Attenion Believers!
194 messages in this thread
Attention Amiga developers and interested parties…
After speaking with Mike Levin (CSM hall of fame) tonight on CIS (and via the
phone), we have come to several conclusions about possible solutions to a
panic'd public and potential loss of the most powerful home computer made to
date (that's the Amiga folks). He suggested that I lead the attempt to
purchase the rights to the Amiga hardware. Rights that would be purchased by
all parties and made available to all parties.
I would like to hear from developers who would be interested in still
developing for the Amiga, or anyone who would like to support this effort in
general.
People can think what they want of me, my statements, my comments… to me,
that's been very good to see… my corporation, my products, and myself have
been changed a lot from the responses I have seen here, GEnie, and on
CompuServe. My persistance has paid off. Because of EMPLANT's success, I will
never have to work another day in my life.
I am willing to put everything on the line. I believe in this machine, the
platform, and the people (even though we bicker like a bunch of old hens
sometimes). On behalf of the Amiga's continued existance, I am asking for you
support. Let's all make some noise about the Amiga. Commodore kept it the best
computing secret of all time, I think it's time to let the cat of the bag.
I will be in contact with ALL of the major 3rd party Amiga peripheral
corporations tomorrow, also asking for their support. If we can somehow form a
public corporation and obtain the rights to the Amiga hardware, we can make the
Amiga work.
My goals for this project are…
Obtain information concerning current ownership rights of the Amiga hardware
design, and other important peripherals. From what information I have heard
(and have had gathered by nosey attorneys), the rights were transferred to
'trustees' for holding. If this is true, there very well may be some
interesting legal problems involved here, since the technology behind the Amiga
is the only real asset that Commodore Intl had left…that would leave an empty
shell for the creditors to pick through.
Purchase the rights from current ownership, or work with another corporation to
see that continued development and *gasp* advertising is done.
Contact major MAC and PC developers (Adobe, Aldus, etc.) and once again offer
to port their products to the Amiga at little or no cost. Once people see *us*
running the big boys software more efficiently than other platforms can, they
will think hard before buying that next MAC or PC system.
Continued developer support. I plan to have CATS revived, and I hope that
Carolyn and the rest of the original team will be interested in doing this.
Continued devlopment of new machines. One thing I have learned in producing
hardware is how to cut costs. EMPLANT is cheap to make… and it is *still*
made in the US (this is important to me). Another thing I learned is that the
short time I spent talking with Dave Haynie, he is alright in my book. We
chatted for about 30 minutes at one of the WOC shows, and he is as sincere
about the continued development as I am. I definately want Dave and the
original crew back working together. I would hate to see a bunch of new comers
(I am not oppose to new ideas brought out by new people), but right now we need
a dedicated team going to get things done in a flash. New people come with
success.
Remove the poor publicity. The only advertising Commodore got was bad. Dealers
wanted to kill them… developers wanted to kill them.. all due to the poor
management. The only way to do this is to rid the Commodore name.
So you're asking "what's in it for Jim?". Gratification. As I stated before,
I could wash my hands clean of this situation and walk. I don't want to.
There is a pile of money to be made for everyone, and more importantly a
computer to be saved from extinction. I know a lot of Amiga developers have
made themselves rich with the Amiga, and some would like to forget it… I
think that is selfish. I for one, am willing to give back to what made me
where I am today.
So, in closing, I would like to thank those people who have sent me
incouragement letters, and even hate mail. 🙂 I am stubborn (I think you'll
*all* agree on this one… perhaps a usenet first?) and I can use this to our
advantage, obtain the rights to the machine, make these rights publically
available (anyone could produce the machine ala PC clones), and see this thing
through… or I'll end up on the street trying…
If you are a developer, no matter how small and you have an interest in
supporting the Amiga, please FAX my office (602) 453-6407 (we have boxes of
fax paper). If we do not succeed in obtaining the rights to the Amiga, and
someone else does… a huge list of developers wanting to support the platform
would be a big incentive to keep the product alive. I really don't care who
makes the machine, as long as it is made (and promoted this time around).
Thanks for your attention,
Sincerely,
Jim Drew – Utilities Unlimited International, Inc.
jdrew@cryo.cryogenic.com
72662,14 – CIS
j.drew2 – GEnie
Jim, I do strategic planning in marketing with a focus on the "info highway"
and a variety of blue chip accounts. If there is anything in my skill set that
you could use (advertsing, market research, business case development, trends)
please let me know. The Amiga is a Community as much as a machine. It is by far
the liveliest, most generous and savviest forum on CIS (I've been trolling IBM,
Windows and Apple). You have my support in any way I can help.
Uhm, yeah, that's it! Let's just purchase the rights, tell Aldus/Adobe to
port, develop new machines and remove the negative publicity! Why didn't CBM
think of that? And revive Cats! Rum-tum-tugger! Heck, you can make the
costumes! And Sue can silk-screen the t-shirts! And we can make a stage out
in the barn! And you were there, and you, and you!
John,
Unless that was tongue in check (I didn't see any <G> or :-)'s) that
was totaly uncalled for.
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
Tongue in cheek, no – incredulous, yes.
The other day, a journalist called me for quotes regarding the demise of
Commodore… I had two. One, I was surprised at the number of people who were
shocked by the news. I thought this news was inevitable, and I'd "gotten over
it" about three years ago. Yes, I was sad when the writing was on the wall.
Now? It's like hearing that your favorite movie star died three years ago.
Still sad, but not the best time to write that final fan letter.
Two, I remarked that I thought there would be more Amiga developers than
ever… this was based on a post of mine you might've seen here a week or two
ago. Far too many Amiga fans have a "rescue the princess" mentality. Now that
Commodore is dead, there are people out there who will be more motivated than
ever to develop for the Amiga, to help "save her." I think Jim's post was a
fine example of this. Even if Emplant is/was successful, I don't think he's
made enough money to cover CBM's debt, revive the patient, and have enough left
over to "live forever without having to work again."
John,
It just seemed unduly sarcastic. Jim, like many of us have substatial
investments in our computers (he more so than most). Jim seems willing to
do what he can to help revitalize our platform. I am not saying he can
but he sure shouldn't be chastised for wanting to try. He has more
resources than most and if he choices to use those resources trying to
resurect the Amiga, more power to him. He will surely get my help (humble
and meager as it may be), and quite a few others. Weather it will be
enough? we'll just have to wait and see. With all due respect, I still
think your remark was uncalled for.
…Steve
====>>> Motorola 68030 Inside <<<====
I don't see your point. I'll concede that Commodore is dead. I'll concede
that the Amiga MAY be dead. Both are undeniable facts. However, I don't see
why those of us who still use and and enjoy our Amigas can't continue to get
some benefit from them for quite some time. If Jim Drew and other developers
wish to be optimistic and do everything they can to revive the Amiga or at
least keep it alive a while longer, I say we should support them all the way.
We may just be chasing a dream, but it is a worthy dream.
I still use and enjoy my Amiga, and a good share of my business depends on the
Amiga. I think the best thing any developer that remains in the Amiga market
can do to help the *Amiga* (not Commodore, which we agree is dead) is to keep
doing what they're doing. I'd recommend they look to other markets for
long-term survival. Using cash from one market to help keep Amiga products
alive sounds rather positive to me. I don't think Jim's post was realistic.
It seems like I've heard this story before: dramatic events cause someone to
step forward declaring "I am in control here now." They're still laughing at
Haig.
"They're still laughing at Haig."
Is that the same A. M. Haig, Jr. listed on the Commodore Board in 1993?
Jerry
That's the one. Alex has been in bed with Ali and Gould for a long time.
Is that the same Alexander Haig whom my father voted for in the Repub. primary
a half-dozen years ago? (He also said that he voted for Gus Hall, by-the-by, so
go figure.) It must charitably consider it to be a further demonstration of
directors failing to represent the interests of the shareholders.
I must admit that I always felt C= to be untustworthy simply because of the
Bahaman incoporation. I've been there – its small-scale crony capitalism
forces small businesses to bend in strange ways to make a profit and stay
legal. Nice casinos, though. Small ones.
-Vree in VA
He voted for Gus Hall and Alexander Haig? Talk about multitasking
platforms!
I'd say Gus Hall was a protest vote. Too bad Al Haig didn't offer one at C=.
-Vree in VA
There he is again, Al Haig. Some years ago I was working with a Fortune 10
Telecom co. looking
around at 0nline info service vendors. I was impressed with what was then
QLink. Very hard to get
details. Offices near CIA suburbs. Listed Al Haig as principal. Never answered
our inquiries. Now known as America Online…!
One and the same. Scary, huh? There's a conspiracy here somewhere… Nixon
dies, CBM dies and both are buried on the same day, Haig on the board, Gould
enjoying tax benefits. Hmm, how can we work Hoover and Oswald into this?
"One and the same. Scary, huh? There's a conspiracy here somewhere… Nixon
dies, CBM dies and both are buried on the same day, Haig on the board, Gould
enjoying tax benefits. Hmm, how can we work Hoover and Oswald into this?"
Yeah. Pretty soon we'll be hearing about old Germans from Argentina, witches
dancing under the blue moon, how the CIA conspired to keep the Amiga from
succeeding and a thousand other stories.
Good entertainment, though. <G>
Jerry
<g>
That's it the CIA has shares in IBM and this is all a giant plot.
No AMIGA owners should drive near any bridges – what that chapaquidic or
chaperon or commodore 🙂
–> Television without lights is Bad Radio 🙂
–> WES TATTERS, BRIZ 31, AUSTRALIA –<
"That's it the CIA has shares in IBM and this is all a giant plot."
You know, now that you mention it, it really does sound logical, doesn't it?
And I bet it's really a joint effort between the secret successor to the KGB.
Hey, those old reactionaries in the former-USSR sure don't want Amigas in the
Motherland.
And, now that I think of it, the Mossad probably has a stake in this as well.
Geez and all this time I thought the conspiracy theories had no basis in
reality. I should have known better! <G>
Jerry
You may be on to something.
But remember, Haig is almost a hero to me for leaving the Reagan regime
under protest for their fascist policies. They were to far to the right
even for this old Nixon warrior (who was also rumored to be 'Deep
Throat').
To get Hoover and Oswald into this requires that we invoke the George
Bush/Dallas/Cuban Invader connection. What recent republican presidents
did Gould contribute generously to? Why has he made no comment about his
involvement with Jeb Bush and the Silverado S&L he raided? Was he the one
who laced Elvis' baloney&cheese when Hoover thought he was becoming an
'uncontrolled asset'? Have you ever seen Gould and Francis Gary Powers
together?
`;-o (cool new perplexo-smiley)
Right, I noticed his name there too. The same Haig that was pres of an
american bank bought out by a certain middle eastern banking consortium I
believe; one described as a mafia clearing house by the FBI.
Commodore must have had some interesting boardroom meetings.
Oklahoma City, OK
"The same Haig that was pres of an american bank bought out by a certain
middle eastern banking consortium I believe; one described as a mafia clearing
house by the FBI."
I think you might be thinking of Bert Lance, one Jimmy Carter's associates. A
bank owned by Lance was the first acquired by BCCI. I don't recall Haig being
involved with any aspect of the BCCI scandal, but I didn't follow it very
closely in any event.
One thing about all these wil accusations and fantastic plans regarding
Commodore intrigues me: how many of these people alleging gross improprieties
against Gould and others were actually Commodore stockholders?
Strikes me that a lot of people are just throwing stones – and yet they never
availed themselves of the relative ease of just purchasing a share or two of
Commodore stock, gaining legal standing and even joining the "Commodore
Shareholder's Movement".
By the same token, I wonder how much and how often these mourners purchased
Commodore equipment. I get the feeling that a lot of people bought a machine
several years back and now count themselves among the "truly loyal", even
though they chose not to purchase newer machines as Commodore offered them.
Be interesting to learn the answers to these questions, especially from those
who are the fiercest at putting down anyone who doubts the survivability or
"resurection-ability" of the Amiga.
Jerry
Hey Jerry
>those who are the fiercest at putting down anyone who doubts the
??survivability or "resurection-ability" of the Amiga.
I sure HOPE you don't put me in that catagory. I'm rooting for the
secretive holding company in the Dutch Antilles to sell Amiga to Mitsui or
any other yellow horde with enough money to make it succeed, and nothing
will make me happier than to see the GMBH office start running things if
that happens. They did a hell of a lot better job than the US offices.
>Be interesting to learn the answers to these questions
I bought a C64, a C128, A1000, several A500's which I still own, AMIX,
A2000, and I would have bought a 4000/40 if they hadn't screwed it up. If
the A4000T is ever somehow released I will own one, depend on it. But not
to keep a company in business that failed it's user base, only because I
really like AmigaDos. I disliked Commodore and hope they get sold to
another company with the common sense to sell the Amiga for what it is.
Tom
Oklahoma City, OK
"I sure HOPE you don't put me in that catagory."
I'm not putting anyone into any category. Just wondering aloud where people
are coming from.
Surely some allowance for differences of opinion must be made for a) people
who actually put their money where their mouth is and purchased Commodore
stock, b) purchased Commodore products in the recent past and aren't basing
their claims on a machine they bought in 1985, c) developers who earn their
daily bread from their efforts and are facing the loss of the Amiga market
near-, mid- or long-term and d) any and all other groups.
I spent about $20K on Amiga-related products in the past year and am more
concerned about the continuing availability of spare parts more than anything
else for the 4000. Considering the present state of repair and support services
for the Amiga, I think it's a valid concern.
I wonder, by the way, if anyone has ever seen a claim by Mike Levin as to how
many shares of Commodore stock he has been empowered to vote. Strikes me that
you could judge the success or failure of his Commodore Shareholders Movement
by that measure. My suspicion is that Levin represents mighty few shares, but I
am open to correction on that if someone can come up with a specific number.
The opportunity to influence Commodore's policies was open to every one and
any one with a few bucks to plunk down for even a single share – and I get the
impression that most of the people proclaiming these grand conspiracy theories
and hurling charges at various and sundry don't own even that single share. I
think they missed whatever opportunity they legitimately had to complain about
Commodore's policies in a venue where it would have done any good.
Another thing to consider with all these imprecations about Commodore being
flung is that to my knowledge no shareholder ever brought suit against
Commodore for the mismanagement everyone talks about. Considering how many
lawyers there are who specialize in this kind of case, often bringing it for
themselves, I find that kind of interesting.
Personally, I just hope my Amiga keeps running for a long, long time without
needing service or replacement parts. In the meantime, you can bet that I'll
constantly be keeping an eye out for a replacement system.
Jerry
My thoughts.
You are correct Jerry, it was Burt Lance. I worked for the bank they owned
illegaly (First American), well, allegedly owned… A lot of good people lost
their jobs over that and the responsible people seemed to just get away…. Oh
well, now if only C= would have survived or at least been bought by a company
with decent management!
Well, I for one, being a newer system owner, waited as long as I did due
to Commodore's low flight plan over the terrain of the past few years.
And you can't really blame those who haven't supported Commodore for
similar reasons. Many, the video types, had too. If the Amiga survives
in some form, I am more lilely to buy a new system when it arrives, if
those who own it at least FAKE a concern for their customers.
If Commodore, in one form or another, survives, and runs in the same
haphazard "what can we do to make money this week" attitude then I will
not buy on the Amiga platform.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Quit"?
"And you can't really blame those who haven't supported Commodore for
similar reasons."
Not really a matter of "blame". Just difficult for me to understand people
who defend the platform and yet haven't purchased the newer machines that could
have given Commodore the cash flow and incentive to push harder. A speculation,
really.
Jerry
The Amiga will survive for years to come in my basement thank you:) HarryM
I won't comment on how "realistic" Jim's posting was. I will say that the
sarcasm in your initial response was a bit uncalled for. If you think Jim is
out in left field, how about responding with another suggestion that you think
will work. Right now, the Amiga market needs new ideas.
Anyway, I don't wish to migrate to another platform just yet. I'm behind any
developer who wishes to continue support for the Amiga. I will buy their
products and sell them in my store. I realize that migration may be necessary
one day. However, my Amigas still work fine just as they are and I will
continue to use them for as long as possible.
Commodore is dead. Thank God.
The Amiga isn't dead, yet. If ideas like Jim's will give it another chance, I
think they're worth a try.
New ideas here's one-
write letters to companies like sega or nintendo or whoever stating the
reasons why they should buy the amiga or parts of it and show them
the loyal following it has. If no one is interested just ask what do they
think of the amiga , then print this information on the forum for
the people to read. Also see what the mac thinks of the mutitasking
of the amiga and could they use it to fight against ibm(only if all
else fails to bring the amiga back to life should we do this)
aay you wanted an idea you got one.
Though I agree with you that the message read a bit like a fantasy, let me
suggest this:
1. In order to save the "Amiga", not Commodore, to hell with Commodore.
A group of developers may be able to raise enough investment capital to
purchase the technology at the liquidation proceedings.
.
. Sound Impossible? Consider that the technology will be sold to the
. highest bidder. Consider that this technology would not be saddled
. with Commodore's debt. Consider that there are enough companies that
. depend on the Amiga for their continued existance. Those companies
. include NewTek, SCALA, MacroSystems US, GVP, etc.
.
2. To save the Amiga means merely to acuqire the technology and allow
those who are interested to 'license' it from the owners. Allowing
Newtek, SCALA and CEI to produce computers. Licensing is the way to
recoup the costs of purchasing the technology.
.
3. I believe that there are some ex-Commodore employees who wouldn't mind
working for companies that develop Amiga specific products. Can CATS be
reformed as it once was? No. But then again, how effective was the old
organization anyway?
.
4. I don't believe for a minute that the Amiga will become mainstream.
What I do believe is that it is possible for a group to purchase rights to
a technology and continue that technology if the group wants to do it.
.
I applaud Jim for attempting to lead such an organization. It is my guess
though, that he needs to find professional representation and have some
really good sales people that can sell the idea to those with the
checkbooks. In my mind, Mike Levin is the right person to be a catalyst
for such an undertaking. I think UU can participate by being one of the
first to sign up and push money into the bucket.
.
I do think your posting was uncalled for, but I understand your point.
.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
You'll have a tough time getting a tableful of Amiga developers to settle a bar
bill, much less buy a pile of technology worth anywhere from hundreds of
thousands to millions of dollars.
Unless they take over Commodore's role as a somewhat even-handed maker of
computers who didn't play favorites, this imaginary consortium will not be a
general-purpose computer maker. They'll be a Toaster maker, or a kiosk box
maker, or a set-top box-maker. What do I mean by playing favorites? I mean
they'd somehow need to be able to pay for development of new features that
didn't have a specific investor's schemes in mind – or the other investors have
legit reasons to flee.
the both of us. 🙂
I think I've got human nature and history on my side. Look at the other
attempts of group-think attempted in the Amiga market: the developer's
association and the shareholder's association. Where did they go, what did
they do? Although I had several friends in both groups, I don't think they did
much. I had plenty of other Amiga-related friends who were constitutionally
opposed to those kinds of committee-minds, and their lack of participation
didn't hurt them a bit. For that matter, it didn't hurt me either. Maybe it
helped, I didn't waste my time on those acitivities.
This effort however, has something that Commodore was lacking.
Passion.
Any effort will pay off better than no effort at all. If your not for it,
then be quite. It won't hurt you one bit if this succeeds or fails.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Quit"?
I think Amiga Corp and CBM and CATS were full of people with passion. Some of
them started fresh out of high school, wrote terminal programs for the C-64,
and started in the mail room for all I know… (Higgie, this one's for you.
🙂
I think passion for the Amiga is one of the reasons the machine has been as
successful as it has been. There were plenty of passionate people at all
stages of the Amiga's life…
Just no one in charge with such passion… They seemed to be more the "How
much can we milk their passion for today" types….
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Quit"?
John,
its not what the technology is worth, but what the Trustees are offered
for it. I don't think they would be allowed to simply keep or throw away
the technology because the best offer wasn't high enough. I might just
offer 'em $50.00 for all Amiga rights, and see if anyone ends up
outbidding me.
With commodore gone, the Amiga can finally take off ;-}
"I don't think they would be allowed to simply keep or throw away
the technology because the best offer wasn't high enough."
If they function in any way like US bankruptcy courts, they have an absolute
right to refuse to sell for a variety of reasons, including the presumed
competency of the bidder.
Maybe you remember the story of the New York Post a few months back where the
court was being urged to reject the high bidder because of character and
competence issues?
In short, the trustee must propose to the court what they think is best and
that does not necessarily always include a sale of all the estates property.
If the secured creditors get the holdings, there is absolutely no compulsion
for them to sell anything. In fact, particularly with technology, there may be
many reasons for them not to do anything with the alleged asset for fear of
future lawsuits for nondisclosure and other issues. Technology, in particular,
is a hard property to sell out of bankruptcy.
Most people have never been involved with or followed one of these cases.
Believe me, they are not as simple or as cut-and-dried as some people would
have you think.
Jerry
BTW, John, just saw your multiplatform Interchange card in one of those PC
advertising decks that I seem to receive in endless number. Hey, I didn't
know you were that far along into other platforms. I'm a registered owner
of Interfont, but kept the card anyway. Hey, ya never know; I may win the
lottery and be able to afford an SGI workstation some day.
John –
> Even if Emplant is/was successful, I don't think he's made enough money
> to cover CBM's debt,…
Ah, but he doesn't HAVE to. He has to convince trustees, or a court, that
what he is offering is fair market value for what he wants to buy of
Commodore's assets: the hardware base.
. . . . JimDoc, on AutoPilot
He won't get the hardware base. That is already in the process of being
dismantled and disposed of. He may be able to get rights and drawings and
code. Thats a long way, lots of staff, dollars, and time before any
product ends up on your desk from it. Most of the potential investors, if
the numbers are run, will find it is cheaper and shorter to cross over
than to try to manufacture their own computer, prticularly when it is
managed by committee.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Oh, Wayne, you know all that doesn't matter… he's got Vision. 🙂
AmigaVision? 😉
..DonovaN
I wonder how much of the Amiga hardware would be necessary to produce a
viable Amiga clone (or replacement). I could envision a backplane with
Zorro III slots holding a 3rd party display card, CPU board, multi/IO and
RAM cards. New logic on board or on a card would support industry standard
floppy drives, keyboards, and possibly provide some replacement for
Paula's sound fuctions. Wouldn't help the Toaster folk though….
-Jim
MOS via Autopilot & Amiga
Actually, since (according to Lew Eggebrecht, who should have known)
the A5000 was going to use the PCI bus, all one would really have to make
is an "AGA Card" to stick in a next-generation PC (I would imagine).
Where do you get this information?
Not. It is real easy to take the right kind of files and give them to the
right kind of manufacturing outfit and get back complete computers.
How do you think Scotland (can't remember the name of the damn company)
produced A1200s for C=?
—
Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
Unrelated, but weren't Scotland 1200s enormously defect-prone?
Paul
The first run was. Several C= engineers for several weeks at a time
straightened them out and noticibly increased the supply of 15 year old
single malt in West Chester.
—
Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
Hey! I've got a "Scotland" A1200, one of the first to be imported into the
states and it has worked just fine for the last 1.5 years, thank you.
So, you're lucky. I have a newer one and the joyport is busted a little
bit.
Paul
>> So, you're lucky. I have a newer one and the joyport is busted a little
bit.
Is that like being a little bit pregnant, or semi dead?
I'll bet they produced the machines with good oversight, communication and
technical consulting with someone who was intimate with the design
process. If those folks are scattered to the four winds, the "restart"
process will not be smooth, efficient of quick even if just for the "why
did they do it that way – lets do it this way (time passes) Oops! Thats
why they did it that way!
Case in point! Challenger accident. NASA violated its own rule that
Lockheed would have to capture 80% of the existin Rockwell launch team in
order to assume the launch processing contract. In my group (Ground Launch
Sequencer and Integration) responsible for the integration of all systme
fucntions and orbiter/gound operations for the last two hours of the
countdown, of the 14 people at Kennedy that worked in Rockwell for me, the
4 more from Marting Marietta and 2 more from USBI that were on my team,
only six stayed and they averaged less than two years on the job. That
was representative of all the Launch team engineering groups. So, that
God-awful day, someone somewhere said the same thing! (Why on earth would
anyone put an ambient temperature limit as a launch commit criteria –
override it – go for launch).
You can't measure experience and continuity in a spreadsheet but it sure
as shooting has an impact on the outcome.
wmc – via Autopilot!
If we want to discuss something interesting and more meaty then we should start
guessing at how much this asset known as "Amiga" will actually sell for.
What's it worth? And what exactly constitutes "it"?
It's going to be tough to revive. Think of all the information that was only
stored and recorded in the minds of the software and hardware people… and
the new buyer gets a magtape backup of the revision control computer.
I once worked on a project from Atari that was once put on ice, packed into
boxes, and shipped 'cross country to the the new buyer. It was a mess. We're
deciphering magtape labels, calling every "Nicholson" in certain Silicon Valley
towns, searching for obscure computers to resuscitate software…
If I read correctly, he is not calling for the revival of CBM, but the
revivial of the _Amiga_. I soured on the Amiga big-time when C= would not
honor my A4000's warranty to repair factory defects; After 6 years of
enthusiasm and then seeing Gold Service cut off and "outsourced" I knew
that if I were to ever buy an Amiga again, it would be from someone other
than Commodore (and only so long as that company had nothing to do with
Irving Gould and the rest of the Commodore upper-crust).
-Chris
I'm sorry to have to resort to this, but I think you should just SHUT UP!
That is all the keystrokes I will waste on you!
-=Andrew=-
AAAHHH BUDD if he was to listen to you he'd probably have to work for the
rest of his life and we wouldn't have the emplant.
How's minimum wage these days. And you, and you ….!#$$$@*$$!!!!
John…
Like most of your writing over the years, I don't feel terribly enlightened
by what you've written here. Leave it to you to try and dampen any enthusiastic
spark that may come out of this rather bleak situation.
Is this your way of helping out?
Jim
If I'm not enlightening you, then you must be as smart as me, huh? I think Ben
posted some enthusiastic messages on this topic, for example – recognition that
CBM's been effectively dead for a long time, and that it really doesn't make
much difference to anyone who's been in the market for the past two-three
years. But claiming that now is the time to revive CBM? That's not even
cheerleading. It's hallucination, self-inflation, imagination… not courage.
It'll be fascinating to be proved wrong on this one.
Like Ben, this recent news about CBM has no effect on our plans for Amiga
products. Market demand drove us before this, and it'll drive us after this,
too. I've got enough to do with Syndesis, I can't try to save CBM, too. As
many people have pointed out, even the parts might not be a safe investment for
third parties. I'm not saying the Amiga market is dead. I'm sure I'll be able
to visit this forum five years from now, and you might still be arguing with me
by then. 🙂
You can deflect it any way you choose, John. But the basic fact is, someone
here is trying to do something worthwhile, and you're just dumping all over it.
Jim
If you can explain what Drew is trying to "do", and tell me with a straight
face that it's even possibly achievable, then we have some common ground to
discuss. Were you an early adopter of the Emplant, too?
>>It's hallucination, self-inflation, imagination…<<
John,
It's called 'VISION' and it's what makes people heroes, and famous, and
successful… and yes, sometimes broke and silly looking. But poeple with
vision deserve our support. Frnakly, when I first about the Emplant board
and all of UU's claims I thought it was a hoax… especially after
Sybil… but somebody's vision paid off quite nicely, to all of our
benefit… so what the hell, I say 'go for it Jim' and you should be
nice to Jim… 'cause if he is successful he's not going to let you play
with his new Amigas when he's building them! <g>
And he shouln't let him play with his amigas when he's finished
building them. Matter of fact john should start practicing eating words
because he has alot to eat.
>>…because he has alot to eat.<<
Well, I don't know about that. John can chew them up and spit them out
with the best of us. <g>
Common guys … I realize that emotions are running high but let's try to
keep a bit of civility. The sharing of ideas is important — bickering
and name calling do not accomplish anything other than obscure any good
point that may be made.
-sja
Whadyousay 'bout my muddah?
don't take me serious not one bit I see this thing as one big soap opera
and I'm having fun with it as I'm learning the fate of the amiga. I'm a
new yorker so that kind of talk is normal.
>>Matter of fact john should start practicing eating words because he has
alot to eat.
Maybe so, but that remains to be seen. If this is to work, the zealotry
that tags behind the Amiga name needs a rest…. I'll do whatever my
little po' a&& can to help out.
Sweep floors maybe? <g>
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Quit"?
Jim won't let me play his reindeer games? Gee, he has all the "vision" of
other well-established friend leaders like Stalin and Idi Amin. You prove my
point. Although CBM did have favorites, they didn't prevent those out of favor
from buying machines or becoming or staying developers.
>>…he has all the "vision" of other well-established friend
leaders like Stalin and Idi Amin.<<
Care to explain that bizarre comment?
>>You prove my point.<<
Yeah, right. <hhmmmpph>
>>Although CBM did have favorites, they didn't prevent those out
of favor from buying machines or becoming or staying developers.<<
It was a joke, John… a yuck (did you miss the <g>?). Don't let your
cynicism get in the way of your sense of humor… and for chr*st sake
don't let me 'speak' for Jim.
I saw the grin, but I'm dead serious! If a third party steps in to buy
Commodore or the Amiga technology (whatever), and they're doing it to save
their own investment (Scala, NewTek, etc.) then I'm sure they're going to play
favorites to a much greater degree than CBM ever did. I don't view that as a
positive situation. It will be very frustrating. Of course, we could debate
that this savior third party might have an interest in handing out the
technology to all comers.
I know, you're not speaking for Jim.
John,
Now I can finally see where you're coming from, and I I can understand it.
But I don't think you understood jim's intent, or you have just read in to
it more than was there.
Jim Drew stated that he wanted to make an effort to obtain the 'rights' to
the technology so that they could be available to any developer who wnats
to make use of them. I don't think he sees himself/UU bulding Amiga's…
that's not his thing. But he would like to make the technology available
to anyone who wants to build an Amiga clone. Wouldn't you like to see an
Amiga laptop? How about a 5000T?
I get the impression that Jim figures if enough people will build boxes of
various shpaes and sizes, all utilizing AmigaDos and the proprietary chip
set, then he and other 3rd party developers will continue to have a market
for their wares. He would. You would. We all would.
And you find fault in this… or worse, envision a conspiracy? Come on…
if had announced his efforts two weeks from now after having time to
'carefully plot' his scheme I might be suspicious… but the very nature
of his post indicated that no such plan was in the works. It sounded like
a sincere (maybe naive, maybe not) plea for support.
Didn't your mom ever tell you that if you don't have anything nice to say
you shouldn't say anything at all? <g>
Oh puh-LEEEZE! You really think SCALA, NewTek, and UU, can survive on a
small and getting smaller userbase?
And just how many units does SCALA sell? Last time I check, they supply
the software for US, the end-user, to develop our own ideas and thoughts.
As for favoritism if, by some perverted chance you are even half-way
right, who cares? It at least shows cooperation with an outside 3rd
party!
Get a grip.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Quit"?
Woah… wait a minute…
The last damn thing we need here is a bunch of fighting… I am working 20+
hours a day on this project. I have suspended all of my involvement with my
own company right now until this goes one way or another.
John, I must have missed something you posted… I don't play favorites to
anybody, anytime. You are welcome to your opinions and beliefs. I want the
Amiga saved from being parted out. I now have the support of more than 1,000
other Amiga developers, TV stations, production studios, corporations, etc.
etc. We now have the necessary means (financially and more importantly,
politically) to pull this event off.
I hope you still will consider the Amiga as a viable source of revenue for the
future.
Let's all be nice, we're fighting for a common cause. 🙂
Stalin and Idi Amin? I don't see Jim massacring people. That comment
demands explanation.
Paul – Minus Pins!
No, I didn't mean to say he's killing people. I made that comparison to name
other people who've "played favorites" to the detriment of many others. It was
in the context of the hypothetical situation where some small group of Amiga
developers gained control of the Amiga technology. I think it's likely they'd
somehow restrict the fruits of their efforts. To put it another way, I think
it's unlikely they'd want to work for other people without pay.
Ah, I see your point about favourites – it's definitely a real potential
problem. However Stalin, at least, is much more famous as a monstrous
butcher than as anything else. So your comparison was not immediately
obvious to me.
Paul
Are you blaming this closed circle on your failures?
Is this is what is motivating your diatribe. I knew you weren't just being
cynical, I couldn't figure out the motive. Just because you felt left out
of a priveleged few doesn't mean you have try and dump on a new plan of
success.
Selfishness is a poor source of motivation. We told you why interchange
plus wasn't so successful. Don't blame it on delusion and it's twisted
path that it will send you on.
If you view a fellow developer as Hitler, and his plans as personal attack
on you, I think it would be best to step out of the process till you
regain a realistic view. Jealousy should fuel innovation and
determination, but not a negative and spiteful attack.
I always enjoyed your assessment of the Amiga and it's community. I wish
you the best….
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
John,
I don't understand why you are so bitter about the Amiga being saved. I can
assure you that as long as I am involved with this projects, there isn't a
wallet big enough to persuade me. I don't care who might try it, but they
would be in for a rather rude awakening… or I would be assassinated… wow..
hope it doesn't come to that! 😉
John,
Come on …. Jim Drew has made some rather (seemingly) outlandish
statements in the past, but, from what _I_ remember, he's been proved
right on all of them (well, Sybil is an exception).
After years of ReadySoft saying Mac emulation couldn't be done as an Amiga
task, Jim said it could and then did it.
Jim made some outrageous claims for the '060 a few weeks ago … he was
soundly ridiculed. When Moto publically released their announcement, he
was proved correct again.
He claims to have 486 emulation for the Emplant on June 1st. I'm
convinced it'll happen.
Do I believe he will be successful in gaining control of the Amiga? No (I
think it's too late, the deals were cut before the "voluntary
liquidation"). Do I wish him well and support, in any way I can, his
desire and commitment to attempt this effort? Wholeheartedly.
I supported the CSM, altho I gave them no chance in h*ll to succeed. Why?
Because it very important to try, to state your goals, and then do
everything in your power to accomplish them. Whining and complaining,
anyone can do that, as has been demonstrated in many recent threads.
-sja
As far as I know, Drew's products work well. They appear successful, from what
I've read here on CIS. I don't own any of them, personally, but an Emplant is
at least in the top five on my Amiga wish list, if I'll buy anything for them
in the future.
Like a lot of entreprenuers, I have a rabid allergic reaction to proposals that
involve shared funding, committees and people overflowing with vision.
Although I didn't think the shareholder movement had a snowball's chance
against wheeler-dealers like Gould, I don't think I ever spoke up against them,
much less do anything to stand in their way. Jim's first posting seemed a bit
too optimistic to me, so this time I responded.
Although I'm not going to hand him my wallet, I do wish him well on this
project…
Not any more than they prevented those who were in favor from buying
machines or becoming developers.
John, I think you may have hurt some peoples feelings. These are trying
times, I want you to think about what you've done, and when you're ready
to apologize you can come out of your room and have dinner.
I have a sign in my office that says "Your mother always told you to share.
She was wrong." 🙂 So who do you think killed Kennedy?
So you're one of the suckers who think It was actually Kennedy who took
the Headshots from the AFL/CIO guys in the 2nd limo.
->So who do you think killed Kennedy
See my previous quote – If we find out who killed the AMIGA – all
will be revealed 🙂
:: How's my DRIVING – 100036,174 – ON AUTOPILOT ::
:: WES TATTERS, BRIZ 31, AUSTRALIA ::
What he's trying to DO, is get something going that's positive. People like
you, who have nothing better to do than dump on everything, are the kinds of
people who are obstacles to these types of things.
I don't particularly CARE whether Jim's vision is exceptionally lofty or not,
and neither should you, dammit. He'll find out in fairly short order what is
doable, and what isn't. He doesn't need you to dump all over him before he even
gets started.
Why would you be so quick to discourage something like this? I don't understand
your motives at all.
Jim
If anyone's got the power to do what Jim claimed he's going to do, then my
opinion doesn't mean a hill of beans. Even if I could sway everyone within
eyeshot to my line of thinking, it wouldn't matter. Convincing Adobe/Aldus to
port will take superhuman powers. Ignoring me is well within the power of mere
mortals. It's not as if I'm actually *doing* something to confound his effort.
I'm just talking about it. Are you disagreeing with what I'm saying, or are
you just upset that I'm saying something that isn't as chipper as you'd like?
John,
Convincing Adobe and Aldus to port their software is quite simple… you port
it for them at NO cost to them. I have several hundred GOOD programmers at my
disposal to use for this task.
Would you turn down an offer to have your entire product line ported to the MAC
or IBM at no cost to you? I am sure that Adobe, Aldus, Quark, and other
companies would be happy to simply package up existing manuals and sell to a
completley virgin platform… especially when people see the performance
difference gained by the Amiga's superior architecture.
I appreciate your support, and I do understand your feelings about groups
running a business… that sucks…but there is strength in numbers and I don't
feel that the Amiga developers are the type of people that would get power
crazy too fast. I sure haven't.
As I'm sure you know, development and porting costs are only a small fraction
of the "cost" of an Amiga version of PhotoShop. I've examined their plug-in
specification, so I can assure you that they have a portable scheme for moving
their code from place to place. Subsequent costs of sales, marketing,
advertising, manual printing, new boxes, etc. will far exceed the cost of the
port. If they can't expect a return on investment, they won't do it. Not to
mention that I doubt they'd let their code out-of-house, or that they wouldn't
want to distract their developers from the SGI and PowerPC versions of
PhotoShop. Even if all this came true, there's no way the sales figures of the
Amiga version would come anywhere near the sales (and ROI) of their other
platforms. (And I won't even get into piracy. 🙂
John,
The whole point is that they (Aldus et. al.) would make money out of it
and there would be lots of Amigas sold as a result of the available software.
———————————————-Don- via Whap!
Umm….I hate to bring this up. Word is that a couple of months ago someone
made that exact offer on QUicken, the business program. A *free* port to the
Amiga all they had to do was license the name or take control when it was done.
Intuit said no. I don't know why, but they said no.
I think Steve Ahlstrom might know something about this….or at least back me
up that I saw it here (somewhere/somewhen) on CIS. I remember seeing his name.
-Chas
Charles,
Yes, I know the person who made the offer (he's a regular here and will
speak up if he so desires). Intuit flat out said "no".
-sja
God I'm glad Quicken never made it to the AMIGA – my IBM accounting
software is Safe 🙂
Maybe I'll finished the FOXPRO / DBASE port – a new AMIGA might be enough
incentive. FOXPRO under windows is about as fast a 8086.
:: How's my DRIVING – 100036,174 – ON AUTOPILOT ::
:: WES TATTERS, BRIZ 31, AUSTRALIA ::
"Convincing Adobe and Aldus to port their software is quite simple… you port
it for them at NO cost to them. I have several hundred GOOD programmers at my
disposal to use for this task."
Can you provide a single example of a major software developer permitting
this? surely if it's as simple as you say, there should be numerous examples.
"Would you turn down an offer to have your entire product line ported to the
MAC or IBM at no cost to you? I am sure that Adobe, Aldus, Quark, and other
companies would be happy to simply package up existing manuals and sell to a
completley virgin platform… especially when people see the performance
difference gained by the Amiga's superior architecture."
Yes. There are many other issues involved that practically guaranty a
negative response.
Your implication that the folks at Adobe, Aldus and Quark are simply unaware
of the Amiga is condescending and chauvinistic in the extreme. Do you seriously
think these people are so stupid that they haven't looked at – and conciously
ignored – the Amiga market?
As it happens, getting through to the people at the three companies you
mention is easy enough. Why not do it today and post the results here?
Think of how much easier it's going to make things for you to already have
secured committments from Aldus, Adobe and Quark.
Strikes me that if it's as simple a process as you describe that you would
have been on the phone already making these deals seeing as how you think these
people at Adobe, Aldus and Quark – all of whom have built successful companies
– are too dumb to have thought of it themselves.
Jerry
Jim-
Much though I wish it were otherwise, I'm afraid you will have no luck
convincing them. Companies are unlikely to part with trade secrets. They
will also be skeptical of the market. If they thought the market was
worthwhile they'd probably prefer to do the port themselves and thus
realize the profits themselves. Also, they'll know that WordPerfect
failed. Admittedly, WordPerfect failed because they charged an
exhorbitant price for a program that was flawed and slow and poorly
designed and behind its other versions for all that it had millions of
features, but those companies aren't likely to understand this, or the
details of the Amiga market. Furthermore, most of those companies
probably made it to power by being paranoid, so even if you managed to
conclusively prove to them that your offer would be profitable to them
they still probably wouldn't take you up on it.
I don't know what you -would- have to offer to make them take you up on
it. I think Steve Ahlstrom once offered to port Quicken at no charge and
was refused. So I can offer you no constructive advice. But certainly
asking them won't cost you anything, so definitely, by all means, offer.
You never know.
Good luck.
Paul
Not to flame, but….
>>Much though I wish it were otherwise, I'm afraid you will have no luck
convincing them.
What is the purpose of this? If Jim is on the phone to these people, he
knows the answer already, whether it be good or bad. He is also the one
taking the risk, and making the phone call. Why tell him it can't be
done? Do you think it will stop him from trying… I doubt it. If he's
right, he laughs at us… if he's wrong, then it's another blow to our
platform.
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Without the Amiga… the toaster is just another card.
If they feel that their trade secrets are too valuable to risk in the hands of
outside programmers, perhaps they would be open to being "hired" to produce a
port. In otherwords, their programmers would have their salaries paid by the
new Amiga corp. to produce the port. In that way they would not loose control
of their technology, and at the same time have no financial risk, in doing the
engineering to make it fly on the Amiga.
I believe you can "hire" Lotus's programmers to port 1-2-3 to any platform
for only $1 million. I think they get any profits from sales on top of
that.
—
Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
And just so you don't begin to forget that the Grinch still had a bit of
heart…
On a positive note, I'd say that an emulator-making company would be among the
best candidates for recycling Amiga technology. If they could put an Amiga (in
essence) on one or two PC cards, or a Mac Nubus card, with a little soft switch
that lets you plop the video signal to your multisync, that would be a popular
product among Amigaphiles who've been forced to change platforms.
And there's the obvious opportunity for a mail order company to emerge as the
heir to the Amiga parts and service line. Maybe even a "used Amiga"
clearinghouse to cannibalize the machines out there already. And there's
certainly opportunities for sofware publishers to pick up existing products
with flagging support. The Disk Company did that several years ago, and now
look where Bobby Kotek is today… in profile pieces in Forbes, with his feet
on the desk, and owning a $60 game company. Now if he can only explain the
mystery connections to Steve Wynn…. 🙂
An emplant for aPC that does AmigaDOS and Workbench and maybe sound…? I
guarantee you I'd scarf one up for the stupid 486 I'm writing this note on just
to work with a better OS than Windows and to remain attached to the visionary
community that singlehandedly forced PC's and MAC's to get religion and
discover multimedia…
>> An emplant for aPC that does AmigaDOS and Workbench and maybe sound…? I
guarantee you
>> I'd scarf one up for the stupid 486 I'm writing this note on just to work
with a better
>> OS than Windows and to remain attached to the visionary community that
singlehandedly
>> forced PC's and MAC's to get religion and discover multimedia…
Perhaps whomever buys the technology will port the Amiga OS to the Intel
machines. (Much the way NeXT has decided to quit making computers and develop
the OS for Intel based boxes.)
NeXTStep had to run on very high-end Intel configurations to bear any
resemblance in functionality to its original incarnation. I doubt the
Amiga OS could simply be ported without similar though maybe slightly more
modest requirements.
Paul
I'm not so sure that's possible, with all the coproceessor dependence the Amiga
was built upon…
Worthwile implies a level of realism that makes the outcome at least
possible even if improbable. By that definition, there hasn't ben much
offered that would lead a thoughtful individual to conclude that anything
(with the possible exception of some of the common cheaper chips – 8520s
etc) will ever be made again.
Also, there is this assumption that eveyone is skipping over. That the
technology rights will be put up for auction or will be for sale. Doesn't
is strike anyone as odd that no one knows who these trustees are? Isn't
it possible that the trustees may buy, or arrange a private sale of these
rights and technology to a third party who will evaluate, use and discard
portions as they see fit without regard to the loyal Amiga following? Or
someone may buy it and shelve it just like Benchmark did to M2Sprint.
And remember, this is all being managed by Bahamian courts. Theses guys
are not know for being unfreindly to, how shall we say, entreprenueral
hanky panky.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne…
Everything you say is true, and it applies equally to anyone who wants to buy
the technology. That could mean any company or consortium.
Jim
John,
How is it that you've had that wonderfuly culled cynical/sarcastic streak
hidden from us this past year or so! I've haven't seen a string of lines
like that from you in a long time. Welcome back!! <g>
(but did you have to pick here and now? <g>)
Don't fret, Michael… I'm still the same old me. 🙂
>>I'm still the same old me.<<
Now I really do have reason to fret! <g>
Just like I said, still sounds like the Bandito. In the face of despair,
he brings us down just a little bit more than we wanted to.
-Jonathan
// Amiga online via Autopilot. MAC Quadra 900 and
\\// 486 emulation. E-Mail: jonathanb@delrina.com
Sure, magazine editors can't want to get their hands on regular columnists who
can depress the readers each and every month. Despair was not the job
description of the Bandito. If it's any consolation, for the few months that I
played that role, there were plenty of behind the scenes stories that curdled
my stomach that didn' t make it into print.
Great idea, that's the difference between those who make money
and those who don't. That is the American way you know.
Remember there's more people who don't own computers than those who do.
Nothing is set in stone. CBM should have done this along time ago.
If it works one way or the other imagine all the negative people on
these forums looking at their monitors with their mouths hung open
it might be an overload for their brain it just might shortcircuit
leaving the amiga to think for them.
> … make these rights publically available (anyone could produce the
> machine ala PC clones) …
Jim,
that's an interesting idea… any interested OEM may compose his AMIGA
clone by then…
And you might develope an Emplant board to emulate the AMIGA on a PC…
<bg>
Anyways, in the moment I halted my developement projects with the AMIGA
until I will know for sure what will be happening to the European
subsidiaries of CBM. I just continue hoping that they can survive someway,
so I dont't have to spill the half-done things down the sink.
– wkc – … via AP from Hamburg, Germany
Thank you for your efforts Jim, I would like to release your statement on
the amiga fidonet circuit, if you will allow it, so more Amiga people can
learn of it.
Are you actually speaking of acquiring the rights to Amiga only in the
United States or worldwide? I am reading from Germany that a Japanese
buyer may already have been found…probably before black friday unless I
am very innocent and wide-eyed.
Tom Jones
Oklahoma City, OK
Jim, I have an interesting idea. You should talk to Apple!
Buy Amiga in partnership with them.
Why? What's in it for Apple? Because, with your help Apple can make
MacEMPLANT-Amiga in no time! Since, all Amiga users (especially you I suppose)
think Amiga+EMPLANT is better than a real Mac, you should have a very good
selling point!
What's in it for you? Without a reliable source of Mac ROM, you cannot
(legally) sell a lot of EMPLANT. In partnership with Apple, you can become Bill
Gates IV. 😉
What Amiga need is marketing, and Apple can do that way better then CBM.
Make sense?
By the way, tell them how many EMPLANT you have sold. That will get their
attension!
Oh, if you get a deal, don't forget my commission 🙂
Paul
Paul_C.H._Ho@magic-bbs.corp.apple.com
74020.772@compuserve.com
paulcho@io.org
>>By the way, tell them how many EMPLANT you have sold. That will get
>>their attension!
Yeah – possibley the attention of their legal department. Not a good
idea. Even if they loose, they can tie up Emplant in the courts for years
on a "look and feel" thing, copyright infringment and probably some other
stuff.
wmc – via Autopilot!
Wayne:
>> …they can tie up Emplant in the courts for years
>> on a "look and feel" thing, copyright infringment
>> and probably some other stuff.
Right-o. Reminds me of a billboard I saw in L.A. once (I don't know who bought
the space) that had the Apple logo and the slogan "Buy our computer or we'll
sue you, too!"
=Chris
I am curious as to how a "look-and-feel" suit would hold up with their
technology(ROMS) being required to run the emulation. They get their
"share" via the sale of the ROMS (at least they do in theory).
How come it hasn't happened? If Jim can "never work again" from the
success he's had with Emplant, I'd say he's sold enough to be noticed by
the "core".
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Is it significant that my spell checker doesn't know "Quit"?
MAC emulation has been happening for more than 7 years… the statute of
limitations is over… Apple could not have a fit about the emulation. As far
as look and feel… well, it uses their OS which is SOLD in the form of ROMs
which are available from service centers, even those authorized by Apple.
I don't wish to get involved with a legal hassle with Apple over EMPLANT, but
we are not the first to do this, and I am sure we will not be the last. Now
that the MAC emulation is completed, we have filed for Apple developer status..
something we did not do before to prevent legal hassles.
Apple has made a small fortune off of EMPLANT owners and they probably don't
even realize it. I know that hundreds of CD-300 (CD-ROM drive) units were sold
to our customers, along with Apple Laserwriter printers, etc. I would bet that
a few hundred thousand dollars went to Apple because of EMPLANT, and most
certainly EMPLANT's MAC emulation does not in anyway tarnish the functionality
of the Macintosh machine…quite the opposite.
Since Apple is moving to Power PC technology, they might even welcome some sort
of emulator that requires their Roms, and operating systems, thus helping to
keep the market active for native 680×0 applications, and allowing them to
profit off engineering that has long since been amortized, and would otherwise
sit idle.
This is also a good reason for software developers to at least be
interested in having a free port of their software.
As it stands now all Mac developers are going to be forced to redevelop
for the Power PC to remain competative. Yes Power PC's will run existing
mac software – but around 4 times slower than native Power PC apps.
Any developer will tell you that you cant afford to be behind. If they
are considering porting to Power PC's with no existing client base. Whay
not port to a 5,000,000 user plus clent base at the same time.
Especially if someone is willing to do all the work. Cross platform is
the new catch word. This was not the case even 3 years ago.
:: How's my DRIVING – 100036,174 – ON AUTOPILOT ::
:: WES TATTERS, BRIZ 31, AUSTRALIA ::
Porting from Mac to PowerMac is a pretty simple task. Apple has sold a lot of
PowerPC computers in the last few weeks—companies that ported to PowerMac
early have probably already sold more copies in the last few weeks than Amiga
developers will sell this year.
Commodore may have sold 4-5 million Amiga's, but that's not how many are in
use. If you can sell 10000 copies of a major application in a year on the
Amiga, you've struck it rich. 10000 copies wouldn't interest many Mac or PC
firms. Most Amiga programs sell in the 1000 to 2000 range per year.
Michael
Mike,
maybe the Amiga users are…
a) not as interested in commercial applications software as PC/Mac
users (because, as everyone knows, the Amiga is a GAMES ONLY machine), or
b) would buy are not able to afford those applications because Amiga
users are the least well off computer owners on earth, or
c) they use PD/Shareware (unpaid, of course) programs to do tasks
PC/Mac users have to fork out hundreds of dollars for, or
d) don't give a sh** and just copy everything they want to have (ah,
c'mon – every Amiga user wants to have _every_ program ever made – we're
software junkies in the purest sense!) from dubious sources and thus reap
the rewards from the hard working commercial developers…
I don't know, but maybe the Amiga's excellent choice of PD/Shareware
programs for nearly every occasion has its share in destroying the
commercial applications market for it? Would Norton Tools or Desktop have
a chance on the Amiga? I guess not. Just about everything offered in there
for, I don't know, $200?, can be had FOR FREE on the Amiga. So why should
anyone bother to develop a commercial product anymore? The only chance is
to do the ultimate Word Processor, Spreadsheet, Database, DTP, Draw,
Paint/Retouche program or bring Amiga networking to the masses CHEAP (what
masses? Who wants to fork out at the moment the price of a Amiga CD32 (for
each machine) to connect his Amigas? Would it justify the expenses for
development/marketing?).
Sorry, but that's the way I see it at the moment… Having said all
that, I have 2 1/2 Amigas (1 broken), networked via AmigaLink, am
registered user of quite a few commercial programs (yes, PGS 2.21 is among
them!) and haven't made a pirate copy for about 4 years or so, and thus I
count myself to the "good guys" and not to one of the 4 categories above.
Alright, flame me if you must. I still LOVE my Amigas!
// Chris coming in from Germany
\X/ still on AutoPilot 1.061….
>> and haven't made a pirate copy for about 4 years or so…
Yea, I too used to pirate a bit… and for some reason I just stopped one
day, (about 5 years ago) and haven't been able to bring myself to do it
again.
I'm growing older but not up. (Or am I?)
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
"Are we having fun yet?!?" -Anonymous A1200 User
I didn't understand all of your message. We don't compete in any way with
shareware or PD programs—there are no PD or shareware desktop publishing
programs like ours. And our program is very reasonably priced.
Michael
>> Cross platform is the new catch word. This was not the case even 3 years
ago.
Word Perfect tried it about 6 years ago. They ran big ads on how their product
would run on everything some day, and have file compatibility.
There were Word Perfect versions for Mac, Unix, OS/2 (native), Apple IIgs,
Atari ST, and Amiga.
The Apple II gs, Amiga, Atari ST versions were dropped. The OS/2 native
version has been suspended. I don't know what is going on with the Unix
version, and Windows has been added. (The Windows version has some _serious_
problems. Try opening and closing WP Windows version a number of times, and
you will eventually run out of memory.)
I think recompile would be more accurate than redevelop.
;->
No – the correct work is redevelop.
Differences in SDK's 32 bit – 16 bit, different operating systems
different calls, different lowel level system management, different file
systems. GUI, DOS chars, TTY & Terminal emulation.
If it was just a recompile – why has it taken MSDOS 18 months to recompile
FOXPRO for DOS to FOXPRO for UNIX.
The word they used was redevelopment 🙂
:: How's my DRIVING – 100036,174 – ON AUTOPILOT ::
:: WES TATTERS, BRIZ 31, AUSTRALIA ::
I thought I was talking about going from mac app.s for 680×0 based macs to
PowerPC macs, which presumably have the same toolbox and os calls
available. It sounds like you're talking about Windows3.x to NT, in which
case I agree with you completely.
Wayne,
Apple set the precedent of not attempting (they'd have lost anyway) to
shut down rom-required emulators when they did not go after Dave Small of
Pacific Data (and later Gadgets by Small). There is no copyright
infringement as long as original Apple roms are used and the roms
themselves are not modified … once loaded into ram, the rom image may
then be modified. It was the success of the "Magic Sac" emulator for the
ST (long before ReadySoft jumped into the emulator biz … Dave Small
turned down Simon Douglas when approached about marketing his Mac emulator
for the Amiga) that caused Apple to get paranoid about the availability of
their roms. They couldn't stop the legal usage of their rom, so they
attempted to shut down their distribution.
-sja
With the result that the local Universty has had two thefts where people
broke into offices over long weekend, stole the ROMS from the Macs and
reassemble the machines so you couldn't tell by looking at it that
anything was amiss. I always imagined it was a consortiaum of Amax
dealers who did it… :^}
wmc – via Autopilot!
Or Atari (Magic Sac?), or the PC MAC Emulator…..
Bob Comer — Cruising the nets on Autopilot!
Cheyenne, Wyoming U.S.A.
Jim,
First the was the AmigaDos Replacement Project (ARP). Lately there has
been talk of a MUI Replacement Project (MRP), which is kind of a misnomer.
But now we have the most ambious project of all, the Commodore Replacement
Project (CRP). I can think of some creative ways to pronounce that
acronym. 8^)….
Even though I think this has a small chance of success, I am willing to
believe it possible, because I am unwilling to lie down and watch the best
home microcomputer in the world die.
A couple of suggestions:
1. If you can get enough interest from the other developers to form a
corporations, consider going public to get intial operating funds. Even
though I am a graduate student on a tight, tight budget, I would be
willing to come up with a couple hundred dollars to buy stock in the new
company. I suspect many other would be willing to take a gamble with
their money also, and many could afford to buy more shares than I could.
Of course, little buyers would make no impact whatsoever unless it was
done on a HUGE SCALE. You could solicit shareholders in the following
ways:
A. Electronically, via CI$, Genie, Internet etc….
B. Communcations with Amiga Clubs worldwide.
C. Direct mail to registered Amiga owners, assuming you can buy this
information from the liquidation.
2. Perhaps the new corp. would not need to make whole Amiga computers,
just motherboards and other Amiga specific hardware. Perhaps support for
standard PC floppy drives could added and the boards modified so they
would mount in standard commericially available PC cases. Then dealers
could put the computers together, just like clone makers do, and say the
corp. much money on the production side. This might be something I would
get into if this all became a reality.
The summer is comming up and as a student I will have some free time on
my hands. If there is anything you need to help all this come about, I
offer you my services. I don't know what I could possibly do to help, but
if there is let me know. It is time for all us avid Amigaphiles out there
to put up or shut up, and do what we can it the almost impossible task of
saving our machine from oblivion.
._ _ o _ |_ _. _ | _ _ |_ _ _. INTERNET: mshea@math.arizona.edu
| | ||(_ | |(_|(/_| (/_o _> | |(/_(_| COMPUSERVE: 76665,3360
Please excuse my numerous spelling errors in the last post. That is
what I get for pulling an all nighter.
._ _ o _ |_ _. _ | _ _ |_ _ _. INTERNET: mshea@math.arizona.edu
| | ||(_ | |(_|(/_| (/_o _> | |(/_(_| COMPUSERVE: 76665,3360
Excellent suggestions!
Bob Comer — Cruising the nets on Autopilot!
Cheyenne, Wyoming U.S.A.
Jim-
First I would like permission to recirculate your post among dealers and
other interested parties.
Second I want to say again that I know people, talented people,
professionals, who would do quality, professionally produced advertisement
work for little or no money if the Amiga finds a new home.
Good luck. You carry the hopes of many people.
Paul – Minus Pins!
Jim's letter is addressed to: Attention Amiga developers and interested
parties…
so feel free to distribute it to whomever you want… it is also signed
with all of his EMail addresses… so one could assume he has sent it out
to the widest possible circle.
Congrats on your efforts. If you are able to pull it off and become a
public company, put me on the list of investors.
Jim R. Ollick
Using AP from Bergenfield, NJ
This is the best news I've heard regarding my Beloved Amigas in a long
time. Keep up the good work and posative thoughts. I'm sure there are many
of us Amiga Zelots that are rooting for you, BIGTIME..
I've had Macs and PC's, work on both everyday. I love my Amiga.(In a
computing kind of way :^)
I Wish the pesimests like JF,AC and JS would just go away already. It
would make these threads much shorter and less full of BS that doesn't
concern us AmigaUsers.
Good luck,
….John
I don't know… much as I find the pessimests distasteful in their timing,
bless them one and all. Their presence here reminds us that we must, at some
point, stop talking and act. They also provide good ballast vs. some of the
balloons going up…
Jim –
I am currently in the US Army, but I will become a civilian in a couple
months… later, I will have a nice separation check. Not only am I willing to
commit some money, in a _small_ investor king of way, but I am willing to offer
my meager professional skills for free through September (my
civilian-equivilant occupation is somewhere between office-manager, executive
asst and personnel-manager). I know this isn't much to offer – but I'd be happy
to help if needed. I should be able to offer somewhere in the neighboorhood of
$1-2000.
Though I applaud your effort to keep the Amiga alive, there is one aspect of
your plan that unfortunately will not fly. There is simply no way that major
Mac/PC development companies will release their source code for porting to the
Amiga, even if _you_ were to pay _them_ for the privilege: the risk in having
their trade secrets pirated in source code form is so steep that they would not
even allow you inside _their_ facilities to do the port within their secured
walls. Unless they do it themselves, it is not going to happen.
I remember back in 1982 asking whether the company I worked for (a fortune 500
utility) could temporarily obtain the code to Lotus 1-2-3 for porting to an IBM
Mainframe. We would have done the port ourselves, provided them with our
modified source code, then destroyed our copy of the source subsequent to the
modifications. We were laughed at. Such was my naivete as a 23-year-old entry
level programmer, thinking that our work would benefit Lotus so much that they
would temporarily release their source code to us.
However, as you know, disassembly is legal for fair-use purposes (in the USA),
something that was not recognized at the time of your project. Software
secrets, then, are not as safe as they were, and software companies may be more
likely to comply with a reasonable request.
Maybe.
-Vree in VA
"However, as you know, disassembly is legal for fair-use purposes (in the USA),
something that was not recognized at the time of your project."
It always helps to stay current with the law. For example, the recent
STAC/Microsoft case made headlines with Microsoft being hit for a $120,000,000
judgement. Most people failed to note that Stac was hit with a $13,000,000
judgement for disassembling and using Microsoft's code.
Jerry
Actually, Stac was counter-sued for using 'undocumented system routines
propreitary to MicroSoft'. This means that they were accessing code protected
by patents and or propreitary copyrights.
I think this is one case that was really weird to begin with….
"Actually, Stac was counter-sued for using 'undocumented system routines
propreitary to MicroSoft'. This means that they were accessing code protected
by patents and or propreitary copyrights."
Oh? Perhaps you'd like to identify the parts of the Microsoft code that aren't
protected by copyright? Incidentally, all copyrights are proprietary.
Also, in Stac's instance, there was no allegation that any patents were
violated.
Jerry
They were judged against for having "stolen" and made use of MSoft "trade
secrets" – i.e. undocumented calls, which means that in the future MSoft
has a legal way of maintaining an advantage over other developers – they
can just fail to document crucial calls.
Paul
"They were judged against for having "stolen" and made use of MSoft "trade
secrets" – i.e. undocumented calls, which means that in the future MSoft
has a legal way of maintaining an advantage over other developers – they
can just fail to document crucial calls."
Ah, you didn't read the decision did you? Where did you get this language of
"stolen"? Sure doesn't sound like the case I'm familiar with.
Jerry
No, I didn't read the decision. Yes, stolen was perhaps the wrong world.
However, the fact of the decision – the counter judgement giving MSoft $12
or $13 million – was that Stac was judged to have acted illegally in using
an undocumented call.
Paul
"was that Stac was judged to have acted illegally in using
an undocumented call"
Not quite. The gist of the decision was against the reverse-engineering
employed to learn the hooks.
Jerry
Reverse-engineering is not illegal, and since Stac has appealed the decision, I
am not sure that calling undocumented system functions is illegal either. I
would have never even dreamed of such a thing… Stac officials could have
claimed that the code fragment that called their undocumented routine was a
compiler error and it was calling the wrong routine… who's to say this
wouldn't work?
I have been to US copyright court (federal level) once before and won a
copyright infringement case. I also just won a copyright infringement case in
the UK. ….I have quite a bit of experience in this area and I still don't
understand the laws… sheesh! 😉
WHAT!
I thought MS bent over backwards to deny the existence of those
undocumented routines, as they were being used as evidence for MS being a
monopoly that Justice should read the Sherman act to.
What do you mean by "accessing"? You mean compiled in with the code they
sell, or accessed by calling things in the OS that's on the machine?
Daniel Skelton,
One small thing you forget about innovative Amiga programmers… source code is
optional when porting. Yes, it takes longer.. but as far as trade secrets are
concerned…this is not a problem as long as there is permission to reproduce
the same results. Also, the 'trade secrets' are most often patented (like
Adobe did with PhotoShop), meaning that this information is available
publically, and protected under patent laws against unlawful use.
Frankly, most existing PC source code is not something you'd want to
directly port anyway. You'd be much better off starting from scratch.
Dale L. Larson R360: You hit 23 Enemy Virtua Formula: 1/8
Intangible Assets Manufacturing AS-1: Most qualified
haha… true, Dale.. since all of the programming we do here is 100% assembly,
the LAST thing I would want to see is a bunch of LISP or C source code. 🙂
Of course, the fact that you don't do *any* higher level coding goes far
to explain why some of your work takes you so long 🙂
—
Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
"Also, the 'trade secrets' are most often patented (like Adobe did with
PhotoShop), meaning that this information is available publically, and
protected under patent laws against unlawful use."
This is not true. There are many "trade secrets" that can't be patented and
are protected by copyright.
Jerry
Re-read my message… I stated that trade secrets are 'most often patented'.
You are wrong, you can't copyright trade secrets.
–Paul < Motorola Inside >
"You are wrong, you can't copyright trade secrets."
You've stated a conclusion without providing a basis. How about the details
of your learned reasoning?
Jerry
Actually, works embodying trade secrets can be copyrighted — the
Copyright Office has procedures for making the necessary deposit of the
copyrighted material with deletions necessary to protect trade secrets.
Trade secret protection is granted by state law and, roughly speaking, is
any information (processes, techniques, ingredients, customer lists, etc.)
a business possesses that has economic value by virtue of its not being
generally known. Copyrights are granted under federal law and protect any
work of original authorship. A deposit of the copyrighted material is
necessary to get a registration, but in the case of software and the like,
one can make a deposit that conceals trade secrets but still is sufficient
to prove the necessary "original authorship."
Darron
Thanks, Darron. I thought that was the case.
Jerry
Jim-
That might work! I still have my doubts as to whether they'd let you
do it, but it seems much more likely if you can impress them with your
credibility, the credibility of the Amiga marketplace, which might be the
tough part, depending on the situation at the time, and the fact that they
need give you nothing other than reproduce the results of their programs.
Otoh, reproducing the results of something like PhotoShop, as opposed to
Quicken, seems virtually impossible to me. ASDG told me in their CO here
that though the plug-in spec -is- public, it would be extremely difficult
to run plug-ins on the Amiga. And more and more plug-ins are going to be
PPC-based, rather than 0x0-based. Still, it is less in image-prcessing
and more in productivity – a la Quicken – that we are lacking.
Paul
A good point. If that method could be used to port mainstream Mac/PC
applications like Photoshop, Freehand, Pagesetter, Excel, Word, and the like,
that would be wonderful.
I just want Quicken… and X-Wing! <g>
Chris – Fast and Low on my '020!
Without the Amiga… the toaster is just another card.
You're right. Quicken would be one of the very best applications to attempt.
I use it on my Mac, and my wife uses it on her PC.
1982 was a long time ago…Part of me agrees with your assessment and part of
me wonders if the immense base of installed users for products like Lotus and
the relative size and stability of 1994 markets vs 1982 might alter the picture
somewhat…
Jim-
You have known for some time now, that I am willing to aid UU/Emplant in
my development efforts. Consider myself as another supporter of this
venture. I am looking right now at doing direct ports of some our most
popular software just to breathe a little life into this great machine.
-Jonathan
// Amiga online via Autopilot. MAC Quadra 900 and
\\// 486 emulation. E-Mail: jonathanb@delrina.com
WINFAXPRO-AMIGA!!! _pleeaassee!_ <g>
That will be AMIFAXPRO! <G>
…Steve
CBM: The end of an era (or is that error?)
Jim,
Australia was probably the first C= to go to the wall !!
We have been living without support and machines for some four months.
I am sure that many Australian users will support your goals. I am not
sure what I can do to help down here away from the smoke.
However, put me on the list 🙂
If any community can pull a computer back from the dead it is the Amiga
community. There is probably no group of people who have supported and
stood up for their machine with such vigor, despite what can only be seen
as a intentional effort to shut down C=.
You've got my support
–> Television without lights is Bad Radio 🙂
–> WES TATTERS, BRIZ 31, AUSTRALIA –<
Jim,
I appreciate your enthusiasm. The Amiga is a great machine. I hope that
someone can move it into the next century. It's funny how some of its
greatest admirers are also some of its greatest detractors. An A5000 with
improved graphics and sound, state of the art scsi implementation, and
multiple 060's would be a pretty formidable machine. It might be beaten in
a category here and there, but as an overall platform, it would be hard to
beat. Especially when you consider the third party products for it. I want
one. An 060 portable would also be heck of a machine. I want one of those
too.
-Richard
You're right, an A5000 with 060's and a few improvements here and there would
still be a killer
box that would keep me preferrring Amiga's for quite awhile. I'll just keep
"emplanting" away for
office compatability as I have been to date…Hope it happens (hint to UU)…
>>An A5000 with improved graphics and sound, state of the art scsi
implementation, and
multiple 060's would be a pretty formidable machine. <<
I'd settle for a A4000 that was expandable……with all of the 3rd party
development, I never could figure out Comodore's logic in reducing the number
of slots in their newer machines instead of expanding….even the A4000T shown
in LA last year was disappointing….I think the A2000 has more slots than it
did!….but then again I guess C= shortsightedness was the reason for the 3rd
party developers in the first place.
I agree with that 100%. And another thing why can't someone make
a box with expansion slots for the A1200 at least 5, 8 would be
better. I remember waiting for them to do it with the A500 not
only did they come out with it to late but it only had 3 slots.
for the person who gets thing one at a time this is great because
most likely he'll add on to his system rather than save and buy
the A4000.
>because most likely he'll add on to his system rather than save and buy
the A4000
Gee…. maybe that's why Commodire wasn't selling a lot of _new_
computers, huh?…
If C= had been smart they would have made loads of aftermarket products to
keep the cash coming in between cpu purchases.
Paul
C= couldn't figure out how to be responsive enough to make money in the
low-volume peripheral business. That's why they stopped doing peripherals
and focused on what they could do — producing machines.
They'd really have needed a completely seperate business unit to do it
successfully. Plus a lot more engineers. They should have had the
additional engineers anyway, though.
—
Dale L. Larson, Intangible Assets Manufacturing
>> If C= had been smart they would have made loads of aftermarket products to
>> keep the cash coming in between cpu purchases.
Like an AGA upgrade board for the earlier Zorro Slotted machines perhaps? I
would definitely bought one for my 3000. Might have bought one for the 2000.
And in the meantine, C= would have had more sales, and a higher common
denominator for graphics, for the developers to work with, thus making more
advanced software more profitable, and possibly making the Amiga more
desireable.
Although it's not cheap and not perfected yet, the Retina is a good choice
for AGA emulation for 3000 machines like ours. But yes, I too would have
liked to see a true AGA solution for our machines from CBM. We'll see if
any new CBM owners feel the same way.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
May be,…but you know out of all the companies that make computers
ibm,mac,cbm they reaally don't think when they're building them.
They're to much into the mhz,risc,caches etc..to be thinking about the
simple things like what is good for the consumer snapon expansion, capable
system of being upgraded from a lowend machine to a highend machine-
if the consumer wanted, snap on box with lots of slots, ever part
changeable, etc..or maybe that is not good business thinking like the tire
that can last forever. Maybe the only people who ever got it right are
those who aren't in it for the money only but also love what they are
doing and aren't confined but free to do what ever they think of, setting
no limits but trying win or lose. Those type of people created the amiga
maybe that's why after being in the hands of two companies it is still
around. This is an objectional viewpoint.
You tend to forget the average Amiga owner, is not the average computer
purchaser. I don't know how many owners of IBM's and Mac's have told me they
do not want to ever open their boxes.
They buy them configured, and when they want to do something else, a large
precentage of them buy a new machine. Peripherals are things they think the
dealer adds, much like options on your car.
Amiga, sadly, has run full circle in the minds of some of the press.
It started out as a "hackers" machine, too advanced for the average user.
Went to a game machine, with little respect.
And now I read in the obits, that it was too technical for most people.
Funny thing is that everyone who I was able to get near one, bought one. Once
you demonstrate what good multitasking is, they are hooked. Problem was, that
your average, play a game, non modem using, person has no use for multitasking.
Get a heavy duty modemer near one, and as soon as they see they can do
somehting else during a 45 minute download, they want one.
> It's funny how some of its greatest admirers are also some of its >
greatest detractors.
It's an interesting point I've also considered – I came to the conclusion
that Amiga owners have, but believe they haven't; clone owners haven't,
but believe they have: the first breath of a different media and WOW they
have multimedia, the first sign of running more than one program and WOW
they have multitasking….
What we need is the Amiga hardware and the clone `softwear' 🙂
regards, Lu on AutoPilot downunder
Yea. It could be that Amiga users have been subjected to so much
propaganda they're starting to believe it. I'm not so sure that the Amiga
even needs clone software. If the Amiga had even a fraction of the
development that has been poured into the clone and Mac world, its
programs would be more than capable of holding their own. Some Amiga
programs are already amazing. Imagine turning the existing Amiga
applications up a notch or two.
-Richard
One of the things that should have been done alot more and more reliably
with the Amiga, was to bundle software and hardware packages.
I read all of the time about PC and Mac packages coming with the top-notch
software and/or hardware accessories.
Most of what Amiga had for bundles were dated games and applications. I
would have liked to see packages that came with 24-bit graphics software
and hardware (hardware for non-AGA systems). Others with a MIDI interface
and Bars and Pipes Pro. And more.
Actually, I should correct myself a little. The Video Toaster is available
bundled with the Amiga. One of the best examples that it does work.
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Black Belt Systems' Imagemaster R/t!
About the only thing that gets bundled on a regular basis with clones, is
Windoze. (gee, I wonder why that is? Perhaps to sell more Windoze software do
Mr. Bill can pick up a few more bucks? <g>)
There are some hardware bundles available, but app bundles are one of the worst
things you can do to a machine. If you already have a wordprocessor, you
aren't likely to buy one, so the developers don't get around to writing them.
CD Roms are a different story….
Rather than bundling, perhaps a voucher towards applications, where you can
more or less pick your bundle, up to a certain dollar value, on applications
from developers who are willing to work with the computer company.
You've made some excellent points!
Where I am situated in Western Canada, it is common to see 486's bundled
with Windozzzzz, Word Prefect, Locust 1-2-3, and lots of multi-media
hardware and software for really low prices. Even though it still doesn't
make it a better machine. *B^)
Bundles are popular, though (for the less adventurous).
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!
Interesting that Word Perfect is the only package you didn't corrupt the name
of <grin>. It is handy to have OS/2 pre-loaded on the IBM's we get. It takes
forever to load it compared to about 5 minutes to install amigados. HARRYM
Oh, but I did make fun of Word Perfect's name. I switched a couple of
letters around to make it Word P-r-e-fect. *B^)
-= Vance =- Image Master
Flying high on Imagine and Imagemaster R/t!