#Open Letter to CBM
97 messages in this thread
I heard a factoid yesterday (from a source within the company) which deeply
concerns me about Commodore's marketing focus for the Amiga in the
immediate future. As it stands today, the new 8-bit graphics, 16-bit
sound, and super floppy drive that had been anticipated for the Amiga
Family (and about which Irving Gould was quoted) may be spun-off into a new
machine, not Amiga-compatible.
My understanding is that the company hasn't determined just what to do yet.
My aim in this open letter is to spark some debate and give Commodore
marketeers an earfull. (This kind of market research is both inexpensive
and hopefully, informative, to the company).
If my thesis is true, then this presents a quandry for both Commodore and
Amiga-users. It is difficult enough to attract software developers to
write for our platform given the size of competing markets. My case in
point: I only bought AMAX-II to run Microsoft-Excel. When I discovered
that the text coming out of my Canon Bubblejet looked sick compared to what
came out of a MAC connected to the same printer, I changed over to
MAC-WRITE II and JETLINK EXPRESS.
Why is there no MICROSOFT WORKS for the Amiga? I often hear Steve Jobs
ridiculed for the NeXT, but he has a strategic focus. He has invested
precious capital in his startup to get the software users need. I think his
strategy will ultimately succeed. Why? Users buy hardware because of how
the software empowers them. The NeXT is doing radical and wonderful
things, things the Amiga could probably do better if the software was in
place.
Commodore chooses not to fund the big guys to develop their software for
our machine. They figure if they grow the market than the big guys should
jump in. I agree with that logic, but… If Commodore were to engineer and
market a successor to the Amiga for multimedia markets, what would be the
draw for developers? Instead of an installed base of 3 million, the base
would number in the hundreds or thousands. I would hazard a guess
[ MORE ]
Harold,
Your message is intriguing and just cries for comment, however, I doubt
you'll get any informed comment. The people that know what CBM plans in
the near future are under a _very strict_ non-disclosure agreement. You'll
probably receive comments from those that "heard it from a friend who is a
developer" or "a friend who works for CBM said…" — all second and third
party "rumors".
I think you can be assured that CBM is very aware of the future need for
better graphics, better audio, faster CPUs, and a lowered price tag for
future Amigas. Short of that, and pending any announcements from CBM of
future Amiga/non-Amiga machines, they ain't nuthing but unsubstantiated
rumors.
-sja
Steve,
My intent is to underscore one fact: the decision of what to do with the
new technology has apparently not been made. I ask Amiga owners to
weigh-in with their opinions.
Market share is critical for Commodore. I really do like the Company, its
products and its people. We would be doing the company a grave disservice
if informed users didn't express their wishes. My impression of Commodore
is that they really do care about the people that use their marchines.
I share my opinions not because I have the only right view. I share them
because the whole focus of my professional life is business strategy,
operations management, and total quality control processes. So, I'm not
exactly uniformed about the "science" of marketing.
Hal Grigdesby Krannert Graduate School of Management Purdue University
– via Whap!
Hal, "…the decision of what to do with the new technology has apparently
not been made" — as I said, rumor only. No one is going to confirm nor
deny (who is willing to have their name attached to that confirmation or
denial). Informed users _should_ express their opinions but they should
also know that this particular statement is another of the rumor mill
variety — much like the "No 2.0 for the US" rumor.
IF people have a sincere interest in what is going on at CBM and have a
reason to know (other than curiousity) they should contact CATS, fill out
the forms, pay their money sign the non-disclosure agreements. and become
registered developers.
Steve, and others, just to let you know that there was an interesting
article in one of the UK's magazines "Amiga Computing" called "Commodore
takes Amiga RISC". And you can tell from the title that it talks about a
possible RISC based Amiga. According to the article, the information comes
from someone within CBM. Of course, each magazine tries to out scoop the
other, and it's easy to get someone to say "Yes, we have looked into the
possibility of a RISC based computer.", but actually releasing one is a
different matter. Actually I wouldn't mind seeing an Amiga based on a RISC
chipset. The only question is how compatable could they make it and still
run the old software?
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John, Why do you think there is a 200 pin co-processor slot in the 3000?
The technology and expansion slot is there _now_ waiting for CBM or any 3rd
party to take advantage of it.
Steve, Tho the intent of your advice is sound, it is not current. CATS is
not accepting new developers unless you are a corporation with a
demonstrated Amiga product. Otherwise they just send your check back with
little or no explanation. SO becomeing a developer is not an option
anymore unless you already have a product and publisher lined up. wmc
Wayne, That is incorrect. CATS will accept practically anyone for the
certified developer program. About the only criteria is that you have
_something_ to do with developing whether that be coding or technical
writing. You definitely do NOT have to be corporation. The criteria for
becoming a commericial developer is quite different and that may be the
cause of your confusion.
Steve,
The cause of my confusion is a returned check with no explanation.
wmc
Harold,
Have you watched Commodre for very long? I've been watching them
constantly for more than ten years now. Every one of those years I have
read messages, articles, etc – and listened to speeches, conversations,
etc. – saying that if Commodore did not do this or that specific thing,
they would not be able to stay in business another year. But they HAVE
stayed. They are a stable company. They have to be doing something right,
else they would not still be here.
Now – we are not privy to all of the things going on at Commodore. They
used to tell us everything they even thought they might do, and the users
all expounded on the problems of dealing with premature announcements,
products that never made it to market at all, late releases, and so on and
on and on. Now, they tell us nothing and have all of their developers
under extremely tight non-disclosure agreements to prevent all those
premature announcements – and the users are expounding on the fact that
Commodore is not making plans, not developing anything new, etc.
Does it seem to you – as it does to me – that they cannot please us no
matter WHAT they do? I strongly suspect that they are very busy creating a
machine for the future that we will just love, and for which we will pay
rather handsome amounts of our money. It's just that they will announce
them on their own schedule.
Betty
Betty,
If you construed my messages as being Commodore bashing, read them again. I
like this company… I have friends that work for the company… I want
Commodore Int'l to prosper! I am a stockholder, are you?
My point is simply: At an installed base of 3 million, Amiga Users are
still a small family. A commitment to quality (both perceived and
tangible) on the part of a manufacturer must involve it customers. Betty,
that is us.
If you enjoy using your Amiga, let Commodore know. If you have design
improvement suggestions, let Commodore know. The time to give strategic
advice is before the $6 million cost of market research + R&D + initial Ad
campaign. To put it another way, do you read Consumer Reports after you
spend $20,000 on a new car to see how well you guessed? Of course not! One
avails themselves of all pertinent information from a variety of sources
before the purchase decision is made.
Hal Grigdesby Krannert Graduate School of Management Purdue University
– via Whap!
Actually, Hal, a significant number of people *do* read Consumer Reports
after they spend 20K on a car; they want to see their decision validated.
The same goes for television advertising. Often, current owners of the
product appreciate the advertising because it indicates to them that they
made a good choice.
andy
Re: reading after purchase
People do just what you say. I read C/r after I bought an Amiga. I read the
(reasonably positive, but certainly slanted) things they had to say about
the Amiga, and decided that if that was the level they provided advice on,
I'd best not pay attention to anything else they said.
Part of the blame is on CBM, IMHO.
Looking on the bright side, it's one more thing I don't have to read. :^)
–Ben
I'm not sure how the quality of Consumer Reports is controlled by CBM, but
its your opinion, and you are entitled to it.
andy
It's not – and I wasn't saying that. I was just saying that *my*
opinion of consumer reports is low, because I was able to evaluate
the report they gave on Amiga hardware (knowing it well) and could ID
the failings (many) in the report. So I don't trust them. ALl it says
about CBM is they make a nice computer, but CR couldn't see it. No
arrows in that one for you guys.
Ah. I misinterpreted your "Part of the blame is on CBM, IMHO"
It confused me a little.
andy
Guess I'd have to go look at the message – might have been another thought.
Using Whap has definite disadvantages; older messages are lost, and you
can't check easily what you (or anyone else) said.
–Ben
it would probably make it easier if CIS had a backwards thread read
command, so you could scan backwards until you came to the message.
Possibly you hit your "random dig at CBM" function key by accident 🙂
andy
Andy, "…backwards thread read command…" — it's been there for at least
10 years. Type RP (read previous).
-sja
Andy,
OK… maybe I should have offered a better analogy than that of Consumer
Reports and customers shopping for cars.
What I was really trying to get at is the concept of prudence. When
capital is at risk, one should survey the marketplace to determine the
likely outcomes of a business strategy.
With respect to your employer… Commodore did a very strategic thing when
it made a Unix box. The US operation should be commended for keeping it
alive. Most customers equate Commodore with quality hardware at bargain
basement prices. If Commodore US can provide quality color Unix boxes at
bargain basement prices to education/ business/ government, I think the
company will have a real winner.
One of the case studies out of Harvard deals with the fate of Timex, the
watch company. They were king of the low cost watch market shortly after
World War II from a zero departure point. In the fifties and sixties, one
could walk into any drug store in America and buy a Timex. As kids, we can
remember John Cameron Swayze (sic?) saying… "Timex, it takes a licking
and keeps on ticking."
Timex went from the being the pre-eminent manufacturer of low cost watches
to near bankruptcy. Today, they buy watches from an OEM and only resell.
What happened: They miscalculated the effect that LED/LCD technologies
would have on the low-cost watch market.
Andy, I understand your commitment to both the Amiga and Commodore. You
certainly understand the tension that often exists between designers and
marketeers. How do you get essential non-technical entities like myself
and marketeers to understand new technologies and develop a winning
business strategy based upon them.
That is Commodore's challenge. Many things are happening in the
work-station marketplace right now. Whatever Commodore does, it must
consider the likely reactions of other companies.
Thank-you for your participation in this thread.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
[ MORE ]
One interesting factor you have to add… when people compare the
Amiga and a NeXT and then say 'If only the Amiga had such and so…'
it usually comes out like: If only the Amiga had twice the hardware
of the NeXT at half the price, then it could compete. Which is kind
of an interesting statement.
Actually, I suspect that there are a lot more people getting good,
daily use out of Amiga's then there will ever be for NeXT, but who
knows. But CBM does get us rather frustrated at tunes. For
instance, a systems analyst at work wants to buy a new computer. He
wants to do some things that the Amiga is great at, but he needs IBM
compatibility for some software. He would buy a 3000 plus an 80386
bb if 1. the latter was available, and 2. the 3000 could make good
use of it. Since the answer is no, he'll have to go out and buy a
clone instead.
I couldn't even tell him to wait a couple of months since there's no reason
for us to believe that the above needs will be met by then.
This isn't comparing Amiga to NeXT, but a problem with Amiga and CBM, IMHO.
Ron
Ron,
My solution for IBM compatibility for the 3000 was:
1) Get AMAX-II 2) Under System 6.05, run SOFT-PC with the AT/EGA Option 3)
According to ReadySoft, you will obtain an (80286/80287) machine running at
16 Mhz with upto 2 mb RAM. True enough, you have to do messy things with
Cross-DOS to get everything to work right ('cuz Amy doesn't have
superfloppy drives yet), but the configuration works well enough. Readysoft
also claims that with AMAX-II+, Amiga Floppy Drives will be directly
supported as MS-DOS drives (DS/DD 720K) for SoftPC.
I only had to run one PC program called NETSOLVE, a logistics network
modeling program. So, that's the extent of my testing.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Harold, I've been thinking of getting SOFT-PC for Amax to help solve some
of my problems with CD-Rom access. I have a 3000 with only 2 IBM slots, 1
has the Bridgeboard and the other a Chinon controller for the CD-Rom drive.
But I have found that most IBM CD-Rom software requires at least EGA
emulation or better. So, are you able to access your CD-Rom drive as a IBM
CD drive through SOFT-PC? If so, do you just set up the Microsoft Extension
and Chinon (or other) drivers on the SOFT-PC? This can get a little wild
8^) An Amiga 3000, emulating a Mac, emulating a 286AT faster than a 286
Bridgeboard, with more features 8^)
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John,
Soft-PC (AT/EGA Option) is supposed to let you mount a MAC CD (HFS or ISO
9660) as a network drive (a/k/a MAC device) as MS-DOS drive E:. I have not
been able to get this to work because Soft-PC wants to be able to write to
E:. XETEC sent me the MAC driver for their CDx-650e drive. It works quite
well.
– via Whap!
Looks like I will have to purchase Soft-PC and give it a try. Too bad it's
trying to write to the E: drive. Maybe there might be a way to tell Soft-PC
that it is READ only. I also have the MAC driver for the Xetec drive, but
haven't had much luck in getting the Nautilus CD to work, have you? Have
you tried any other MAC CD's other than the Nautilus, and if so, what is
your success in getting them to work?
John
In all cases, you need to look at the tasks you need accomplished and the
software available to determine if a computer is 'right' for you. If your
friend needs to do things only the Amiga does well, but he needs to do
things that only a 386 box does well, he has a problem…and needs to
decide which job it is more important to have done well.
Besides, if he was going to buy a 3000 and a bridgecard, he could just as
easily buy a 3000 and a 386 laptop, or a 3000 and a clone; no-name clone
prices seem to be dirt cheap. He could hook them up with ethernet or
arcnet or even (assuming he's a PC programmer in need of a challange)
parnet.
andy
Andy, one of the nicest selling points of the bb's has been having two
systems in one box; a minimal footprint. But what my friend will do is to
get a clone and give up the things that Amiga does well, since he does't
want two boxes. (actually, I now have 2 friends with the same problem)
I think this is mainly a marketing issue; the convienience of the bb's.
Technically, I know that Commodore can come up with the hardware if they
want to; the operative word being 'want'. But after 6 years ot the month
of being an Amiga owner I'm convinced that Commodore doesn't want to do
some of the things that owners and prospective buyers want them to do. Not
your decision, or mine.
BTW, do you know if CBM has made any decision, officially and on the
record, of course, to eventually release any new Janus hardware or
software?
Ron
Interesting; what I hear a lot of also is people complaining about the
cost of the bridgeboard, comparing it to what they can get a no-name clone
for; it seems the value of the convienence is small to a fairly large
group of people.
I don't know the official release status of new hardware or software; I'm
in the CDTV game these days. I understand that Jeff Scherb mentioned some
information at the recent AmiExpo. Perhaps someone who attended could give
a report ?
andy
Andy,
Another writer who was at Jeff's session at Expo (I arrived the next day)
told me that after someone griped about the lack of a 386SX bridgeboard,
Jeff said that, while he wasn't in the business of making new product
announcements, one should be showing up real soon now.
…Denny Atkin
The cost of the bb's has come down some; in the 'good' old days the bb's
just by themselves cost more then complete clones did. I remember xt bb's
going for $600 without the extra multipurpose card needed, while one could
buy a clone for that or less with monitor, keyboard, etc.
A well priced 386 bb with serial, parallel, clock, at least 1 meg ram (with
usable high ram) supporting at least EGA on the Ami monitor, with ability
to access the existing Aniga floppy drives could not just sell well on its
own, but could be a very valuable selling tool for the 3000. It would
certainly have sold at least 2 of my friends, and possibly many more.
I'm told that CBM has exhibited a 386 bb recently, but I haven't talked to
anyone who saw it.
Ron
Andy,
Can I give you my thoughts about CDTV marketing…
1. A wonderful product. Yeah C=! Now, let's get the product positioning
right.
2. Critical error not to bring the CD-ROM extensions to market for the
500/2000/3000 at CDTV launch. With 3 million Amiga owners and an
affordable CD-ROM player for these existing systems, C= could have had
instant, massive market share numbers. Good for C= and good for C='s
developers. (Good for stockholders, too).
3. XETEC's sales have been okay for their clone. My sensing is many
potential buyers are waiting to see the C= logo on a CD-ROM drive before
making a purchase decision.
4. A retail price point above $350 is risky. C= should make its margin on
peripherals and software (since you guys are CDTV Publishing, right?).
5. Why do sales regions only get the neat CDTV demo stuff. Central Region
has a DCTV for CDTV, an internal HD with expansion memory, and AmigaVision
drivers for multimedia. When do dealers get this stuff?
PS: Keep up the good work.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
For a 386 Bridgeboard, get an AT (286) Bridgeboard and add a
chip-replacement accelerator. There's one that I've heard works fine, but I
forget the name of it.
Darin
(My opinions don't reflect SPC's or its employees's opinions.)
– via Whap!
Darin, I use the 8088 plus the SOTA 386si, but it is a bit silly if one is
buying a 3000; it won't fit by the time you add the required multipurpose
card.
Ron
That's the board I was thinking of. I have an AT bridgeboard (but
unfortunately no 2000 for it yet! :-() and was thinking about getting one.
How is it? Are there any compatibility problems with it? How fast is it?
Etc.
Thanks,
Darin
The SOTA is a fine board, BUT JANUS 2.0 doesn't like it all that much in
terms of Amouse, timeserv, etc. And you can't use the add-on SOTA 16-i
memory option.
Speed wise about 6-7 x the normal xt speed by some tests.
I'm pleased with mine, but you'd have to ask CBM whether the amouse and
other problems will be fixed at some point (first reported nearly 2 years
ago); in other words, if Janus is still being supported now that the one
Janus person some of us knew about is no longer there (or so I'm told).
Ron
You can upgrade the A2286 bridgeboard with a 386 chip-replacement upgrade,
but IMHO, the A2286 is poorly designed. It contains well known hardware
flaws that prevents it from working with Windows 3.0 in standard mode and
the fake drive access is 5 times slower than the A2088 bridgeboard.
Overall, I would not recommend to board for little more than a paper
weight.
Tim
I wouldn't go that far; but the 286 bridgecard's problems prevent it from
being used for extensive Windows use. On the other hand, I run QuickC, a
PIMS application, and Microsoft Project for Windows under it with no
problems. (I did the single wire hack to up the fake drive speed
that Scott posted to Usenet, and added a couple hundred
buffers to the partition with the fake drive, and get good
performance)
andy
Andy,
I don't know if I follow your comparison of NeXT and Amiga. I'll try to
clarify my point:
NeXT has a user-friendly UNIX implementation called Mach. It's object
oriented programming design is called NeXT Step. Those that use NeXT Step
at Purdue tell me it's wonderful; I'm not a programmer, so I take their
word. One man in particular is Alan Braunsdorf, an Amiga programmer and
NeXT Administrator for campus. The software that runs on the NeXT is very
attractive to professional types: Lotus Improv, FrameMaker, WriteNow,
Sybase, SoundWorks, SoftPC, SAS, Adobe Illustrator, Mathematica, TopDraw,
Oasys, TextArt, Diagram!, FloppyWorks, ClickArt, Calling?, Squash!, 3270
Vision, Transarc, PaperSight, Communicae, Teleconnect, MacLinkPC, MapArt,
MediaStation, Co-Xist, Allegro CL, Unix Mumps, WingZ, Adobe Type Library,
OCR Servant, Adobe Touch Type, Fortran 77, Oracle, Word Perfect, etc.
(Taken from a NeXT ad in NeXT World).
My points, Amiga v. NeXT had more to do with my thesis that UNIX doesn't
have to baffle end-users. The next component of my thesis is that UNIX is
a critical market for the rest of the decade and the next century. I
congratulated CBM-USA for their commitment to UNIX inspite of the rest of
CBM being luke-warm to it. I think the radical thing about Commodore doing
UNIX is "Geez, Commodore is doing UNIX?" View the statement through the
eyes of one who sees Commodore's historical distribution strength through
mass markets. Is Commodore's vision of UNIX intended for mass markets?
Maybe it should be. We seem to agree here that marketing has got the
pricing wrong for this product, in light of Don Curtis' comparative stats.
Andy, does that help explain my angle?
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
My point was that in this country, people expect Commodore to offer twice
the value at half the price "in order to compete"
It's very tough to make money in that kind of uphill market.
Software developers face that problem as well…the Amiga market is
conditioned to expect WordPerfect for $99, when the same version selling on
Unix is $999.
andy
>> "My point was that this country, people expect Commodore to offer twice
>> the value at half the price "in order to compete"
Well, Commodore certainly isn't doing that!! When I can buy a 33MHZ 80386
for the cost of an A3000, I am obviously not getting twice the value. I
have been a supporter of the Amiga technology since its birth. I thought
that the operating system and hardware were revolutionary for their time.
However, times have changed. A PC compatible with a 33MHZ 386/387, a
graphics coprocessor board (ATI Ultra $499), and IDE hard drive outperforms
the Amiga 3000 in virtually every category for a comparable cost. The
video card provides for resolutions up to 1024X768 and 256 colors displayed
at once. The graphics under Microsoft Windows 3.0 are FASTER than the
Amiga (I have a benchmark measuring line draw speed.). Commodore hasn't
even provided a device independent graphics library making virtually all
video board upgrades USELESS to everyday applications. I find it quite
amusing that a computer that touts expandability as a strong point can't
even support the advancing technology of video hardware. Hey isn't video a
strong point for the Amiga??? How about a high density floppy drive??
While Commodore has expanded the Amiga line, they have yet to decouple the
coprocessor chipset from being the system bottle neck. Though I hate to
say it, I think the Amiga is dying. I am finding it harder and harder to
justify buying an Amiga. Just what does the Amiga do that can't be done by
a PC?????
Tim
Welcome to the no-name clone market. Yup, for $10 you can get a 486 with a
200 meg hd, that…
For users, the clone market has been nothing short of a bonanza.
But that's neither here, nor there. I was talking about what people ask
for when they post suggestions, ie "upgrade the base A500 to a 20 mhz 68020
with 4 megs ram for
the same $399 price; then you can compete against the $1200 8 Mhz Mac"
I don't know how to overcome the price advantages of the clones, I doubt
you do either, otherwise you'd be very, very rich.
(BTW, I'd be interested in seeing your benchmark program; with
a little tweaking of the A3000 I can generally get much higher
ratings on the A3000 than a 386)
Video can be a strong point for the Amiga because its NTSC or PAL video
rates. You're confusing video with computer graphics. Ask NewTek about
the difference.
If you are convinced the Amiga isn't the computer for you; fine, you should
buy a PC. (Commodore will be happy to sell you one, if you want)
Personally, I like the A3000; it outperforms the 386 for the things I need
it to do; the OS is a pleasure to work under, and to program, (unlike
Windows and DOS), I use a 1Kx800 monitor for some things, and 640×400 for
others. I program, ray trace, do video work, etc. If running Lotus on
supervga is your thing, then the PC is for you; for me, its the Amiga.
andy
First off Timothy, cool off. Andy Finkel is not the one to blow any steam
at. He is a software-engineer who is taking his time to be a part of CIS,
please don't run him with the hostilities that your message carries.
That being said.
I of course disagree. You can't compare the price of an orange to that of
an apple. The IBM compatible technology right now is extremely cut-throat.
Computer dealers are going out of business in the clone market because of
the mail order situation and the availability of really inexpensive parts.
While at least the Amiga dealership I work at is having its best year yet.
The PowerUp programs and the Video Toaster has finally made the Amiga
"profitable" to the dealer. I watched three local PC clone shops lock
their doors for good.
Since Commodore does not use that Intel technology (yeah!) they really
can't compete with the pricing structure. That is no fault of Commodore's.
If they ever did decide to abandon that thinking (which I am sure they
wont) I will leave Amigas and probably buy a NeXT.. Sigh, what a dark day
that would be.
I do not consider a 33MHZ 80386 to be in any way shape or form equal to the
A3000. After all is AmigaDOS available on a PC? Is a workable nice
multitasking solution available for the PC standard? Don't blow Windows by
me because the last thing it is is "nice".
As far as hard disk performance goes, I say lets see your numbers. I dare
say that the A3000 disk performance is much superior than that of any PC
clone. The video card does thing you quoted is not useful for video at
all, so I miss the point here.
The list of things the Amiga can do that the PC doesn't is long… do you
really want it?
-mark=
– via the Whapster!
Harold,
Interesting that you mention SAS. I know that SAS doesn't exist for the
Amiga, but I've heard the folks there say they USE the the SAS source as
one of the tests for the Amiga compiler. Interesting that they've chosen
to sell the product on the NeXT (maybe 100,000 machines worldwide?) and not
on the Amiga (too small a market).
Andy,
Those types of statements would not be made and comparisons with the NeXT
not made if CBM used advertising to establish an Identity in the public's
mind of an AMiga. One ad campaing poorly executed at Xmas in all the
places you'd expect toys to be advertised, that says its a computer for
Johnny to use when he gets tired of Nintendo builds no real image of the
AMiga at all. No focus, no Image. no Image, no sales. No sales no
software support..etc
wmc
I don't think advertising will chane anything about this perception; after
all, how much has Job's advertised so far ?
I'm afraid the easy answer of 'do more advertising' is not real to the
point here.
andy
Andy,
About Steve Job's and advertising the NeXT…
He is evangelizing the existing MAC channel. He seems to be deliberately
not growing too fast. He's got major software. Then there's AmigaWorld's
sister publicaion, NextWorld.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
No advertising, though.
andy
O.K. Andy – how bout a name change, or spin the AMiga off as a wholly owned
subsidiary with CBM connection not publicized…. :^}
wmc
Okay, Andy, I went back and read my message. In context, it made sense to
me again, but I can see how you read it.
Let me be real clear: I don't read CR; that's because they do a crappy job.
I know they do a crappy job because I know the Amiga. CBM made the Amiga.
It's therefor CBM's fault I don't read C/r.
It was meant to be a funny aside – just goes to show you that you should
never forget the "smiley" :^)
Ben
Yes, the smiley would have made it much clearer!
andy
Ben,
Let me try once more to convey to you why MS Works is important for Amiga.
1. Microsoft Works is a solid, integrated product. Are there better stand
alone products already for the Amiga? Perhaps. However, MS Works has a
distinct price advantage.
2. Microsoft brand name recognition has a favorable impact on first time
buyers. Given a 386 and a 3000, all other things being equal, customers
tend to gravitate towards the system that runs the software that they have
heard of. First time buyers often have no idea why they want a computer…
They don't come in saying, "I want to do video" or "I want to do
multimedia." More often its, "My kids are using a computer at school and I
want to get one for them to use at home" or "I want something I can use at
home to work on stuff from the office."
MS Works is dominant in education markets (period). MS Works is dominant
in the larger integrated productivity market for MAC and MS-DOS (period).
In the context of paragraph two, a data file compatible version of MS Works
is an ideal addition for the Amiga.
3. Most Amigas sold today still only have one megabyte chip ram. It's get
tougher everyday to multitask with one meg (notice I didn't say
impossible). My feeling is that MS Works could be optimized for our OS, if
C= really wanted it.
4. If you still hate MS-Works, what about Lotus Works?
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
! meg chip ram only affects too many screens at one time, not the number
(or size) of programs. I don't think that a WP, spreadsheet, database, and
telecomm program running at once should strain 1 meg of chip, it certainly
doesn't on my machine.
Let me try to convey to you why you are barking up the wrong tree.
The Amiga is a machine that works differently than the PC. That's one of
the reasons that WP takes so much flack for the incredibly crappy WP
program they foisted off on Amiga users. While there are plenty of
loyalists, with many reasons that would be dear to you (IE they have used
it elsewhere and know how, an investment they don't want to part with) the
program is trash. It looks bad, it performs worse, and it's ability to
produce the output you want is extremely limited. WP 5 may be better. We'll
see. We don't need another one of these.
MS Works is a lump. We don't need or want lumps. Some of us don't even want
users who want lumps. The best way to implement anything on the Amiga is in
programs.
aside: Person A; "The PC has TSR's, the Mac has Desk Accessories… so,
what does the Amiga have? Person B: "Programs".
If you caught it, that's a _real_ mean comment. :^) If you didn't, that's
the root of your problem.
–Ben
Ben,
It's so special when two people agree to disagree :<)
Why the Amiga needs MS-Works (Wrap-up of points):
1. Educational market needs product because:
a. Prospective buyers are more likely to recognize MS Works than the
Amiga as brand names. Remember, marketing efforts by IBM and Apple are
much stronger than C=. MS Works is featured in their literature. It is a
known quantity. Other Amiga Users who principly use these other platforms
are yearning for it.
b. MS Works is affordable in bulk for schools. Price is under $60.
c. MS Works is the standard software package taught in K-12 schools
in Indiana.
2. Home market needs it because:
a. Reason 1a above.
b. Data exchange capability is an important consideration for many
prospective buyers who want to take work home from the office. So, would
be quite effective when bundled with Cross-DOS.
3. Commodore needs it because:
a. MS Works is likely a prerequisite to getting Excel and Word for
our machine. (Yes, I really like these programs).
b. Cross-pollination effect. Microsoft in the Amiga software section
gives credibility to the machine.
4. Why the community of developers would hate it:
a. The "little guy" is never subsidized, why would Commodore
subsidize a company bigger than itself?
b. C= would be undermining the market-share of all those other
integrated packages out there.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Hal –
This entire push for MS Works appears to be another triumph of marketing
over technology and capability. Of the many PC-Clone users I know and work
with, I've never heard one of them say the use the product. Most of them
do their best to steer clear of any MS product (most of these folks are big
on Borland products). Some of these folks have gone as far as installing
DR-DOS from Digital Research instead of MS-DOS. MS Windows is greatly
used, but even then it gets its share of gripes.
Jeff Schweiger
Jeff,
To give you an idea of how Microsoft looks at Microsoft Works, I have
provided a table (Exhibit 6) of Harvard Business School Case 9-588-028,
Rev. 10/17/89, entitled: Microsoft Corporation: The Introduction of
Microsoft Works.
All Figures are in Thousands.
1986 1986 1987 1988
Population Estimated Forecast Forecast Country
(in 000) Unit Sales Unit Sales Unit Sales ——-
———- ———- ———- ———-
USA 240,856 2,279 2,000 1,500 England
56,458 170 225 220 Canada 25,625
106 120 110 Austrailia/
New Zealand 19,098 34 45 40 France
55,239 139 160 155
West Germany 60,734 136 145 120 Italy
57,226 83 115 130 Netherlands 14,536
46 60 55 Portugal 10,095 2
5 10 Sweden 8,357 39 45
40
Spain 39,975 16 30 50 Japan
121,402 50 50 30
——- —– —– —–
TOTAL 708,701 3,100 3,000 2,460
Note: The figures above include IBM PCs, XTs and compatible clones. They
do not include IBM ATs, PS/2s, and other non-compitables.
Observations:
1. MS Works has world market penetration. My understanding is the product
has done much better than this forecast.
2. Quote from the case on page 13: "(MS Works was) positioned as an
easy-to-learn, esay-to-sell, integrated solution to the productivity needs
of "breadth users" in homes and small businesses, who were buying their
first computer."
3. You mention your friends… they are probably more sophisticated in
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
their use. I don't use Works either… I use Excel and Word. I know the
market is there because my customers want the product.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
You mentioned:
"The PC has TSR's, Macs have Desk Accs, what's the Amiga got?" "Programs."
I said the same thing the other day to a friend of mine who owns an ST.
They have desk accs, too.
Darin
(My opinions are just that and don't reflect the opinions of SPC or its
employees.)
– via Whap!
Harold,
Unsubstantiated rumors, especially harmful rumors do no one any
good. Plain and simple…they don't stimulate intelligent conversation,
they incite emotion.
Just as an example…you ask why there is no Microsoft Works. In
return, I ask you…why does there have to be a Microsoft Works? What's
wrong with all the other packages that do the same thing?
Don
Don,
Microsoft Works is a critical product for education markets, e.g. K-12 and
collegiate. It is a wildly successful product for home users of both
MS-DOS machines and the Macintosh. It is fully integrated, unlike the
present Amiga offerings. (I am thinking of Platinum_Works! and the Gold
Disk offering for the 2000HD/P).
While we're going along that line, I wish we had Quicken for the Amiga.
Don, if you have not used these products from other platforms, then try
them out at your local dealer. I will simply state that there must have
been a reason for all those MS-DOS users and MAC users to have turned both
products into blockbusters, i.e. profit centers for their respective
companies.
Why is it important? The simple answer is that it makes the sales effort
easier for the markets I just described. Potential first time buyers
associate the tradename Microsoft with Quality. When I show the Amiga, the
most frequently asked question of me is, "Does it run Microsoft Works?" My
most frequent retort is "Microsoft Works for the Amiga is called
Platinum_Works!." The truth is that Micro-Systems Software's product is
dated and hasn't been through a significant revision in years. It is price
competitive, however. MS Works costs about $60 to schools and
Platinum_Works! about the same price. Other Amiga integrated packages are
lots more.
Don, my comments are not grist for the "rumor mill." I have placed them
here, in AmigaTech, because ostensibly its readers are more technically
informed than those of AmigaUser/Arts. If my comments were within the realm
of unsubstantiated rumors, then I would agree with you and I would censure
myself. However, I give them more credence… obviously, I am closer to
the source.
I want to repeat my respect for Commodore USA and Int'l. I want them to
hang tough and be strategic. I admire their guts for going after CDI with
CDTV.
We may not all be stockholders in the company, but we are all stakeholders.
I really like my Amiga 3000, as I have said before. I see
[ MORE ]
Hal" "…obviously, I am closer to the source". That sounds like "my
computer is better than your computer" or "my father can beat up your
father". Have your source make a direct public statement of fact —
anything less just drives the rumor-mongering.
-sja
Steve,
You're being a bit too silly. Reach for a higher plain. The point is: the
company is in the decision-making process over this new technology. Let's
tell Commodore how we feel. I do not expect or desire them to acknowledge
this thread. I do know that they will read it earnestly, as they have in
the recent past. Steve, tell the company what you want the future of Amiga
to be.
Hal Grigdesby Krannert Graduate School of Management Purdue University
– via Whap!
Hal, I know what the future of the Amiga will be. Spreading
unsubstantiated rumors only endangers that future. If someone inside CBM
is spreading rumors without authority they should be relieved of their
position.
Steve,
I respect you opinion on this matter, but I disagree with you. The greater
good is for the company to quietly read our dialogue without affirmative
comment one way or the other.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
That's "Reach for a higher plane".
Ben Williams – Graduate School Of Heckling
–Ben
Ben
it should be "Reach for a Higher plan." Where tha Amiga is concerned there
doesnt seem to be one.
wmc
Harold,
*** QUOTING ***
Microsoft Works is a critical product for education markets, e.g. K-12 and
collegiate. It is a wildly successful product for home users of both
MS-DOS machines and the Macintosh. It is fully integrated, unlike the
present Amiga offerings. (I am thinking of Platinum_Works! and the Gold
Disk offering for the 2000HD/P).
*** UNQUOTE ***
You've struck a nerve here. I am refering to sentence #3 in the above
quote. In response to that statement I can only say one thing:
THANK GOD!
(Dragging out the soap box…)
Integrated programs have NO PLACE on the Amiga. Period. Integrated
programs were designed specifically to meet the needs of computers that
could only one run program at a time and could not share data easily. Yes,
it is nice to have a word processor, spreadsheet, database and accounting
package that are all designed around each other, but what happens if you
don't like the word processor?
Specific case in point — Lattice/SAS-C and the LSE editor. The LSE editor
was designed to be an integral part of the Lattice (now SAS) C developing
environment. Programs could be run from within it; errors were flagged in
the file, etc. However, it was designed around memacs, a program that
makes me want to quit computing. Now, on a different computer you'd either
use LSE or give up the interactive environment. On the Amiga, thanks to
multitasking and ARexx, I can use Cygnus Ed Pro (or any other editor with
an ARexx port) and be "fully integrated".
If Window's "dynamic data exchange" ever is used properly, it can provide a
similar effect. OS/2 has Rexx and System 7 now has data sharing for
similar effects. Hopefully, together they will spell the demise of "fully
integrated" programs like MS-Works.
Programs like MS-WORKS are pigs in the respect that they try to do
everything well (pleasing all of the people all of the time). To do this
MS-WORKS and similar programs hog much of the systems resources, to say
nothing of RAM. Programs should do their main task as efficiently as
possible. If you want bells & whistles, fine, just don't make them part of
the main program (thus hogging RAM). You may use a thesaurus, spell
checker, grammar checker and print spooler with your setup, but I don't
want it hogging my system's resources. Data should be sent from the word
processor, via ARexx, to each individual program in turn. They can be made
memory resident if used often but otherwise they aren't loaded until
called. Memory resident routines sit quietly until something calls them.
My main word processor is Cygnus Ed, and I have a grammar checker and
spelling checker sitting on my hard disk. Since Cygnus Ed concentrates
just on text, it is much faster responding than something like Word Perfect
(which was a joke on the Amiga with it's super-slow screen updates). Spell
checking a document doesn't tie up my word processor, either.
If programs were designed to do one main job, and do it well, things would
be a lot easier for those of us who don't need all the bells & whistles.
It'd be easier for those who want them, too.
Final point: most biggie MS-DOS programs (MS-WORKS, Wordperfect, dBASE IV,
etc.) ship with anywhere from 5 to 25 disks and require a few megs of hard
disk space, to say nothing of RAM. I hope I never see that on an Amiga.
(Putting soapbox away.)
Not to ge on your case. You've a number of valid points, though I
seriously doubt the validity of Commodore pushing another machine. I think
you will see CBM push CDTV as a consumer unit; the A500 as a
home/educational machine and the A3000 series as the professional units. I
can see no good future for the A2000 other than as a case for a Toaster or
a BBS host with a lot of lines. The high density drive, 8-bit chip set and
16-bit sound will most likely be available for the A3000 series and up
only, since the limited bandwidth on the A500/2000 motherboard would
present a lot of problems. I can also see an Amiga 4000 based off of a
RISC chip with AmigaDOS 3.0 that is about 50% compatible with 2.04. I'd be
*very* happy is Commodore announced it's intention to build a RISC/6000
based machine and license the graphics library from Silicon Graphics. Yum!
-Chas
Harold,
MicroSoft is not known for quality products. Consider that MS-DOS
is one of their products and consider how many times it's been known to
totally trash a hard drive. I've had an MS-DOS machine at work for about 5
years now…I've had the HD go south strictly because of a DOS error 4 or 5
times. I've also had an Amiga for about that same amount of time…and
NEVER had the HD go south strictly because of the DOS.
Another example, AmigaBASIC was written by MicroSoft.
But be that as it may…I do realize that lots of people equate
MS-DOS with "quality" because it's what comes on the vast majority of
machines out there.
I do agree that you need packages "as good as" product X, Y or
Z…but you do not need X, Y or Z to be successful.
Don,
Have you ever heard the expression, "The customer is always right."?
Inspite of being an MSM candidate and a Desert Storm vet, I've sold over
$500,000 worth of Amigas to K-12 and collegiate markets over the past two
years. (It would have been higher except for Desert Storm).
My large clients (Indiana Department of Education, to be specific) are
crying for MS Works. It doesn't matter why they want, they want it. In
this case, the customer IS the expert. The competing platforms (IBM and
Apple) offer MS Works. IT IS A SIGNIFICANT SALES ISSUE!
Multitasking is not an excuse for not having truly integrated software. Is
the Amiga clipboard being used to its fullest potential by programmers? I
am not a programmer, but I know the clipboard on the MAC actually does
something.
Remember Don, Amiga is my favorite machine. But Commodore needs MS Works
not just for Indiana, but because it well also help them in other markets.
As a footnote, I'd say Jack Appleman (GM of Micro-Systems Software) is a
great guy. He's been instrumental in putting together school deals for me.
His firm markets Platinum_Works!. We've talked about its shortfalls, but I
get the impression he's not really interested in revamping it because
there's no serious competition.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Hal,
I've got exactly the opposite opinion of Jack Appleman…and an
even worse opinion of his daughter Ester.
Don
Don,
About Jack Appleman: I like him. I've done business with him via phone
and fax. I've not met him in person. He's a man of his word.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Hal,
You've obviously not had to deal with him then when he owes you
money.
Don
That's one of the major problems with the IBM PC industry, IMHO. The users
have been brainwashed into believing that anything associated with IBM,
Intel, and Microsoft is Quality. Those 3 companies have done more to hold
back advancements in PC technology during the last 10 years than any
other's that I can think of.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
Exactly; well said.
–Ben
John,
Remember you're talking to a businessman. Perceptions of quality are as
important as quality in fact. The customer's sophistication (or lack ofit)
are critical in product selection. Those who are new to computing are
fearful of large capital outlays without informed criteria for selection.
They either solicit help from friends or they go with an established name.
Whether the natural phenonenom is right or wrong, I can't say. All I can
say is it exists.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
I agree with you on some points Harold. The perception of quality, whether
it is real or not, is what drives the marketplace. But I'm not so sure I
want to see Microsoft Works ported to the Amiga, considering what they did
to AmigaBasic. Maybe they can have a well known 3rd. party developer port
it, as long as they don't impose so many restrictions that it comes out an
EXACT clone. If they don't use some of the special features of the Amiga
usually the port is junk, games or otherwise. Actually what I would like to
see from CBM, or a 3rd party, is a 386-25 Bridgeboard with VGA and good
hard drive access already built in, at a price that is the same as or less
than a equivalent IBM clone. That way if you want to run MS-Works, you have
the option to do so.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John,
About Amiga BASIC… what exactly was Microsoft's great sin? that it wasn't
020/030/040 compatible? Geez, it was written before those processors
existed. The Amiga product manager was responsible for specs. C= probably
paid a flat fee plus royalties to Microsoft for the product. C= probably
could have paid to have it upgraded and they decided against it. In my
book, the AmigaVision swap for AmigaBasic in some model configurations
makes sense. I doubt if many new users were hungering to do Basic language
programming anyhow. When was the last time you saw a Basic language
uploaded on CompuServe for the Amiga?
About Microsoft Works… I think Bill Gates and Company would turn out a
superb version of their program for the Amiga. It and Quicken packaged
with an A500DS would go along way toward having greater acceptance in the
home market.
Did you hear Ben go "ARRGH!"
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
P.S. My wife just delivered a beautiful baby girl named Lauren Marie. Came
into the world on Monday at 16:59. Seven pounds, fourteen and a half
ounces. She's our first and she's COOLER then HAM-E and a ULowell Board.
[Ben, don't even to try to counterpoint me on that one. :<)]
– via Whap!
There were several things wrong with AmigaBasic other than breaking the
rules so it won't work on a 32bit processor. The editor was a joke there
were several bugs that never were corrected, and it was much slower than
you would expect from most Amiga programs, even an interpreter.As far as
32bit processors not being around when AmigaBasic was created, well I have
an old set of 1983 "IC Master" books and the Motorola MC68020 is listed in
those, and may have been before that. I've worked with Microsoft since
about 1978 when I was doing some programming on a CP/M machine and have
never been impressed with their products or customer service.
But enough of this MS Bashing 8^) OK, where is my cigar? Congratulations
with the new baby girl!! And Ben is just going to have to accept the fact
that she is better than gettin a new Ham-E, or anything else for that
matter 8^)
John
John,
I thought about cigars, but who smokes anymore? How 'bout this?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
x x x
x It's a Girl!!! x x
x x x
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
She's a sweetheart, but what baby isn't?
About Microsoft, my principle "warm-fuzzy" is over Excel and Word for the
MAC. I have used Microsoft's AmigaBasic and agree with your comments, but
I think the chances would be really remote that Microsoft would hire the
same team to port MS-Works.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Thanks for the cigar Hal, I enjoyed it 8^) Ah yes, children can be
sweethearts, and then sometimes you feel like they are poccessed by the
devil himself 8^)
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
Happy Birthday Lauren Marie!
– Whapping from the North Coast Michael
Hal,
Congrats' on the baby girl! May she grow up in a non-MS<anything>
world! <grin>
Keith
Keith,
Can't wait to give her my hand-me-down 3000. (Read that as, "I can't wait
to buy another Amiga toy from C=.") After all, learning computing is
terribly important for a young lady who's four days old.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
John,
I couldn't have said it better.
[ continuation ]
lots of potential for the Amiga in markets where it's not presently a
mainstay. Irving Gould's principle responsibility as CEO is to increase
value for shareholders. We can better enable him to do that by helping him
not make decisions in a vacuum. Remember, every Amiga owner is a
stakeholder and we should, therefore, talk to the company.
Hal Grigdesby Krannert Graduate School of Management Purdue University
– via Whap!
Harold,
I see nothing wrong with telling a company what we want, I see
everthing wrong with us trying to tell a company how to get it.
Don
Don,
Whats wrong is CBM has never let the public know that the Amiga is capable
of the same things and more. So the fact that it can run MS Works, in the
publics mind, indicates lack of capability even if we leave the
compatibility issue out of it. wmc
Wayne,
Do you know anyone who bought a computer *strictly* on an ad? That
is, saw an ad, liked what they saw in the ad…walked into a store and
bought one off the shelf without any demo, questions, tests, etc.
Don
No, Don,
But I also don't know where to go to ask questions, see demos and get test
results etc for products that I have no idea exist. Thats where the ads
come in. It is also the 2nd great Amiga debachle – the dirth of dealers.
and CBM is DIRECTLY in control of that.
wmc
Don–
Your message hit a nerve with me, about knowing someone who bought a
computer *strictly* on an ad…I don't think I exactly qualify, but I must
come real close.
I was looking for a computer that would be graphically oriented; this
was in mid-1988. First, I started looking through the Computer Shopper,
and realized that PC's weren't gonna do it. Then, I bought MacUser and the
like, and realized that my pockets were way too shallow. Next magazine
stop was STart/Antic; the ST512/1024 was a real contender for my computer
bucks. I was all set to do an ST by mailorder (Lyco had the best prices at
the time), but three things happened: The price on the ST series went way
up (by about 30%), the price on an Amiga 500 series machine went down a tad
(making it a direct ST competitor), and a friend showed me an Amiga
magazine (AmigaWorld). I went into the dealer and made a cash deal with
him a couple of days later. I knew it was the machine for me…
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Jonathan,
If you had never before seen an A500, nor never talked to anyone
about one (and same with the ST)…would you still have bought it?
Don
Don..
I knew that I didn't want a PC or a Mac, but I did want a computer…but
if I had never seen an A500, nor talked to anyone about one, I wouldn't
know of its existence, would I?? So I guess that my answer is: nope, I
would have not bought one, I would have ended up with some Pathetic
Crap….
Jonathan
Jonathan – from Albany, NY, via whap!
Jonathan,
That was my point. You need to know something more than what's
printed in an ad. Ads simply are intended to pique your interest and let
you know what's available.
Any sensible person would at least talk to friends or others who
had at least seen one, or better yet…used one of the 'candidate'
computers.
Don
What's really scary is that a couple of Amiga users I've encountered who
have done ray-tracing are now casting about for "386 Super VGA" PCs that
could handle the job. For some reason they think the PC will be better,
even without knowing about the software options. If they have one-meg A500s
maybe so! But the sheer volume of PC advertising and editorial coverage has
got to make you wonder at how people can avoid getting caught up in it all.
>> Ron Legro / Milwaukee
via WHAP!
Wayne,
Now let's see if we can get Ben to understand that as well. The
marketplace's right course of action is determined by the success or
failure of various marketing departments. Their positioning strategies are
key to gaining marketshare.
Ben finds that hard to believe. He is a developer, so he looks a things
through a different set of eyes than we mere mortals who are just average
guys. Ben is a purist, which is commendable. He likes the strengths of
Amiga architecture. Most first time buyers have little interest in a
salesperson's preaching about hardware strengths.
Hal Grigdesby, Krannert Graduate School of Management, Purdue University
– via Whap!
Harold,
Actually, Ben and I are on the same track – the Amiga is a great
architecture, and software for it, notabley in DTP and DTV is now mature
enough to start being a serious alternative to "the other" platforms. The
frustration is that CBM wants to keep it a secret.
wmc