when
the phone rings and a customer needs to check on an order, so with the
other two programs still running in their own screens or windows, I point
and click and my database is visible, allowing me access to the information
my customer wants.=== It is so easy and so intuitive, that after five years
of owning my Amiga(s), I still couldn't write a single line of "code", and
I still need to look up the syntax of a command line when I need to issue a
system command manually. The sysytem itself is that easy to use.
Well, I've gone on too long. I'll let others share some thougfhts with you
(and take me aprt for what I've said… isn't online life fun?). 🙂
By the way, I should qualify that all of the above is strictly my personal
and humble opinion.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
I'll have to re-read my msg that prompted this reply, and maybe your reply
to was not directed directly towards me, but I did not mean to insult you.
I was just expressing my oppinions on your original posting that seemed to
put the Amiga in the same league as the (somewhat orphaned,
non-multi-tasking Atari ST). I felt then, as I do still, that that would
be a mistake.
Keith
Keith,
I was just posting to the last message in the thread.
–Vic
Vic,
the online medium has its share of polite and not-so-polite messages. My
main concern is with the final wording of the article. It's one thing to
have a positive piece about the various machines thriving outside the
IBM/Apple sphere; it's another thing to further damage these machines'
reputation by using the wrong terms. I feel that most users here will be on
edge, waiting to see what the final result will be.
Blaq! – via Whap!
Victor-
I think the problem is that Amiga folks know that they are using a
machine that could become extinct before it completely realizes its full
potential. This is (obviously) not due to brand loyalty, but to the brand
itself – CBM. Commodore is probably its own worst enemy, at least when it
comes to R&D, marketing, support, etc. The Amiga tends to take many a
black eye in the computing press, and this is mostly undeserved.
So, what you have is a lot of very frustrated people. I feel the same
way. When someone comes along and tells us that they are writing an
article about computer orphans, and they are going to include my machine of
choice, I become a bit defensive. This is mostly because it just ain't so.
The Amiga is blessed with very innovative third-party support, praise
Jah. In addition, CBM seems to push things a bit further in fits and
starts, although those seem to come all too seldomly, and never push the
envelope enough. The machine is selling relatively well, and new software
always seems to be on the horizon. It can still do things other platforms
either cannot do, or just don't do very well. A machine with this
description does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the word
orphan.
It has been suggested that the Amiga be written up as a "niche" machine.
My honest feeling is that you either split your article(s) into two parts,
one for TRUE orphans, one for niche computers, or simply, leave the Amiga
out of it altogether. Of course, in three years, the Amiga may actually be
orphaned. But right now, its alive, with millions of very loyal users. As
such, it is a viable platform. Write about it that light. We'd all
appreciate a great deal.
Good luck with the article. You probably have the same reaction coming
from users of Atari's, TI's, Apple II's, Lisa's, etc. The only difference
is that our baby is very much alive!
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Jonathan,
It's a frustrating thing to know that the Amiga has pioneered so many
areas, such as Multi-tasking and Multimedia, that are only now becoming hot
topics industry-wide. Unforunately, most of the attention seems to be
directed at the IBM and Mac products and not Amiga.
Part of the problem is Amiga's low marketing profile in the U.S. ,
everything is word of mouth. I've never seen an Amiga commercial and most
computer stores don't even have one on display. t's even worse in corporate
America.
However, I was just reading about Amiga's upgrade incentives and it
certainly seems like a good marketing move. In my estimation, the Amiga
people really need to up their circulation to the point where they have the
kind of critical mass in the U.S. that will force computer stores to start
carrying their machines and software in greater numbers. It might even be
worth selling them at cost for a period of time.
I for one would really love to have one of the new Amigas, but I just
cannot spare the cash right now. I've got a baby on the way…I mean my
wife has a baby on the way <g>… So for the time being, talking to you
folks here on the forum is the closest I'm going to get to one.
–Vic
Speaking of Amiga commercials…. we made our own commercial for our Amiga
store using the A3000 demo unit on display in the store. – With a little
help from my old A1000. That sort of impressed the guys at the tv station.
-Jim
Jim,
How much does an A3000 with all the trimmings go for and would you sell the
floor model for a discount ?
–Vic
Victor,
I just got a flyer from a local dealer. He's selling his floor model 3000s
(25 mHz, 4M ram, 50M HD) for $2049.
-sja
Steve,
Can you give me the dealer's number and how does that price compare to what
you can get mail order (can you get Amiga stuff mail order ?) ?
–Vic
Victor,
The dealer is Computer Discount in Denver. I'm sure the demo units have
been long sold, tho. There is no (sanctioned) Amiga computer mailorder.
Units sold via mail order are grey market and the warranty will not be
honored by CBM.
<There is no (sanctioned) Amiga computer mailorder.>
My sources in the industry tell me that's on the verge of changing.
Meanwhile, anyone who wants to risk the grey market can call a couple of
mail-order places, including Computability (I never had trouble with 'em,
personally) and Montgomery Grant (lotsa people claim lotsa troubles).
>> Ron Legro / Milwaukee
via WHAP!
How many A3000s does Your dealer have?
Darin
– via Whap!
Darin,
It's not _my_ dealer that has that price. It's Computer Discount (the
retail arm of Progressive Peripherals). It's their "going out of business
sale" (leaving Denver area with 4 _good_ dealers).
Steve,
Of course, before they went out of business, there were 4 _good_ dealers
in the area. <grin>
..BobR
Steve (and others),
I went down to Computer Discount on Thursday. The only thing they
had left was a few A1000's (well used I might add). One DOA A2000 (useful
for parts only) and one working A2000. 2 A500c packages, 2 Progressive 2
Meg Cards (ASDG designed the cards) and 2 A2620 boards.
Even that may be gone by now.
Don
Victor,
I know exactly what you mean, and that's why I say that the problem is
not brand loyalty, but the brand itself. CBM is the '62 Mets of the
computer world – they seem to find new ways to make mistakes.
I hope that you can get your hands on an Amiga pretty soon, but it
sounds like you have your hands full right now. However, once the new
arrival arrives, you can always pitch an Amiga as something to put the
finishing touches on your home video of Junior…it seems that this is how
the Amiga ends up in the corporate world, too. My machine at work is an
Amiga, but it was cost-justified on its "niche" abilities. However, it
doesn't stop me from making other users envious of my graphic
word-processor, multi-tasking, and other other niceties that PC users
really want. Of course, my boss doesn't complain about the lower software
bills, either…
Thanks for the reply. I hope that some of the rabid and semi-rabid
replies to you initial query have shed some light on the Amiga. I also
hope that it doesn't fall under the "orphan" heading in you article.
Good luck with the article,
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Jonathan,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Things are a little tight right now, but
I was thiknking of putting my IBM 2/55 on the block. Especially if the
Amiga 3000 will run my MS DOS software. It will, won't it ?
–Vic (Wapless!)
Vic,
As it comes, out of the box, the Amiga will NOT run your MSDOS software.
The Amiga can be setup to run MSDOS stuff either by using an emulator card
(such as the 8088 or 80286 CBM bridgeboards), or through software
(shareware) called IBeM. The CB bridgeboards retail for about $400 (8088)
and $550 (80286). Their is also an AT emulator called ATOnce about which I
don't have any info, but maybe others can help you out there….it retails
for around $300.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Victor–
I think that someone else has answered your question about running
MS-DOS software on the Amiga. However, if you consider Windows software to
fall under the MS-DOS heading, you'll find that you cannot really run it
well under any of the present schemes, if at all. I believe that the AT
Bridgeboard will not run it correctly; the ATonce board should prove very
anemic for this sort of thing, even though it is supposed to run Windows.
IBeM, the shareware software emulator, works pretty well but runs like an
original IBM PC/XT, perhaps slower. If you are going to get an Amiga, find
out if there is Amiga software that can do the job for you.
If so, it will run much better. Also, if you bundle your PC software with
the PS/2, you'll probably be able to pick up Amiga software with the
software proceeds – its much cheaper than MS-DOS analogs.
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Vic: what Jonathan said!
— Ethan
Vic,
You apparently noted then that lots of folks here weren't real
happy to have the Amiga mentioned in the same breath with orphaned
computers.
Thus a very easy solution is to write two articles. One on
orphaned computers, and one on smaller market computers.
Don
Don,
It's not like I snap my fingers around here and the editors jump up and
down, y'know. Of course, if climbing the corporate ladder was my sole
motivation I wouldn't be typing this message now. I would've just deleted
my earlier plex and disappeared <g>.
One thing to keep in mind through all this, is that CompuServe Magazine
works almost six months ahead of publication at times. The orphan computer
story, for instance, isn't slated to run until January of 1992.
I only mention that because there is more Amiga coverage on the way.
There seems to be a greater awareness of the machine at the magazine these
days and I think I've had something to do with it. I've gotten a number of
small items in the Monitor and Update sections of the magazines as well as
the online publication,"What's New."
The Amiga is a priority for me. I always try to check the "Amiga Angle"
whenever I'm assigned to a new project. That's how I got in hot-water with
you guys in the first place <g>.
It's clear that the Atari, Amiga and NeXT really don't belong in the
"Orphan Computers" story and the section on specialized copmputers has been
*OBLITERATED*. I didn't mean to touch a raw nerve when I included them in
my original post, I was merely searching for an angle that would allow me
to include them.
For the record, I intend to suggest a seperate story on "specialized
computers," for wont of a better term, such as the Amiga, Atari and NeXT.
That does not mean it will be approved. A lot depends on how well such a an
idea is presented.
So, now that the forum has collectively savaged my fragile ego, I think
it behooves you folks to educate me. Fill my mind with Amiga knowledge,
because I don't have access to a machine of my own and that makes it kind
of hard sometimes…
–Vic
Victor: You know, the Atari STs really made an early mark on pro musicians
with their built-in MIDI capability. Now PCs and Macs and Amigas are
picking up the slack. I think it's the same lately with Amiga and "desktop
video" or "multimedia," if you prefer. The Amiga has blazed the trail, and
everyone else is scrambling to catch up, but with the advantage of having
more marketing clout than CBM. Nevertheless, on the basis of influencing
the industry (if not the market), I think it's fair to characterize the
Amiga as a success. Don't forget that the first really graphics-oriented
computer, the somewhat MS-DOS compatible Mindset, bombed within a year of
its introduction. >> Ron Legro / Milwaukee
via WHAP!
Ron,
What the heck is a MindSet. I've *never* heard of it ?
–Vic (learning something new every day)
Ahhhh MindSet…. came out in 1982 or so, as I recall. I saw one at a
local 'used computer store' here in Seattle the other day for $50! (sans
monitor or working disk drive…. oh well – still almost picked it up.
It was the early graphic machine par excellance. Main claim to fame was
some software called 'Lumina' which (as I recall) would beat most current
amiga paint programs cold (as I recall. Remember it was years ago!). It
wasn't IBM/Mac/Apple// compatible, so that pretty much killed it. I do
remember looking at it longingly in the early 80's though!
–jp–seattle–
John,
Mindset came out just a few months before Amiga. When I was working for
Synapse Software in '83-85, they had a bread boxed system (locked up in a
BIG metal case) that they were using for developement. Since the MindSet
is 80186 based and not totally MS-DOS compatible, it didn't make it into
the mass market. As of a year ago, anyway, it was still being produced and
sold into a very narrow vertical market. It was also the first machine
that _I've_ seen that had an interlace mode. I remember my local dealer
scrambling to find monitors that would work with it.
-sja
It was a niche PC marketed to video types around 1984-85, just before the
Amiga came out. It ran, as I recall, on an 80186 Intel processor, which was
a fast 8086 processor, but which had register problems with ordinary MS-DOS
software/hardware. It had a mouse and special versions of MS-DOS and
popular MS-DOS software, but not nearly enough packages were ever
customized for it. It was dearly priced, but better at the time for
graphics work than anything else on the market, including the Macintosh and
its precursor, the Lisa. I think it had enhanced CGA graphics, roughly
equivalent to the old AT&T 640×400 mode; 16 colors max, as I recall. I
remember seeing a demo (they actually had door-to-door salesmen visiting TV
studios and the like). The bundled paint program would look mildly quaint
now, but was impressive then, with a zoom-in pixel-fixing mode and so
forth. Alas, the last I saw the Mindset, it was being closed out at one
mail-order computer dealer a couple of years ago for under a grand. Also,
the Mindset was sexy looking! The CPU box was somewhat modular in
appearance, with stackable units for extra drives. But less than a year
later, the Amiga 1000 came along and outclassed it immediately, both in
price and performance. Still, a VERY elegant machine for its time, and
kindred to the Amiga in concept. >> Ron Legro / Milwaukee
via WHAP!
Victor–
Here's what I know about Mindset: a clever clone maker put together a
sometimes compatible PC clone some years ago, called the Mindset. It had
very advanced graphics for the time (though not as good as VGA, I believe),
and the ability to genlock to video with an add-on. Its case design was
very funky, and was (or still is) in the Museum of Modern Art! The original
maker went belly up, but JVC started to support it for a while – don't
believe they still do. Last saw one in an in-house industrial video
studio, being used for video titling. Told them to get an Amiga….:)
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Ron,
As of a year ago, MindSet was still being sold into a vertical market.
-sja
Vic,
It might be useful to take this thread and present it to your
editors as the best argument for a 2nd article.
As to educating you on the Amiga, we can give you all the words you
want, but the very best thing you could do for yourself in the way of
education would be to locate an Amiga dealer and/or Amiga User's Group in
your area and talk with them. You really do need a hands on demo to
realize the strengths, and weaknesses of this machine.
Don
Victor, here's a suggestion: Call 800-843-8934. That is the number
for NewTek, maker of the Video Toaster. Ask them to send you their two
video-tapes demoing the Video Toaster. If you tell them that you intend to
review the product (whether you do or not is irrelevant) then they'll
probably send it for free.
The Video Toaster is the current "sensation" in the Amiga video
market. You also might want to take a look at the wide variety of 3-D
modelling software available, besides what is included with the Toaster.
Publish magazine made that mistake. They published an article that talked
about multimedia/blah/blah and basically made it out that the Video Toaster
is the only thing for the Amiga. They published a letter ASAP.
Another point to note is that Amiga owners write LOTS of letters.
Magazine editors don't like us one bit. 😎 Almost every magazine I've ever
seen that covered the Amiga "badly" has printed letters ASAP from annoyed
Amiga owners.
Even Time Magazine had to do it. They used Commodore as an example
of a struggling computer company, which at the time they weren't, and they
got such a barrage of letters that they sent out a form letter to everyone
who wrote and published two of them soon after under the title "Amiga
Amigos" 😎 We're very vocal, as you've noticed. 😎
— Ethan
Ethan,
I just called NewTech and they're sending ot out today. As long as we're
all "Educating Vic," how about shipping me out your Amiga for a month…or
not. Anyway, thanks !
–Vic
Vic,
There are several Amigas at CompuServe — customer support, network, etc.
Just ask around, you'll find 'em.
-sja
Steve,
There's an old 300 or 500 in the microlab that doesn't appear to work and
another in *storage* in the Graphics Lab. Believe you me, I've been
looking.
–Vic
Victor, You haven't been looking hard enough! I know of several CIS
employees who own them. You might also check with the local users group —
there is also quite a group of Amiga enthusiasts at the university.
Just an interesting little side note. Here in Milwaukee we enjoy the annual
GenCon gaming convention, largest in the world. Something like 15-20,000
people go through the doors every year to play board games, miniatures, and
computer games. The local Amiga interest group always sets up a large
playing area with borrowed machines, and interconnects them in a little
local network (yes, the Amiga can be LANed, and pretty effectively, too).
Then the attendees play Amiga computer games in contest with one another
(some of these games allow multiple participants across terminals). CBM is
getting interested in participating formally, I'm given to understand. A
lot of Amigans rebel at showing games off on their machines, since we don't
like to be thought of as owning "toy" computers. But think about it: if a
computer can run a hi-res simulation game with digital stereo sound effects
without breathing hard, right out of the box, even though it's only a $500
A500, what does that say about it's other capabilities? Me, I think more
such set-ups could sell lots of Amigas to aspiring, creative types. (Oh,
and to be fair, the local Atari ST people set up a similar venue at
GenCon). >> Ron Legro / Milwaukee
via WHAP!
Victor–
There are those that joke that in January, '92, the Amiga WILL be an
orphan if the new operating system doesn't ship….:)
Since you're the reporter (and looking for info), ask away. I might be
able to help with some aspects of your article. Of course, the REAL
Amigaheads are in Amigatech and Amigavendor.
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Jonathan,
I have to admit to some trepidation regarding the possible purchasde of an
Amiga. It doesn't sound like Commodore is doing such a great job. I
wouldn't want to buy into a future-orphan, even one with all the third
party support in the world.
–Vic
Think of it this way, Vic. All computers will be orphaned some day!, so
it's just a matter of time <g>
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Victor –
On the Amiga's possible "future-orphan" status: My gut feeling is that
becoming an orphan is a strong possibility for the Amiga. I know that
those are fightin' words to some, but I believe it. However, right now, it
is the only tool for many jobs, and the most cost-effective for others.
As long as CBM and the third party companies continue to make this true,
the Amiga will remain.
Also; the Amiga is the bread and butter product for CBM. Unless they
decide to become just another clone company, they will eventually be forced
to give the machine a complete overhaul; alternately, they could end up
pitching yet another platform. There were those that were waving CBM
goodbye back in '84/'85, before the Amiga. At that time, their big machine
was the C-64, which was becoming rapidly outclassed by other platforms.
Where would CBM be today if there had been no Amiga? (Probably where Atari
is….:))
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
I don't know about that. Didn't someone just post information from CBM's
annual report that said (in effect) that sales for the Amiga have been
declining whereas sales for the C-64 and PC line have been rising. CBM may
be becoming a clone company! In fact, I just saw that CBM markets a PC
laptop (and a pretty good looking one from the specs). If the Amiga is
there break and butter product, why don't they use some of the laptop
displays for an Amiga laptop.
– via Whap!
David –
Commodore's annual report reported a 20% _increase_ in Amiga sales, not a
decrease.
Jeff Schweiger
David,
You misinterpreted the annual report. Amiga sales _increased_ by 20% —
C64 sales increased by 30%.
-sja
Ooops, my mistake — that's the problem with second hand info.
That's kind of why I said that — I wanted to check what I thought I had
seen (at least that's kind of what went through my head).
Still its interesting that C64 sales are up more than the Amiga. What are
the percentages of Commodore business for the Amiga, C64, PCs, other stuff?
David
– via Whap!
David,
A Commodore official who spoke to our club once said that they just could
not imagine an Amiga without color, and color screens for laptops were just
not within reason pricewise.
Betty
A lot of people like to talk about "the Amiga becoming an orphan", but it
just ain't gonna happen unless Commodore goes belly up or completely drops
support for the product. There are 2-3 *million* Amiga's out on the
market. That's plenty enough to inspire new software development. The
Amiga belongs to a 32 bit processor line. So until 64 bit processors
become the standard, it's unlikely that the Amiga would become obsolete in
regards to processor speed. There are a few areas in which the Amiga OS is
deficient, but unlike other operating systems, the areas in which the Amiga
OS falls short can be fixed without a completely new OS. So it's unlikely
that the Amiga OS will become obsolete.
Amiga native graphics aren't really advancing fast enough. However, as
with the other systems, 3rd party vendors are filling that area pretty
well. So I don't expect Amiga graphics to become obsolete. Likewise
sound. Basically, there's nothing in the Amiga which would cause it's
demise due to it's being obsolete, which is the main cause for the
orphaning of the more popular 8 bit machines.
Which brings us to the other reason for machines becoming orphans: The
company which makes it either stops making it or goes out of business.
Commodore is showing no signs of going out of business. On the contrary,
it is gaining strength while the rest of the market is getting weaker due
to recession. And Commodore would be a fool to stop making the Amiga: it's
the biggest single piece of their bottom line.
So why are all those people saying the Amiga will become obsolete? You
got me. I see no reason for the Amiga to do so for years and years to
come. (OTOH, I *do* see MS DOS machines fading into non-existance, not
hardware wise, but rather because they'll be using either Windows which
includes itt's own DOS, or OS/2, or Pink, or whatever, instead. And Apple
seems to want to kill the Mac OS, and maybe the Mac hardware too, through
Pink…)
–>Steve Bennett
Steve–
I think the talk about "the Amiga becoming an orphan" is probably closer
to reality that you think. However, this possible reality is relative to
what you use the Amiga for.
As a professional platform, the Amiga has its greatest claim to fame
with graphics and video. However, both IBM (the company and the platform)
and Apple are making serious inroads into the Amiga's home turf. When
NewTek announces that they are going to relabel their OEM machines, or
going to make a Mac remote application to control the Amiga, many throw
their hands up in panic. There's a reason for that.
Fact is, the consumer looking for a multimedia/video/graphics machine
has lots of choices now. I still think the Amiga is the superior machine
in this niche, but there are already things that other machines will do
that the Amiga cannot. Eventually, something with a '486 or '586, IBM Risc
set, or souped up Motorola chip will be able to do everything the Amiga can
do through simple brute force. Combine that with the economies of scale
that PC's have, and its a lethal combination for our favorite machine.
This used to be offset by many of the native advantages the Amiga had, but
those are becoming eclipsed. Time marches on, and Commodore has not kept
up.
What does the Amiga really need? First of all, real support from CBM.
The Mac is where its at because of relentless marketing and R&D by Apple.
There is no reason why the Amiga can't be in the same place. I'm sure
you've heard the same moaning a million times before, but what about a
chipset that can handle 8-bit graphics? How about DIG? I'd sure like to
run ProPage on a Firecracker. How about scaleable font support? How about
AmigaDos 2.0? These are pretty key things, and no one sees them coming
soon enough. We don't even have high density disk drives!
I guess what I'm saying is the Amiga is really in trouble as an
applications machine. Can it survive on as a home computer, or a
recreational machine? Sure; the 500 still gives more bang for the buck
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
than anything in the price range, although the Super Nintendo could give it
a real run for the money. However, it is starting to fade as an
applications machine. I believe that eventually, most of the Amiga talent
is going to "go south". I've seen Dan Silva do 3D-Studio, and Martin Hash
has pretty much given up on the Amiga. Gold Disk is getting rave-ups in Mac
and Windows magazines. Would Imagine for Windows, or for the Mac sell
well? Yes. Would IP for Windows do well? I think so. How about a version
of DCTV that plugs into a VGA port?
If you read the last page of Infoworld, you've probably read Robert X.
Cringely's highly entertaining rumor column. In a recent column, he said
that English computer enthusiasts were likening the Apple-IBM agreement to
the Hitler-Stalin pact. He also asked, who is going to play the part of
Poland? My guess is Commodore…can the Amiga withstand the coming
Blitzkrieg?
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
People seem to keep missing a very important fact when making statements
like "The Amiga is in trouble as an applications machine" and the like. It
is true, I admit, that the Amiga has a small portion of that market in the
US. And possibly, the percentage of that market the Amiga has may have
even declined. But what nobody seems to recognize is that the number of
units being used for such applications is still increasing.
The decline in percentage of market share for applications (which I'm not
even sure exists: Most of the market analysis I've seen seems to ignore the
Amiga entirely, so it's hard to get correct figures…) can be attributed
to one thing only: The competition is selling more machines combined than
the Amiga is selling. It doesn't mean there is no growth within the Amiga
segment of the industry (on the contrary, it's growing quite well, thank
you…) and frankly, *that* is the only thing which counts as far as the
survival of the machine is concerned. If we were seeing a decline in the
number of Amigas sold during a time period, or the number of applications
sold in that time period, *then* and only then would I even begin to
consider that the Amiga was in any sort of danger. (And even then I'd be
skeptical considering that the entire rest of the computer industry is
suffering a bit of a slump.)
As for the things you mentioned as key requirements: 8 bit chipset support
is hardly necessary, DIG is a far more useful thing to have and I hope it's
implemented soon, and Amiga DOS 2.0 will be out Real Soon Now. <grin>
Actually, none of these are necessary for the Amiga's survival, but might
be needed if the Amiga wishes to gain ground in the business market in the
US.
Finally, as for Brute Force accomplishing what the Amiga can do, I'm
surprised you haven't considered what the same Brute Force, in the guise of
high speed 68030 and 68040 chips, can do in *addition* to the Amiga's basic
capabilities? Think about it.
–>Steve Bennett
Well said Steve. This 'rumour' about 2.0 not shipping in the US has really
changed the atmosphere in the msg base lately. While everyone should
continue to (have and) express thier concerns about where the Amiga stands
and where it is heading in the future, we should also remember several
things…
– First, the rumour was denied by Mr. Dionne. While I (we) may not be
happy with the timeframe it eventually takes, I (personally) have
ZERO (wel, maybe one <grin>) doubts about it's shipping.
– Again, while it's been a long time comming (2-3 years?), the 2.0 OS
is MUCH better than 1.3, the people at C= under Andy Finkel did a
fine job at both creating it and _debugging_ it. It maintains
compatibility beyond what one might reasonably expect.
– There has been a lot of effort (from a programming point of view) in
the new OS and CATS support to make it easier for large PC companies
to port thier products to our beloved platform (not that I personally
care much for 'ports', gimme native developed code any day). So we
may
start seeing more of the big name companies hopping on the bandwaggon.
– We, the people (sorry), have always been the best salespersons for
this
machine (unfortunately), and having the msg base full of nothing BUT
concerns/worries/pessimisam (sp) is not good PR and doesn't give a
true picture to 'on-lookers' (read: potential buyers).
– <insert everything Steve said here>
As a developer, I hear about comming products and developements (that I
can't discuss) and am very much looking forward to the upcomming DevCon to
get the latest information. While I'm always anxious for new technology on
the Amiga, the wheels grind slowly, and I wait. I see the machine for what
is is and what it can be and just don't see the same potential in an Intel
based platform.
In short, I'm anxious but happy, thank you. <stepping down>
Keith
Steve: What you said to Jonathon. Also: everyone oughta wonder why the C64
continues to thrive. It ain't the machine it used to be! Why? The software
folks (and to a lesser extent the hardware add-on people) have wrung more
out of the existing capabilities. That continues to happen with the Amiga
(witness HAM paint/animation programs that run in 1 meg on a stock machine;
would anyone who bought the original A1000 in '85 expected that?!). If C=
stopped making new Amigas TODAY, the aftermarket would thrive for a goodly
number of years to come. I'm still getting hardware upgrade offers for my
IBM PCjr, for god's sake! The Amigas will be around for awhile, folks.
Longer than some of us will need to have them, probably.
I'd like to counter your rebuttal:
The simple fact is that the Amiga has always sold on the premise that it
could do things other platforms could not. I think you'll have to agree
that this is rapidly becoming a shrinking set of features. While the Amiga
still holds on to a few – mostly due to third party support – it appears to
be a certainty that other platforms will due the same things, and more.
Nobody can tell me that doing video or animation is elegant on a PC – its
not. However, through the sheer brute force of fast CPU's and scales of
economy, other platforms will catch up and possibly exceed what we now
have.
This is the case, presently, in video and multimedia. I believe,
through short-sighted marketing and R&D, C= will eventually commit
Amigacide. A good example is the PVA, which never arrived. I first heard
of it years ago…had C= put this thing on the market, it would have been
huge! Of course, it would have been superceded by the Toaster, but at the
time it would have been a video/multimedia breakthrough. And, it would
have shown the kind of support by this platform's parent company that it
truly deserves.
I'm going to stand by my machine, but I think certain criticisms need
airing from time to time. I want technology that will make the other
platforms look sick again, and it just ain't here right now.
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Apple-IBM agreement, which if it does happen will not only hurt Commodore,
but it means abandonning the current line of 486-Mac that already exist.
Yes they are promising that the new machine will be compatible with Mac or
486 but Sys 7.0 already have compatiblity problem, what can you expect from
a RISC based entirely new computer and new OS. Current Mac owners must be
somewhat afraid of Apple's new line of computer thats suppose to be do out
next year anyway. To get to the point, computer industry moves so rapidly
that any computer at some time will be outdated and become orphaned.
SAD…… But for now its true that Commodore has to kick their funky
buttt and make some changes.
If not, we can easily buy Super-Nintendos for GAME and maybe a MACII
compatible super cheap machines from Zeos or Compaq…
THANX
– via Whap!
Difference between CBM and Apple that's now more important: CBM has a
good-selling "low-end" product (the C64) while Apple has given up on the
Apple II line, essentially. Apple therefore has had to knock down base
pricing on the Macs, making them more comparable in price (not features!)
with A500s. But I don't see that hurting CBM, which in some requests may
have better "legs" than Apple at this point. Apple HAD to join up with
enemy IBM, just like Gorby had to join with Yeltsin! Don't expect it to
last.
Mr. Isidore;
I think you understand me completely. Now, if only C= would kick their
"funky buttt" just a bit…
I hope that I don't ever feel the need for either a SuperNintendo
(really doubtful) or a MACII clone (especially when the real thing is bad
enough).
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Of course, Steve, one issue people often overlook re the "Amiga graphics
are lagging" issue is that the very NTSC video compatibility that is built
into the Amiga, which has been a great virtue and selling point for people
in the video niche, is also holding back expanded video modes. However, I
expect it will happen. Only trouble so far is that no 24-bit standard has
emerged. The CBM "Lowell" board won't run Workbench, even! These so far are
all niche products, not mass-market alternatives like VGA. But that will
come. Plus, I think it's likely there will be at least one more iteration
of the Amiga, in the form of a 68040 machine that may not be all that
backward-compatible but will offer all the goodies and power everyone now
claims to want.
Fill you with Amiga knowledge? That's a big request Vic because the Amiga
has quite a bit of complexity in it's hardware and multitasking OS. If you
are the techy type, then you might want to read some of the books on the
Amiga. One is the "Amiga 500/2000 Technical Reference Manual" from
Commodore. Another one is the "Amiga System Programmer's Guide" from
Abacus. Both give a pretty good technical description of how the Amiga
hardware and software works. There is also a videotape you can get from IDG
Communications (AmigaWorld Magazine) called "The Amiga Primer". From the
advertisement it is a 90 min tape that covers AmigaDos 2.0, AmigaVision,
CLI, Workbench, Peripherals, and utilities. I believe AmigaWorld is in the
process of making a video tape that covers the history of the Amiga from
it's inception to the present, but not sure exactly what it will cover. One
of the editors, Lou Wallace, gets on here occasionally and perhaps he can
give you some more details. To tell you all about the Amiga will take some
time here on CompuServe, so if you have some specific questions, I will try
to help as much as possible.
John (in beautiful downtown Walla Walla) – via Whap!
Hey John,
I used to live in Tacoma, not to far from you.
–Vic
Michael: You've hit on a good point in your reply to Victor. It's no wonder
Amiga owners get bummed out. We're three million-plus strong, but we're
always being compared to umpity-umpteen million users in the MS-DOS market
(of which I am also one!). Or, we're thought to own a "toy" computer
because it's cute, a whiz at games and simulations and relatively cheap;
then we're compared to the more "professional" and much more expensive
Mackingdom. In reality, the Amiga (and Atari and NExt and even the Mac,
plus a few others — isn't there an Archimedes system now in Europe?) are
niche-market machines. Given Amiga's ability to run other operating systems
(a feature I suspect will become more universal across platforms in the
next decade, just as high-res color graphics are catching on now), we
should think of the Amiga as a sort of super-set of MS-DOS machine. It can
run MS-DOS (and MS-DOS can't run AmigaDOS!), but it can also run its own,
more superior OS, as well as UNIX, et. al. So perhaps 90% of the computer
owners will always be able to get along with something less capable. That's
OK. "Ninety percent of everything is crap!" [Theodore Sturgeon]. Those who
need an elegant, powerful, inexpensive system — albeit one that may take
some self-education and diligence to customize — can choose an Amiga or
its equivalent. >> Ron Legro / Milwaukee
via WHAP!
Ron…
Now you're helping pu things in their proper perspective!
but really, "more superior" ? Ugh. My grammer checker just turned in
its resignation <g>
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Sorry about the ungrammatical posting. I write these replies fast and never
bother to invoke my multitasking grammar checker. You can get it quick, or
good, but not quick and good! >> Ron Legro / Milwaukee
via WHAP!
Ron… I was just teasing <g>… (re: grammer)
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Ron,
In my opinion, the biggest recommendation anyone could give the Amiga is
the loyalty of its users. Personally, I prefer people with strong opinions
and that seems to characterize many of the members of this forum. There
must be something special about a machine that inspires such devotion.
–Vic