#AmigaDOS 2.0 and CBM
124 messages in this thread
TITLE: CBM & 2.0
Over the past few days I have had a major flurry of phone calls because of
a rumor about CBM not releasing 2.0 to the existing A500/200/3000 base. It
is already rampent on Usenet, Genie and BIX, and I suspect it has been
mentioned here on CIS.
Because of the sheer number of people discussing it, I decided to call CBM
and get some form of comment. Today I have spoken with James Dionne, who
heads the US operations for CBM, and discussed these rumors. He is aware of
them, and gave me a statement on CBM's policy on 2.0, which will be printed
in an upcoming issue. However, he also stated I could post the informtion
on the nets, which I am now doing.
According to James Dionne, CBM *DOES* plan on releasing 2.0 for the
existing base of machines. He said that at the last WOA show he announced a
mid-July release date, but for a variety of reasons that date will not be
met. The current plan is to have enhancer kits available around the 1st of
October, about 6 weeks from now.
He also said new machines will have the 2.0 ROMs in the future, but a date
for implementing that had not yet been established.
This is all the information I have at this time, but I wanted to post it
because of the high interest level.
Lou Wallace Senior Editor, AmigaWorld Magazine
Lou,
Thanks much for the info.
Denny Atkin, Associate Editor
COMPUTE's Amiga Resource
Denny,
What does Lou's posting say for the reliability of your source?
Don
Don,
Lou's posting tells me that either Commodore changed their minds, or that
my sources had outdated information.
Don, I promised anonymity to the people I talked to, but if you knew who
they were, you would have believed them too. These aren't the kind of
people to "put one over" on everyone. My guess is that the situation was as
the notice said, and that something changed and these people didn't get
wind of it.
I can't say too much about who they were, but lets just say if the janitor
or a sales rep had told me this stuff, I wouldn't have believed it.
Denny Atkin, Associate Editor
COMPUTE's Amiga Resource
Don,
As a matter of fact, I talked to my source within Commodore again this
morning and he informed me that, while Dionne made that statement, as of
this week Mehdi Ali had once again cancelled the U.S. sales company's order
for 2.0 ROMs to stuff in the enhancer kits that are otherwise ready to
ship.
Remember that Mehdi is above Dionne. Apparently his office is the hold up
in 2.0 shipping, not CBM marketing. The U.S. sales company would have
Enhancers to ship if they could get ROMs.
I actually still think that _politely_ worded letters to Mehdi Ali in the
NY office of Commodore saying how excited you are about the opportunity to
purchase 2.0 for your 2000/500 couldn't hurt anything. (But to the folks
who said they would send flames, you'll hurt matters more than you'll help
them.) If everything really IS set for 2.0 enhancers to ship, then you've
wasted 5 minutes writing a letter. But if it's not, the letters may make a
big difference.
Do you have the address for the New York office? I want to write a
letter, and I'm sure other people here do too.
What's Ali's title anyway?
Steve
Steve,
I don't have the address. Hopefully someone here has CBM's annual report,
it's in there.
I believe Ali is CEO, but I'm not certain. In any case, from what I
gather he does most of the management of the company. He is the highest
paid (higher than Gould) which leads me to believe that Gould is paying him
to run the company while Gould "owns" it.
— Ethan
Steve –
Here's the address that you asked for:
Mehdi R. Ali
President
Commodore International Limited
375 Park Avenue
Suite 2109
New York, NY 10152
Jeff Schweiger
My letter is ready and goes out on Monday. OK folks, a show of hands of all
those writing Mr. Ali at Commodore International. (Mine's up – !)
John (in beautiful downtown Walla Walla) – via Whap!
Mine goes out on Monday…
*** jd
Keep in mind that Commodore bought Amiga Corp when it could no
longer pay its debts. Hence, had no one bought it we wouldn't have an
Amiga.
— Ethan
John,
I wrote two letters. One to Dionne and one to Ali. Both were mailed
last week.
….Mark
I'm writing. So, October is the new "release date" huh? I was going to
give them until the end of September (one year after the originial "release
date" for the 2000), but I suppose I can give them until the end of
October.
I hate Windows, I love my Amiga, but I'm running out of options, fast.
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
Jane, I know how you feel. The Amiga is a great computer, despite the
attempts from CBM to kill the market. The "October" date I mentioned was
the one Lou Wallace quoted from his conversation with Jim Dione. With all
the nasty rumors floating around, I would be surprised to see a 500/2000
2.0 Enchancer package before Christmas.
John (in beautiful downtown Walla Walla) – via Whap!
Thanks, Jeff.
I'll be dropping that letter in the mail today.
Steve
If they don't have 100K quantities of ROMs on order, there is no way to get
new 2.0 machines out (other than A3000s) in time for the Christmas market.
Its too late. Enhancer packages, yes. New production, No.
I guess DeathCon will be a real wake.
-Greg
– via Whap!
Denny,
Ok…explain to me where Mehdi and Dionne fit into the Commodore
organization just so I can get a clue as to what's going on.
BTW, I spoke to my dealer yesterday. He had been in touch with the
sales rep earlier in the week. When he asked the status of 2.0, the sales
rep's information was about 6 months out of date. IF this rep is
indicative of what CBM has out in the field (and I have no idea if he
is/isn't)…then it's no wonder the top brass doesn't think there's any
demand.
Don
Don,
I don't have the CBM annual report here, but Ali is right up there with
Irving Gould, heading up Commodore International Ltd., the parent company.
Dionne is just president of the U.S. sales company.
Denny Atkin, Associate Editor
COMPUTE's Amiga Resource
Dionne is what Copperman was, and what Toy was, etc., …, et al.
He manages the United States operations in terms of sales and marketing but
he has no effect on R&D.
— Ethan
Ethan,
Ok, as the head of CBM (the US marketing arm of Commodore) then
according to what we've been told in the past…he (Dionne) has total
control of what products CBM will market from the choices available from
Commodore Int'l.
IF that's still true, then either no one gets 2.0, or it's made
available to each marketing arm…and thus CBM gets to decide if 2.0 is or
isn't available in the US.
So why would Ali get involved? That's the strange part of this
story. Why should he care if Dionne wants to sell 2.0? Surely Commodore
is going to produce well over a million 2.0 ROMs for elsewhere in the
world…so what's the big deal running the line X days more (probably one
or two) to produce enough for the US market?
The ONLY thing that makes even the slightest bit of sense is that
for over a year now….purchasers of A2000s were to have been told they
would get a free upgrade to 2.0 and Ali may be concerned about the cost of
keeping that promise; although, on the scale of things…that's really a
drop in the bucket. Of course, if 2.0 isn't made available..then they
don't have to keep that promise.
But even that doesn't make much sense…considering the cost of the
free upgrades is CBM's responsibility…not Commodore Int'ls.
Could it be that CBM is losing significant $$ that are "covered" by
the success of the other Commodore marketing arms?
Ah well…I guess time will tell.
Don
I think you misunderstood what I said, since your message doesn't
seem to relate to what I said. Since Denny said that the nixing of enhancer
kits came from Ali, not Dionne, most likely Commodore Intl (the one that
chooses what gets produced in the first place) has decided not to make
enhancer kits available until they can outproduce new unit sales.
— Ethan
P.S. I do agree that Ali may be concerned about the cost of free upgrades.
That simply says to me that upgrades are lower on the priority list than
putting the chip in new machines.
Who has said CBM is putting 2.0 ROMS in new machines other than A3000s?
Dionne's quote seems to indicate that there hasn't been a decision to do
so!
-Greg
– via Whap!
I guess it is POSSIBLE that Commodore will not put 2.0 ROMs in
anything but 3000s, but that brings up another question: Why can developers
currently buy 2.0 ROMs for the 500 and 2000? Just so that developers can
stick them in their machines? Sounds fishy to me. 😎
— Ethan
P.S. Before someone tries to nail me on breaking non-disclosure, this
information has been made public knowledge by Marc Barrett discussing
problems with his 2.0 ROMs on his A500. This discussion occurred on Usenet.
GT>> Who has said CBM is putting 2.0 ROMS in new machines other than
A3000s? GT>> Dionne's quote seems to indicate that there hasn't been a
decision to GT>> do so!
Well, if they didn't that sure would create a problem for developer's. If
I was a major company, and a massively different O/S was only available for
a tiny percentage of the Amigas, I'd find it difficult to justify writing
code to take advantage of the new O/S.
Especially if it meant not being compatible with the majority of the
computers out there.
However, I have a feeling that someone would figure out a way to put them
in the 500/2000 anyway. After all, look at all the A500 users making (or
causing to be made) the minor mods to their machines to take advantage of
the 1 meg agnus. And there's the fine Rejuvinator for the A1000, enabling
owners of the long abandoned machine to take advantage of the new stuff.
(Something I distinctly remember reading a CBM quote saying "It can't be
done".) <g>
Ethan,
Humm…you must not be reading the same message thread I'm reading.
NOTHING was said about holding up enhancer kits until new production gets
their hands on the chips. What was said was that Ali nix'ed the release in
the US only.
Yes…Commodore Int'l gets to decide what products it'll make, but
the individual marketing areas (such as CBM .. the US marketing arm of
Commodore Int'l) gets to pick which of those products offered by Commodore
Int'l it will pickup and sell.
That's according to messages from Commodore Int'l and CBM employees
here on CIS in the past. They also said there were very few "must carry"
items and each marketing area had absolute control over the products they'd
sell (other than the few must carry items).
Going from 'must carry' to 'can't carry' is a major change in
philosophy.
Don
Don, you and I haven't been reading the same thread Or at least
you missed my earlier messages. I said that I am GUESSING as to a possible
explanation for what is going on. I think it is the only rational
explanation, and as the only alternatives here are: a) totally nuts b)
totally rumor
I think I'll hope that my explanation is true. No distrust of Denny
intended, but this is Ethan->Denny->2-anonymous-engineers->
who-knows->Mehdi Ali. How did the engineers involved get their info.? Too
many questions, too many opportunities for what is really^y happening to be
garbled.
— Ethan
Don, my weather knee is throbbing 🙂 Too much strangeness all at once.
Any long term stock gurus or business watchers around here? What does it
mean when a lot of cost-cutting measures are taken within a fairly short
period of time?
Umm. No, not "cost-cutting". Perhaps more like temporary methods of
holding money in reserve. Add in the higher European, and PC clone, sale
ratios. And the fact that the CDTV department has gained people lately.
All coincidence? A buy-out? A cooperative venture with a Japanese
company? New model? A reorganization? A change in market emphasis? Or
just business? I've got huge vibes that something is happening. Neither
good nor bad vibes, I hasten to add. Just a really strong feeling that a
_change_ of some kind is coming.
Of course, it could simply be that my knee is confusing Commodore business
practices with Hurricane Bob, who kept us from going down to the Outer
Banks this weekend <grin>. – kev
Kev,
The vibes I'm getting are not good…so I'll keep them to myself
for the time being. No sense stirring things up just because I've got this
"hinky" feeling about the future.
BTW…it's not based on any secret or privledged information.
Don
Would these bad vibes of yours recommend that I go ahead and get a 3000
through the Power Up deal?
Nick
As I've said before. If 85% of the Amiga market is Europe, and Europe is an
A500/games market, and 2.0 breaks all that badly written software (Euro Sw
is much more prone to breakage than US developed SW), then you might want
to hold up the 2.0 release to keep your biggest (and nearly only) market
happy. Even if you release 2.0 only in North America, then nearly all new
US titles would be unplayable in europe, hurting their greatest market.
That last sentance may not be entirely true (US develpers may still try to
provide dual OS compatibility), but from a perception standpoint of
management of the european subsidiaries it may be a very real fear –
especially since the early releases were much more incompatible than the
newer ones. This may have caused built-in bias against 2.0, no matter how
compatible the 2.04 release is.
So in conclusion, I tend to agree with your question that CBM is being hurt
to keep other marketing arms happy.
-Greg
– via Whap!
If that's true, why not produce a WCS that's 2.0 compatible and make it
easy for users to switch back and forth between 1.3 and 2.0 (not
necessarily nice, but easy). I would think that the other (at least
potential) "cash cow" for Commodore is the alliance with the Toaster and
that, therefore, they would want to do everything they could to keep that
on the "cutting edge" and prevent other non-CBM related development from
destroying the Toaster advantage. AmigaDOS 2.0 should be much more stable,
so there should be less visits from the GURU that would destroy a potential
market's confidence in the product.
– via Whap!
A replacement WCS that runs 2.0 is basically what the Rejuvenator is!
-Greg
BTW, I haven't gotten the impression that 2.0 is breaking too many
games. It is hard for me to tell, since on my 3000 the problem could be the
030 or it could be 2.0, but I have very few games which require me to boot
down into 2.0 to use.
— Ethan
Notice I said Euro-games are more prone 'cause the developers over there
don't believe in following the rules if it means one more clock cycle to
call a function the correct way. I also said that there may be a PERCEPTION
of that from the previous releases which were much more buggy and
incompatible.
-Greg
Greg,
I tend to think there is much truth to your pereception of the 2.0
situation… Why else would Dionne say "yes" to 2.0 and Ali nix the
decison? Dionne's job is manage the US… Ali's concern is global.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Well, I've been looking forward to 2.0 myself. And if CBM follows through
with the free 2.0 upgrade, I have a three month old 2000 system waiting for
it. (The original purchaser would have to get it though as I've only had it
for a few days… complete with the new GVP '030/33 combo board.
But even if I had to PAY for the upgrade (like I had to do for my A1000,
starting with version 1.1) I'd do so and gladly..
Denny, what is the address of the CBM New York office so I can write my
letter. And do we address it in care of Mehdi Ali? I've already got my
letter written, just need to fill in the blanks.
John (in beautiful downtown Walla Walla) – via Whap!
Denny,
Ok…I agree you should keep your sources confidential…no problem
there. And obviously, decisions change. So that leaves the question…how
old was your information when you posted it?
Don
Don,
As I heard it, the initial ROM order cancellation was Aug. 7 or so. Another
order was cancelled this week.
Weird things are going on at CBM. (Now there's news. 😉
I do think letters to Ali couldn't hurt. But I don't really want to go down
in history as "the guy who started the 2.0 uproar," so I'm going to kind of
mellow out and see what CBM does over the next month or so. Hopefully
they'll get all of this straightened out.
Something that Don said got me thinking… maybe everyone (in addition
to writing in directly to Ali) could/should stop by thier local dealer once
or twice a week and ask about 2.0 enhancer packages.
If enough DEALERS start calling C= enquiring about a time frame, maybe
C= will realize that there IS a 'demand' for 2.0 in the US (if they could
really be so niave (sp) to think there isn't).
Keith
Very good point, Keith.
>> He also said new machines will have the 2.0 ROMs in the future, but a
date for implementing that had not yet been established.
Typical bureaucratic nonsense. If they don't know NOW whether or not new
A500s and A2000s will have 2.0, then you can forget Christmas for 2.0,
because the decision needs to be made ASAP for production to get the new
ROMs made in vast quantity, to put them into machines, and to get the
manuals;etc. ready to be in distribution channels for early December(I bet
they have warehouses full of A500s with 1.3 ROMs in them and that they
don't want to have to tear them apart to put 2.0 ROMS and disks in).
Who will want a 2.0 enhancer if new machines are not being made with it and
it breaks a percentage of their software? Some Developers who have their
blind faith unbroken and a few 'gotta have the latest' techies is all.
Under this scenario, it is quite likely that there won't be a market for
2.0 enhancer packages (a few hundred or a thousand would be near the
number) or 2.0 software from third party developers. The number of A3000s
out there does not justify the expense of developing 2.0 software. Only the
promise of hundreds of thousands of machines with 2.0 makes it worthwhile.
It is probably too late to get foreign manufacturers to commit to 100K+
parts for Nov-Dec delivery anyway if they don't have an active production
agreement in hand.
This is new information as Denny's postings only covered the future of the
2.0 enhancer. This information indicates that 2.0 ROMs in new machines is
what is really in danger.
-Greg
– via Whap!
Greg,
If you had lots of machines on the dealer shelves and in the warehouse with
1.3 ROMS and you knew that in a few weeks the new machines would have 2.0
ROMS, would YOU make an announcement to that effect? How many of the old
machines do you think you'd sell between now and then?
Betty
Betty,
I seem to recall a discussion about a year ago about Commodore
promising purchasers of A2000's free upgrades to 2.0 and ECS when it became
available.
If my memory is correct, then it should make no difference if
current stock as 1.3 ROMs in them as the move to 2.0 will be free.
For others reading this…I'm NOT saying there is a free upgrade
policy, I'm just saying that I recall one being discussed here a year ago
and the impression I got was that there was such a policy. I could easily
be wrong.
I also don't recall any discussion about A500's in a similar vein.
Don
No I don't think you are wrong Don. When I showed a friend of mine a copy
of Denny's message, he commented that he had a copy of the annoucement that
purchasers of A2000's would receive free upgrades to 2.0 and ECS. I'm not
sure how long this was offered, but if he has a copy of the announcement, I
would think CBM would have to honor it.
John (in beautiful downtown Walla Walla) – via Whap!
I had not thought of it in months, but I believe you are right. All who
purchased after the A3000 was announced, if I remember correctly. Quite a
while ago, anyway.
Betty
What about the promise to come out with a special version of 2.0 that would
be half WCS and half fast ram based? With the things happening to the
development team, I seriously doubt that promise will be carried out
either.
-Greg
– via Whap!
Greg,
I hadn't heard that promise, I presume it would have applied to
A1000's so they could also use 2.0 while still using the original WCS
daughterboard.
Yes, I would presume that too is gone by the wayside.
Don
And what is happening with the development team? (You DID bring it
up, after all. 8) I understand if you can't say specifically. I had thought
that almost all of the damage was focused around the Unix team.
— Ethan
Ethan,
You read usenet…the story there is that the UNIX team lost ONE
person when all was said and done.
Don
No Don, that's not the story. Unix lost one PROGRAMMER. They also
lost the manager and 2 documentation people. That leaves four of the
original eight. Two were shifted to AmigaDOS and one is working on a
contractual basis.
— Ethan
It was announced that Andy went to CDTV project development and before the
layoffs I heard on the grapevine that Bryce was leaving in September to go
back to school. That might have changed after the putch.
-Greg
– via Whap!
Bryce has sent me mail since the layoffs saying that indeed he was leaving
and that he could not give me any real good reason to "feel good" about CBM
at this time.
-mark=
Thanks for the update.
-Greg
– via Whap!
2.0 has been near for a long time. It's not like manufacturing saying: 'You
guys just got 2.0 finished? OH shucky darn. We just made another million
1.3 machines!'. Why would CBM be caught with a lot of warehoused 1.3
machines unless they had not been planning to release 2.0 in them for a
long time? Like maybe Europe said they didn't want it a long time ago?
Perhaps sales have been so bad that A500s just stacked up?
In that case why not an A3000 Power-DOWN promotion? Turn in your A3000 and
$50 and they'll give you two A500s. One with 1.2 and one with 1.3 so you'll
be completely compatible with all Euro Game software!
-Greg
– via Whap!
From what I hear, I don't WANT the roms in my 3000. The technical folks on
bix seem to concur that if you have enough memory, ROM is NOT the way to
go. (Don't ask me why–speed was one issue I recall.)
Jim,
Yes…generally RAM is faster than a ROM, but with an A3000, you
can copy the ROM into RAM and run from RAM via the MMU. It's essentially
what you're doing now with the 1.3/2.0 option on cold boot on your A3000.
However, copying from ROM into RAM is significantly faster than
copying from the HD into RAM. Thus, having a ROM'ed OS is a "win" in that
respect.
The "loss" is, of course, the loss of the RAM that will now be used
instead of the ROM. For 3000 owners..that's not a real big deal since
that's what you're currently doing.
Don
Jim,
Note that if you ever get a 68040 board, you'll HAVE to have ROMs in your
3000. The SuperKickstart technique won't work with the 040's MMU.
Denny Atkin, Associate Editor
COMPUTE's Amiga Resource
Just the content of this thread tells a lot about CBM. The fact that they
thought of witholding a major system upgrade from a substantial part of
their market, shows that they are out of touch with reality. I love my
Amiga, (as my wife will attest to) <grin> but with the emotional highs and
low that C= puts its users through I am seriously considering abandoning
this platform to deal with something that may not be as advanced but is
much more stable. The only thing stopping me at this point is the serious
software investment that I have. I am sick and tired of being sick and
tired of C= wishy washy attitude and not knowing what their direction of
the month is. They need a top managment type to come down here to the
`nets' to put their finger on the pulse of their market. What can WE do
that would have any effect on the direction of our market? Letters to C=
seem to have no effect. The only marketing + that I have seen come from
them is the Commodore Express.
..disgruntled Steve
Whap!ping from beautiful coastal South Carolina
Steve,
Working for a magazine that deals with MS-DOS machines a lot, I can say
that market has big problems of its own. What will the OS be next year?
MS-DOS 5? Windows 3.1? Windows NT? OS/2 2.0? Pink? (And they have such
unfriendly equipment…)
The only market that seems relatively "stable" from an OS standpoint is the
Mac market. And those guys are having to deal with TrueType vs. PostScript
and fun stuff like that. And even if I could afford the machine, I
couldn't afford the software… And System 7 is still goofy. They won't
have a real OS for a year or more.
We know the Amiga, so things seem goofy in our market. And they are. But
the other platforms have their own funky problems. Lucky for Commodore they
have great hardware. A clone company with this kind of management would be
ancient history.
Denny,
Complain all you want about the MS-DOS market. At least they _will_
have an OS next year, and yes, I think DOS 5 and Windows will Meld, but not
with 3.1, more likely with DOS 6.
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
Jane,
I use Windows every day. I'd rather use Kickstart 1.1. Seriously. 4MB and a
16 MHz machine and I can't multitask 3 applications…
Yeah, Denny, I know Windows 3.0 is, shall we say, not the greatest
multitasking platform in the world. I don't trust it, but I haven't had
any problems with the DOS 5 task swapping, and people are coming out with
smaller programs to fit in memory (Symantec) for stuff like WordProcessing
and Project Scheduling. And I just learned today that the new system we'll
be programming at work will be programmed with Visual BASIC and run under
Windows…
Like I said, I'm fast running out of options.
— Jane H. (Writing, it's easier read than done.)
>I use Windows every day. I'd rather use KickStart 1.1.
If it wasn't for Solitaire, there would be no reason for Windows to
continue to exist. Sign this reply from…
Another happy Windows and DOS 5 user (sarcastic) who found out he can't use
EMM386 and Windows standard mode together… 🙁
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
DA>> I use Windows every day. I'd rather use Kickstart 1.1. Seriously. 4MB
DA>> and a 16 MHz machine and I can't multitask 3 applications…
However, if you switched to Desqview on that Intel Box, you could multitask
much more than 3. I have a 16 Mhz '386 at home with 2 meg of ram, and
currently multitask two bbs nodes plus do my local work.
> However, if you switched to Desqview on that Intel Box…
I can't, because Desqview won't work on my LAN. In fact, that's the
problem with MS-DULL; it takes a cold fusion physicist to figure out how to
get all the kludges to work properly just to get a system that still
underperforms the Amiga…
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
TM>> I can't, because Desqview won't work on my LAN.
??? Are you trying to run Desqview on a server? If so, that's a true no-no.
But the same thing applies to Windows 3.0, at least under Lantastic from
Artisoft.
However, I have setup both Desqview and Windows workstations under
Lantastic and have had NO problems. I DO know that Windows also works well
under Novell, and though I'm not 100% sure of Desqview, I believe there
should be no problems.
I think the problems that occur when running Windows or DV on a server stem
from basically the two multitasking (or task switching, however you want to
refer to it) systems conflict.
Denny: You're right about 4 megs and a 16Mhz machine being below the
Windows optimum threshold. But believe me; it flies on a '486-33 with 8
megs. And guess what; that combo is under $3000 with good monitor. Why,
why, why can't the Amiga advance? All of our arguments about the
superiority of the Amiga held true for years, but as has been discussed
repeatedly on this forum and others, it does not hold true anymore.
Price/performance was our main argument. Do you honestly believe that we
still hold that edge?
George
– via Whap!
>" A clone company with this kind of management would be ancient history."
Who was it who said, "Sometimes I think Commodore just PRETENDS to
market computers." … Or something like that but more pithy.
CBM has made $ on the Amiga very strictly in SPITE of itself.
————————————————————TL———-
Denny: I don't want to be confused with being an Amiga basher, but we
really need to be aware of the advances on the other platforms. When I
first bought my Amiga, I dazzled all my IBM type friends with the color and
the multitasking. They just couldn't believe that I could do more than one
task at a time. Now, they can multitask as well as we can. Windows is
nowhere as easy to set up but once you get it finetuned, it does work.
Windows 3.1, if it lives up to advance information, will be a tough nut to
crack. I will never give up my Ami, but I don't think I'll be investing
much more into the Amiga platform until I get a better feel for what CBM
has in mind for us. If they truly abandon the Amiga (I don't know why they
would unless they are losing money), then most development would cease.
Part of the fun of owning a computer is trying new hardware and software.
George
– via Whap!
If CBM were to abandon the Amiga, the company would fold. Their 8 bit
machines are dead, and their DOS machines only sell in Europe (and I'm not
even sure if they still sell well over there).
Actually, they've been _trying_ to kill off the C64, but it's sales
increased by 30% last year (not that the 64 could carry the company, just
clarifying it's status).
Keith
Steve,
The only problem is – people using those other platforms (really interested
users who find out about what is really going on) usually have just as many
complaints about THEM as we have about Commodore. Or so it seems to me as
I look around CIS, Usenet, and other places where I get in contact with
avid users of other computers.
Betty
Betty:
This seems as agood a place as any to put in my two cents worth…
I agree with you, that other platforms have their problems with operating
systems and no one really knows what the future will hold for MSDOS,
AMIGADOS or the MAC operating system.
What we all tend to forget is that we are participants as quinea pigs in a
fledgling industry called personal computing. We are the first generation
of true home users, and the hardware and asoftware technology continues to
improve at ever escalating speeds, making obsolete today what was yesterday
state-of-the-art. I wouldn't be surprised if one hundred years from now,
this period of time is referred to as "The Computer Revoloution", in much
the same way as the turn of the century is called "The Indudstrial
Revoloution".
The Amiga has only been on the market for six years. I've got socks older
than that. The PC is really only ten years old, and already its death toll
may have sounded with the IBM/APPLE agreement.
It's tough to keep things in perspective when you're living throught it.<g>
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Did you know that the very first 4-function calculators were sold about
1970? And the very first PET/TRS80/Apple computers in 1977? It really is
a new industry.
Betty
YES, YES and DOUBLY YES! Exactly my point. Because we are living through
it, our perception of computing is terribly skewed. I don't think that
many here see the forest for the trees.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael:
And of course don't forget the first generation of home computers, I had a
NorthStar that was built from a KIT! (not by me), and an Imsai with all
it's flickering lights! I remember people condemning the IBM-PC because it
had it's processor on the motherboard, and didn't have any S-100 slots in
it!
-Mike Schiller
In sunny Fort Lauderdale
> NothStar that was built from a kit…an an Imsai…
Well, if C= can somehow extract its head out of… errr… the sand…,
maybe it won't go the way of NorthStar or Imsai.
Over the flight pattern… – via Whap!
Betty: You're absolutely right about all platforms having their problems.
My question is: What happened to our Price/Performance edge? I just can't
see it anymore. We are paying as much or MORE for comparable performance.
The PC world is just too big. New innovations seem to appear almost daily.
How can we possibly survive, when CBM won't or can't be honest with us? As
you can guess, I'm getting pretty disillusioned. I love my Amiga, but I'm
successfully building a case for going PC on my next upgrade. PC's now
have the Price/Performance edge IMHO.
George
– via Whap!
I cant let this pass….I believe that the Amiga is a better platform
because the multitasking is HARDWARE based to software based as with the
Windows in the PC area.
I went to the loca;l PC Power store to see a demo of Harvard
Graphics, which seems to be given top billing in the MAC/PC mags.It had a
very accessable "charts" setup and could generate very good looking charts.
BUT!!!!!!! the guy took several JUST to find the Anim. demo because of
its funny command entry to find the directory…..ie there was no NO Icon
type requester that we have become so used to in DPaint etc.It was funny to
watch this bloke struggle in front of a "potential" client,trying to
remember were/how to get to it.The animation ability when he finally found
it was pitifull compared to even a simple DP Anim brush…..and sslllllooow
They want just over a $1000.00 for it here.
You all seem to be more concerned with the company than the
better product that they sell.
The PC/Windows platform just is not up to it for my $$$$!
RGDS Laurie Carroll
Laurie:
I knew I probably shouldn't have written a message that appeared to be an
Amiga-flame, because I didn't intend for it to be. Witness the fact that I
am sitting here in front of my Amiga typing this note to you. I AM
concerned with Commodore because what happens to the Amiga is directly a
result of their actions. It seems so unprofessional for these types of
rumors to even be circulating. Dionne says yes, Ali says no. Dionne says
yes again, Ali says no again. After all the hoopla and promises of 2.0,
now it seems that marketing decisions have yet to be made. I've been
standing here with the $$$$ in my hand to buy a 3000. The only thing
holding me up, is wondering what CBM has up their sleeves. Remember the
1000 plus 1000 deal that was immediately followed by the 3000 release. HP
did the same thing with the Deskjet 500. I've been wondering what
surprises are in store. I don't want to say "Gee, I wish I'd known that
CBM was going to release that a week after the Power-Up was discontinued."
I want to make sure that my computer investment is sound, and that
develpment carries on for the Amiga. I am not a Toaster user, so that end
of the market means nothing to me, other than I think its fun to look at. I
use my machine for applications, telecommunications, graphics, and games in
that order. BTW, it sounds like your local PC salesperson needs to go back
to Computer101 so he doesn't embarrass himself like that again. See ya
later.
George
– via Whap!
Its good to jump up on the 'ol soap box and beat me chest occasionally..
🙂 Laurie
Laurie … without wishing to shoot your argument down, the Amiga
multitasking is not hardware based, but is software based. Only with true
MMUs can hardware multitasking really work, and the Amigas which have
established this very efficient multi-tasking operating system do not have
such a facility.
The reason that it is better than Windows is that it is built into the
operating system at a very low level. The Amiga has a multi-tasking
executive, written in very tight assembly code, which is the core of the
operating system … whereas Windows is an application program that is
built on top of an existing operating system.
What _is_ hardware based is the Amiga's very efficient graphics capability
provided by the specialised graphics co-processor. Tasks may use this, they
may not … it certainly makes graphics work like lightning at times …
but it is nothing to do with the multi-tasking.
In the end, the Amiga has two features which set it apart … it has the
co-processor for fast graphics work and a well-written multi-tasking
executive which is at the heart of the operating system.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
Well put. And having a well-written multi-tasking executive provides the
Amiga with _great_ potential. Programs (aside from games) have been
written from the beggining on the Amiga with multi-tasking in mind, using
the (argueably) well-designed OS interface (ie. libraries, devices, etc)
which makes C='s job all that much easier to move us along to new
technology.
Imagine the poor folks – now 'realizing' that Multi-tasking is a 'good
thing' desperately scrambling to get any kind of functional (read: useable)
'hack' tacked on top of MS-DOS.
"What? I can't bang the hardware directly?"
Keith
KY>> Imagine the poor folks – now 'realizing' that Multi-tasking is a 'good
KY>> thing' desperately scrambling to get any kind of functional (read:
KY>> useable) 'hack' tacked on top of MS-DOS.
Very true… of course, I find Desqview a VERY usable hack on my '386. But
I'm seriously considering a switch to OS/2 when 2.0 comes out (geesh
ANOTHER computer experiencing a long wait for a 2.0 release of it's OS).
Under OS/2, I'll have multithreaded multitasking written in at the lowest
levels, be able to multitask what? 11 DOS applications at once, and even
run Windows 3.X programs.
And true, I'll need a fast '386 with at LEAST 4 meg of ram to start doing
this. But then again, to get my Amiga up to the speed of my '386 and to
multitask more than two of my applications, I had to go to a 5 meg ram '030
based Amiga. Where's the difference?
BTW, for someone who has only used a 68000 based Amiga, it may seem fast
enough and a 33 Mhz '030 system may seem like lightning… but it is really
just on a par with my 25 Mhz '386 (Ok, potentially twice as fast… but
who's counting.. <G>)
Mike,
In one sence though the Amiga's hardware does have something to do with
multitasking. By handling graphics, sound and animation with the
coprocessers, it lowers the overhead on the CPU, giving the machine more
time to handle as the various bookkeeping neccessary for multitasking.
<<< Michael Shea >>>>
<<< 76665,3360 >>>>
What Laurie probably meant by saying that the Amiga's multitasking is
hardware based is that there are multiple execution units in the computer.
Paula controls sound and disk access, Agnus has the blitter and DMA
sections in it, the CPU runs your programs. So you can see, at the low
level, the multitasking IS based in hardware. All of these chips can be
doing different things at the same time. Still amazes me to this day. How
PC users stand their machines is beyond me, and I owned a PC for 2 years!
Darin
(My personal opinions don't reflect the opinions of Precision/SPC)
– via Whap!
Hmmm. I think it'd be better to say that the multitasking is "hardware
assisted", rather than "hardware based".
Virtually all computers have hardware assistance: keyboard cpus, disk
controllers, DMA channels, serial chips, timers, video display chips, etc.
All of these are examples of the "multiple execution units" which you spoke
of.
The Amiga simply has some additional ones (copper, blitter, audio) which
are very helpful during audio/video output… and at least one missing
common one (a real floppy disk controller – instead the cpu must do its
job).
kevin
Yes, the hardware enhances the Amiga, but the multi-tasking doesn't rely on
it.
.. and the PC has hardware to assist it too.
Mike (Whapping from the UK)
>> Rdill amazes me to this day. How PC users stand their machines is beyond
>> me, and I owned a PC for 2 years!
Ah yes, but what processor and speed did you run? Chances are, that you had
at most a 12 Mhz AT class machine with 1 meg of ram and perhaps an EGA
monitor. I used to have one of those, and for what I paid for it four
years ago, will now buy a 33 Mhz '386 with the best VGA going and several
megs of ram.
As I write this, I'm doing it on a lowly 16 Mhz '386sx with 2 meg of ram
(out of date for two years) with VGA that sells new for about $1,200 with
an 85 meg HD!. Compare that to the price of a bare A2000.
I'm running MS-DOS 4.01 and Desqview '386. In two other windows are two
nodes of my Wildcat! BBS of which someone is logged onto one of them and is
downloading a file at 230 cps, while on the other node, someone is playing
a game. The BBS files are on a 10 Mhz XT about four feet away which acts
as a node and a file server BOTH, running Artisoft's Lantastic Network
using standard $100 Ethernet cards. A two computer network like this for
cards and software runs under $600.
Oh.. I always thought that the Amiga with its various "chips" Agnus etc..
set it apart from the PC's and I based my statement on that.
Mike did you get that big message about Whap! ? Laurie
It's nice to see some positive remarks, lest we loose the sight of the
forest for the trees. Been a lot of trees springing up lately.
Keith
George–
I must add more to this.
I finished, some time ago, after a few months, a completely
Amiga-animated video presentation about 401(k) plans. It has about 20-25
minutes of animation in it, and it looks fairly good.
Our company has this open house, and some company rep comes to my area
to take a look at the video. She asks me if I had used this great new
program she had heard her dealer talking about, called Harvard Graphics…
My reply was this: If you *TRIED* to do this video or anything like it
with Harvard Graphics, you'd be severely disappointed. It cannot be done.
I never saw anyone become so deflated before…
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Yes! Yes! (loud applause in background) 🙂 Laurie e/exit
There are better programs that Harvard Graphics which are easier to use.
And even if our Amiga's multitasking is aided by hardware, it can easily be
made up by using a more powerful engine.
And since a dos machine running a 33 Mhz '486, VGA, 85 meg 18ms HD, 8 meg
of ram and Windows 3.0 will (gag) run rings around an Amiga of the same
price (at our local Las Vegas Dealers, an Amiga 2000, with a populated
8-up! board, one floppy and a 1950 monitor costs the same as that '486 and
with the '486 you get a hard drive!), well, you tell me which is the better
deal for most people?
And OK, the animation and paint software is better for the Amiga. Honestly
now, unless you make your living doing computer graphics, is that REALLY
the reason to buy a certain type of computer?
And I too love the Amiga. Bought my first one in '86 and still have it!
And in addtion to the A1000, I also have an A500 and an A2000 (configured
with a GVP 33 Mhz '030, 5 meg ram and 200 meg of HD, along with a CD-ROM).
What do I use them for? 3 things, downloading files for our bbs, playing
games and checking out files for our BBS (Lharc is FAST on a 33 Mhz
machine!).
I use my Mac Plus for checking out/downloading files as well. But for 99%
of my WORK, and my programming, it's my '386 that almost never gets turned
off.
I get this mental image of two joggers….. one (Amiga) out for a nice
Sunda sunday jog and beside him this other bloke (386) keeping up with him
but at a furious pace, running hell for leather just to keep up. 🙂 Laurie
I like your idea about getting a top management type on CI$ to check it
out. I wonder how one could be talked into it. Let's get Ali on Compuserve!
That way we can find out exactly what's going on.
– via Whap!
Steve: I have to agree with your sentiments. I've got an A500 that I've
upgraded and expanded about as far as is practical. I've wanted to
purchase the A3000 for months, but just can't make the decision. The money
is there, and has been. I just don't know where the Amiga is going. The
Power-Up deal is nowhere near the "great deal" that people think it is.
CPU's, harddrives, memory, and monitors have actually come down more in
price than Commodore is allowing on the Power-Up. They are actually just
dropping the price of the machines (as are ALL platforms) to reflect lower
component costs, and market directions. The latest rumors re: not
releasing 2.0 for the rest of us just makes me more nervous than ever. The
fact that CBM has led developers and the public to believe that it was
forthcoming, really reaks of shady business practices. I can't even begin
to imagine how many man-hours have been spent developing for this OS.
We all like to think that the Amiga is the ONLY platform. Well, I'm sure
that lots of us know differently. I use a 486-33 at work with Windows. I
prefer the look and feel of the Amiga, but Windows is getting easier to
take—–AND no matter what everybody says, it DOES multitask. And it does
zip right along on a '486. Top of the line clones such as the one we have
at work (Gateway) with 8 megs, 200 meg HD, and non-interlaced 1024 x 768
monitor is actually close to the same price as the A3000-25/100 under the
Power-Up and much much cheaper than the Amiga's street price. My
inclination is to keep my A500, but to buy a '486. Amigas seem to be
standing still while the rest of the industry surges forward. I don't see
any changes in sight.
George
– via Whap!
George:
If you really believe that the AMiga is standing still, go to your dealer
and sit in front of a 3000 and play with 2.0. 2.0 is great. And it is not
a kludge, like Windows. It doesn't require the steep overhead that Windows
does (Windows is absolutley useless, IMHO, on anything less than a 386/25
with at least 6 meg of ram). AmigaDos in a 2 meg machine is actually
productive and quite slick. If your computer needs are application
oriented, then maybe MSDOS is the direction you should go. After all, THAT
is what should drive all computer purchases… the software, no the
hardware.
No one has ever said that the Amiga was designed or marketed to replace the
PC's out there. The Amiga does some specific things extremely well. If
you don't happen to use or need those features then don't use the machine.
But don't blame a pair of pliers for not being a screwdriver, or the
manufacturer for for having the audacity to make different tools.
If you choose the right tool for the job, you'll be a lot happier humanoid.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Michael:
I wish I could go to a dealer and sit in front of a 3000 and play with 2.0.
Unfortunately, the closest dealer WAS 100 miles away in Fairbanks, and he
had his distributor status revoked for non-support 2 years before 2.0 or a
3000 was ever announced. Makes it kind of tough for us rural types. The
only way I can buy an Amiga is by first buying a plane ticket. I can't even
test drive a machine. This is one of my major complaints. As I mentioned
in my previous message, I am definitely a big Amiga fan. I just think that
the other platforms have caught up and i some cases passed us. They're
doing it for less money too. Even under the "Power Up" deal a 3000-25/50
with 1950 monitor will cost you what – $2800? And if you want the 100 meg
drive, then you'd better open your wallet real wide, because they want
another $950 for that plus 3 megs additional ram. When 2.0 is finally
released for the masses, I'm sure I'll be firmly back in the Amiga camp.
It just seems rediculous to have released it over a year ago, and claim
that the reason that it hasn't been released in ROM is because they were
trying to make it as backward compatable as possible. It sounds to me like
they haven't been real serious about it. Maybe I'm wrong. All this
coupled with the latest rumor mill regarding Mr. Ali is what has
disillusioned me. I hope to get my Amiga optimism back RSN.
George
– via Whap!
George, I hope you find reasons to get over your disillusionment (is that a
word? <grin>). While I have no direct knowledge of it, I feel pretty
certain that the reason for the delay in releasing 2.0 had a lot to do with
'making it as bug-free as possible' (as well as backward-compatible as
possible) and not at all to do with them not being serious about it.
It's been a long time comming (and isn't here yet), but the latest version
of 2.0(4) is very solid and I cheer C= for making it so before generally
releasing it (remember 1.1 ?).
I remain optimistic.
Keith
Very true… But just like Apple has tried to do with the Mac, CBM at least
initially tried to compete head to head with the PC.
Look at it this way, if only the people who were going to use their
computors for video work (about the only place the Amiga really has an
advantage anymore) were the ones buying Amigas, the company would be out of
business by now and we'd own orphans (assuming we even bought them in the
first place).
I'm fortunate that I have all three platforms, Amiga, PC and Mac and CAN
choose the right tool for the job. But most people can't afford a full
toolbox when the tools are computers. So they need to buy ONE tool that
will do the most that they need.
Unfortunatly, those who buy the Amiga (which is a GREAT box!) quickly find
out that for the MOST part, they have a good game machine, and a decent
computer for the typical home applications. But real business type apps
are mostly missing (although I hear a GREAT spreadsheet is on it's way).
There are tons of graphical word processors for the Amiga, but for the most
part, the printed output is terrible. So you use (if the program allows
it) only the built in NLQ fonts of your printer and no graphics.
SuperBase, Microfiche Filer, et al are nice databases, but except for dBMan
V, where's the dbase languages? The ones you write accounting packages
with or point of sale programs?
Rick:
You won't find me disagreeing with your statements,… although I do
believe that sql programming in SB4 qualifies in the database language
arena you site. It comes down to the right tool for the job. Unlike
Apple, CBM (internationally) meets the needs of PC/MSDOS users with their
clones, and just happens to also manufacture and market the Amiga.
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
George,
I tend to agree with you on the price/performance issue, and if I had
the option of upgrading from a 500 I do believe I would go for the 386/486.
I know nothing of windows other than what I have read, but have many
intelligent friends (not programmers) who are happy with it.
For a while we had it all, the most advanced hw/OS/graphics/price, but I
am not so sure anymore. With the advent of VGA, Windows, and the rapidly
declining price of complete systems, if I had to purchase a turnkey unit
today I believe the Amiga would not look as attractive. I have more
invested in sw than hw at this point so I believe I will stick with my amy
for now and maybe a 68030 soon.
This is a shame, if C= had just had their #$%^ together and kept up with
what the users wanted instead of what they percieved we needed we could
still snicker at the other pc's. If you remember Eyo Sama's vision of the
3000 in 1989, we should be at least to that point!!
Before I start getting a bunch of hate mail, let me say I love my Amy
and what she does for me, but I just wish her parents would help us out
some. <grin>
..Steve
Whap!ping from beautiful coastal South Carolina
SS>> but I just wish her parents would help us out some.
Her birth parents are dead and her adoptive parents have never quite
figured out what to do with her.
Jim, CPU has a FASTROM option. I wouldn't mind ROMs if you can move it to
RAM via a command in the startup-sequence or user-startup. CBM has said
that the way the A3000 currently boots it uses the 030 MMU in way that is
incompatible with the 040 MMU; They didn't have an 040 card when that code
was written. Of course, new boot roms that do an 040 test and preserve the
superkickstart function would be the best of both borgs, 'er worlds.
-Greg
– via Whap!
Based on past experience, they just start fitting 2.0 ROMs when the stock
of 1.3 ROMs runs out. No announcements, nothing. The first anyone hears of
the new version is when somebody gets home from the shop, switches on and
says "hey I've got 2.0 ROMs" here. Commodore will probably deny all
knowledge.
At least that's true for the UK. (witness 1.3 where they were shipping
machines for a long time that had 1.3 ROMs, but 1.2 Workbench disks!)
Tim
That's 100 percent my experience, too. But why have billions and billions
of 1.3 roms in the system when 2.0 was near? Me thinks someone messed up or
gave up.
-Greg
– via Whap!
Lou,
It's amazing how two high level folks at CBM have totally different
stories. However since Dionne outranks just about everyone else at CBM, I
guess for now, we'll have to believe him.
Don
Don,
I'd have to get an organizational chart out, but I believe that Ali
"outranks" Dionne. Unless I'm mistaken, Dionne is CBM while Ali is CIL.
-sja
Irving Gould is Chaiman, CEO and majority stockholder of Commodore
International Limited. He is the big cheese.
Mehdi R. Ali is President of Commodore International Limited, and run the
show. He is the highest paid Commodore executive (not including Tom
Rattigan and his new $9 million!).
Commodore International Limited is the parent company for all the little
Commodores (Commodore Bueromachenin GmbH, Commodore-Amiga, Commodore
Electronics Limited, Commodore Semiconductor, etc.)
James Dionne is Chief Operating Officer of Commodore-Amiga, Ltd. which is
the U.S. operation of Commodore. He has counterparts in every country that
CBM has a finger in. He used to be COO of the Canadian operation. He is
under Mehdi Ali and Irving Ghoul.
(Well, COO may not be his working title — I can't remember the exact title
that Copperman used. He is Chief of U.S. Operations and the head honcho in
the U.S. Still, he bows to Mehdi Ali since that is his boss.)
-Chas
Chas –
I believe that the US operating subsidiary of Commodore International is
Commodore Business Machines, Inc. (That's the company that Jim Dionne is
president of). I believe that Commodore-Amiga, Inc. is on the technical
side of things.
Jeff Schweiger
A couple of questions:
1. Where did Copperman wind up in the corporate structure?
2. Where are all those "little" Commodores?
David
– via Whap!
The "little Commodores" are all the Commodore subsidaries in foreign
countries: Commodore Business Machines Pty. Ltd (Australia), Commodore
Computer GmbH (Austria), Commodore Computer N.V./S.A. (Belgium), CBM
(Canada), Commodore Data A/S (Denmark), Commodore France S.A.R.L.,
Commodore Electronics Ltd. (Hong King), Commodore Italiana S.p.A.,
Commodore B.V. (Netherlands), Commodore Business Machines (NZ) Ltd. (New
Zealand), Commodore Computers Norge A/S (Norway), Commodore Portuguesa
Electronica, S.A. (Portugal), Commodore S.A. (Spain), Commodore A.B.
(Sweden), Commodore AG (Switzerland), CBM U.K., CBM U.S., Commodore
Bueromaschinen Gmbh (Germany), Commodore Semiconductor, Commodore-Amiga,
Inc. and possibly a few others. They even have a separate company in
Germany dedicated to nothing but spare parts (at least, that is their
official classification). They will probably start a small company in the
Philipines now.
Harry Copperman is now (I believe) is a vice-president of the multimedia
division of the parent company (Commodore International Limited) which is
incorporated in the Bahamas (which gives me an excuse to write off a
vacation once a year!)
-Chas
Harry Copperman has, apparently, left Commodore. It seems to have
happened very quietly, but I asked someone in Commodore and they confirmed
this. I'd give it 90% odds. Take it as a rumor.
However, it is important to note that in Copperman's contract, if
he was fired before May 1 he would've been entitled to a full year's
additional salary as severence pay.
— Ethan
I had figured that when he was "promoted" out of the CBM job into CIL that
he was on the way out. A pity, he was good. I've nothing against James
Dionne, it's just that from what I've seen Dionne is a mass market man
whereas Copperman was more inclined towards the Fortune 1000, government
and higher education.
On the whole I'd prefer the latter than the former. You can be mass or
class, but not both.
-Chas
Actually, Commodore is a Fortune 1000 company, or at least would be
if they were American. They would be appr. 300th.
— Ethan
I recently read a press release from an outfit called JWP, I think, that
recently purchased one of the large, troubled computer retailers
(BusinessLand, I think), which said that Copperman has joined them. I'm
not real positive I've remembered the name of the new employer, but it
definitely was Copperman and he's definitely left CBM.
Darron
– via Whap!
Wow! I figured that Commodore had many offices around the world, but I
didn't think that there were so many separate subsidiaries. No wonder the
left hand never seems to know what the right hand is doing — there are so
many right hands!
David
– via Whap!
Heck, with Commodore, the thumb doesn't even know what the fingers are up
to, much less left and right hands.
Well, from what I understand, their European operations (with the exception
of the U.K.) is pretty well organized. Most of their foreign operations
are relatively small. Commodore considers 50 employees a big number.
The list of companies was taken from the back of the Style Guide and added
to from some personal knowledge. Actually, there was a Commodore Japan at
one time, but I haven't the faintest idea what happened to them.
-Chas
You have to consider the structure of Commodore's operations, which
really does make sense. There are so many divisions because it makes no
sense for someone in the U.S. to make policy for Sweden or Australia. There
are national companies, usually very small, which make marketing/sales
decisions within their country. That is the limit of their
responsibilities. All tech support, development and production comes to
them via Commodore International Limited, the granddaddy company.
— Ethan