#Wow! More Amiga HD fun!
116 messages in this thread
I know the Amiga-cultists will cause lightening to strike me if I
ever even intimate that the Amiga may be less than perfect.
So instead, let me tell you about some really neat undocumented
features pertinent to the Amiga that you won't find on any of those
other machines that lesser souls buy by the millions.
Seems the Amiga is finicky about what kind of IDE HD you hook up to
it. Isn't that groovy? I can put any drive into my Intel or Mac PC's
and those silly machines just let you do it – but not the
ever-so-sophisticated and packed-with-great-features Amiga.
I installed two new Maxtor MXT-540 IDE drives today in an effort to
get away from the We-Won't-Do-No-ColdBoot feature of the Amiga
running with the Seagate 3390's I installed a few weeks back.
(Another great Amiga feature I've discovered is that there is no
technical support from Commodore. Cool! Sure wish those "idiots" who
use Intel and Mac's could enjoy this sophisticated feature!)
Installation went just fine. No ability to cold boot from the HD, of
course, because that doesn't seem to be an Amiga feature.
(Incidentally, am I the only one to notice that none of the people
who were attacking me for "bashing" the Amiga came up with a solution
to my inability to cold boot with the Seagate drives?)
Then when I went to install Video Toaster, it stalled repeatedly on
Disk 9 with a "Error Creating Toaster/Lightwave" message and the
install aborted.
A NewTek technician had the answer handy: the Maxtor's are on a list
of "not recommended" drives from Commodore. Wow! To think of all the
years I've wasted shoving drives into Intel and Mac boxes, never
having to worry about whether a drive was "not recommended" by the
computer manufacturer. (According to this source, there are precisely
four drives "recommended" by Commodore, none larger than 120Meg. –
and the list is not public.)
The NewTek folks gave me a new string to insert in the "MaxTransfer"
box under advanced options.
It didn't work. And the Amiga manual, of course, just like the
machine itself, is vastly superior to any of those other machines.
Why just look at this stunning piece of elucidation about
MaxTransfer: "Displays the hex number that determines the maximum
number of bytes to moved during each DMA transfer". Why that
explains everything! How come I never get to have so much fun on
machines so vastly inferior to the Amiga?
The drives work fine in the Intel box: took only a few minutes to
install, format and initialize them. Not nearly as sophisticated as
the Amiga, but what the heck: they work – running that stinky old
MS-DOS some Amigans claim is the pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow.
Finally, Maxtor – like Seagate – knows nothing about Amiga-specific
problems.
Now I know the cultists are going to come after me again, telling me
that I am "bashing" the object of their worship.
And you know what? I don't care.
All I want is the assistance of the more rational and emotionally
mature Amiga owners who might know how to bring up the Maxtor
MXT-540's on the Amiga 4000 at an acceptable transfer rate – instead
of telling me how wrong I am to be frustrated with the Amiga and how
I fail to truly appreciate the inate superiority of the Amiga.
The help of those who can understand my frustration with the Amiga
will be greatly appreciated.
It's difficult to believe that in 1993 there is still a computer out
there that is fussy over what kind of current production hard drive
you put into it. And this computer is made by a company that
provides virtually no technical support. I hate to tell 'em, but the
Homebrew Computer Club went south almost 15 years ago.
While I don't own a 4000 (yet), and I can not help with your problem,
maybe I can explain some: From what I gather here and on the `nets'
the 1st couple of runs of the 4000 has some serious problems with a
couple of the custom chips. Commodore is aware of these problems and
have fixed them now. The current demand for the 4000 and the
financial situation of CBM has not allowed them to address these
problem adequetly for existing machines, although it is planned to be
fixed RSN. I know this doesn't help you but I can suggest a couple
of options. Probably the best solution is to go back to your dealer
and see if he will exchange your machine for a new one with the most
current revision. Other than that you can take a temprary route
until CBM or your dealer can fix your machine is to buy a 16 bit SCSI
controller (or the more expensive 32 bit FastLane SCSI controller and
ram card (it supposedly works perfectly with all 4000s)) and change
your drives to SCSI instead of IDE. If you go the temprary 16 bit
route I understand that the GVP HC-8 works quite well as well as does
the ICD Trifecta. SCSI offers a lot of other benefits over IDE as
well, and if you plan to do much with the 4000 you will need SCSI
eventually.
It does seem you are having quite a bad experience with your new
Amiga, I am very sorry to hear this. I can understand you having
sour grapes. Your post with these problems could have been a worded
differently to avoid any flames that will be coming your way. I hope
you have your asbestos suit handy! My experience has been just the
opppsite, the amiga was my 1st computer (1987) and has given me very
little trouble expanding or maintanence wise. Actually I am now
trying to learn my way around the clone world and can not for the
life of me understand how any one can put up the mess of having
drivers for each and every expansion device, printer, video card ect
along with IRQ's (what the hell do irqs do anyway?) interupts, all
the arcane commands to remeber. et al. So I do know where you are
coming from with your frustrations. So if you need any more help
please ask but you do get more flys with syrup than vinegar.
Good luck and don't give up hope yet!
Thanks for the balanced response.
I think I found the solution – the Amiga must be rebooted after
changing the MaxTransfer parameter. The manual says nothing more than
"Select the Save Changes to Drive gadget". Several pages earlier
though on a different subject, it specified a reboot. So I tried that
and it worked.
Overall, my opinion of the Amiga (except as a host of the Video
Toaster) sinks lower with each passing day. Certainly many people
find it to be a useful tool – but the trouble I've had doing
something as simple as installing drives just doesn't make the Amiga
look very good in my eyes.
I do have the FastLane installed in my machine and in retrospect
agree that going with SCSI drives would have probably been the better
choice. But I have never encountered a problem installing IDE drives
and certainly didn't anticipate one here.
One of these days I might even get an answer to the "no cold boot"
problem.
Remember that the A4000 is the first Amiga from C= that uses IDE
drives. Well the A1200 counts too. Installing SCSI drives has always
been a snap for me with the Amiga. I tried once to install a Maxtor
245 MB drive on an Intel machine. It already had a Seacrate as the
master, so I wanted to make the new drive the master and the old one
the slave. Well, I could never get it to work, finally ended up
making the Maxtor the slave. So, you had trouble with Amiga IDE, I
had trouble with IBM-clone IDE. You bought an early A4000, with new
IDE controller, new AA chipset, etc. I am still waiting for the
problems to be resolved before I purchase any Amiga above series
3000/4000. Always willing to help if possible, give us a shout,
Yeah, they changed the IDE interface a while back and you could not get older
and newer drives to run together. That might have been what happened in your
case.
But information on rectifying the problem was readily available, unlilke the
situation with the Amiga.
In any event, I have them working now – and in the future will stick with
SCSI devices.
Jerry
Chris,
>Remember that the A4000 is the first Amiga from C= that uses IDE drives.
I thought the 600 was the first machine from Commodore to use IDE drives.
Or did your mean the fist fully 32 bit machine with AGA and expansion
slots? ;^)
jeff,
yeah that's what I meant. Of course the A600 had the IDE first. The A4000 is
really like the third, but first with expansion slots et al.
I knew someone would nitpick my statement, but that's the fun of it, huh?
Chris
<G>
It's gotten so I'm reluctant to post any facts because there's always
somebody waiting to "correct" me. ;^) By the way, I may be wrong,
but didn't the CDTV use an IDE interface and IDE CD-ROM?
You make it sound as if the Amiga is the only platform with
problems, now you know that's not true. I read most of the major
publications covering the Mac's and PC's and there is a constant
stream of criticism of both manufactures of these other platforms.
There was one particular article about Apple that tickled me one
time, it was about all the mistakes that Apple had made over the past
year or so and refused to acknowledge. I had intended to cut it out
and save so that I could harass the Apple "Worshipers" I know. Then I
thought better of it for all these mistakes by Apple have cost people
a lot of money, which they never will be able to recover.
In our case at work we have hundreds of Mac's networked to a few
hundred thousand PC's and there are constant problems. Now the one
that I get a kick out of (now, not back then) was that it took Apple
almost a year to write a printer driver that would work on the MacIIx
to print to a Apple Dot-Matrix printer.
If all the manuals are so perfect on these other platforms why do
we need to read magazines or books (Dos/Windows for dummies?) or even
join services like CIS or the others. Come to think about it, the
Video Toaster has one of the worst manuals ever written, have you
brought this up yet???
One other thing I have a friend who is going crazy trying to get
his CD-Rom drive and Soundblaster card to work together on his PC,
conflicts, conflicts, etc, oh my gosh, there nothing in the manual
that covers this, what is one to doooo???
In my last posting to you I tried to be nice, but now I'm growing
a little tired of your holier then thou attitude..
I had the same MAX-Transfer prob when I added a slave IDE drive, I
simply posted this problem here on CIS, someone got back to me and it
was fixed real fast. Last week someone posted the same prob and I
along with others posted a answer to HELP this person…
Please remember the only stupid question is the one that is not
asked..
" You make it sound as if the Amiga is the only platform with problems"
Eddie, if that's the message you're getting from my posts, then you
are reading things into them that aren't there.
I am not comparing the Amiga to any other platform.
But I am most certainly pointing out what I perceive as the
deficencies of the Amiga in the specific case of attempting to do
something as simple as install an IDE drive.
Please accept my comments as they stand without broadening them to
include "messages" that aren't there.
"I am not comparing the Amiga to any other platform"
Some quotes from you in message 118215:
"I can put any drive into my Intel or Mac PC's and those silly
machines just let you do it – but not the ever-so-sophisticated and
packed-with-great-features Amiga."
"The drives work fine in the Intel box: took only a few minutes to
install, format and initialize them. Not nearly as sophisticated as
the Amiga, but what the heck: they work – running that stinky old
MS-DOS some Amigans claim is the pot of gold at the end of the
rainbow."
I think this is the sort of thing to which Eddie is refering.
"Please accept my comments as they stand without broadening them to
include "messages" that aren't there."
I'm sure everyone here takes them in the spirit they were intended.
Geez, Steve, is the Amiga User's Forum? Or the Amiga Boosters
Forum?
Saying that I can install and IDE drive into a PC in a few minutes
without the hassles encountered on the Amiga is a statement of fact,
not a derogatory comparison.
It's the equivalent of saying that driving is generally faster than
walking. It's a factual comparison, not a comparison of perceived
benefits.
You came down pretty hard on Eddie by saying you didn't compare the
Amiga to other platforms, when in fact you did. I was merely
pointing out that you were wrong.
"Saying that I can install and IDE drive into a PC in a few minutes
without the hassles encountered on the Amiga is a statement of fact,
not a derogatory comparison."
It is a fact that you did indeed have problems installing the drive.
However, the words you chose to describe the problem were a very
derogatory and sarcastic, and that too is a fact.
"However, the words you chose to describe the problem were a very
derogatory and sarcastic, and that too is a fact."
Excuse me?
How would you describe a machine like the Amiga that turns a simple
task like installing an IDE hard drive into a trip through hell?
Am I supposed to pretend that this is some of kind of great, new
sophisticted feature? No thanks, Steve. It's an example of some very
slipshod engineering on the part of Commodore and there aren't any
flowery, polite terms to disguise the fact.
Please! Sell your Amiga and use a MAC or IBM that meets your needs.
The Amiga has no use to you, as is indicated.
"Please! Sell your Amiga and use a MAC or IBM that meets your needs.
The Amiga has no use to you, as is indicated."
Sorry, Jonathan, I have already have plenty of Mac's and DOS
machines in house. All I want the Amiga for is run the Toaster and
associated software – and I just set out to do something real simple,
like installing a drive.
I've been reading this thread and keeping quiet in hopes that all
(tempers) would calm. I think it is now time to add my $0.02.
Throughout this thread, the only "flowery" comments about C= and/or
the Amiga have been in accusatory statements made by you. Some
people in this AmigaUser forum have obviously been very careful in
chosing their words when composing replies to you, however, in each
case you have found some way to be offended and reply with increasing
fervor to each case. All Amiga users are welcome to express their
opinions and their experiences here in this forum. Freedom of speech
is practiced here as far as I can tell…until it imposes on other
persons' rights (read: becomes offensive to, or is composed so as to
give the appearance of an attack on, other members). Your last
couple of messages certainly seem to border on this condition. Some
of us are thankful for the help we get by reading about others'
experiences but do not appreciate having to wade through redundant
online b*tch sessions. As for the hard drive installation
problem…some of us can appreciate the difficulties you experienced
and empathize with you…and I have seen noone but you allude to it
being "some of kind of great, new sophisticted feature"…. I see no
reason for you to snap at any of the SYSOPs here…they are very
patient in their administration of the fora and corresponding with
members. In fact, on more than one occasion, they have even been
helpful to a member or two or three….
Could we all get out of attack mode now and get back to our regularly
scheduled programming (stepping down from atop soapbox)?
I never suggested you disguise anything. I'm just stating the fact
that your postings have been derogatory and sarcastic.
I'd appreciate it if you'd take the same advice you've given others
here. To quote you again:
'Please accept my comments as they stand without broadening them to
include "messages" that aren't there.'
You had a little problem that has a simple solution. Just because you
couldn't figure out a simpleton's problem doesn't mean that there is
something wrong with Amiga.
I think you made a mistake. You deserve PCs and MS-DOS. Whining and
pouting will at least have substance then.
"Just because you couldn't figure out a simpleton's problem doesn't
mean that there is something wrong with Amiga."
Paul:
You're ill-mannered, crude and dead wrong.
Since Amiga has reputedly made modifications to the motherboard, do
you consider them "simpletons" as well?
" You deserve PCs and MS-DOS. Whining and pouting will at least have
substance then."
Gee, Paul, that's a real intelligent statement. Really shows you off
for what you are.
Ya know, 2 weeks ago I went down to a schlock electronics store,
picked up a 170MB Connor IDE drive for $225, went home and installed
it in less than 10 minutes (and that included at least 5 minutes
removing things from on top of my 4000 and figuring out how to take
the case off). All that's required is to set the jumpers on the
original HD to tell it to expect a slave, and set the jumpers on the
new HD.
But that's only because you knew to reboot after you re-wrote the MaxTransfer
value and mask.
On the PC, it's magic, when you change a low-level system parameter like that,
it automatically recognizes it and the change magically bubbles up through the
many layers of OS. And the same happens when you accidentally insert a card
with the wrong IRQ, the PC notices it and automatically resets it for you so
you don't have intermittent problems later. And then monkeys fly out of the
monitor.
John,
Nah … HDToolBox told me a reboot was necessary and to click on
"Continue" to do so.
-sja
I think you mean monkeys fly at the monitor… monkey wrenches! 🙂
By the way.. since I am not in the middle of flaming you now. I can say
this. I liked your CD ROM article in Amiga World.
It was very well done.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
if you state that you are not comparing the Amiga to any other
platform, then you are expected to keep statements in that vein from
your postings here. Instead, you espouse one position while
advocating another, to wit, the flaws of the Amiga vis-a-vis another
machine.
Make up your mind what position you maintain and keep your
statements consistent with that position. Otherwise, don't be
suprised if others take you to task for your inconsistencies.
BTW, I'm most definitely not in the Amiga-Booster camp, but I do
not care to see someone do his best to savage any machine with
blantantly false propaganda, as you seem prone to.
While maintaining an installed base of over 5,000 PC compatibles,
I regularly ran into machines that would not interface with many an
IDE drive. When the OEM's were called, I ran into the "Lists of
approved drives" that you critique so much. These included
manufacturers such as Zenith, UniSys, etc. Don't give me a bleeding
heart story that only the Amiga suffers from such incompatibility.
Research your subject better.
All machines to date suffer from idiosyncracies, especially for
users who are willing to step outside the bounds of what the OEM
specifies. I've been bitten by this as have you and many other
denizens of the fora here. Why else would machines that are already
setup, such as the Compaq Presario, be so popular? Could it be that
not a single computer to date is easy for the typical user to setup?
Gee, I never thought of that <dripping sarcasm>.
If you are attempting to make factual comparisons, the you are
quite open to critiques, especially if you originally state that you
are not attempting to critique any one machine. Get it straight.
What are you attempting to do in your posts? Inform or critique?
What's a port address? An IRQ? ROM address space conflicts?
Configuring a PC is *easy*? Since when?
"Configuring a PC is *easy*?"
For most add-ons, yeah. Most of the common cards, like parallel printer cards
have pretty much standard non-conflicting addresses. Adding other stuff can, of
course, be challenging for anyone.
Speaking of challenges, I'm having problems mounting a SCSI framegrabber on a
Mac right now. But the differences here are that I can call Apple or the device
manufacturer and work with them to resolve the conflict.
Doesn't seem to be any provision to do that with Commodore.
Jerry
The PC can handle two parallel and two serial ports simply because
they were pre-allocated address space in the port address map. Even
this leads to problems because the ports share interrupts, leading to
virtually un-diagnosable and un-repairable bugs, short of answers
like "don't use those two ports at the same time." "Adding other
stuff can be challenging for anyone." No kidding, even a savvy PC
person might take several days effort to figure out a conflict
between IRQs, port addresses, ROM maps, DOS extenders, network cards,
SCSI cards, video cards – all that "other stuff". In other words,
adding anything to a PC often leads to emergency calls to either a
dealer or a diagnostician with PC experience.
John:
I've often wondered how many PC integrators (doing custom systems) have
been arrested for shooting anyone near them while they're trying to get a
PC to work 🙂 Seriously my local dealer will never repair a PC unless he
has at least one other system that IS working near him so he can double
check things. PC's ain't easy, Macs are much easier, and Amigas are
usually even easier.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Once again you talk about things you do not know about. Commodore
has outsourced its warranty and technical support. You can call SMG
and talk to the help desk.
"Once again you talk about things you do not know about"
Mark:
I suppose you think it's perfectly appropriate that as a registered
owner of an Amiga 4000, I received no notification of any other
resource to contact. Further, I suspect you think it's fine and
dandy that I have called Commodore on four occasions over the past
two months and received no response.
Shall I judge all Amiga dealers by your example?
I'll take the A2320 for $50, plus shipping. I've been off a few days
I hope this isn't a late reply…How, do we arrange the exchange?
Glad you got the IDE problem licked! It is frustrating learning a
new machine when you are trying to expand it too. Let me just repeat
what everyone else her has been saying: Once you get the Amiga
confiqured to your needs, give it a fair chance, I do believe you
will see what us `zeolots' have been raving about. Remember that
what you have is basicaly a new technology computer and all the ins
and outs have yet to be shaken out of it. Once you are finished
tinkerering and adding and start to get productive with it I think
you will see some of the many benefits it has to offer.
"Once you are finished tinkerering and adding and start to get
productive with it I think you will see some of the many benefits it
has to offer"
Maybe.
The first problem is maintaining my interest in a machine that makes
a simple task like installing an IDE drive difficult.
My days of getting a kick from pioneering with bug-ridden, oddball
machines are long gone. My time has to be devoted to business first,
pleasure second. The Amiga is a "toy" for me in that I don't use it
to earn a living. Therefore, my patience with it is definitely
limited.
The reality is that if I didn't want to use the Video Toaster and
associated programs, at this point I wouldn't go within a mile of an
Amiga.
One of the most common "problems" with MS-DOS machines when they are
returned to dealers in this area for service is the user's inability
to install a hard drive so that it will function as desired…. This
is usually just a configuration problem and once the correct hardware
and software settings are obtained the chosen drive works fine,
however, there are some (IDE) drive combinations which are
incompatible…and these are usually remedied by reversing the
drives.
As difficult as it may be to believe, platforms other than the Amiga
have their (hardware) problems also…which is NOT to say that the
Amiga is as good as or better than or worse than any other platform.
Quite frankly, Jerry, if you had no intention of learning a new
platform, then you should have bought your Toaster set-up from a
dealer that could configure it for you as you wanted… many dealers
offer Toaster Workstations and do custom configurations. The fact
that _you_ made the decision to do-it-yourself and then complain
about the fact that you have learn something to accomplish your
desired configuration is ridiculous.
Doing something as simple as installing a hard drive should not turn
into a nightmare, complete with undistributed lists of "recommended"
hard drives and the like.
For your information, among the many other things I've done in my
life has been operating a large scale VAR which installed several
thousand systems in the Chicago area.
Never have I run into this problem on any machine other than the
Amiga.
So? What's your point? I've spent a heck of a lot more time tracking
down IRQ/com port conflicts while installing modems on PC's than I
have ever spent installing ANYTHING on the Amiga. And I know what I'm
doing on both platforms.
If you have no intention of learning the platform, than I would
suggest that you ask questions here, or at your Amiga Dealer (should
you be fortunate enough to be able to have/find one) prior to doing
anything. There is no question that IDE on the Amiga stinks… and
no question at al, that it was a mistake on the part of CBM (foisted
upon us by an ex-IBM exec)… but knowledegable users and dealers are
aware of the problems and limitiations, and seeking out advice from
them is your best bet, not trial and error on the part of the user.
Well said.
The reason for the 'no cold boot' problem is actually a drive bug,
as is the MaxTransfer setting you had to do.
The IDE interface has a published specification. Commodore designed
the interface on the A1200/A4000 to meet those specifications, and
then later found that quite a number of drives didn't meet the specs,
but only did what was necessary to work in a IBM/MSDOS clone system.
All IBM clones take a rather long time to do thier internal tests
after powerup, during which time the hard drive has a chance to spin
up to speed. (this initial 'post' test usually takes somewhere in the
order of 15 seconds or more to complete) The Amiga on the other hand
is usually trying to query the drive within 3 seconds of powerup. Now
the drive should be responding by this time, but quite a number
actually don't. This is the reason for the 'no cold boot'.
The MaxTransfer problem you ran into is caused by something rather
similar. The IDE spec allows for transfers of between 1-256 sectors
of data with one request. All standard IBM/MSDOS systems only do 1
sector transfers at a time, whereas the Amiga attempts to transfer as
large a chunk as possible in a single request. Doing large requests
can and does dramaticly increase the maximum data transfer rate the
system can support. Unfortunatly, since most IDE drives are used on
clone systems, only a few drives actually support the specification
correctly, most drives mess up on the 256 sector transfer requirement
and do undefined things when asked to do so. The MaxTransfer setting
in HDToolBox adjusts for the bug in the drive that never shows up in
a clone system.
A excellent explaination of the situation Jerry has encountered!
"The Amiga on the other hand is usually trying to query the drive
within 3 seconds of powerup. Now the drive should be responding by
this time, but quite a number actually don't."
I recognize what you are trying to say, but with all due respect, I
can't agree.
I've never seen or heard of a medium- to large-capacity hard drive
that is going to spin-up and be ready within 3 seconds of power-up.
My Gig-plus SCSI drives on the Macintosh sure don't.
The excuse that Commodore designed their controller to the IDE spec
and that the drives are responsible falls flat on its face – unless
you think it's good practice to simply design something to a spec and
not test it against real world devices and situations.
As I understand it, the "1eff00" is Decimal 255, at least another
posting around here states such. I haven't checked it. But if that's
the case, then the Amiga engineers failed again as did their manual
writers in not explaining the situation in greater detail in the
manual so users wouldn't be scratching their heads in befuddlement.
Your explanation, while I recognize it as being well-intentioned,
simply further convinces me that the Amiga is poorly engineered.
(And, no, it isn't the only poorly designed machine in the world.)
You are right that a drive does not necessarily have to be ready
to function within 3 seconds, but it _should_ at least be able to
respond with a "I'm not ready yet, but I'm working on it". That is
the "spec", and that is the way that well-designed drives work.
Of course, as Dean pointed out, in the world of IDE drives, we're
not usually talking well-designed, just designed to support the only
significant market that uses IDE drives. Unfortunately, Commodore
made a serious mistake in choosing to use the IDE technology in the
first place, and you are unfortunately among those paying the price.
"Unfortunately, Commodore made a serious mistake in choosing to use
the IDE technology in the first place, and you are unfortunately
among those paying the price."
Yep.
And the fact that they didn't test it in the real world doesn't
help. For me, it's a matter of inconvenience. For Commodore, it's
just adding one more "user" to the list who would never think of
suggesting that anyone ever considering purchasing an Amiga except
for use with the Video Toaster.
This is ridiculous. A spec is a spec. If a drive is not built to spec,
and it fails, when treated according to the spec, just whose fault is
it? You claim they "didn't test it in the real world", but it's
fairly obvious that they did test it. They just didn't happen to test
withg drives that failed. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that
all drives that call themselves 'IDE' will conform to the IDE spec,
poorly written as it is, in at least the major ways.
The PC(lone) world is rampant with the triumph of perseverance and
kludge over bad design, but one would think that it would not extend
to an actual 'standard' expressed as a specification.
"A spec is a spec."
Sorry, Larry, but in the real world of computers, a spec is not a
spec. Whether it's IDE, RS-232 or SCSI, lots of manufacturers
deviate and that's a known, not just an occasional occurence.
The proof of the pudding, of course, is Commodore's own reputed list
of "recommended" drives which lists, I am told, all of four
mechanisms.
Well, the most notable deviants from RS232 and SCSI happen to be
those 'designed' to run on IBM PC(lones). Virtually EVERY other
platform that uses SCSI is a breeze to install SCSI on compared to
trying to do the same on a clone. Seems that ignoring specs goes with
the territory, so it isn't surprising that they get written FOR the
machine with a similar lack of caring about whether or not it is ever
followed. Sorry, but you've really hit one of my 'hot buttons' with
this one.
woah! If C= designs their system to actually use the specification
and the drive manufacturers fail to meet the drive specification,
it's C='s fault when it doesn't work? Huh?!!! The comprable
situation is where a manufacturer of computers follows the RS-232
specification and you complain that your modem, which deviates from
the specification, does not.
Who is to blame here? The computer manufacturer or the modem
manufacturer? In my book, it's the modem manufacturer's fault for
not following the specification. Apparently this is not the case in
your book.
Whether or not real world testing occured, the plain fact of the
matter is that certain drive manufacturers did not follow the
specification. I've been bit by this as well, as my IDE is
completely incompatible with any board except the one I have
installed. I suggest you look at the real source of the problem, the
drive manufacturer, rather than C=.
Please note that I didn't say the drive should be ready to
transfer data by this time, only that it should respond to a bus
request. All the drive needs to do is to respond to a unit ready
check with a 'I'm busy, check me again later' response. The failing
drives simply act as if they aren't even there, which the Amiga
accepts and continues on. With that, the system won't cold boot off
of the affected drive.
The '1fe00' is actually 255 sectors x 512 bytes/sector. I don't
know how much you know about the development/production process, but
I can tell you that the manuals are usually completed at _least_ a
month prior to the product being ready to ship in order to allow time
for printing. And yes, engineers do design to the spec, without
specifications the chances of anything working are slim to none.
The only generic solution to the problems you experienced is to
make the machine wait for 30 seconds additional on a powerup
regardless of the configuration, and to reduce overall performance
from 1+Mbyte/sec transfer rates to 100K/sec on all systems regardless
of what the hardware might be capable of. I'm sorry, but that is a
solution that I and quite a number of other Amiga users would not
find palatable.
The ideal solution is to give control to the user and allow them to
adjust to meet their own situation.
The MaxTransfer value to operate with the incomplete IDE spec is
exactly the user control you request. I will admit that the
documentation could be better.
The 'no cold boot' problem is more difficult to resolve. Now that
the problem is known, steps can be taken to resolve the problem in
the future.
As for allowing the user to adjust to their situation, the Amiga
is probably the most configurable system being sold today. In fact
that configurability is quite close to being the most difficult thing
for the Amiga developer to contend with.
Ah, Dean, you are missing the point.
I would simply love a nice 30 second boot up that checks the memory of
my system byte and byte and beep and such. I live for that kind of
treatment, espeically when something fails in this 'system test' the
result is a nice lockup.
In order to be 'good' you must go with the collective feeling of
'good'. Isn't that right Comrad?
Jerry's argument is ridiculous. His analysis is weak. Instead of
trying to understand the why, he is busy looking down from the
throne.
Perhaps the responses to Jerry is the balance I have sought after in
another thread. 🙂
"Jerry's argument is ridiculous. His analysis is weak."
With all due respect, Mark, I would point out that you are an Amiga
dealer who feels that any negative comments about the machine weakens
your position in the marketplace. That is what I picked up from your
postings in another thread, isn't it?
I've limited my remarks to the machine, not the personalities here.
I would strongly suggest you do the same.
You may not agree with my opinion, but that doesn't render my
argument – or me – "ridiculous". You may disagree with my "analysis"
of the situation, but that doesn't make my analysis "weak".
Spare me the ad hominems.
Jerry, I did not say you were ridiculous, I said your argument was.
It is by the way. You have taken it upon yourself to come into this
forum and and blast Commodore for what you think the machines
inequities are, without knowing anything about the machine.
It is clear to me that your analysis of what Commodore is doing right
or wrong is weak. Do you still take that personally? And what of
that IRQ hell I spoke of? 🙂
If you don't mind, I'm not going to engage in a discussion with you
on this issue. You've made your views known that people should
refrain from publicly stating any negative about the Amiga because it
"hurts" Commodore and not quite so coincidentally you as a dealer.
You're entitled, of course, to disagree with me, but please don't
label my views as "ridiculous". There are many ways to express
disagreement without being disparaging of the person.
I'll throw in my .02 here. I think the main point most of these folks
are trying to say (or are saying in not so many words) is that you
shouldn't jump into a forum and put down the very machine the forum
is for. If you're having problems with an Amiga, this is the place to
ask for help. It's NOT the place to put down a perfectly good
machine just because you're having trouble. If I went to a Mac or PC
forum, and started puting down those respective machines because I
couldn't get one to work properly would be stupid, and the same goes
here.
I have an Amiga 3000 that has onboard SCSI, and is EASY to hook
additional drives to, so I can't tell you how to fix the problem that
you're having other than to perhaps suggest forgetting the builtin
IDE interface in your machine, and getting an A4091 (or other SCSI
adapter), and getting a SCSI drive for your Amiga. If you do go SCSI
one of the things it'll do for you is speedup your machine. The Amiga
is a fully multitasking machine, although with the IDE interface it
has to stop multitasking for each disk access, and that slows down
the machine, SCSI can fully multitask, so the machine can run at full
speed all the time.
I don't think you'll find many people even here that will argue with
you that the Amiga implementation of IDE is horrible, SCSI is really
the way to go! (Imagine what a Mac would be like with an IDE drive!)
"I don't think you'll find many people even here that will argue with
you that the Amiga implementation of IDE is horrible"
That was my only point. Yes, it does reflect on Commodore and on the
Amiga as a whole. But, no, I don't think I'm out of line for
complaining about the situation.
In any event, some kind, knowledgable folks here identified the
problem for me as a Commodore and suggested that a new motherboard
will resolve it.
That's good enough for me.
Jerry:
The IDE interfaces on the A4000 & A1200 are generally regarded as a BIG
mistake. While I can't say anything about what was said in the closed
developer areas on BIX, I can tell you that when the machines came out
that the number of messages regarding IDE flooded the system! 🙂
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike,
I disagree with you. Jerry has every right to point out things he sees
as wrong with the Amiga. I've read this thread as it's unfolded and I'd have
to side with Jerry on this one. I don't believe he's biased, he's stated his
background and experience (which includes quite a bit of Amiga experience) and
has stated his problem and resolution in what I think is a reasonable manner.
This is not the Amiga Evangelists Forum…it's the Amiga Users Forum,
Jerry is a user and has every right to express his satisfaction or
dissatisfaction with the machine…just as everyone else has that same right.
Don
I completely agree that Jerry's opinions about this are useful and a
good addition to the forum. When I installed a second IDE drive in
an A4000, it did not go smoothly for me. Of course, I tried doing it
without the benefit of the manual the first time. Then I opened the
manual. Then I had to call someone smart to confirm what I'd done
wrong. Then it worked. Actually, in this case, the "smart person"
was NewTek tech support, I called just like any regular customer
would. I completely understand what he went through…
.. but running into a forum, posting a message that both asks for help
and ridicules the machine in question and all its users as rabid
fanatics: Well, he got what he deserved. Or, more diplomatically,
people treated him the same way he'd treated them. Somehow, I've
always thought that "treat people as they treat you" to be more
fitting than the Golden Rule.
Thank you.
But let me correct one thing you stated. I have some Amiga
experience dating back to the first model of the machine, not a lot.
But I do have fifteen years in the industry, many of them as a
high-volume VAR or OEM and covering all the micro platforms from the
early Alpha Micro machines onward.
Perhaps folks named Jerry just weren't meant to use Amigas? 🙂
Until the A4000, SCSI was the defacto standard on the Amiga and I
have never had a problem with any SCSI drive. Also, the A4000 IDE
problems have been ironed out now, so if you have a good dealer like
mine, he will swap out the MB for you.
"Also, the A4000 IDE problems have been ironed out now, so if you have
a good dealer like mine, he will swap out the MB for you."
Jonathan:
This is an important bit of information. Can you please provide
further detail as to what problems have been ironed out?
Jerry
There were early problems with the Buster and coproccessor board
among other things. My dealer has been real good about making the
upgrades to my machine.
Thanks, Jonathan!
If you have any more specifics, I would appreciate them.
Jerry
Hi there,
I'm not sure as to your exact problem, or if indeed I can be of any
help at all. I'm not to good with Amiga HDs. The thought just crossed
my mine of an article I read recently (here in the UK) about a fellow
trying to fit a Conner CP30544 IDE HD to his A4000. It didn't work at
all, unlike, using the same on a IBM based machine. He found out,
after a call to Conner that what he indeed wanted was a special
high-speed IDE controller to use the drive. It may help your cause in
the "make this thing work" field.
Charles
* Thirsk – North Yorkshire – United Kingdom *
Thanks, Charles!
I got it working.
One of my bottom line complaints is that if Commodore has a list of
"recommended" and "not recommended" drives, they ought to publish it
so people can be aware of potential problems BEFORE they lay their
money on the counter for hard drives, which are often not returnable
to the vendor.
I find it difficult to believe that any current model IDE drive won't
just slap into any current model machine – but the Amiga, according
to its worshippers is "superior", so I must just be unappreciative of
this sophisticated nuance. <G>
I see you got it working Jerry, and I agree C= could do better in
alot of departments, one been the list you state. Quite why C= act
the way they do is beyond me also and someone should be doing things
better if it wants to keep its customers. This is even more important
with the seemingly massive computer war that has developed over
recent years.
I'm not one for hardware knowledge or infact PC clone hardware, but I
don't think the Amiga is the only one with problems. The situation
you had is just one part. I seem to recall the PC clone is plagued
rather badly with hardware that has a bitch of a hardware/software
compability <sp?> problem, which the Amiga doesn't have to the same
extent. Now I know your feelings over the "worshippers" point of
view, but it must be said the people you refer are in no way much
different than yourself, we all need to "think" we have the
"computer", as we spend so much on the damn things and it's a p*sser
when new "faster", "fancy" hardware keeps coming out far faster than
we can upgrade and more so swap platforms. I myself would like a new
fancy PC, but I know to get it to work as I would like requires alot
more money than a new 32-bit Amiga (1200). My only hope is that
software developers are at this very minute working on a super cool
flight sim etc. I can only wait. In the mean time it *is* nice to
hear what my computer can and cannot do with regard say, the PC.
Anyway I ramble on :-). All computer makes have good and bad points.
C= have poor customer service and software development (productivity)
at present.
On the IDE bit. There is a reason for this "some will, some won't
work", but I forget what it was. With all the media coverage of late
about the new Amigas I seem to have lost that snippet of info.
And for the record Jerry, my computer is *far* better than yours,
because I spent *my* hard earned money on it! 🙂 As John Lennon
would say "their all f***ing chips to me".
P.S. "FontBank" – Do you sell fonts comm. or otherwise?
[ MORE ]
"Quite why C= act the way they do is beyond me also and someone should
be doing things better if it wants to keep its customers."
Maybe they don't like their customers? <G>
Please bear in mind that I am not saying one platform or operating
system is better than another. There are days when I curse all of
them equally.
It's just that the Amiga seems to have more quirks than others –
its incompatibility with 99.999% of all IDE drives being a rather
significant one. (I say 99.999% because I was told that only 4
drives are "recommended" by Commodore. That leaves out a kind of huge
number.)
Coupled with Commodore's almost complete lack of technical support
leaves me with a pretty poor impression of the Amiga.
My comparison to PC's was limited specifcally to installing IDE
drives. It's a pretty basic operation that doesn't cause problems
under most circumstances. Installing other components, of course,
can be a major hassle.
Jerry,
try again. To be incompatible with 99.999% of all drives with 4
drives being certified as compatible would assume that the available
number of drives, i.e. the population, is 400,000 drives. No where
will you find that population. I could believe 99%, not 99.999%
As for quirks, all platforms have them, some more than others. You
are citing one quirk for the Amiga, to wit IDE drives, while other
platforms have them by the score squared. Get back to factual
comparisons, please.
Actually, the whole problem is that the Amiga is "superior" in this
instance. The Amiga system comes up quicker than the primitive PCs
do, and the primitive IDE drives aren't ready yet. Of course, it was
CBM who made the decision to put the IDE drives in the Amiga 4000s,
but they're sorry now. REALLY sorry. And they promise not to do it
again. <G>
And BTW, at least we don't have to worry about our mouse driver
software revision. <GG>
"Of course, it was CBM who made the decision to put the IDE drives in
the Amiga 4000s, but they're sorry now."
So am I. <G>
Exactly. IDE is definitely not an upward step from SCSI.
BTW, this is to remind you that I still need Coolsville.
-larry
"Exactly. IDE is definitely not an upward step from SCSI."
Hehehehe . . . it's not exactly a milestone on the path of human
progress either. <G>
I'm going to have someone upload to Coolsville to you tomorrow. What
format do you need?
Coolsville .. DOS PostScript, please.
Consider it *almost* done. <G>
Also, don't forget that it was an ex-IBM engineer working for C= that
pushed the idea of IDE on the Amiga motherboard. <g> Same guy who
designed the chicklet keyboard for them. (another great idea…NOT!)
IDE was not a great IDEa for Amiga.
hehe… yeah, I forgot about that.
At least we won't be seeing any more CBM computers with the silly things.
//
-Karl \X/ Amiga and Autopilot: The *only* way to fly!
I know you answered my earlier message about my maxtor hd problem.
As for IDE…I think its not a very appropriate controller for the
Amiga for such reasons as the amigas multi tasking ect. SCSI is the
only way to go and I've always been happy with the way my systems
have operated. The only problems I've every encountered are with the
HD's themselves. I'm using one Maxtor 340 mb 15ms SCSI-2 drive in my
3k with not problems and fairly good transfer rates and the other one
in my 2k using a 2091 controller. This also seems to be working
fine. 2091 Controllers are very cheap at the moment and I would
suggest trying to trade your IDE drives for SCSI-2 drives. I only
paid $366.00 for both drives.
I do know if your HD does not boot up fast enough the Amiga will
poll the SCSI bus and miss that hd. Thats why your not getting your
cold boot.
This used to happen with my old trusty 80 meg Seagate drive. I
believe the 2091 controller has a jumper to delay the SCIS bus
polling.
Thanks, Michael.
I would think, though, that if Commodore knows they have a problem with
spin-up (which they obviously do since they mention it in the manual), that
they would provide some mechanism for addressing the problem – which they most
certainly don't.
Jerry
Jerry,
OK I took the plung and opened my closet door and dug out my 29091
manual. On page 71 there are instructions for setting a Jumper (5)
that will allow longer Time-out Length. If your using a SCSI device
that takes longer then thirty seconds to start up when you tern the
system on…such as some Seagate drives then you need to set this
jumper. Now I'm not sure if there is such a jumper on a 3000 or
4000. (Maybe somebody can jump in here with info). Not sure if any
of this will help you unless you decide to go SCSI. take care….
Michael:
Thanks for looking. Now having that jumper is a good idea.
Gosh, if someone would show me where such a jumper exists on the A4000, I
might actually gain some respect for the Amiga. <G>
But the reality of the situation is more like Commodore doesn't support its
own products and, far as I can tell, I can't even buy a service manual for the
darned thing.
Not the way to demonstrate the "sophistication" of the Amiga, in my humble
opinion.
At least I got the things running and that's an improvement, although it
would be nice to be able to launch them from a cold-boot.
I'm going to try SCSI MOUNTER later today. Maybe that will work.
Jerry
Jerry,
if you are really interested in a service manual, rather than
bitching that one does not exist, please look at any GrapeVine ad in
AmigaWorld. They have service manuals for all of the current line of
Amigas as well as manuals for older, pre-Amiga, machines.
Thanks, Brian, for the tip regarding service manuals.
I had assumed that since Commodore itself had none to offer, no one would.
I'll check out those ads.
Jerry
The Amiga is so much faster than MACs and IBM's that it tries to boot
before the drive is ready. HD manufacturers have created drives
unable to keep up with the Amiga's fast boot sequence. Perhaps we
should ask Commodore to slow down our Amiga's ??? I think not, just
buy a HD that keeps up!
"I think not, just buy a HD that keeps up!"
Is the glass half empty? Or half full? <G>
C'mon, Jonathan, I recognize that some people will attempt to find
virtue in anything, but Amiga's ever-so-secret list of "recommended"
drives has all of four devices on it and none larger than 120Meg (or
at least so I'm told).
Don't you think the Commodore folks deserve at least a slap on the
wrist for not making this knowledge more widely available? Or for not
having tested more drives? Or not included a mechanism for those who
choose to purchase drives larger than 120Meg?
Incidentally, I think you raised the issue of CE Software having
authored some or all of NOW Utilities.
Ain't so, according to Sue Nail, their Director of Public Relations.
Sue confirmed that they did license CEToolbox to them and that's it.
They had no involvement whatsoever in the actual product.
Sue invites you to call her if you care to discuss the issue
further.
I agree with you on one thing. CBM should have released the 'tested
and approved' list of IDE drives. I know of plenty of IDE drives
that work great with the A4000. Some high capacity drives include
the new high speed Toshiba drives, the IBM and HP small form factor
IDE drives. Some of these are way in excess of 120MB. If you
followed the usenet threads, the Maxtor drives may have problems
because they are way out of spec for spinning up to speed. Anyway,
the simple solution is to slow down your Amiga. Something I would
not be willing to do, most IBMers don't care or don't know. I also
use MAC and Windows software (I actually develop software for those
platforms) but use the Amiga to do it. Much easier to monitor all
of the pointers and globals of my MAC software by having it run as a
task on my true multitasking Amiga.
"CBM should have released the 'tested and
approved' list of IDE drives."
Yup.
"I know of plenty of IDE drives that work
great with the A4000."
It sure would have been handy if that list had been posted! <G>
Jerry
JS >> Seems the Amiga is finicky about what kind of IDE HD you hook up to
it. I can put any drive into my Intel or Mac PC's and those silly
machines just let you do it – but not the ever-so-sophisticated and
packed-with-great-features Amiga.<<
Good point. The reason the Amiga has problems with some IDE drives, is
that the IDE interfaces in the A4000/1200 expect IDE drives, NOT IDE
subsets. Some of the IDE drives on the market don't uses the FULL IDE
standard, but a common sub-set that works with most IBM/clone interfaces.
One of the missing features of these IDE drives is the "MultiRead". The
IBM/clones don't care about the extra interrupts, the Amigas do.
—
JS >>No ability to cold boot from the HD, of course, because that doesn't
seem to be an Amiga feature.<<
Gee, I've been cold booting from a Seagate in an A1200 for about a month
now. The Amiga has a default path for booting. It checks for devices
during powerup, then boots from the one with the highest "boot priority".
A normal default may be:
– CC0: (PCMCIA on A600/1200, if card is set to boot),
– RAD: (Recovable rAm-Disk, if present and set to boot)
– DF0: floppy disk in drive #0
– HD0: Harddrive if present and marked bootable
There could be more devices on boot-up with boot status and higher
bootpri. The Amiga gives controllers & interfaces so long to report their
existance, and what device are connected to them. If a controller doesn't
detect a drive, it assumes one isn't connected. The system then selects
the available boot device with the highest priority.
If a HD takes too long to initialize and answer its controller (or
interface) from a power-up, then its controller will assume the HD was
dis-abled or not connected, and will skip reporting it to the system
(verses waiting forever.)
If your HD won't boot from a cold-boot, but will boot for warm-boot, then
most likely the HD takes too long to readily & report itself from a
complete power down.
As for your HD problem, I'm not sure about the A4000's interface, but some
controllers can be set to wait longer for HD to report. Also, you could
try powering the HD's separately and powering them up first.
—
JS >> (According to this source, there are precisely four drives
"recommended" by Commodore, none larger than 120Meg. – and the list is not
public.)
My dealer told me what drives were CBM compatable, and a list of drives
came with my CBM HD installer kit for my A1200, and also go a list of
several user tested drives off of USENET.
—
JS >>The NewTek folks gave me a new string to insert in the "MaxTransfer"
box under advanced options. […] It didn't work. And the Amiga manual,
[…] MaxTransfer: "Displays the hex number that determines the maximum
number of bytes to moved during each DMA transfer". Why that explains
everything!<<
Ok, MaxTransfer depends on the HD itself. Hard drives have a
built-in cache for buffering data to & from the drive. The Amiga is
aware of this cache. The MaxTransfer rate setting, tells the Amiga
the maximum amount of data the can attempt to send the HD with
causing overflow problems.
The cache can be different sizes for different drives. Most 3.5 inch
drives have a 256K cache, but large drives may have caches of 512K or
more. Many of the 2.5 inch IDE drive have only a 64K or 128K cache.
CBM's HD installer software defaults to a MaxTransfer rate of 256K
(displayed in HEX), smaller sized caches will cause problems if the
MaxTransfer isn't reset to 64K or 128K.
Thanks for all the info, Ron.
But I think it's the Amiga that's "primitive" – and they know it.
The spin-up problem is mentioned in the A4000 manual so they know it
exists. If the Amiga is so "sophisticated" that it can boot faster
than the installed drives, they should have been "sophisticated"
enough to provide an adjustment mechanism.
I can't comment on the Amiga's implementation of the IDE protocol
because Commodore hasn't provided a lick of information on their
implementation in their manual. Another nice "sophisticated" touch.
Even the cheap Asian IDE controllers provide you that data.
Seagate 120Meg drives cold-boot just fine. The larger capacity
Seagate 3390's and the Maxtor 540's won't. I don't think it's a
matter of priority, but I'll check that again.
I think you're very fortunate to have had a dealer who gave you the
information on which drives were "recommended". I, of course, being a
boor think Commodore should make the information publicly available
in its manual. But obviously such thoughts are probably too
unsophisticated for Commodore to entertain. <G>
Overall, I don't think – as some do – that the Amiga is the "best
kept secret" in the computer universe. In fact, I think it's
obscurity is well-earned.
I was in contact with my dealer today, not only do they have a new
Motherboard waiting for me, they are aware of the cold boot prob and
are going to replace the master IDE drive under warranty for me. This
new attitude from my dealer is downright amazing, I love it..
Like a lot of other people I wish C= would have stayed with the SCSI
controller on the MB like it was in the 3000…
Thanks for the info, Eddie.
I'm going to check into the new motherboard situation – and I agree with you
on the overall desirability of the SCSI controller.
Jerry
I'll tell you what–your solution is rather simple. You take over
this PC Lantastic network I am supporting in my free time (complete
with IRQ hell) and I'll handle your hard disk problems? How does
that sound? By the way, have you ever tried to call some of the PC
manufacturers that are out there? ive me a break Jerry.
" You take over this PC Lantastic network I am supporting"
Mark:
Just what does this have to do with the difficulties I encountered installing
an IDE drive?
Jerry
It doesn't have anything to do with your IDE problems. It does have
something to do with your claim that the PC systems are of a better
design. I have a working model of PCs in a business that are not
superior, but rather just barely getting along. Every upgrade is a
disaster. Every new hardware addition is hell. Adding a hard disk
to the Amiga is easy–if you know what you are doing.
"Adding a hard disk to the Amiga is easy–if you know what you are doing."
Mark:
The implication that I don't know what I'm doing is called an "ad
hominem" argument. It is a personal attack rather than a discussion
of the issues. Most people resort to ad hominems when they can't
refute the issue or seek to divert attention away from them.
You've openly acknowleged that you are an Amiga dealer who feels
public negative statements about the machine hurt Commodore and, not
coincidentally, your income.
Before you cast aspersions at the qualifications of other people in
terms of whether or not they know what they are doing, you'd best
check out the facts. I suspect that my experience with computers is
far more extensive than yours – and, believe me, I know what I'm
doing.
Please refrain from the ad hominem attacks.
Ah, stuffing words in, munch.. munch.. 🙂
If you knew what you were doing "on the Amiga" you would have not had the
problems you had. My guess is that you opened the machine, and installed
the drive. After all–it couldn't possibly be different? Could it? Yep,
it sure is. Surprise!
So what? Does that give you the license to come in here and trash the
Amiga as if you had some greater understanding of the what is 'right' and
what is 'superior'?
I pointed out to you that the PC is no joy to deal with at all when it
comes to installing the hardware. I also note that many of the 'clone'
PCs do not have telephone support either. You ignore those facts and post
on and on.
I don't mind you asking for help, but it bothers me greatly when you speak
about things you don't obvisouly know about, and put down the machine as
you have in prior postings. Saying that the Amiga without the toaster is
useless will not be taken lightly around here I am afraid.
You would be any relation to Jerry Pournell of Byte fame would you?
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Mark:
What a cartload of nonsense you spout.
In the Amiga manual, absolutely nothing is said to alert the user that any
consideration whatsoever should be given prior to purchasing or installing an
IDE drive.
You're a big-shot Amiga dealer: go find me a reference in the Amiga manuals
that urges caution in purchasing or installing an Amiga drive.
I encounter difficulty, voice my frustration here and you essentially say I
don't know what I'm doing.
Well, if that's the case, then how come Commodore has allegedly revised the
motherboard to rectify the problem you claim doesn't exist?
This kind of double-talk, no doubt, plays a large part in your public
lamentations about the difficulties you face as an Amiga dealer.
Denial of reality is not a valid sales technique.
Jerry
Actually, my Amiga has a seal on it that says it'll void the warranty
if I open it and install anything. The manual says to take it to an
authorized dealer for "stuff". That's pretty clear. Was that not the
case with your Amiga?
Having finally been able to stop laughing, I can now address your
remarks.
"Actually, my Amiga has a seal on it that says it'll void the warranty
if I open it and install anything. The manual says to take it to an
authorized dealer for "stuff". That's pretty clear. Was that not the
case with your Amiga?"
Gee, Ben, I've never noticed.
Is that the newest rationalization for Commodore's screwed-up IDE
controller? That a dealer installing the drive will make it all
better?
Ben, it's been pretty well confirmed that the problem I'm
encountering is a result of a flawed IDE controller design used by
Commodore. Allegedly they have corrected the problem on the
motherboard, something which I am trying to confirm.
Why continue to try and protect the machine at this point? Do you
have such difficulty accepting the fact that the Amiga is not
perfect?
I wasn't rationalizing, protecting, or anything else. I was pointing
out that my Amiga has a sticker that basically says that the dealer
is to make mods, updates and changes or the warranty is void. This
says (to me) that Commodore didn't want me in there. I went in
anyway, personally, becuse I know what I'm doing. You can do, or
think what you want – but you drew your own conclusions from what was
_only_ an informative post.
I'm not sure of what the issue is here.
Am I qualified to install a drive? Having done so on several
hundred occasions, I'd say so.
Do my qualifications or lack thereof have anything to do with the
defective IDE controller on the A4000? No. It's a design defect which
Commodore has allegedly rectified in an updated motherboard.
So what's the point here?
Jerry,
Like a poor marksman — you keep missing your target.
I am not referring to the boot up problem, but rather the fun you had
in the installation of your IDE drive.
User's Guide – A4000
Page 3
"WARNING. INSTALLATION INFORMATION IN THIS DOCUMENT IS FOR REFERENCE
ONLY. ALL INSTALLATION OF INTERNAL OPTIONAL DEVICES OR EQUIPMENT
INCLUDING THIRD-PARTY OPTIONAL DEVICES OR EQUIPMENT, SHOULD BE
PERFORMED BY A EXPERIENCED AND KNOWLEDGEABLE TECHNICIAN. ALL
SERVICING OR UPGRADING OF ORIGINAL OR OPTIONAL DEVICES OR EQUIPMENT
SHOULD BE PERFORMED BY AN EXPERIENCED AND KNOWLEDGEABLE TECHNICIAN.
UNATHORIZED INSTALLATION, SERVICING OR UPGRADING _MAY_ VOID YOUR
WARRANTIES.
— I realize you consider yourself knowledgeable. But what
experience have you had in working with Commodore hardware? Do you
have the dealer tech-notes on the hardware? Do you know enough about
the operating system to know when you have a software problem vs. a
hardware problem?
We both know the answer to this don't we? Of course we do. The
answer is a plain flat NO, you don't have a clue. You have installed
hard drives in PCs. Big deal. That doesn't 'qualify' you
necessarily to be able to do it on another platform. Commodore
provides documentaiton to the dealers in order to assist them in the
installation or upgrading of products.
Yep, there is a problem with _some_ A4000 motherboards with cold boot.
We check each of our systems _before_ we ship them in order to avoid
this problem. Not all A4000s have this trouble–mine doesn't. I
wonder–did you mail order your A4000?
Jerry, once again, I think it is fine for you to ask questions here.
However, I will not tolerate you coming in here and trashing the
Amiga just because you don't understand, or don't have a dealer to
help you understand.
If you ask me, you're part of the problem. Did you ever see the game
Lemmings? Ya know.. the game where the beasts follow one another
happily over the cliff? You go on 'believing' that the PC is better
some how. I'll just keep playing that Lemmings music for ya!
Wink-wonk..Wink-wonk…
By the way.. you keep making refrences to my dealership and my ability to
sell, etc. I do consider that fascinating. Did you happen to pick up a
copy of Computer Pictures this month? You might also check with
Commodore. You will find that I am also a registered Commodore developer.
Just thought I would let you know, a sales droid I am not.
You might be surprised what this 'hot shot' Amiga dealer is doing.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
Mark:
I've never seen anyone go so far off the deep end in attempting to defend a
computer against criticism.
Face the truth, Mark: the IDE controller in the Amiga 4000 is defective and
that's why Commodore is reputed to have corrected it by a motherboard upgrade.
Your statement that you "will not tolerate [me] coming in here and trashing
the Amiga just because you don't understand" is pretentious and laughable.
Almost as laughable as your recent demands that people stop posting all
negative remarks about Commodore.
Mark, all you're doing is making yourself look foolish.
I asked my question and got my answer (from people who frankly seem to be in
far better contact with reality than you) and that's all I really wanted.
Now why don't you just let the matter drop? You'd do yourself a lot less
damage that way.
Jerry
Jerry,
To your reply to Mark "all you're doing is making yourself look foolish."
I think not.
I've made some pretty stupid statements to you on the line of the "Amiga
Priest" it still was only in response to the general attitude of your
messages. Yes, I know you've had some legit 'blems. Yes, I only have an
Amiga in my home. Yes, I only use the tools which are appropriate at work
(which are not Amigas in my line of work, nope, no Toasters there).
I still think that you are not getting the point. You have a vast array of
experience out here to tap into, as you have seen (not from me!), so just
ponder doing as another has suggested in a reply to you (don't recall
who)…if you need help ask. If you want to scream and yell your
frustrations, try posting another message with that tone. Don't try to put
the two together. No matter what you're talking about, Amigas, PCs,
Toasters, MACs, gardening, SPAM(!@#$), don't you see that the two don't
mix to gracefully?
Robb
just a thought…
Robb:
What's the problem here?
Twice I've had reason to complain about the Amiga, both times it has involved
the inability to cold-boot from newly installed IDE drives.
The first time around, no one had a real answer. The second time
around, it turns out that I'm not the only one to have been
complaining and that, indeed, Commodore has reputedly revised the
motherboard to rectify the IDE problem.
Okay, I consider that evidence of slipshod engineering. I also
think Commodore's lack of direct technical support is also less than
desirable.
In short, I don't have a high impression of Commodore or the Amiga.
Why do you feel that opinions such as mine are out of place?
Jerry
Jerry,
frankly, that you have gone of the deep end is how it appears to
me. You've posted many a question that had simple answers that
anyone that had read, and comprehended, the manual would have
understood. As well as following on-screen instructions. When the
explanation was provided, you have repeatedly ridiculed the operating
system of the machine for performing in the particular manner that it
uses. This is curious, given the long history that the particular
operating system of this machine has, drawn from the minicomputer and
mainframe world (re: BCPL and B). You have also criticized C= for
following the IDE standard, to the letter. Again curious. Given the
penchant of a certain set of peripherals in two particular
communities (who shall remain nameless) for violating standards left
and right, it shouldn't be suprising that you expect such to be a
normal state of affairs.
I guess standards are not an issue with you, nor is rationality.
The debate here on standards tend to run more into whether C= is
violating their own user interface standards by highlighting a
pointer from the wrong direction, rather than whether I can really
use this tape drive on my machine. Curious that you blame C= rather
than your own experience. To date you have ignored every one of the
posts I have had to you correcting factual errors distortions. Fine.
Ignore this one as well. I've just set your user ID as a Killed ID,
so I will not see any reply.
I'm just sorry I pressed Steve to add GIF support to allow me to
access your service. I shan't from now on, as I won't put myself in
the position of financially supporting your ludicrous positions.
"I won't put myself in the position of financially supporting your ludicrous
positions"
That's fine, Brian, since I haven't reached your level of sophistication yet
in attempting to "punish" people for holding opinions different than mine.
The facts are these and they are hardly ludicrous:
1. On two separate occasions, I have attempted to install IDE drives in the
Amiga 4000.
2. On neither occasion, would said newly installed drives cold-boot.
3. It turns out that the Amiga's IDE controller is flawed and that Commodore
has allegedly corrected the problem in the motherboard.
Just where are you coming from attempting to convert what is clearly a
Commodore design flaw into an error of some kind on my part?
Jerry
Brian,
Humm….if you're going to argue with someone…at least be
factual…BCPL and B are not operating systems any more than C is. They are
programming languages.
Don
Brian, even though CBM did follow the IDE standards, and as much as I
try to respect them for that, I still try to look at things from the
typical user's point of view. They don't care whether or not someone
broke the rules, or in this case followed them. All they expect is
when the computer is first turned on that it starts booting from the
hard drive. And I'm not just talking about the Amiga, but any
platform. Now when they find that they have to do a warm boot to
bring it up do you think they are going to really care that CBM
followed the standards? Nope, not hardly. They (CBM) should have
tested the 4000 with a few more IDE drives, and provided a way to
extend the time before the controller starts it's polling. Limiting
the 4000 to very few IDE drives on an approved list just doesn't seem
like a very good solution.
// John – (Flying via AutoPilot)
\X/
Jerry,
You are quite a humorous fellow.. really. 🙂
I am not in touch with reality? Yeah right.
I think I have made my point.
-mark=
Otto Pilot Engaged..
"I think I have made my point."
You sure did – you "will not permit any negative" comments or
information about Commodore or the Amiga no matter how true they are.
That's some point to make.
Interestingly enough, Mark, you never once volunteered a solution to
the problem except to blame it on a "defective user" – which simply
doesn't wash.
Mark,
>>I also note that many of the 'clone' PCs do not have telephone
support either.<<
The Amiga is _not_ a clone. And most 'clone' distributers out there
(GATEWAY, ZEOS, USA FLEX, etc, etc) offer 24 hour tech telephone support.
Have you tried to call DTK? How about Samsung? I did not say the
Amiga was a clone, but neither is every PC purchased an IBM, GATEWAY,
Zeos, etc.