#Video Toast – PC Version
101 messages in this thread
Hi There. I received the Video Toaster Demo video the other day. Yes
it's true, I was blown away. I have a strong PC background. I have a lot
of money invested in the DOS arena. I have heard rumors that the Toaster
would be available soon for the PC/Windows world. Is this true? If it
is, how will it compare to the Amiga world? Is the Amiga enviorment so
much better that I would be better off just biting the bullet and spending
big bucks on a brand new system?
Any and all advice would be great. Also, what other types of equipment
would I need to get started? I understand I need a TBC. Anything else?
Thank you,
Marty
Martin,
I am in a very similar situation to you. I too was very impressed with
the video demo. I too am heavily invested in 386 technology of the ibm
clone architecture (ISA). I called NewTek and they said that the Toaster
only runs in an Amiga. They are coming out with an interface board
(RS-422?) that will allow commands to be remotely entered into the Amiga
from a PC but that there is no plan for a toaster video board based upon
the IBM PC architecture.
In my opionion it's a bad mistake not to go with the PC. It's
reminicent of the early '70s when TI came out with the 9900
microprocessor. These device had more features in it than anything
conceived for a microprocessor at that time but some VP there decided that
the future of microcprocessors was as dedicated embedded devices and Intel
stole the show with the lowly 8080).
In a recent (Jan '92) PC magazine they featured some current 24 bit
color boards for the PC and most of them cost more than the Toaster board.
Well now that NewTek proved it could be done, someone else (probably from
Korea) may venture to doit for the PC.
In the latest issue of VideoMaker magazine, it turns out that T.R. used
4 video toasters to make his video and is very critical of the Amiga.
Ben
Benjamin,
Todd is also very critical of PC's since he is a Mac fanatic.
However, since he did buy 10 Amigas & made his video using them I can't see
how critical he could really be of Amigas.
———————————————-Don- via Whap!
Don,
He bought 10 because that's what he needed for the project (4 VTs and 10
Amigas). The blurb was a PR for a 60 min. tape on the project ($19.95).
An excerpt is:
"Amigoids beware: he has some strong criticism for Amiga and Commodore. A
committed Mac-man, Rundgren found his forays into the Amiga world often
frustrating and the Amiga world itself often “stupid.'' " (Videomaker Jan
1992).
Ben
Ben,
I saw the tape of Rundgren's talk at Siggraph. Some of his criticisms were
justified. But I think much of his problem was due to his taking on a
*major* project on a platform which was new to him. I also got the
impression by reading between the lines that he ran into a known bug in the
firmware of the 2091 HD controller. He was also running under a deadline,
over the holiday season and was unable to find an experienced Amigan to act
as 'guru'. BTW, that was 11 Amigas and 10 Toasters. One for object modeling
and 10 for rendering. Add to that, the Toaster software was still in Beta
stage then….. Impressive results though.
-Jim
Ben,
If the Amiga world looks stupid to Todd from his Yuppy Mac
perspective then what in God's name is his opinion of the dregs in the IBM
world?
———————————————-Don- via Whap!
Don,
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. He's a celebrity of sorts so
his "words of wisdom" get more publicized.
Ben
What exactly is it that he (todd r.) said and where did he say it? It's
quite funny (sort of) that he would rip on the computer that allows him to
create his videos. I've heard a couple people say that AMIGA users seem to
have fragile egos, well it seems to me that the same can be said for the
MAC & PC crowd. I laugh when I see the lengths that these yutzes go to to
try and cover up the fact that they need an AMIGA to do high quality video.
I give you the "MAC toaster"! What a joke that is! Even though I hate
NEWTEK for some of the crap they've pulled over the last year or so, I must
give them credit for being very shrewd business people. If they can get MAC
and PC users to pay a couple extra grand just so they can pretend that
their machine is driving the toaster, more power to em' I guess. However as
an AMIGA user, seeing my beloved machine TOW a MAC or PC and not get any
credit does make my blood BOIL! Did anyone see Computer Chronicles a few
weeks ago? They were doing a "year in review" type thing and they did a
quick little review of the "PC Toaster". They TOTALLY gave the impression
that the toaster was running off the PC. All that was sitting there was
this anemic little PS/2. The AMIGA was NOWHERE in sight!! They falied to
mention you need an ENTIRE COMPUTER to use the "PC TOASTER"! What a joke!!
Oh well, considering that CC is somewhat affiliated with BITE 😉 Magazine,
I suppose this type of thing shouldn't suprise us. -CONTINUED-
-Continued-
And finally, I saw someone mention something about a toaster type card
being made for the PC…..not in our life times! Wake up man, smell the
toast! You are DREAMING. For a PC to do what an AMIGA w/ Toaster can do,
well I think someone said the card would be "heavy", that's the
UNDERSTATMENT of the CENTURY! There's only SO MUCH you can do with that
ANTIQUATED architecture!! Face it, when it comes to graphics & video, a PC
can't hold a candle to the AMIGA. Also, PLEASE don't anybody preach to me
about bashing other machines. 1st of all, I don't feel I'm bashing really,
just stating facts, and secondly, I didn't start this! I run a BBS and all
I get is MAC & PC users logging on trying to bash the AMIGA. I just don't
take it anymore, now I fight back!! A person can only take so much!! I used
to just praise the AMIGA and expound on it's abilities, and I'd get things
like "The AMIGA doesn't REALLY multitask, it just TIME shares". :-/ This
coming from someone who's machine needs a 3rd party OS, GUI, graphic card
and AT LEAST a 386 under the hood to even PASS for a functional machine. So
as you can see, I have taken off the gloves and and now let em' have it
with both barrels ('nough' cliches for ya?). Well I guess I've b*thced
enough for 1 day!!…what can I say? It's been awhile since I've visited
this SIG and some of the things I read got me started!!!
Computer Chronicles is affliated with Byte? I don't remember hearing that.
As for the PC and Mac Toasters, you're going to have to live with the fact
that the Amiga will be treated as a peripheral on those machines. Is that
so bad? Those users will eventually come around to the Amiga if they want
to take advantage of the character generator, LightWave, or ChromaFX in the
Toaster. With the PC and Mac Toasters, they aren't getting much more than
transition effects in the Switcher.
At the moment, NewTek is wowwing them at MacWorld with a transparent link
between the Mac and the Toaster: edit a picture on the Mac, zap it over to
Toaster Paint, add CG titles, etc. and zap it back to the Mac. Neat, huh?
Even a PC or Mac user is smart enough to recognize that something with a
monitor, mouse and keyboard is probably a computer of some kind. They'll
figure out that the Toaster is an Amiga. Some of them won't care. Others
will figure out just what it means: multitasking without lockups and/or
eight megs of memory per app. That, my friend, will do much more to promote
the Amiga than the paranoid ravings of your average BBS denizen. 🙂
"That, my friend, will do much more to promote the Amiga than the paranoid
ravings of your average BBS denizen. :-)"
John:
IMHO, you've hit the nail on the head (however, are you feeling ok? I've
noticed a 180 degree… ok, 175 degree, change in direction in your 'tone'
over that past several months… I miss some of your cynisism!) 🙂
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
I'm so jaded that I can't even depend on cynicism anymore. 🙂 In
actuality, I think I'm an optimist who gives people and events the benefit
of the doubt and an assumption of benevolence, but I'm far too often proved
wrong by the facts.
"…but I'm far too often proved wrong by the facts."
Well, that's the easiest way to become a bonafide first rate cynic. 🙂
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
"Additional funding provided by BYTE Magazine" I think that qualifies as
affiliation.
Is having the AMIGA treated like a peripheral so bad? Yeah I think it is.
The AMIGA is sorely lacking in the respect area, I don't think being
considered a peripheral for some anemic PC is going to help matters. With
my dealings with the MAC & PC crowds in my area, I don't foresee any AMIGA
converstions. The mac & pc people are SO anti AMIGA in my area, it's like
being in a war zone. The PROBLEM, IMO, is not that there are MAC & PC
"Toasters", I have no real problem with that. I DO have a problem with
NEWTEK and many different publications who seem to go out of their way to
hide what the MAC & PC toaster really are. I would think any AMIGA user who
gives a rats rear about his or her machine, would get a little upset at the
continual snubbing it gets in reviews of the mac or pc toaster. If this
happened once or twice, well maybe I could write it off to just idiotic
reviewers and or bad journalism, but it seems that every other week we hear
another story about a review of the toaster, or a story about multimedia,
and the AMIGA not being mentioned! Since the word ADVERTISE is apparently
not part of C='s vocabulary, I think the AMIGA is missing out on a large
number of free plugs, and the opportunity to gain some MUCH needed respect
is slipping away. I don't claim to have all the answers, nor do I claim to
be an AMIGA expert, I'm just a proud AMIGA user who's sick of the crap. If
this makes me a "paranoid BBS denizen" or whatever, so be it. I'd much
rather make some noise and try to change things than to sit back and be
some apathetic bump on a log!
Not necessarily – it might only mean that Byte is a corporate sponsor of
this particular show on public television. Theoretically, they have nothing
to do with it. The fact that Amiga isn't mentioned as much as it "should"
is not NewTek's fault. It's not their job to do Commodore's marketing. I'd
cheer just as loud for any Amiga developer who managed to get their product
publicized as much as NewTek has. I'd say it's been about 50-50 in terms of
whether articles mention that the Toaster is based around an Amiga.
To find out what he said you have to buy the tape.
Ben
Benjamin,
Right now, the decision to go with the PC or the Amiga is this: are you
going to use the keyboard/mouse of the PC to drive the Amiga/Toaster, or
are you going to use the keyboard/mouse of the Amiga to drive the
Amiga/Toaster??
I don't think that you are going to see a Pacific Rim clone of the
Toaster anytime soon, either.
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Jonathan,
I think it goes a lot deeper than just "driving" with a mouse and
keyboard. It seems to me that a heck of a lot of software went into it
too. Was it done in (portable 'C') or 68K?
Ben
Benjamin–
Actually, right now, it does not go a lot deeper than simply using your PC
for remote control. You are running the Amiga/Toaster combo using a remote
control panel, under Windows.
Of course, if the PC were doing something else, like running
editing software, and simply triggering the Toaster for effects during an
A/B roll, I could see it. However, there is no editing software that I am
aware of that works under Windows…and I doubt that Windows could handle
these two tasks (editing and Toaster control) at the same time…it fairly
chokes on any serial task.
Since you can edit and Toast on one Amiga using multitasking, why
not keep it on the Amiga? What advantage is there to using the PC version
of the Toaster? It seems to me like driving your Ferrari…by towing it
from a tow truck. There is no advantage to doing so.
Jonathan
Hi everyone!
My name is Lee Stranahan – I'm the former editor and publisher of
BreadBox (a Toaster only newsletter) and founder of the largest Toaster
user's group in the world (we had 120 people at our first meeting – not a
mob, but pretty good).
I'm also going to be working for NewTek (Jame Herbert, the sysop
here, a and I worked together on the manual for System 2.0) and giving
James a hand whe needed.
The PC Toaster is much more then a remote control – by allowing you
to transfer files quickly and easily to and from the Toaster, you can use
Harvard Graphics, 3D Studio, and other PC type applications with your
Toaster produced videos. Many advantages for those with an investment in
the PC (or Mac, BTW).
But if you already have 3D Studio then you almost always have a Targa or
Targa type board and won't need the Toaster's NTSC output.
The problem is that the Targa board doesn't output broadcast
quality NTSC…and doesn't include (free) 24 bit paint, Character
generation, a 4 input switcher, digital video effects, real time color
effects, etc etc…I know a lot of people who have dumped their Targas for
a Toaster…
One interesting related rumour I've heard – Truevision apparently
applied a LOT of pressure to Resolution Magazine (theoretically an
independent publication) so Resolution wouldn't accept an ad from NewTek…
Well, it may not have "broadcast quality" output but you have seen a lot of
Targa output on "broadcast TV". I totally agree. Bang for the buck is not
there on the PC yet. That's the only reason I am now an Amiga owner!
Sure – run the Targa board for $10,000 dollars of stuff and the FCC
won't hunt you down…on second thought, run it through a
Toaster…cheaper.
Hi Lee! Glad to have you here on CIS.
Does BreadBox still exist?
Steve
E)%Q5
Jonathan,
A little misunderstanding, I was talking in terms of if there was a PC
version of the toaster (i.e. the toaster board itself goes in the PC and we
do not use an Amiga).
Ben
I think you guys are just a tad uninformed. Don't get me wrong, I am not a
box bigot, I have Amigas Macs, AND PCs. I believe that you should use the
right tool for the job at the time. A PC based Toaster clone just wouldn't
be possible from a purely technical and economical standpoint. The plain
fact of the matter is that unless someone puts the custom VLSI technology
on a board that essentially "emulates" what the Amiga already does (for a
lot less I might add) then you won't see anything that approaches the
Toaster on a PC any time soon. There are a couple of boards coming to
market now that will do SOME of the things toaster does on both the PC and
MAC platforms, but the cost much more and do much less. Newtek's
inspiration to create a "workstation" from an existing Amiga platform and
regard it as a standalone video peripheral for other platforms is the most
expedient solution for folks like yourselves. I must admit that it would
have been more elegant (and expensive) to strip the custom chip technology
from the Amiga and install it in some other form such as a board or smaller
standalone product, but alas the problems of getting new designs approved
by various federal agencies for sale is too lengthy to satisfy market
demands. Before I get off my soapbox, just one last thing; Toaster has
forever changed the face of media and computers, and it's relatively
affordable, considering it's impact and what it can do, having to cast a
blind eye to it's Amiga heritage is little to ask of those who still
believe that you must only have "one" universal computer platform.
Frank,
What does the Video Toaster use that is particular to the Amiga chipset
(aside from buss interface signals).
Ben
Ben
<What does the Video Toaster use that is particular to the Amiga chipset
(aside from buss interface signals)?>
You would have to ask Tim Jennison to get a real straight answer to that
question, but my guess is that since it isn't yet compatible with the new
3000 Denise, that it would at least have something to do with that
particular chip. The primary issue regarding the use of the Amiga I believe
is that the Amiga was designed from the ground up to be a Video Machine,
conforming to existing standards for the video world from the get go. Tim
blew the doors off other developers when he brought DigiView to the Amiga,
at the time, nobody thought of doing any kind of image processing on that
level with what was perceived as a "game box" at the time. Both PC's and
Mac's were originally designed as their own standards for signal timing and
image processing, in order to maintain bacwards compatability they have
been locked in to those standards somewhat. In my opinion, it would have
seemed the fastest way to get the product to market by using an existing
low cost video friendly platform (ie the Amiga) as opposed to ground up
development on a PC or Mac despite the larger installed base of machines in
those camps.
Frank
Frank,
I was under the impression that the card did all of the work. That is
video enters and exits the toaster, not the amiga.
Ben
Ben,
I'm sure if it was as simple as that then there WOULD be toaster boards
for PCs and MACs. Tim Jennison Founder of Newtek, and general all around
Amiga guru has managed to get the Amiga hardware to do things that even the
inventors of the technology were suprised at. That's not to say that there
aren't plenty of other very knowledgable people in the Newtek organization
who contributed greatly to the product, especially on the software side.
Making a simple statement like "video enters and exits the toaster, not the
amiga" is like saying that the pilot flying the space shuttle does all the
work instead of giving some credit to the engineers who designed the craft
in the first place. No hostility intended in that remark, just want you to
understand the complexity of the situation, it's just not all that simple,
or there would be a hundred toaster clones on the market.
Frank
The Toaster uses the Amiga's video coprocessors (3) for quite a few
low-level chores. These Amiga custom chips include a blitter, a display
list coprocessors, and hardware sprite animation channels. To duplicate a
toasteer without an amiga, one would need to recreate these custom chips.
add to this the fact that the Amiga video signals already run at NTSC
rates, meaning scan conversion is not necessary and the amiga software has
a real-time preemptive multi-tasking multi-processor kernal and dual-proted
memory which allow the coprocessors and cpu to operate simultaneously, and
efficiently. These software features are still not available on
microcomputers without something like unix or os/9 maybe…
Frank,
The video shows what the Toaster can do but it didn't go into any of
the tech. specs. about the board. But my knowledge has quadrupled since I
have been hanging around this forum.
Ben
I'm glad to hear we've help you learn something…that's really
what it's all about…
NewTek will send you tech specs – or if you want, drop me your
address and I'll send the specs – the Toaster was run through a big
expensive test generator and the specs include vectorscope readings and all
that fun stuff!
The Toaster uses Amiga chips to do some of the work – as well as
the Motorola 68000, etc…it NEEDS those chips to do what it does, but the
4 custom VLSI chips on the Toaster don't seem to hurt…
Yes and I saw from a previous message from Aki to Frank that the support
chips are coprocessors so if a toaster were made for the PC it it would
certainly be "heavier".
Why do you think that C= or Newtek are the only folks able to design ASICS?
All you need is a few good people and about $100,000 to do one! There ARE
chips on the market that ARE doing the same functions of the Toaster. They
are just not all on one board. Heck, go look at a TI34020 GSP chip and see
what it can do with video. Add a good flash ADC and a VLSI for the digital
processing effects, switching and then use the Motorola chip for NTSC
output and you now have a PC Toaster! Or, go look at Matrox boards and some
of the DVE they have in the Iluminator board. Just add a switcher and you
are getting real close to the hardware aspects of the Toaster.
What made the Toaster so special was NOT the hardware aspects of the
product. But they rolled it all together. The 3D program is worth the price
of the Toaster alone compared to the PC worlds prices. I use Major PC
software. And I swear that Lightwave is the slickest 3D program I've seen
in a while. If the darn thing didn't flicker you would have almost the best
on the market.
You'll get no argument from me about Toaster's "all in one" concept, or
taking Aln Hasting's VideoScape 3-D program up to the next logical step and
incorporating it into the product. I think if you look at the business
climate at the time Tim was developing the Toaster, you will remember that
everybody (major players in the PC/Mac Software realm) was still in love
with desktop publishing, not desktop video. Multimedia was supposedly the
new frontier but after the success of Toaster, some major re-thinking is
going on in those camps.
Well, the PC has been used for a long time for video. The Targa board is
the defacto standard in that arena. True, graphics was an after thought on
the PC. But it's not that hard to get NTSC Video out of a PC. I do think
the Toaster is fantastic. I love it. It has some very irritating qualities,
but so does my PC. I bought it simply for the bang to buck ratio. If an
earlier blurb I read about being able to xfer 3D Studio files to the
Toaster for output is true then I will like it even better. But I would
still prefer to have it in my PC. A 486-33 runs circles around my A2000. I
would pay up to $3K for a PC version. Well, would have untill Newtek had
the price increase. Now I don't even know if I'll upgrade my Toaster or
not. I may just wait for the PC version that will come out. Probably NOT
from Newtek.
NTSC flickers…that's life – if it's the interface flicker that
bothers you, just use a flicker fixer and multisync monitor.
I think you are WAY oversimplifying the Toaster hardware – first of
al we haven't really seen it pushed to the limits yet. Second, if there
were an easy way to do the Toaster, someone would have done the damn thing
– you say to look at the Matrox board – actually LOOK at it..it's dreadful
looking, no where near the Toaster at all…don't forget the Toaster is
broadcast quality – a not small feat.
Oh I don't think I oversimplified the Toaster hardware. An you are very
wrong in the statement that "if there were an easy way someone would have
done…" What is easy for an Engineer to design is NOT allways easy to
convince a Marketing or Sales department to bring to market. I can assure
you. I see a lot of very amazing hardware every year that never gets to the
consumer. The Hardware engineering is not that difficult. And I think the
term "broadcast ready" has been used a bit too much. RS-170 compliance is
not a very difficult thing to do. But what seems to be VERY difficult to
do is convince the "powers at be" in the PC world that such a device is
needed. Remember, the PC marketing world depends upon a much greater number
of sales per product than the Amiga market does. I guess the visual
qualities of the Toaster and / or Matrox / Targa boards are in the eyes of
the beholder. I didn't like the first Matrox I saw. It was early
engineering run with a lot of wires. But it does work very well.
Benjamin (and Martin) – The main reason that NewTek will probably not come
out with a PC specific version of the Toaster is because it depends heavily
on the custom chips in the Amiga. It might be possible to release a PC
version, but the board would have to contain some of the Amiga chipset.
Yes, TR was critical of the Amiga, but he was using pre-release versions of
the Toaster software, and on the old outdated OS (AmigaDOS 1.3). I'm sure
that if he is using it on AmigaDos 2.04 now, he is not nearly as critical.
Besides, like myself, he's biased being a MAC'er for years and owning his
own MAC software company.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
And since when is Tod Rungren a fountain of computer knowledge?
That is like say that because Pres. Bush dislikes brocolli we should all
dislike brocolli!
— Alan
Russell
Todd is a pretty damn bright guy – he co-programmed the Mac
interface for the Toaster, and really knows his stuff.
Can sing a little, too.
Can we start collecting alternate lyrics for "Change Myself"? "If I want
more peas in the world, then I must plant peas for myself…" 🙂
If I did the PC interface for the Toaster, does that make me a bright guy,
too?
Fuuny stuff…I love it…
Marty
I think I have misstated the fact tho..
Just because Bill Gates says the Amiga is dead (not that he has, but humor
me) does that make it true?
Just because XXXXX says the Amiga is a bad platform because it does not do
YYYYY, does that affect reality? Maybe for XXXXX but all of us ZZZZZ's and
WWWWWW's don't have to agree .
Thanks for the reply Benjamin. I love my PC, but it looks like it is out
of its arena here…
I am really fascinated by the Toaster…I don't really know why other than
the demo video was incredibly cool. I don't have any fancy video gear.
All I currently own is a 4 head VHS VCR, and a low end Camcorder (Sony
401). If I decide to get serious about this toaster stuff, I will
undoubtably go broke in a hurry. Oh well, it's only money. We need to
stimulate the economy anyhow right…
I hope Windows continues to pick up steam. It may be our big hope.
Take care, talk with you later.
Marty
Also, TR is setting up a joint ventrure production company with NewTekd and
Amigas – The perfect machine to please everybody ain't been built yet.
If you want to to Dbase III/IV, Lotus, Wordperrfect stuff, get a PeeCee.
You want to do video, get an Amiga. The PeeCee architecture can never
measure upt to the Amiga in this arena 'cause it wasn't designed for Video.
Internal clock speeds are all wrong, there are not blitter facilities so
all that has to be added by additional hardware, which means that PeeCee
solutions will always be more expensive. And you still don't get
multi-tasking which is VERY useful in Video/Animation/Graphic arena.
BTW, the PeeCee toaster is a serial cable to an Amiga with some software to
run the switcher control panel from the PeeCee. I believe that software is
probably just an Arexx command generator. Either way, you will get the
Amiga, weather it says CBM or NewTek on the front, its an Amiga
2000/2500HD.
You know, there is an old proverb about using a saw to drive a nail…:^}
wmc
Wayne,
I am not familiar with the Amiga but I was under the impression that
all of the video stuff was being handled by the VT card, not the Amiga.
The main thing I was interested in was the animation. I'm currently
investiaging various 24bit color cards and software to do this on the PC
and Unix. The frustating thing is that a single frame VTR is $$. Does the
Amiga have a way of getting around this?
Ben
RE: Single Frame VTR. Yeah, the price is a dose of reality. The way
around it is to string together short snippets of realtime animation and
splice 'em together using a merely frame-accurate VTR like the NEC PC-VCR
(which has an Amiga interface).
This approach requires a decent amount of disk storage capacity and an
accelerated Amiga. Also incremental $$. — Art
Maybe in the next year or so when 16 megabit DRAMS become affordable, it
will be possible to shove a few 100 megs of RAM onto an Amiga. Then you
could play back a 24 bit anim by simple page-flipping. 🙂 I hear that
NewTek has a prototype in the works….
Jim,
unfortunately, even on an A3000 with megabucks of memory, you can't play
deep-color animations faster than 7-10 frames/second. The problem is,
millions-of-colors cards use hi-res pictures to convey information, and
that 4-bitplane display leaves few bus cycles for the 680×0 to access Chip
RAM. This is why a company is presently hyping something called the "Chip
RAM accelerator": with today's fast machines, the problem is not CPU speed
but limited access to Chip RAM. A 32-bit version of the Amiga chipset would
go a long way towards alleviating these woes; another solution would be to
increase Chip RAM from 2 Meg to 4, 8 or 16, so that we could preload all
our frames into Chip RAM and then page-flip at any speed up to 60
frames/second.
Blaq! – via Whap!
Charles,
I'm not talking about using the existing Amiga chipset or the handy
extenders like HAM-E,DCTV, and Colorburst. In fact, I'm not thinking of
using chip ram either. What I had in mind was about 600 megabytes of RAM.
When the 16megabit chips become widely available, that much RAM could be
squeezed into 300 chips -say 5 Zorro III cards. The deep color display card
would have access to this RAM in place of the usual display memory on those
cards. Then the system could preload all of the frames and let the
Toaster/IV24/Firecracker etc. do the page flipping. I suppose it would
still be cheaper to get a single-frame VCR, but chip prices generally fall.
Jim
Jim –
> What I had in mind was about 600 megabytes of RAM.
>
> I suppose it would still be cheaper to get a single-frame VCR, but
> chip prices generally fall.
My estimate is that, by a year or so after 16Mbit chips are out, that much
RAM would cost about $10000 or less.
. . . . . JimDoc
JimDoc,
That's about what I guestimated all that RAM would cost. Less than the cost
of a writable video disk. I believe those start at 12 kilobucks. It's about
twice the cost of the least expensive tape deck that I know of. I suppose
there could be some applications that would justify that sort of expense.
They haven't reached the limits of RAM chip density either….
Jim
PC-VCR is not a solution for animation – so says NEC, anyway.
Art,
Do these snippets get output out 30 unique frames a second? How many
frames can you do that way in one shot? Do you also mean that the NEC unit
can't do single frames but it can do a bunch of frames with single frame
accuracy?
Ben
Yes, you can get out 30 fps…of what, though? I have little personal
experience. More memory means you can store more frames. Faster machines
will play 'em faster. Compromises in the anim itself (e.g. fewer colors,
simpler backgrounds) will go a long way to boost the max number of frames
and the playback rate. A lower budget requires (fosters?) greater
creativity.
Amiga World had a good article approx 4 months ago on tricks to get a
better frame rate. — Art
The NEC deck is not frame accurate…it's close, but close isn't
good enough in animation. The animation on the Toaster is output through a
single frame controller, just like on $50,000 systems…
Ben,
The Toaster is buffering (frame buffers) and synching sources and working
all sorts of digital effects on incomming Time Base accurate sources (live
camera feeds, frame buffers, TBCX'd tapes) and then ships a broadcast
quality signal out. However, you can do quite a bit of video with just a
Native amiga, a genlock and a singleframe controller.
The Amiga can't help with the frame accuracy of the tape, though. The
expense is that you are telling a machine to stop/start recording at a
specific fram/field value on the tape. So the tape mechanism has to be
abel to provide itself its own feed back machanism sot know when it gets
there. For starting it has to back up and be able to tell when it hits the
desired point at the full speed of the tape and to turn on the record
spigot so the incomming signal splashes down on the tape at the right spot
regardless of mechanical wow, flutter and tape stretch. The solution
requires technology that most people don't need, hence its expensive.
I have heard of people doing good stuff with just a titler, animation
software, Panasonic 1960s and something like Showmaker or the Video 1 edit
controller. I believe that is +/- 2 frame and for a lot of stuff is "good
enough" to look reasonably professional. You don't get all those nice
Toaster wipes tho :^(
wmc
Martin/Benjamin Thought I would jump in here for a line or two and give my
two cents. Martin, in my opinion, as far as the Amiga versa Mac-PC's in
relation to video, the Amiga has been the leader in desktop for the last
four years. And will be for the next two, not because of CBM, but in spite
of them. The Amiga could have turned out to be another TI or 64, but
because of its third party support like Newtek and others, I think it will
be around for quite some time. I have not seen anything that the Mac does
that the Amiga can't do as well or better in the video field. As far as
PC's, they still have a way to go. When you bring price into the equation
the Amiga is a clear winner. I would like to say that if it was not for
Newtek, I probably would not have stayed with the Amiga. A computer is a
tool to do a job, and at this time the Amiga is doing it very nicely. Of
course so is my old 8088pc for what I am using it for. As far as TR is
concerned, I can understand why he would prefer a format he is used to, but
he did use a Toaster and a Amiga not a Mac to do his video. Yes, he used
fourteen of them, but my understanding is that was because of his time
limits not the Toaster's ability to accomplish the task. Yes, the Amiga has
my vote for now. And who knows maybe CBM will wake up soon :->
Good luck….
Richard,
I am not critisizing the use of the Amiga. I admit that I came on a
little too strong with the stuff about the mistakes that TI made. It is
very easy to say how other people should spend their time and money,
however, I believe that in view of the much greater popularity of PC's it's
a shame that there's nothing like this for the PC. If you've already got a
compatible computer then the VT costs less than half of what it does if you
needed to buy the computer too. I'm not a business major but I do know
that when something costs less you sell more.
From my own personal experience, I am heavily invested in PC's and
video is a hobby for me. With my hobby budget I can justify putting in
perhaps $1000+ a year for a major piece of equipment but not $4000+. When
I first heard about the Toaster (and false impressions that there was going
to be a PC version) and heard that the board and software goes for about
$1500 I was ready to snap one up (OK I would have to do a little sweet
talking to my wife) but now that I find it is only Amiga compatible and
that it would cost dramatically more, I decided to go with a new Hi-8
camcorder this year instead.
If you're a video pro then even if you have to add a new computer to
the stable this is still the bargan of the century however for the amature
(as in my case) compatibility with an existing computer makes a big
difference in the cost. For now, I'm just going to sit on the sidelines.
Ben
Hi Richard. Thanks for the reply. You sound happy with the Amiga
Envir…that says a lot for the system.
I hate the thought of dumping big bucks into a new arena, but I may have to
if I play to get the standard among Video.
Keep those good tips coming. Being in the Alaska boonies, it is hard to
come by good info. No Amiga users where I am. Very small town and only
PC's and Macs to the best of my knowledge. Thanks for passing along some
info my way.
I too am heavily invested in the PC world. But, forget the idea of using
the Toaster with your PC. Just bite the bullet and buy the Amiga 2000 bare,
add a drive and SCSI controller, a speed up kit of some kind, and the
Toaster. This is the cheapest way to go. I can see no advantage of tying my
486-33 up running communications software to control the Amiga when I can
control it with it's own mouse just fine. True it is frustrating not having
a "Toaster" for the PC. But just wait. It will happen. Your best bet today
IS the Amiga. The OS will drive a PC DOS person n nuts! But as someone else
said, it's a tool to do the job. Just because you have all XYZ brand
hammers dosen't mean you can't buy a ZZZ brand screwdriver!
Actually, teh PC Toaster will be a reality, but it will be a standalone
toaster workstation with a link to the PC and some windows software. You
could buy the Toaster system now, and get the PC connection when it is re
ady. Getting the configured box from newtek will save more hassles and
give better support than if you configured your own system and save d a few
hundred. remember that Topas software for 3d rendering on a PC Targa system
costs over 8000.. and that doesn't include the PC, RAM or Tagra card.
No, what I mean is there WILL be a board for the PC that duplicates the
Toaster functions and it will plug into the PC slot. I happen to know of a
board that is in development now.
Larry-
>>…there WILL be a board for the PC that duplicates Toaster
functions…<<
I'd be really interested to hear about this board – who is making it, how
much will it cost, exactly what will it do…
Jonathan
– via Whap!
Sorry, can't say who when or how much. I know a group is working on it.
I believe it will be impossible for anyone to have a product that can
compete with the Toaster anytiome within 15 months. Knowing the guys at
newtek, they will have something even better by then. Competing at both
price and quality levels is very difficult, and mostcompanies will look at
the situation and the market lead and try to develop products that work
with the Toaster. The video signals coming from even Targa's are not really
up to FCC spec, and things like quicktime and Matrox are not even close,
although they are actually acheiving different things (the reverse of the
toaster, creating RGB displays from video, rather than processing a video
signal with RGB computer tools.)
We shall see won't we? Nothing is impossible. But true, they will have a
battle to compete with the Newtek price. But if they keep raising the price
of the Toaster….?
Have you the Toaster System 2.0 tape yet? Or seen a list of
features? I've UL'd one to the libs section, so take a peek at it – the
price change was for 2.0 – and the workstation price is $4600…
RE : Last message – Broadcast Quality isn't the eye, it's in the
scope..the Toaster meets RS-170A, as well as the tougher FCC standards,
AND is being used on network TV (like NBC's Unsolved
Mysteries)..and is starting to have a pretty major impact in Hollywood –
something no other Toaster wanna-be has done or will do…
Yea, got the 2.0 tape Saturday. Real cool!
The os will drive a pcdos person nuts??
Why??
cd : instead of cd\ no cd.. to go back a level info to do a dir with file
dates / sizes the irritating format command no chkdsk That's just a few
reasons the Amiga's OS drives me nuts. I start working on my PC after a few
hours of "Toasting" and get frustrated as to why I can't use cd : on my PC
only to remember I'm on a different machine. I think I'm gonna write an add
on for PC DOS to include the Amiga commands a and vice versa.
You are a typical dos bigot. Use CD \ to go back one dir.
You would surly have a hard time with technological dos's such as amiga
dos, or unix..
or cp/m or any other OS that was not exactly like PeeCissy dos. But,
thats ok. Once you get use to the power of Amiga Dos, and learn to write
script files you can do what ever you want with the commands. Their are
many PD commands for you PC types to make the amiga more PeeCissy'ish. You
might try looking through CIS's amiga user disk utilties software library..
Good luck..
As for me, I use Unix, PeeCissy dos, Amiga Dos, Mac's, and CP/M.. I am
used to typing the wrong command, and I have alised most of the ADos stuff
so that if I type 'ls -la' amiga dos does a list..
How the HELL can you call me a typical DOS Bigot?!!! What I do see is
folks putting down PC Dos in the Amiga world. They act like it is a plague
or something! I recently investigated the Mac world, and saw the same type
of slandering of MSDOS. I think it's time for Amiga / Mac owners to stop
slamming other computers and just be happy with what they have. Let the
sales records decide who has the "best" computer. I won't slam a Vic 20 or
an Altair 8000 either! Heck, I have had just about every "PC" that has come
around. I just wish Amiga Dos could decide if it's Unix or DOS!
"I just wish Amiga Dos could decide if it's Unix or DOS!"
I suspect you said that in the heat of the moment, eh? Amiga Dos is just
that, AmigaDos.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Rock N' Roll Larry!
I thought Alan Russell was way out of line. He should start drinking decaf
or something. Lighten up Alan. You came across as a major league snob.
I am not saying this is the case, but many people perceive the Amiga as a
toy, not a serious business tool. I am not saying this is the case, that
is merely the perception of many in the business world. The Amiga is not a
"Professional" computer. You certainly don't help this perception change
Alan. Very un-prof. reply to Larry.
Just had to get my say in, hope I haven't ticked off to many, but I felt
something must be said about Alans' reply to Larry
-Marty
I think any computer can be used as a professional tool. I love my A2000!
But, I LOOOOVE! my PC more! ( it's made me much more $$$ so far!)
Larry, It is impossible to slander an MS-DOS machine — nothing said about
then can ever be as bad as those machines are.
-sja
> How the HELL can you call me a typical DOS Bigot?!!!
Gee, larry, it really isn't hard, when you go right on to say things like:
> Let the sales records decide who has the "best" computer.
First of all, the SALES records have no bearing whatever on quality, and
secondly, if they did, it would be apparent that the "best" computer is the
Commodore 64 !
. . . . . JimDoc
But, "Quality" dosen't mean 1 machine is "Better" than another does it? All
I meant about the sales records is this: The Amiga is a good machine. The
Marketing by C= sucks swamp water. The PC's have so much more to offer the
"normal business market" than the Amiga does. The Amiga being a great video
machine does NOT make it the "best" computer on the market. I think sales
records ARE a good way to judge a device. If folks aren't buying them like
they do another machine then why??? Could be a crummy marketing
department, or could be the machine has been left far behind in most of the
real worlds needs.
Larry, when the Amiga was introduced in 1985 it WAS the best home computer
on the market, period. CBM is what has kept it from being a major force in
the market, first by their lack of marketing, and now being too slow to
keep up with current technology. Sales records are a poor way to judge a
computer. The ONLY reason that the PC market is where it is today is
because of the initials IBM, not because the XT and various clone's were
better. If IBM would have purchased the Amiga instead of CBM, then it would
be the #1 sales leader, and people would have a much better computer, IMHO.
No other reason.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
Wrong! IMHO. The reason the PC took off is 'cause some other companies
created a compatible version of the system rom and then started making
"work alikes" or if you prefer "clones" of the PC. The IBM name didn't hurt
anything but remember the prices? The PC didn't really zoom untill the
lower price clones appeared. This caused millions of compatible plug in
boards and replacement parts to become available. Then major software
vendors started writing code for them. And viola! we had a psuedo standard.
Than IBM introduced the AT. The cloners did it better and faster. Now, look
at the MAC. It's a closed machine and you won't find any legal ROMS for it
unless Apple sells them. Look at the sales records between PC's and Macs. I
do agree if CBM would get some marketing people that knew what they were
doing they would be a bigger force. But, the PC is a hard act to follow.
No dought the easy cloning of the IBM PC's is what set off the clone
explosion, but it was still because of the initials IBM that they chose to
clone that particular model, and because IBM jumped into the market before
CBM did. Remember at that time CBM was still selling the C-64/128 series,
not a very professional computer. But when CBM did release the Amiga, it
was too late for them to make an impact on the market. The masses had
already been brainwashed into believing that the PC was THE computer, not
because it was technologically superior, but because everyone had one so
people automatically think "Gee, if most of my friends have a PC, then it
must be better!". Yeah, right <grin>. But enough computer bashing for now.
Actually the best computer is the one you are using at this time. People
have different ideas on what they think is the right computer. I use a 286
clone at work because I'm forced to, but a Amiga 3000 at home because I
like it 8^) And I'm sure you feel the same way about your computer also.
John
Using this sort of logic, the PC is better than a Cray…..
Steve
Larry,
Regarding someone coming up with a toaster to go in the PC.. .
I can understand your hope. I started on PC's 5 years ago. I needed to do
mult multimedia and wanted good desktop publishing, so I got into Macs. I
am a self-confessed Mac fanatic now. I hoped for great Mac video products,
and have done a little investing. I've got the Truevision NuVista+ card,
and at $3,000, it's a far cry from a Toaster. The Video Explorer is
available, it's got great digital video effects and comes with a great
software combo, for $9,000.00. The reason the Video Explorer costs so much,
is it is having to put all that video technology on a card that fits into
the Mac–to make up for the Mac's lack of video capability… It's like
having to put an entire new computer system inside the Mac.
Even if I combined the above products, I still would only have 50% of what
an Amiga/Toaster combo can do.
We have All models of DOS machines, Macs, Sun SparcStations, IBM RISC, and
o others. Why? Because they're the right tools for the job.
Sure, I could wait for a Video Toaster lookalike to go in my PC or Mac and
spend over $10,000, or– I can get an excellent tool right now, and use
up a little more desk space.
I'm putting my Mac and PC biases aside and getting the Toaster.
I think you'll be waiting a long time for a PC solution that provides what
the toaster can.
Bob Lane Logicon RDA Los Angeles
> "Quality" dosen't mean 1 machine is "Better" than another does it?
Well, that may be PRECISELY the point at which we differ….
> The Marketing by C= sucks swamp water.
Well, I might have said, "sucks rat turds", but we agree there….
> Amiga being a great video machine does NOT make it the "best" computer
> on the market.
I'll agree there. But selling bazillions of AT's doesn't make them the
best, either. Part of the problem here is that we are educated to think
"Sears style", i.e., "good-better-best" — a LINEAR scale. So some product
must be BEST. However, it's an inappropriate way to look at this sort of
judgment, because
Amigas are better than Macs or PeeCees, IN SOME WAYS
Macs are better than Amigas or PeeCees, IN SOME WAYS
PeeCees are better than Amigas or Macs, IN SOME WAYS.
It's a multidimensional evaluation, not a linear scale.
Is the NEXT a rotten, incompetent machine because so few are sold? Is the
Cray?
. . . . . JimDoc
Sales will only establish which is the best selling computer, not the BEST
one. Each platform has it's specific strengths and weaknesses. On of
Amiga's weaknesses are it's manufacturerer's lack of advertising, which is
the MSDOS's machines' strengths, their advertising.
JMTCW Rodger
– via Whap!
Larry,
There is a BIG diff in the OS from MS-DOS to AmigaDOS. I use both, have for
6 years, but I can't see _anyone_ liking MS_DOS better. Just look at your
CD example. How do you cd from C:\Utilities to D:\Tools on MS_DOS???? You
have to use TWO cd's. First to get to d:, then to the directory, if you
were not there b4. With AmigaDOS Cd DH2:Tools works NO MATTER WHERE YOU
ARE!!! Seems a _little_ more intuitive and simpler to me!!! 🙂
David McCabe
WHAP!ping from Montreal! :^)
Oh come on here. Give me a break David. Is that the best you can do?
Sheesh. What an obsure example. I mean really, what percentage of users
would have to worry about such a thing? Not many. Most machines only have
one hard drive, and if they have a decent version of DOS, then they can
have a huge drive as one partition. For those of us with more than one
drive, so what if you have to type D: to move to the other drive! If it
annoys you so much, write a batch file, it will take all of about 15
seconds.
Is this really worth nit-picking over. I think if you are judging
operating systems on that issue, well…nuff said.
I admit, I was all hot and heavy to purchase a video toaster, but man, a
DOS person begins to feel very unwelcome here.
I appreciate all of the help most of you have given me. You are generous
with your time and I thank you for that. I think you guys have THE machine
for Video Production. I am envious of you with toasters. But lets face
it, as most of us know, machines and operating systems excel at different
tasks. Lets not forget the DOS and the PC can do some pretty good stuff.
Marty
Martin:
Please try to take some of the heat your getting with a grain of salt…
you have to understand that most of us who use the Amiga have chosen it
because we've had experience working with other desktop platforms (?) and
find them very limiting when compared with AmigaDos, while non Amiga users
have no experience with it, and usually have some misconceptions. That's
not to say that other systems don't do their intended jobs very well; it
just illustrates that AmigaDos and the multitasking environment in which it
resides, makes doing a lot of creative things much easier for us.
If you get a hostile reply to something you said, it's usally because
someone picked up on it in the middle of the thread, and just reacted.
We're kinda used to Mac folk dropping in here once in awhile to do nothing
but 'flame' the Amiga. PLEASE don't take it personally… remember that
this is a scrolling message base! One other thing we tend to forget here,
is that, just as the upgrades to AmigaDos have done their best to keep
downward comapatibility with older versions, MSDOS has done the same, and
since the MSDOS operating system is 5 years older, and has an installed
base something like 35 times that of the Amiga, to a certain degree, IBM &
MicroSoft have hand their hands tied… you can't just leave that many
installed machines in the dust with a new operating system or hardware
environment that breaks ALL of the old software at once. Yes, we do tend to
hate MicroSoft and IBM for saddling the world with what we feel is an
antiquated computing system, and trying to 'fix' it with kludges like
Windows… but hey, the success of msdos has been its biggest nemesis…
and we tend to forget that.
<Amiga users: please don't take offense at the "we"s & "our"s… if you
disagree, and I'm sure that some of you do, speak up!>
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
Hi Micheal.
Thanks for the reply. You had some good points. I am intersted in the
Amiga. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be stopping here to this message base
everyday to try and learn. I know the Amiga can do some things better than
the PC, and my guess is that the PC can do certain things better than the
Amiga.
I am sorry if I came on a little strong, but If the Amiga is so much
better, then I want to hear why…and an obscure example of the CD is not
exactly swaying me. If anything, it makes me suspicous. I mean, if that
is the best example of the Amigas superior performance, then I am not
impressed. What of the multitasking? If it is a true multitasker, then
that would be hot. I say true multitasker, because many would call Windows
a multitasker, and it is to a certain degree. I would not call it a
multitasker, but it does have certain multitasking abilities. What exactly
does multitasking mean on the Amiga side? I would really like it if
someone would explain this to me.
I am not hear to bash Amigas. I am looking for reasons to buy one. I just
think a certain amount of fairness would be in order.
Marty
"I just think a certain amount of fairness would be in order."
Martin:
You're right.
Yes, the Amiga is a true Multitasking machine. I'm going to have to let
some of the hardware gurus here go in to more details of the how's and
why's, though. I'm just a user. But, I'll start the info by saying this:
The Amiga, unlike the MAC or PC, was designed from the ground up for
multitasking. On the hardware side, the 680×0 chip doesn't need to handle
all of the system calls because it is supported dirctly and indirectly by a
custom chip set made by CBM. You may have heard the funny names AGNUS (fat
agnus, fatter agnus), GARY (gate array) DENISE… well these are the chips
that take the pressure off of the 680×0 so that it can manage the bus.
Macs and PC's can run several programs at once, but only through task
sharing and pre-emptive multitasking… dividing the cpu's time among
tasks. That can be quite effective, but requires lots of muscle (memory and
speed). An Amiga 2000 with a 7.14 Mhz 68000 based cpu, running AmigaDos,
makes a 386 16 Mhz running windows 3 'on top of' dos, look like it's
asleep.
You see the multitasking is part of the OS. And the GUI of the Amiga is a
direct link to the OS, not a front end (like windows) to the OS.
Well, I'm already slipping into areas that I don't know enough about to do
anything but misinform, but, I'm sure that others will explain in better
detail.
BTW, thanks for taking the time to stop in here and inquire! I don't think
you came on strong at all… like I said, we just tend to be a bit thin
skinned 🙂
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
I think you meant that Mac's and PC's can have cooperative multitasking,
and that the Amiga does pre-emptive multitasking…right?
Steve
cooperative multitasking & pre-emptive multitasking
Thanks Steve… ofcourse, your right. I told him I didn't know the
nomencalture 🙂 I hope that these forums can really start to become a
better source of Amiga information for the NON Amiga user. It seems as
though we're seeing a lot more activity from Pc'ers and I hate to see them
leave here with a bad impression of the Amiga community.
– Whapp!ng from the North Coast Michael
It's not the hardware, its the software running it. On a PC, No
multitasking with raw dos. Non preemptive multi tasking with windows and
full preemptive multi tasking with DesqView and Unix.
Ben
Martin –
I'm sure you'll get _mucho_ replies, but there aren't any as I write this,
so…
AmigaDOS is a true _cooperative_ multitasking environment, and it
multitasks in as little as 500K of RAM, and fits, uncompressed, on a single
880K floppy.
It does not require (as I understand MS-DOS does) that each task
voluntarily relinquish the CPU, but instead the CPU parcels out the time to
the various running tasks.
It is not AT ALL unreasonable to be harvesting messages from CIS (via
WHAP!) on one screen, while at the same time un-LHARCing a file on another
screen that you just D-L'd, and reading the messages from the previous
forum with an editor on a 3rd screen. If the individual tasks are not very
CPU-intensive, they don't even noticeably slow down! If they ARE
CPU-intensive, and you have an '030 or '040 machine, you may STILL not
notice any slowdown. And add in some graphics-intensive project at the
same time, like re-creating Yosemite valley or Valles Marineris using Vista
Pro, or ray-tracing a complex 3D scene.
Another of its strong points, for me, is that it can utilize BOTH the
command line interface (CLI), like MS-DOS, AND the graphical user interface
(GUI), like Macintosh, and do both at the same time. My wife is more
graphically oriented, and tends to use the GUI almost exclusively; I use
them about equally; AND WE DON'T HAVE TO RESET ANYTHING BETWEEN USERS TO DO
THAT. But I hate unnecessary typing, so I have a raft of aliases and short
script commands (MS-DOS => ".BAT") to let me use 1- or 2-character
mnemonics.
The two strongest features, I think, about the Amiga and its operating
system, are
1) Designed-in-the-hardware video compatibility, opening a wealth of
hardware and software products for interfacing with the video world. Of
[ MORE ]
[ continuation ]
course these things CAN be done on other platforms, but the above-mentioned
compatibility means they can be done _inexpensively_ on the Amiga.
2) Built-into-EVERY-machine graphics co-processors. A minimal Amiga 500
system with an adaptor to display on TV so you can save the cost of a
monitor can be bought for around $400, and it can do ray-tracing, video
titling (I guess you would need a genlock for that), or the previously
mentioned landscape re-creation. Slowly and inconveniently, to be sure,
with no hard drive and no accellerator and limited RAM, but even the basic
system can DO it!
. . . . . JimDoc
Larry,
the fact that AmigaDOS is _different_ from MS-DOS does not automatically
make it _inferior_. I, for one, like the device names; the looooonng,
descriptive filenames; the file comments; the ASSIGN command that makes
installing most any software on your hard disk a one-line addition to the
startup-sequence. It also makes stuff portable: I have an IMAGINE: assign
mapped to one of my directories. If I copy an Imagine project onto a floppy
and give it to a friend, all he has to do is assign IMAGINE: to wherever he
copied the files and presto. I cringe at those cryptic 8-character
filenames and directory names on the PC.
"BeerCompany.imp/24bit.pix/BeerBottleBowling.anim" is certainly more
informative, especially when combined with a file comment that says "client
wants timing tightened".
Your situation is no worse than that of countless folks using multiple
machines. I use MS-DOS on the PC, TACL on Tandem, AOS on Data General and
AmigaDOS at home. I can appreciate each system's advantages and faults. It
just takes an open mind.
Blaq! – via Whap!