#Amiga laptop
76 messages in this thread
I talked with Rick Estes at Newer Technologies today about their Amiga
laptop Model 10. He said that they were "reassessing product viability". I
think I now know what this means (THESE ARE MY OWN CONCLUSIONS AND WERE NOT
DIRECTLY VERIFIED BY NEWER TECHNOLOGIES). I asked "Is there a SCSI
interface on the Model 10?" He said, " On this I would swear that he said
"On this hypothetical computer, it is an option." Also, he said that the
reason that he wasn't at World of Commodore in Toronto, is that Commodore
wouldn't let them in. I said "Why wouldn't they? I mean, they are making
money since you either license or buy their custom chips from them." He
said "Nope. Neither." I think I now know what the problem is: They have
developed the first Amiga clone. I got on the list for more information
when it becomes available. Again, THESE ARE MY OWN PERSONAL CONCLUSIONS.
Sounds a little shaky to me. I didn't think that Commodore controlled
"World of Commodore" so it wouldn't be up to them to allow Newer
Technologies in or not. It would certainly be interesting to see if
someone 'clean room' engineered compatible Amiga custom chips, but I have
some serious doubts that this was done. This is starting to sound a bit
like 'vaporware'.
Jeff Schweiger
Actually, I heard a rumor about a European third-party Denise chip (?) that
supposedly increased the speed of graphics. As for the laptop, I love
conspiracy theories. Security and control is sooo tight at Amiga trade
shows. 🙂 I know it took *months* for us to get approval to show
InterChange, due to CBM's tight reign over software quality on the Amiga
platform.
Hacked "portable" or "luggable" Amigas were shown at Amiga shows at least
two years ago…
John –
Yep, conspiracy theories can be fun 🙂 . As far as independently
developed, but compatible chips though – I certainly concede it can be
done, but considering the amount of time it's taken to get the third-party
Mac ROMs to market (haven't heard much about them recently – are the
problems technical or legal?), I'm having some doubts that a complete set
of the Amiga custom chips has be seaprately engineered. I understand about
the security angle, though. There are some times I think Commodore could
give lessons in writing non-disclosure agreements 🙂
Jeff Schweiger
Jeff,
Let's say the did go the "clean room" route and clone the custom
chips, they would also have to clone the OS ROM…and that, in and of
itself, would be an even larger task. And on top of that, they'd have to
clone the WB programs.
That is a MAJOR project, requiring a major, up-front, investment.
I seriously doubt anyone has done that yet. Thus, one would
presume that they've used an Amiga WB and/or OS ROM (or KS disk) in their
machine.
If so…then they are in violation of Commodore's copyrights right
off the bat…and Commodore could easily object, and win…to their being
at WOC or any other show.
Remember…the last license I saw from Commodore licensed the
product (OS) for use on an Amiga computer…not just on "a computer".
Don
If someone is going to front the money to reverse engineer all three custom
chips, and develop a completely compatible version of the operating
system….well, there's probably better uses for their money. For example
I've got some ideas for a next generation OS, and I know there's chip
people around with ideas for next generation silicon, and …. 🙂
Sure, you could probably assemble a team and clone it. But why ? If you
are going to all that trouble, why leave out the fun part of working on a
computer system ? 🙂
andy
Andy,
I fully agree…it _could_ be done…but why? You certainly
couldn't make any money doing that unless you had sales at least equivalent
to Commodore's sales, or prices twice as high…and isn't the whole point
of a clone to "do it cheaper"?
Don
I was agreeing with you; rather than clone an existing system, if one is
ready to clone the Amiga, there are better things to do, like design a
great _new_ computer system.
andy
> isn't the whole point of a clone to 'do it cheaper'?
The whole point of third party vendors is to fill in gaps that the
manufacturer cannot supply… That is how Compaq got started. Their
luggables were not cheaper than equivilent IBM units, but they filled in a
niche IBM was too slow to provide.
– via Whap!
Don,
I'd forgotten about the way the license agreement was worded. Since the KS
ROMs can be purchased from dealers (the 1.3 and 2.0 kits), I was assuming
that they wuld probably use some Commodore parts (the way Apple ROMs and OS
are used with AMAX).
Jeff
Jeff,
While the ROMs and disks can be purchased from dealers (via the
upgrade kits)…they may not legally be used in anything except an Amiga
computer produced by Commodore.
IF the only way to get a product to perform its intended task (in
this case, for the phantom laptop to run)…then it's illegal to produce
that product. Thus this mysterious clone company isn't even allowed to
produce it. And even if they somehow or other got around that
problem…the certainly couldn't tell folks how to install Commodore ROMs
and software on their machines…because that'd clearly be a violation.
Thus…it's a non-issue until someone can get the courts to rule
that companies can't produce hardware (chips) and/or software licenses that
limit their use to "company machines" only.
Don
Why does anyone have to go to the expense of designing custom chips? If
C= doesn't want to play ball with a laptop company, why doesn't the laptop
company just go the AMaxx route? Design a circuit board that accepts Amiga
chips, and let the dealers outfit it with the necessary ROM and
co-processor chips.
I'm surprised an Amiga hardware vendor didn't make a deal with a
Taiwanese laptop maker to do just that…
– via Whap!
The reason is power consumption – the chips in a 500, for instance, consume
too much power for a portable with a battery. And right or wrong, people
won't accept a portable without battery power – the PC portables have
defined what a portable is. I think there's even a term for a portable that
can't battery – it's luggable – I think, anyway.
It would be the work of a week or two to design a replacement motherboard
for a 500 that would fit in a portable form factor. The keyboard wouldn't
be too much harder, maybe 2-3 weeks (more mechanical stuff involved). An
LCD display can be had from just about any OEM LCD vendor (of many many
many!), and the case is the least of the problems.
Cost – to the consumer – would be steep. You'd need a 500, and the portable
"shell"; that's $400-$500 plus the cost of all the rest… damage to chips
as they were transferred would bring the costs up sharply… It's not a
technical problem to do a luggable. It's a $$$ problem. And anyone who
thinks the AMiga market is a goldmine in a recession needs a cold shower.
Personally – though I would be happy to be proven 100% wrong – I think only
CBM has the power to make such a product. But I have confidence that they
would overprice it, underpower it, and fail utterly to market it. CBM is a
company you can count on – to screw up.
Ben
While I'd love to see a laptop Amiga, I think a 3rd party is the only way
to make one of those things fly, at least at first. Like the IBM and Mac
laptops, the 3rd party lower volumes and quicker design times are needed.
It's probably not a coincidence that the original Mac and PC laptops were
developed by 3rd parties. Nor that the market was created by them.
And for a counter example, just look at the STacy laptop.
Sad to say, Ben, the way for Commodore to screw up a laptop is to do
exactly as you suggest and make such a product. At least, history says so.
🙂
andy
You're probably right.
Ben
I even thought of another example…the SX-64. For its time, the machine
was great. (I still have mine). If it had been done by a 3rd party, they
probably would have made enough on each unit to consider it a success.
andy
You still have an SX-64 and haven't had it converted to a luggable Amiga ?
Shame on you! 🙂
Me too, Keith. Power supply died. Haven't found a replacement.
Michael
andy:
That's funny – I also have an SX-64 and I was reminded of the same thing.
Considering it was circa Osborne I and sported a 5" COLOR monitor, it was
quite advanced for its time.
Roger
I still hve my SX-64, too. Guess we just can't part with them, whether we
use them or not, right?
Betty
I have an SX-64 also, it sees limited service as a Yamaha (DX-7 etc..)
patch librarian in the recording studio. It belongs in the computer Hall of
Fame! <grin>.
– via Whap!
Careful, Ben –
SYSOPS have chastised me roundly for being slightly less acidic in my
comments on CBM – better put on your steel seated boxers… ;^)
wmc
Ben, your points on making an Amiga laptop are well taken; where I
disagree is only with your contention that a portable Amiga has to have a
battery. By eliminating a battery, you'd save $50. -$100. in manufacturing
costs. The Amiga tends to be a multimedia machine; what you you do if you
had a battery? Show off a dynamite presentation to the person sitting next
to you on an airplane?
My thought is to design the unit minus the chips and let the dealer
figure out where to get them. Places such as The Grapevine Group have no
problems getting chips from Commodore. Using the Amaxx approach, I can't
see why a fairly reasonable priced Amiga laptop could not be made?
The big question is, "Who'd want to buy one?". From all indications,
the Amiga is dying in this country… Sorry, but that's my opinion. I
don't care how many people are productively using them, far too many people
who used to recommend Amigas (and I helped influence 3 other people to buy
one) cannot do so anymore due to the popularity of MS-DOS…
– via Whap!
Tony,
IF (double big caps) the Amiga is dying in the U.S., it is because of CBM's
actions: 1) poor to nonenxistent marketting. 2) bizarre pricing policy
(gotta pay Uncle Irv no matter how poorly the company performs) 3)
inability to form a national network of competent dealers. 4) inability to
provide developer supports for "industry standard" packages early in the
Amiga's life (e.g. WordPerfect, DBase, Lotus…)
Now, the only thing going on in the MSDos world that effects the Amiga
adversely is the appearence of Windows. Many MSDos users now say, "see,
Igot windows with hot links and clip boards and multiple programs etc (most
MSDos users don't know the difference betwee real multi-tasking and fake
multi-tasking). The inability to tell the difference between Windows
(which is a User Interface Night Mare) and the Amiga Intuition is CBMs
marketting failure again.
Now, where is CBM going to blow it again!? Multi-media. CBM claims to be
the multi-media machine maker. But IBM, Microsoft, Apple et al are off
forming committees to make multi media standards and machine designs and
protocols. Is CBM involved? No. Not as a participant, a vocal outsider,
or a market force. They are handing the ball over to the competition.
Where could AMiga steal the PC/Mac market? Video teleconferencing –
desktop variety. A few years ago (well, 6 actually) I worked at a company
that had a prototype system that failed because management decided to go
CPM instead of Dos. There was no way to get PC data into the system,
there was no technology for a multimedia database (sound, video
freezes/clips, text, graphics intermingled in one record). We were
attempting to put one together when the company went under. Also at that
time a reservation about DVTC was the "video ettiquette" problems. That is
no longer a drawback as everyone is familiar with (and now comfoprtable
with) live video.
The system I workd on various recorders and 2 monitors hooked up to a
desktop machine that had a touch screen monitor. It also had two color
[ MORE ]
Wayne:
Is CBM really performing badly? If so; why have they been around so long
and why is their stock price going up? Maybe, just maybe their board is
satisfied with the way things are going. Maybe they see no reason to spend
a lot of R&D and marketing money on unknowns when the knowns are putting
beans on the table. Shortsighted, I agree, but who knows what their
motives are. I love my Amiga just like of rest of the people here but its
hard to ignore the competition. Norton Desktop for Windows is pretty nice
BTW. It's not up to Amiga 2.0 yet however. I use a PC at work everyday,
and it's not the monster everyone thinks it is.
I do wish that CBM would get serious with the Amiga though. I thought that
when they released the A3000 and then 2.0 that we were on our way. As you
know, a company can't afford to sit back and rest on their laurels in the
computer business. It moves way too fast.
George
George,
Commodore International makes money. CBM in America looses money, asI
understand it. Commodore International markets computers. CBM does not.
Probably becuase the adavertising budget is chewed up by executive bonuses.
BTW, the reason the stock went up is becuase CBM laid of nearly all its
engineering staff so its expense to incom ration looks good. Now the big
bonuses for QTR 4 '91 and QTR 1 '92 kick in. Is the company in a better
competetive shape for it? Well, I suppose if secretaries can design
computers, it is in better shape.
wmc
Wayne,
I * believe * the stock you see listed on the NYSE is Commodore
International, not CBM.
Don
Don,
Could be. I'm no broker and have a tendency to only "play" when the
inspiration hits. However, I think that rewarding directors for short
terms stock perfromance encourages management that is not healthy for the
long-term interest of the company or share holders.
wmc
Wayne:
It'll be interesting to see what CBM's stock does in the near future. If
what you say is correct, then it is sure to nosedive, and I mean bigtime.
Hmmmm, just when I was thinking about buying some shares too. Looks like
I'll miss out on another investment opportunity.
George
"Looks like I'll miss out on another investment opportunity."
There's no such a thing. Just go short on the stock.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
George,
It may hold up until the summer. I've seen some people that are quite
disappointed with CD-I. If CBM can demonstraate a viable CDTV market, and
make that market begin to happen, that alone could keep them looking good
on the exchange.
BTW, I am a physics/software engineering type, so take my economic
"prognostications" with a grain of salt.
wmc
I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers when I said the Amiga is dying in
the U.S., but I meant it. In the state where I live in (Connecticut), I
only know of two surviving authorized Commodore Amiga dealers. There may
be a couple of others, but they don't push the Amiga.. There is not an
Amiga dealer within 40 miles of my home, and I'm only 10 miles out of
Hartford. There were a number of Amiga dealers in my area but they either
went out of business or dropped the Amiga line. The other day, I went to a
computer fair, specializing in MS-DOS equipment. I had to wait on line 30
minutes just to get into the building! As far as I'm concerned, the Amiga
IS DEAD here. All I see are pockets of activity throughout the U.S.
OTOH, I am seeing a decline in interest in the Apple Macintosh in this
area, and I couldn't be happier about that…
– via Whap!
Well, if the Amiga is dead, and the Mac is dying, that leaves the….
egad! 🙂
–jp–seattle–
Maybe it's Connecticut.
…Dave
> Maybe it's Connecticut.
Well, if it is here, then all I can say is that computer companies are
missing a golden opportunity. Many companies have their corporate
headquarters here.
With regard to the Amiga, I can tell you that the platform is dead
throughout the entire New England area, with the exception of a pocket of
dedicated users in and around Boston. This apparently is due to a few good
stores in the area (such as The Memory Location), and Route 128 (a little
like Silicon Valley East for those who don't know)…
– via Whap!
A golden opportunity is correct. Glad there are still some holdouts.
…Dave
Tony,
No feathers ruffled. I have to drive two hours to a dealer whereas I used
to only have to go 45 minutes. The lack of dealers is partly due to CBM's
awful treatment of current and wannabe dealers. From what I've seen, they
act as though they have the hottest product going saleswise, get the
prospective dealer to put himself in a very precarious position, then push
him into supporting all kinds of unprofitable deals (like educational
sales) and then fail to support them with a REAL national advertising
cmapaign. (e.g. now that Christmas is over CBM stopped its radio ads, but
IBM and Mac are hitting the radio waves harder than ever).
OTOH, I know a lot of video/graphic houses, especially since the Toaster
came along, that will VAR the Amiga and its software. Usually you can go
in, work out a deal and have your hardware/software within 3-4 days at
prices marginally above mail order. Not too bad if you can stand the wait
and don't need the feely-toucheebefore you buy.
wmc
We had a four store chain that exclusively showcased the Amiga some
years ago. Commodore, or it's New England representative, came up with
some kind of grand promotion where the chain bought a truckload of Amiga
equipment (for the A1000 at the time), and had a weekend where
representatives from C= came down to sell the machines, kind of like an
Amiga Computer Fair atmoshphere. At the end the first weekend, they sold
two systems. The stores never recovered from the fiasco..
– via Whap!
[ continuation ]
pan/tilt/zoom camers and a ceiling mounted hi-res B+W camer above the
executives desk. The monitor showed a map of the room and with a touch,
the executive could designate a camera and a shot (pan/tilt/zoom all
controlled from the cmputer) and see a preview on his monitor or a second
preview monitor. the overhead cam zoonmed for close work and could show a
normal typed document at a readable resolution. A touch could freeze a
fram from any camera and it could be shipped to a remote workstation on an
ethernet link.
We were looking at slow scan TV and video compression so that we could use
it via normal phone lines, RF links and satellite.
The tech problems of 6 years ago are less daunting. Picture CBM with a
strategic teaming with BlackBelt (Video Trransmission) GVP (multi-mode
display) and some other non-Amiga companies for Hi-speed netowrks, OCR
stuff, Data compression and storage, touch screen controll etc. CBM could
put a Desktop teleconferenceing workstaiton with voice and video on an
executives desk for under $10,000K with MAC and PC data access. Pull in a
partner like AT&T, PacTel for the long distance data hookup, work with Sun
for in-building network support and CBM is the darling of the industry.
Anyone who keeps a finger on the pulse of DP/Computers as an industry will
tell you that communications and automated document production/controll
(read image processing/contoll systems) is where the industry is going and
the money will be made. With companies cutting travel budgets, a desktop
video teleconferenceing system, itegrated with networks, faxes OCR and
MutliMedia presentations would make its originator a fortune. CBM could
make the transition to this market faster with the Amiga than could Mac or
IBM with their basic machine architecture. Will they seize the moment? Past
history indicates no.
To get to the orignal point – CBM cannot point to IBM for its failure. They
must look in the mirror (or at least at Uncle Irv). They were smart
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
to buy the Amiga technology, but they nhave never appreciated what they
had. Thus they have squandered market window acter market window. Unless
they get bought out by more technically astute management, I see no change
in the future.
wmc
>Will they seize the moment…
maybe you meant….
>Will they SEE the moment…
No, probably not. :^)
Ben
Ben,
Is BlackBelt in a Developer group with cordial enough relations with other
key technology devlopers to put such a proposal to CBM with CBM supplying
machines and some software help?
Since CBM can't steer itself, maybe a strong, united developer
collaboration with a plan could steer CBM.
wmc
Black Belt is not "in" any developer group. We attended the initial meeting
of the Amiga Developer's Association, but felt it was doomed from the
beginning – for various reasons.
There is no group that I am aware of that is aimed in the direction that we
would be interested in going; nor is there one forming (again, as far as I
know).
And I think your imagination has run off with you. I've no faith in CBM to
see, understand, or support any effort that isn't already a done deal.
Ben
Ah… but *I* don't think a machine would have to have a battery; what I
said, I beleive, was that it wouldn't be _accepted_ if it didn't have one.
Me, I don' need no steenkeng batry… :^)
I just need a wall plug and a nice, standard 12 volt power input to the
machine. I could run it in my trailer, my car, with a wall-wart in a train
or a plane, or even with a monster battery pack.
But I still think they couldn't sell very many that way. But I'd be one.
Ben
An interesting upgrade product would be a sub-system style undercarriage
attached to a brick running the length of the 500's rear. Use the brick to
house the power supply and to mount a LCD display/fold down top; use the
sub-system to house the modem and other essentials, and as an added touch,
route the mouse ports to the side/end of the brick.
Not a laptop, but better trying to dash for your bus lugging that *&@!
monitor.
Edward
( Edward_Swatschek@mindlink.bc.ca)
– via Whap!
Yes, that sounds like quite a reasonable way to do it. A "tabletop"
portable. :^)
Ben
Ben-
What I like about Edward's idea, is that it's totally independant of
Commodore. A third party could make the plug-on thingy w/screen. You can
run it for a while on batteries, or plug it in to the wall and if you want,
you can use the color monitor on your desk. It'd be a BIG portable, of
course.
Hey, is it possible to save power by just EMULATING the custom chips
and putting a faster 680×0 in? Kinda kludgy, I know, but we're just
B.S.-ing, so it doesn't matter. I spoze the OS patches would be pretty
nasty, too. 🙁
————————————————————TL———-
YES! My dream machine for my music performances. 500+LCD+attachments. But
as I understand LCDs, it's pretty non-trivial to take a video display and
convert it back into something the LCD could use.
I hereby would like it to be known that I have no need for a laptop
Amiga. I want a laptop, but it will have to run professional accounting
and tax programs, which leaves the Amiga (and Mac) out…
– via Whap!
Tony-
One disagreement: "From all indications, the Amiga is dying in this
country…"
CBM does sell more of the darned things every years, so really the
better description would be, "…the amiga is far from thriving in this
country…" or perhaps, "…the amiga is just standing still in this
country…"
Surely the market share is inadequate to support the new software our
machines desparately need, but rigor mortis has not set in and in fact the
patient feels a little better today than last year. He's still in a full
body cast with intravenious feeding, but NOT dying. :0
————————————————————TL———-
Trevor, just to make sure, the country we're talking about is the U.S…
Just wanted to be sure we're speaking the same language here, as CI$ also
goes out in England.
Until someone shows me CONCRETE EVIDENCE that U.S. Amiga sales are
rising, I will not believe it. European Amiga sales are doing quite well.
Just look at the number of pages in Amiga Format (250-350) v. AmigaWorld
(96 to 140).
I'm a little hard pressed to jump all over Commodore for not supporting
the U.S. It appears that with the MS-DOS mentality over here, any computer
would be hard pressed to make a significant dent. Apple's Macintosh does
not do well in this area either, outside of print shops and Fortune 1000
companies…
– via Whap!
Tony,
When I'm trying to work on an airplane (NOT when I'm flying my own), I
don't generally care what the person next to me is doing. I'm certainly
not gonna "Pssst, wanna see a 'hot HOT' program run?". I'm _working_.
Well, I'm just an old 'Mom and Pop' accountant; all I need is something
lightweight to bring to a client's to record journal entries. A laptop
battery would be near useless to me.
I don't do planes…
– via Whap!
Tony,
It's quite possible, if not already done, for Commodore to license
those chips for use in an Amiga computer only.
They have done that with the OS last I saw, so even if you could
get the chips themselves…you'd still have an empty box with no OS to run
it.
And even if you did all the above (in other words, had tons of
money to waste because that's what it'd be)…your product would probably
die a very quick death in the courts via the 'look and feel' precedence set
by the Apple lawsuits.
Don
If I recall correctly, the "look and feel" analysis has now been rejected
by some courts. If so, then they would at least have a fighting chance on
that issue, if only that issue.
Mike
So I guess the question is, "If I decide to sell an Amiga laptop sans
chips, and my customers buy the chips and operating system separately from
Amiga dealers, am I, or my customers, breaking the law?". Another
interesting question arises, "What makes an Amiga computer?". If you buy
all the main chips from C=, don't you, in essence, HAVE an Amiga computer?
These are all legal questions I am not qualified to answer. But if
ReadySoft was not sued out of business, why should an Amiga laptop maker be
driven out?
– via Whap!
Tony,
Ready soft does not make a computer. Just a (albeit special) peripheral.
Besides, I think they are a New Zealand company which might make it
difficult to prosecute the case.
wmc
Tony: Read the software license on any MAC system software or Amiga
Operating Sysytem and you'll find that it allows you to use the software
ONLY on specific hardware… Here's part of the MAC license:
"This license allows you to use the Apple Software on a single Apple
computer and make one copy of the Apple Software in machine-readable form
for backup purposes only."
from the Apple MAC System Software 6.0.8 softeware license.
Note that the above strictly limits the use of the software to a SINGLE
APPLE computer. You read it right: that means that using the MAC system
software on an Amiga with AMAX is illegal, evenif the Amiga and AMAX are
equipped with a MAC rom. Of course, who'ya gonna call?
And while I can't find my Amiga OS license around here right now (gee, I
hope I don't get pulled over for speeding), I'd be willing to bet that the
same applies to the Amiga's operating system software. Just because you
can buy the disks or roms with a license, doesn't mean that you can use
that software/hardware as you see fit: It means, that if you choose to make
use of the code, than you also agree to the terms of the license.
That's the "pick" 'n the "nit" of it 🙂
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
RE: software license of Mac…
Interesting. Why doesn't Apple just get all of ReadySoft's Amax
registration cards and arrest the entire lot of us? 🙂
– via Whap!
Tony,
Readysoft wasn't sued out of business because Apple never limited
their license on the ROM chips or OS to Apple computers only.
What defines an "Amiga"…Commodore defines it. They make it, and
only they make it. They can license the chips and/or OS for use only in
machines manufactured by Commodore.
Yes, it's illegal to make a device whose only use is an illegal
use. Thus, making a laptop minus the chips and OS would be
illegal…because the only way you could use it would be via an illegal
act.
Don
"Readysoft wasn't sued out of business because Apple never limited their
license on the ROM chips or OS to Apple computers only."
Don,
That's not true. ReadySoft doesn't violate copyright laws because they do
not sell, or offer to sell ANY Apple products, sw or hw and they make no
claim to help anyone obtain either MAc roms or OS.
See my earlier message with regard to the text of the Apple software
license, the explicitly prohibits the use of the OS on anything other than
an Apple computer, and only allows ONE copy, for backup puposes.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Michael,
Readysoft and others do … they tell you to get Mac ROMs and place
them on their board. If that were an illegal activity, they can't tell you
to do it. They don't have to sell the ROMs themselves.
That copyright you read is the recent copyright, not the older
copyright. Much like the original Amiga copyright, you were licensed to use
the product, not limited to a specific brand of computer. Only after
emulator boards came out that required OEM ROMs and system software came
out did the licensing restrictions get tighter.
Don
"If that were an illegal activity, they can't tell you to do it."
Don:
Where did you ever get the idea that an author can't tell you do something
illegal? There are books published that tell you how to rob a bank, murder
your mother-in-law, and any other illegal activity that you can think of.
Have you ever read STEAL THIS BOOK by Abby Hoffman? It details how to steal
from the phone company, how to build bombs, and other illegal activities.
The only thing that ReadySoft can't do, is offer to sell the roms. If they
wanted, however, they could tell you were to STEAL them. 🙂
RadySoft doesn't go nearly as far as that. They just say that you need the
ROMS. They don't suggest HOW you should obtain them. They are perfectly
within the law to assume that if their customers have obtained Mac roms,
they have obtained them legally.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Michael,
The difference is civil vs criminal activity. I can't sue you for
publishing a book on how to build a bomb unless someone uses that book to
build a bomb, and then injures me. Because of the 1st amendment, you can
print almost anything, but as soon as someone becomes injured by your
printing, and the activity you printed about is illegal…then I can sue
you, and win….easily.
Readysoft hasn't crossed that line yet, because they are telling
you to get Mac ROMs, and that used to be (and may still be) perfectly
legal.
Apple can't go back and "re-license" the ROMs that are already out
the door, but let's suppose Apple came out with a new set of ROMs and they
licensed them for use in Apple products only. If ReadySoft then came out
with a board that *only* used those ROMs…then Apple could sue ReadySoft
and win.
Don
Don:
I see your point. But I'm not sure I buy it. 🙂
You're assuming that Apple could prove in a civil suit they were damaged by
ReadySofts product. On the other hand, that might be why AmaxII+ doesn't
use the newer roms. On the other hand, since the 128k roms HAVE been
revised to a certain degree, and Apple has changed its license, why haven'y
they shut down ReadySoft's production of AMAX? On the other hand…(oh, I'm
out of hands for now)
Happy New Year!
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
-> Have you ever read STEAL THIS BOOK by Abby Hoffman?
STEAL THIS BOOK was written by Jerry Rubin. But I guess he could have
stolen it from Abby.
– Kevin Hisel, whia Vap!
Kevin…
Thanks for the correction… hehe, it's been a few years since I've thought
about such people <g>.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Steal This Book was written by Hoffman, not Rubin. You're getting your
Chicago Seven mixed up.
Roger
->STEAL THIS BOOK was written by Jerry Rubin.
No STEAL THIS BOOK was written by Abbie Hoffman and originally
published by Bantem Books but is longer in print, and querries to Bantem
say that it will not be republished. Although if I remeber correctly Jerry
did help him with the and 2 others that I can't recall the name of now. By
the way if anyone has STEAL THIS BOOK and would like to part with it leave
me email, I would be interested in a copy.
..Steve
Whap!ping from beautiful coastal South Carolina
Don –
Not necessarily. One could purchase the laptop sans OS and chips, then
purchase a bare A500 (even cheaper used) and get the chips from that. A
used A500 would most likely be out of warranty anyway, and the chips and OS
would still be in use on only one computer. I'm not sure whether this would
be technically illegal or not, but I wouldn't think it would.
Harry
Harry,
It's not the number of computers it's in use in…it's the
manufacturer of the computer that's the issue.
Commodore has the right, if they choose to (or have chosen
to…they may already have taken the option) to license the use of those
Chips in such a manner that they may only be used in Commodore products.
They also have the right, and to the best of my knowledge have
taken the option, to limit the use of the OS to Commodore machines only.
They can license them any way they wish. Enforcement is of course,
a different matter. However, it'd be quite easy to go after a company that
produced a "shell" computer that needed Commodore's chips and OS for it to
work. I'd be dollars to doughnuts they could get them shutdown in a
heartbeat.
Don
Okay, okay… I'll defer on this point, especially considering your
experience and knowlege in the area of law enforcement. I don't see enough
of a market for an Amiga laptop anyway, unless they'd sell like hotcakes in
Europe for some reason…
– via Whap!
Tony,
Whoops…change that "Apple never licensed" to "Apple originally
didn't license".
Until companies like ReadySoft for the Amiga, and Dave Small's
company for the ST…Mac ROMs and software would only run in a Mac….thus
it wasn't an issue and Apple never explicitedly limited use to only Apple
products.
Don
They did not allow any A2010 ou A1011 compatible drives to the show
either…!
Pat
– via Whap!
Pat,
In case you missed it, I sent you a request asking for the address of your
dealer in Quebec City. I live near Montreal and am up there a few times
during the year. I would like to take a look at the 2M drive myself, and if
your prices are any good for a 3000, well, maybe….
David McCabe
WHAP!ping from Montreal! :^)
OK David, I don't know how I did it but I replied to myself in my last
message…! Here his our store address in Quebec City:
MicroVision 750 Ctte Franklin Quibec, PQ G1N 2M1
– via Whap!