New Amiga program needs?
147 messages in this thread
Since I am in the process of becoming an Amiga Authorized software
developer I'm curious what sort of programs you'd call "main stream" or in
other words, what programs would you like to see being built for the Amiga?
Whaping it from Wyoming
Marc Speth
Marc,
You did not direct your question to me, but as one of the few who does
use thier amiga for non video business (I don't even own DPaint!) I can
tell you what `main stream' type packages I could use. 1st and foremost a
GOOD spreadsheat that is easy to use and bug free. Some good
accounting/tax program ie Quicken, Pacouli ect. I would also like to see
more PIM packages, I have not seen anything for the amiga that is really
useful (for me) in this area. Oh yea and a laptop amiga 3000!
..Steve
Whap!ping from beautiful coastal South Carolina
Thanks for the feedback. All suggestions are gratefully accepted.
I'm leaning toward building a Works style program (with WP, DB, SS) that is
aimed squarely at the home market. I've been using my Amiga for almost five
months already and have yet to find a Works style combination that is worth
beans. If the SS is good, then the WP sucks, or some other combination. I
want to take ideas that I've carried over from my Apple II days and add to
them the abilities of the Amiga to make a Works type program that is truly
usable for the home computer user.
If that takes hold then we'll try expanding it into a more business
oriented package. But you have to start somewhere.
Does anyone else out there have recommendations for software ideas that we
can pursue?
Whaping it from Wyoming
Marc Speth
I don't have a recommendation for a software TYPE, as most of the ones I
would want are already out there. I would suggest that your Works package
use IBM file formats, not just file export-import routines. (Or at least
be able to READ IBM file formats – I know that Ami-izing a package often
means adding features that an IBM just can't handle). This woukd be
extremely convenient for those of us who use both machines. (By IB file
formats I mean .WK1 and .WKS, .DBF, etc.)
I agree with including IBM file formats. I write a lot, and must convert
my WP 5.1 to older versions to use at home, and then lose any graphic
images I may have had at the work version! I would love something that
could read newer lotus and WP format files.
Mark:
The reason that 'integrated' packages aren't more available for the Amiga
is because they do not sell well on this platform, precisely for the
reasons you stated: "…If the SS is good, then the WP sucks, or some
other combination." The whole point of having a multitasking environment
is that with AREXX support in the application, you can choose the programs
that YOU like, and make them fully integrated, as well as multi-tasking.
I haven't seen anything for dos machines yet that compares to having
ImageMaster, MetaScan, excellence!, and PageStream all running at the same
time!
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
True, having several 'power' programs like that available at the same is
indeed nice. But most beginning Amiga users don't have the money to invest
big bucks into programs of that caliber. And programs of that sort have
features that 90% of the home computer users would never use anyway.
IF (and I put heavy emphasis on the IF) we build a Works type program it
will be aimed squarely at the home market. That means it will not have
power features like having the WP generate an Index for you. Home users
don't need things like that. For 90% of home users all they want to be able
to do is type a letter to mom, or create a basic recipe file (not even with
the help of a database). They just need good solid features like Cut, Copy,
Paste, and Move, and they want to be able to change fonts so they can put a
title to their latest attempt at a short story. Or they need bold or italic
type to emphasize a word or two. this is the market that I feel has been
ignored so far.
The market already has packages like Excellence that is a good, fairly
heavy duty, word processor. But Excellence also sports a price tag that is
too high for most home computer users to justify just to be able to write a
letter to mom. That's where the program I want to write will come in. It
won't have the heavy duty features that Excellence has, but it also won't
have the heavy duty price tag either.
I'm sure that I'll get lots of flak because it won't do the things that a
professional writer would need, and it won't be well suited for office type
work. It will be aimed at the HOME market, and as such will be designed to
do 98% of the kinds of things that people do with a computer at HOME (NOT
in a Home Office).
Once I have THAT product solid, then I will go on to add the power features
it will need to carry it into the office/business market.
My greatest motivation here is that when I bought my Amiga I spent 95% of
my money just getting the computer, and was very disapointed to find that
even what the Amiga market calls 'basic' software was well out of the
[ MORE ]
Marc,
I must take exception to your statement that home users don't need
automatic index generation in their word processor. I use this a lot –
when I do my homework for my studies in Portuguese. I bet I'm not the only
person who is still involved in the educational system and wishes to keep
their notes/essays on their Amiga – and wishes to do a good job of it.
If you leave out a whole load of facilities in order to keep the price
down, how will your product be any better than any other? At the extreme,
if the user wants a cheap WP, he/she will look at PD sources first and
only. Yes, I've known people who refused to spend $20 on commercial
software, saying that it was too expensive, and wanted to get a better
product for free.
What happens to your profit margin if you sell a rock-bottom product at
rock-bottom prices? How could you possibly stay in business? How are you
even going to get into the market, competing against other companies who
have been in it for years, and which sell products which already cover the
bottom end of the market pretty well?
To be blunt, if _I_ wanted to write a letter to mom, I would use pen and
paper. If I wanted to create a collection of recipes, I would use scissors
and a folder to put the cuttings in. If I need to emphasise a word or two,
I just write bigger and more heavily – or use a marker pen.
No, I use a computer because I want to be able to use the facilities that I
can only have with a computer running decent software. Or else I just want
to play games all day long ('borrowed' from my friends), and never even
think of going out and buying 'serious' software.
I wish I could be less pessimistic about all this, but I have a nasty
feeling that you could easily end up with less than nothing for your
trouble if you don't think _very_ carefully about your plans.
Regards,
Shraddhan – via Whap! from Hertfordshire in the UK
Very good, Shraddhan!! I have need for indexes and tables of contents
often, and WordPerfect is the only word processor for the Amiga that gives
me that ability. Even the footnoting ability of most programs is very
weak. We really need a powerful word processor for people who have need
for these features.
Betty
Betty:
Just out of curiosity, do you have excellence!?
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
No, Michael. Just WordPerfect. I was having enough problems with the
bugs in WP when Excellence came out – and I was sick of programs with ! in
their name, and all the reports on Excellence at that time reported even
more bugs – and far less suppport – than WPerfect had. So I stuck with
what I'd already paid my money for.
Betty
Betty:
In addition to Word Perfect, MSS's "excellence!" has Index and TOC
generation. I use it myself. I agree that it is a much needed and often
neglected feature.
Wayne
I don't know Excellence, although hear a lot of good things.
Does it have outlining too? I've started to use that in WordPerfect, and
it's very useful indeed.
Mike (from the UK)
Mike:
Unfortunately, "excellence!" doesn't have outlining, at least not in the
version 2.0 that I have. I just sent in my upgrade form for 3.0! I'll let
you know if they've added such a feature.
Wayne
AmigaTeX, Betty – it has _everything_ and it makes WP look like a toy.
It's got a bit of a learning curve – but it wouldn't faze you for a
second, I do believe. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
A coupleof weeks ago a program appeared here in the AmigaUser forum that
was supposed to be a front end for TeX. Have you had a chance to look at
it. It may be just what the public needs to get some real power in the
word processing dept.
-Chas
No – But I will; I didn't know about it. Thanks for the pointer.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
After looking at the frontend I mentioned, it is designed to work with one
(German origin) version of TeX. I do not know if it will work with
AmigaTeX.
(Be warned as it is over 600k of download. 🙂
-Chas
Personally, I still believe that AmigaTeX is a difficult environment to get
to know … it's certainly not a Word Processor but a DTP program.
When you get up the learning curve, it seems very powerful indeed but, the
little I have used it I find the interface gets in the way of the
creativity.
Of course, that's a very personal view .. and not meant to be a put-down of
AmigaTeX but, even as a programmer, I decided some time ago I really didn't
want to climb yet another learning curve to get something I really already
had.
Mike (from the UK)
Ben,
I've thought about AmigaTeX. The late and greatly lamented Dick Barnes
was forever after me to try it. But I've also heard about the learning
curve! Maybe one of these days. There was a 'front end' for AmigaTeX on
one of the last ten or fifteen Fish disks that was supposed to make it
almost as easy as a word processor. Maybe I'll give that a try.
Betty
Shraddhan:
Although I've been working with Marc on this "Works" project, I have to
agree with you. I think software of this type should offer a high level of
power (i.e. Index and TOC generation in the WP). I also don't think it
should be restricted to "home" use. If this project goes forward with me
as the programmer, Marc and I will have to come to terms on this point (are
you reading this, Marc?). I will NOT be responsible for developing
powerless software for such a powerful machine! 🙂
Wayne
Wayne,
As far as such common software as word processors are concerned, I really
think you should be offering something new to your potential customer,
rather than more of the same.
While I was mowing the lawn last night, I started thinking more about my
message, and remembered that several years ago I came across a program
called an "ideas processor". I even ordered one (at great expense, I felt
at the time), but the supplier failed to deliver and cancelled my order, so
I never got to play with it. It was for the C64 I believe.
I think that one common problem that most users of WPs face at some time or
another is that of organising their thoughts. Yesterday at work, I spent
ages studying a draft document with a view to making it understandable to
people who have difficulty in reading, without making the document appear
to be patronising. What I wanted to do was to have the document on a WP so
that I could juggle it around, but without the bulk of all the words
getting in the way.
Reminds me of an editor I heard of for some programming language where you
can 'fold' chunks of code so as to hide the detail and make it easier to
see the overall scheme. As far as I'm aware, no WP can do this kind of
thing.
And why do WPs have the text all the same colour? How about the facility
to colour code sections of a document, to make it easier for the writer to
find related topics? This could also be used to make the various font
styles stand out.
I'm glad you agreed with my previous message. I thought afterwards that
maybe I'd been a bit over the top. I thought of you investing a lot of
time and money in digging out a little niche for yourselves at the bottom
of the software heap and hoping that it would not cave in on you before
you'd managed to get out of it.
Regards,
Shraddhan – via Whap! from Hertfordshire in the UK
Shraddhan:
Again, I agree with you. I'm not interested in developing "more of the
same". I think that's part of what's wrong with the Amiga market. I'm
ready to see new and unique applications for the Amiga that offer more
features and power than we've ever seen before. It's about time that our
software caught up with our hardware.
Since I don't have a lot of time or money to devote to programming
projects, I've only been able to do it as a hobby. If I were to tackle a
commercial or shareware project, I'd have to have a real clear idea of
where the Amiga community wanted it to go. Therefore, any and all input I
receive from other Amiga users is quite valuable to me.
As for Marc, he is brand-new to the Amiga. I don't think he's had enough
time to adapt to the very unique Amiga environment. We're just starting to
get serious about taking on a major project. He has a lot to learn about
the Amiga before things are a go. I'm sure he'll catch on quickly.
Wayne
Shraddhan,
You might want to give a good look at Flow by New Horizons. It is an
Idea Processor that works quite abit like you want. You can even directly
load the Flow document into Pro Write for final touchup.
Its rather difficult to describe what it is that Flow does, but basicly
it allows you to enter a heading and then place text below that heading. At
any time you can collapse the underlying text and only show the headings.
This can be done at multiple levels with any individual heading expanded to
any level independantly of all other headings. Now if any of that made
sense…. <grin>
Dean
DKB Software
If you left out a feature so "computerish" as Index building I'm afraid it
would be a failure. I bought my computer for power. I can write a letter
in a PD text editor like QED. I don't think you could come close to what
we have available for free right now.
Skip graphics and look at at Word Perfect 5.1's feature list to find out
what
will do well on this platform. Many typical home users have a 68040 and at
least 100 megs of harddrive space as well as a Toaster or such.
–Paul Still on AutoPilot
Paul:
I agree with you. I think the Amiga is long overdue for high-power
applications. There IS a lot of powerful Amiga software. There just needs
to be more of it. We could also use a larger variety of products.
IMHO, writing software that is limited to "home" or "beginner" use would be
a mistake considering the diversity of the Amiga market. I think we need
powerful software that is easy for beginners to use and learn. Such
products are challenging to design, but not impossible.
Wayne
>> Many typical home users have a 68040 and at least 100 megs of harddrive
space as well as a Toaster or such.
Wow, I have a lot of catching up to do to become "typical!" <g>
Nah, not really. The Amiga 4000 comes with a 68040 and will sell $949.
–Paul Still on AutoPilot
>>The Amiga 4000 comes with a 68040 and will sell $949.
Really?
Leslie,
I think he forgot a "NOT!" there. 😉
ROTFL! (I missed that price the first pass I was scanning so fast. That is
the best laugh I have had for awhile.)
Now my own contribution to the rumor mill. NOTE: This is in NO WAY inside
developer information. I hear from leetle mice that the A4000 is buyable
today in Germany for a price equivalent to ABOUT $2100 US. I have been
given a precis' if feature list to go along with it. A 68040 is one stellar
feature mentioned. Um, an 040 machine for $949 would sincerely surprise me.
I am withholding further feature list comments based on A2000 Germany vs
A2000 (B2000) US history.
(Latest word indicates it may also be available in Australia.)
{@_@}
Joanne,
!!!!! $2100 US for the 4000? Where can I send my check!
Rich
I was being a leetle bit sarcastic with the typical user set-up and price
of the new A4000 🙂
Paul is sorry
–Paul Still on AutoPilot
It would be great if an 040 Amiga was under $1000. I'd pick one up pretty
fast! (The Atari Falcon 030 is supposed to be WAY under $1000)
Leslie:
Don't feel bad! You're not the only one with a lot of catching up to do. I
have no accelerator, no graphics card (except CBM's Display Enhancer), and
only 80 megs of hard drive space. At least I have 2.0! 🙂
Wayne
I don't own an accelerator either. As much as I'd like one I put memory
and storage as my main focus. The only graphics board I own is a Ham-E
which was probably my best investment. (I picked up 2.04 the first day it
was released too! <g>)
Paul –
>"Many typical home users have a 68040 and at least 100 megs of
harddrive
space as well as a Toaster or such."
I didn't see a smilely face after that statement, but I can't really
believe that you were serious.
You have got to be kidding, though. It's more like "Many home users have
one disk drive and only a meg of memory.
"Be readin' ya"
(c) Roy Pahnke – 1985 🙂
🙂
Six months ago I thought I was unique in having a Toaster, 3 big
harddrives, 68040, syquest, 36 megs of RAM, BridgeBoard, DCTV.
I felt embarassed at Amiga dealers and user's groups. As soon as I said
what I was using, I was instantly alienated after being asked if I'm "a
lawyer or something 🙁
I'm just an elevator mechanic that makes his family eat bread and water
only (I steal the grocery budget)… well not really 🙂
In the last six months I have met 7 Amigaoids who have a similar set-up as
mine but with $15,000 of video gear and/or midi stuff in addition. I'm
seeing some incredible set-ups and they are all for fun only. No
commercial work at all, just editing home movies or having fun with tunes
and stuff. Between us all we own maybe 4 games. The last two guys I saw a
while back that had a Amiga 500 with one disk drive have both quit using
the machine and bought PC Clones. This may all just be a statiscal blip, I
don't now what is changing.
I went back to the Amiga dealer to ask him what his customers were like.
The store was empty and closed for good.
So… was I kidding? Yeah, I guess. But there's an awful lot of full blown
systems being put together all of a sudden.
–Paul Still on AutoPilot
Paul:
Well, my system is an A3000 with PP&S 040 card, several drives, and
several other 'high end' peripherals (no toaster), and I too use my system
strickly for fun. I have a couple of times actually made money with my
Amiga, but that's not it main purpose in life. I have a friend that I
orignally met in my local Amiga dealers store, and he too has a full blown
system (other than the fact that mine is a 3000, and his a 2000 they're
really VERY similiar setups), and he too only uses his system for fun. I
think that there are probably more higher end Amigas that are used more
for personal enjoyment than most people think.
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
If I can join in this thread then I have an A3000 with 6mb and the 100mb
hdisk. But I havn'y played any games for months. Most of the time I'm
running Superbase Pro 4, ProPage 3 and for letters etc etc I use Cygnused
and AmigaTeX. All for the business ( I own an hotel).
Several of our local club members use their rigs solely for business whilst
the younger ones <22 tend to bash around on the games.
P'raps its different in the UK
– via Whap!
> Different in the UK?
Well, I currently run an A1500 (= A2000) with only 3M RAM and a 240M hard
disk, and as soon as I can afford it, I'll be buying an accelerator. On
the desk behind me, I have an A500 with 42M hard disk and total of 4.5M
RAM.
The system is used mostly for 'serious' fun. I use it for working at home
when I have database-based work to do, or DTP work. Oh, yes I have a BJ330
wide-carriage bubble jet printer. And an amplifier with a pair of
loudspeakers. (The audio output of my monitor became erratic, and it was
cheaper to buy the amplifier than to have the monitor repaired.) Also got
a 24 pin printer on the floor under the desk – no room for it anywhere
else.
I _do_ play games. Last night I spent some time racing on Microprose Grand
Prix. Last Wednesday afternoon I played Lemmings at work (A500 with 3M
RAM, no hard disk) for half an hour.
The most common comment I have heard about the Amiga is "It's got good
graphics", followed by "the SEGA is great, have you got one?" So the
expectation seems to be that the Amiga is for games only, and I feel
slightly embarassed when I tell people that I don't have time to play games
on mine as I'm using it for other things.
On the other hand, when a computer engineer called some months back, he
said he was really impressed.
Regards,
Shraddhan – via Whap! from Hertfordshire in the UK
Paul –
I guess, maybe the old saying is true "Like objects attract"
You're just hangin around with an elite group of Amiga owners. But your
system does sound nice. Wish I was you neighbor 🙂
"Be readin' ya"
(c) Roy Pahnke – 1985 🙂
[ continuation ]
reach of my wallet. I want to save other new Amiga buyers from the same
experience. My fondest dream would be to make my Works program both
functional enough and solid enough (no bugs) that C= would consider
bundling it with all their Amiga 500 and 600 machines so that new Amiga
buyers could start using their computers straight out of the box.
So that is where I'm coming from, and where I hope I'm headed with this
project. That was why I asked several messages back "what Main Stream
software would you like to see developed for the Amiga?" Although video
productin and animation are fun and exciting they are still Vertical
Markets. That is, they are very specialized, and until the Amiga can expand
beyond these markets it will never gain the widespread acceptance that the
IBM and Mac have enjoyed. I want to build a program that can be useful to
ALL Amiga users. That will help the Amiga be perceived (sp?) as a computer
that EVERYONE can use, not just a selected few that dabble in the arts.
Whaping it from Wyoming
Marc Speth
I am coming into the middle of this, so I must have missed something. It
seems to me that with TurboText, FinalCopy, and ProWrite—we have MANY
fine HOME level word processors for things like letters and short stories.
Unless you plan to be MUCH cheaper.
I think there is some sort of document format that WORD uses internally.
You can get the standard from them. If your program had the option to save
in that format so that files created with it could be loaded into WORD (and
vice versa—not reading WORD format but the RTF or whatever oit is called
that WORD can also save) then we would have something nice, because we
could work at home and then bring the files into something that DID have
the "power" features if needed.
Marc –
Continuing on my first message to you in this thread and to what you
have added to it.
There are lower end programs for the home user and first time users.
There are also PD programs that work quite well for the truely budget
minded. And C= has already adopted a few of these. (ie. KindWords)
Also keep in mind that much of C='s sales these days are not to
FirstTime, home users (Those folks are buying MSdos systems). Amiga sales
are coming from the more specific markets – Video, DeskTop Publishing, and
other VAR setups. C= is even backing away from marketing to home users and
instead concentrating their efforts towards the narrow market niche's
(Sp?).
If I were you – I concentrate my efforts towards developing products for
the established Amiga user. The advice given earlier about Business
applications was good advice. A good Accounting program is really needed.
Think about all those Amiga's already out there – they already have WP's,
and they are being used by experienced users in specific applications and
what none of them have is a good accounting program. Even a good Home
accounting program – aka "Phazar".
In short I would consider the established user base first (well over 3
million) before thinking about the new user base.
"Be readin' ya"
(c) Roy Pahnke – 1985 🙂
I'm assuming you don't think well of MSS Platinum Works, which is an
integrated product that would seem aimed at home users. >>>> Ron Legro /
Milwaukee via WHAP!
"Wherever you go, there you are!"
Ron:
Actually, I really can't say. I already owned all of the MSS modules
(Scribble!, Analyze!, Organize!, and Online!. I pretty much abandoned
Scribble! for excellence! and PageStream, and dumped Organize! for
SuperBase 4. Online! and Analyze! however, I have kept upgraded to their
current versions and use both, particularly Analyze!, on a regular basis.
I think that MSS did a nice job with Platninum Works. It certainly offers
some value for the money (about $99 mail-order), although none of the
modules are what you might call 'state-of-the-art'. Scribble! and Online!
are easily bested by PD and/or shareware products that cost less.
In fact, if I were starting my software collection from scratch as a new
user, and I were smart enough to have a CIS account, there is little doubt
that I would use the files available here in the AmigaForum(s) to help me
decide what types of software and features I really needed. The only
exceptions I can think of are in the areas of image processing (ala
ImageMaster and AdPro) and DTP (ala PageStream and ProPage).
If what Marc really wnats to do is write a top notch integrated
productivity pack program that will retail for around $50, I sincerely
wish him the best. I'm just not sure that a couple of disks worth of
PD/Shareware programs don't currently fill that need where the Amiga is
concerned. I'm not a developer or programmer, and Marc obviously has more
insight in to what it will take to develop such a package. I hope that he
can afford to do it.
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
A guy in California named Geoffrey Williams has done what you suggest,
apparently. He advertises a set of disks that contain shareware and PD
programs. However, they are value-added in some way. He says he has tested
them all to make sure they work together well, then done some additional
setup or programming to make them more seamless. Don't know if you could
call them integrated, though. They tend to be more utility and system
related, rather than applications …. things like blankers and mouse
accelerators. I don't have the info here (I'm on the road) but I recall
there was a set of disk for WB 2.04, maybe aalso a set for 1.3. It's a
start. I'm thinking of getting the set. He wants 50 or 75 bucks for a
handful of disks, but says it's all you'll ever need to supercharge your
system.
$50 to $75 for a collection of PD disks? That's sounds high, but I'd hate
to be critical until I saw the package. I'm not a big fan of Geoffrey
Williams. If you do get the disk set, how about uploading any info you can
as well as a review?
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
Mike –
>" If what Marc really wnats to do is write a top notch integrated
productivity pack program that will retail for around $50, I sincerely wish
him the best."
I agree with ya. But I don't think Marc can do anything for that price.
And I still don't think an intergrated package is needed.
Your $99 price for Platninum is todays prices – I do believe it was
priced much higher when it first came out. And I think they did a terrible
job with that package. All they really did was take 4 products they
already had on the market and intergrate them. With very few improvement
in any of the indiviual packages.
"Be readin' ya"
(c) Roy Pahnke – 1985 🙂
Marc,
You may not know that in past years (on CIS) when someone has talked about
developing a "Works"-styled program, others have suggested that such a
program wasn't necessary in a multitasking machine, where you can run
different programs from different vendors however they best suit your
needs. Of course, clipboard support being what it is, having a compatible
set of programs with a consistent interface may be worthwhile.
*** jd
And that is exactly what I hope top do. To create a set of modules (such as
WP,SS and DB – maybe Comm too) that all use the same interface in a
consistant and logical manner. In fact, if all goes as I hope, it will be
SO logical that there will be virtually no need for documentation (docs
WILL be included of course – but MY idea of a well designed program is one
that the user doesn't HAVE to read the docs just to get something basic
accomplished).
I have hopes of making the program so that all the modules tend to melt
together seamlessly and that seem, to the user, to have only one interface
for all the modules.
Such are dreams. Only time will tell if it can be done.
Whaping it from Wyoming
Marc Speth
Marc,
Your not reading everything in this thread. Your plan to write a
works program has been done. MSS has 'The Works Platinum out already.
Cost $99.00 or less. It has 5 programs a WP, SSHEET, Dbase, Comm term and
a Print sideways program. That $20.00 a program; or $25 if you don't want
the sideways printing. You can't do better then that with shareware. They
all talk to each other using the Clipboard so that you export to other
programs.
A point to keep in mind about down and dirty programs:
People in this tread have already bad mouthed The Works set as lacking.
They then site a more elaborate program as the replacement for the module
they dislike. We see the same thing in a thread about Notebook, a $25
package by Blackbelt that is a nice thing to have. Now people what more.
This is the way with all software. Auto CAD started out small, cheap and
adequate, but look at it now. If you use Arexx ports in a program, it is
expanded easily; and not only by you.
If you want to program and give the Amiga things she needs there
are still other type programs needed. Try the business world. We need a
Point of Sale program. We need a better accounting program. We need a
Forms Generator.<–(I would put a high priority on this one) A cheap light
pen reader. A laser font downloader. A fast sheet music printing program.
If people would get back on the topic you might have a large number of
program types that you could work on.
The big thing is that you have to get WB2.0 before starting your
project. If it isn't compatible your taking a step backward. What
language are you planning to write in? It's too bad you live way up in
JACKSON, WY. I'm down here in Casper and have similar ideas about filling
some of the software gaps. I have been following this hoping to get an
idea or two, but people are stingy with there needs.
-Tom
Tom,
How about a Fontographer Type 1 font generating program? Load Type 1,
Type 3 IBM or MAC format fonts, alter them, etc. Regenerate TrueType Type1,
Type3, PDfont, Illustrator, PDraw Clip, etc. formats. Load Fontographer,
and Font Studio formats (mac), and IBM draw formats. Download postscript
fonts not just to a printer's memory but to the printer's HARD DISK, there
is NOTHING like this for the Amiga.
Chris
Tom:
For a light pen reader, check out Inkwell Systems in San Diego.
And for Point of purchase, see RE-DEM.LHA in AmigaUser:
Complete working demo of Retail Escort. A database application for use
with Superbase Pro 4. Invoices, stock, ordering, sales are just the tip
of the iceberg with this product. Try it!
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
Michael,
A light pen reader was placed on the market a number of years ago
and Inkwell Systems may have been the people that did it. I don't remember.
At that time, what ever was released was shy in the software department for
reading all bar code formats and, and most importantly, cost "Your first
born". If this is the same people, do you know if they brought their prices
into line? If not, they could use some competition. Of course, some
hardware maybe involved with this path.
As for Retail Escort: I have seen something advertised using
Superbase, but no hands on. This may fill the bill. The main points of POP
that I have found lacking in the past were: Obtaining customer
information, easily. Lay-A-Way and Credit information and billing.
Automatic stock reorder. Auto Invoicing on Time Payments.
-Tom
Tom:
I'm not sure what you are asking when you talk about "…reading all bar
code formats …". A light pen is not a bar code scanning wand. Inkwell
Systems light pens are of the highest quality but I've no idea what the
present software support for them are on the Amiga. You may be thinking of
MegageM's scanning wands and software. Daniel Wolf, president of MegageM
is online here in the forum quite often, and as I recall, he even has some
summer specials being offered on his barcode scanning systems. You might
want to drop him a line.
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
Sorry Mike, I thought I was talking about a bar code reader.
-Tom
Tom:
If you really do want bar code scanning hardware and software, be sure to
look up Daniel Wolf. He's here quite often and his company MegageM has
lots of goodies in that area.
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
Tom:
A good forms processor would be nice! Great suggestion. Does Ami even
have one of these? I can't recall ever seeing one.
Marc and I have been working on the "Works" idea a little. I don't know if
we'll do it or not. I think the Amiga could stand to have a real nice
"Works" program. Platinum Works just plain sucks in my opinion. Marc's
little "pre-market test" here on CIS seems to have generated mixed results.
We'll see.
Casper isn't _that_ far away. It'd be fun to get together some time. Marc
and I are about the only two serious Amigoids in Jackson (except when Vic
Wagner comes to visit).
Wayne
You may want to try TopForm, it's a fair forms program. e
[A/exit
U.67505 Wayne,
>> "Platinum Works just plain sucks in my opinion." << You are not
the first to express yourself in this way. I use to defend it, but no
longer. It was some of the first serious programs out for Ami. They came
from the cpm world, but so did I. So, I never had any problems with them.
Enough said.
Does Ami have a forms generator? Yes, as Pete Garcia has said there
is TopForm. But he also say's "it's a fair forms program". He forgot to add
"to poor" after fair. I have talked with a few people in the business world
that has tried it. They think it sucks, has bad printer output.
>>"Casper isn't _that_ far away"<< I'm getting too old to sit in a
car/truck for five+ hours any more. Down here we do have a number of Amiga
owners, one programmer, and me. If you do make it down here give me a call.
There's only two of us in the phone book and I use Thomas (not tom).
In general I'd like to say that software written for the Amiga is
compared to the same category programs that are out for the IBM. And we
always fail.(most of the time) I think this is unfair because the Ami prog
is first generation and the beamer stuff is at lest on the fifth release. I
do hope you look at the beamer stuff to see all the bells and whistles that
should be included in anything you write. Also, If you write something that
no one has written before you may be on safer grounds. Please see mess
#67424. Chris has a number of good things that are needed. While your
original idea may sound good (cheap software), you may find a larger market
for these other type of things. It has been my experience that people that
just can afford a computer and then cry about software prices turn into the
pirates of silicon and don't buy anything, no matter the price.
-Tom (Not a real programmer, but I play one on TV)
Tom:
Thanks for your input. I'll look you up next time I'm in Casper. As for
cheap software, that wasn't my idea. It was Marc's. I don't really think
the Amiga needs more cheap commercial software. We already have great
shareware products that fill that need. In addition, your point on piracy
is _quite_ valid (unfortunately). I feel that the Amiga needs more medium
to high end software that is reasonably priced.
Wayne
And what would you consider as being reasonably priced for medium to high
end software? A group of us were sitting around talking at the coffee shop
about why the Amiga doesn't have more professional software and we all
agreed that the main reason is because Amiga software is priced too low. A
developer has a hard time making any money in the Amiga market creating
professional software, and that's why a lot of them have jumped on the IBM
bandwagon. Don't get me wrong, I like the fact that I can purchase software
for my Amiga for a lot less than I would for a Mac or PC, but for the high
end software I would bite the bullet and pay more for a product I really
needed. Of course along with that, I would expect better support from those
companies.
John – K7KB (via Whap!)
John,
I have to disagree with your coffee shop group, a developer charges
what he feels his software is worth and what he can get. Of Course, He
also makes sure he pays the bills and makes a profit. If a developer is
under charging for his stuff it's not the fault of the Amiga, Commodore, or
the people that use the machine. Take a look at games. No low prices
because it's on an Amiga, in fact some games cost more because they had to
port them to the Amiga.
No! On the Amiga or the Mac or a clone, professional people will
pay for professional software. SAS now costs $399. SuperBase Pro is
$300+. ProPage pushes $300. That's a long way from a 25-50 dollar home
program. If we Ami dudes wanted cheap, we'd-a-bought a clone and got our
software by trading and pirating like everybody I know does.
I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know your answer
is worth questioning.
-Tom
John:
I'd agree with your group's conclusions. What I meant by "reasonable"
pricing was pricing that reflects the level of power and usefulness of a
product. I didn't mean to imply "cheap". I think the Amiga needs a better
balance of software, especially medium to high-end. I also think that
people who demand high-power software should be willing to pay more for it.
If someone wants/needs cheap software, then I'd recommend that they check
out shareware products. There are lots of nice shareware applications that
fit the bill for someone on a limited budget. Those who need professional
level power and support should have to pay for it.
If Amiga users won't recognize the fact that developers need to be paid
well for their efforts, we'll lose more of them to the MS-DOS/Mac markets
and our machine will die. Developers who stick by the Amiga deserve our
support.
Wayne
I agree with Tom here!
Let's get off this intergrate package idea and start listing some other
software needs we have.
Tom's right -> A forms gernerator would be great.
How about some financial help! Stock/Broker program, Quicken type
program, an electronic bill payment program – like the one they have on the
other platforms.
"Be readin' ya"
(c) Roy Pahnke – 1985 🙂
be sure to check out STKANY.LZH in library 13 of AmigaUser:
An incredible stock/mutual fund/market indicators/ analysis
program. One of the best in a recent AmigaWorld comparative review.
And it's just $25.00 shareware! The manual alone is worth the price.
Whether you are a serious investor or just play the market on paper,
this is a must have. Great graphs, over 20 different measurement
criteria, built in automatic comm program for auto downloads of quotes.
Would be cheap at 6 times the price! Fully operational, not a
demo. 2.0/1.3 compatible
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
Thanks Mike –
I'll check it out. Although I don't play the market at all, but I've
got a friend who does, and he's got an Amiga too. 🙂
"Be readin' ya"
(c) Roy Pahnke – 1985 🙂
Did someone mention a forms package? I know that Designing Minds @ (801)
752-2500 has a forms maker package. I haven't used it so I couldn't vouche
for how good it is, but there ya go!
Wishing I was on Autopilot!!!!!
Matt
How about a program to double the capacity of your disks/hard drives and
still be able to run your programs, easily.
I was looking at what I have for my IBM compatible computer in the way of
programs and as far as I know – there is no type of program like Stacker or
SuperStore for the Amiga. Is there such a program??
I also wish there was a Quicken type program for the Amiga. I have used
Phasar for a couple of years but when I seen Quicken on the IBM and the
features it has…well…I switched.
Al
One issue that comes to mind with the Disk doublers is that the performance
hit (without hardware) will be much more noticable than on the PC. With
the Amiga SCSI transfer rates measuring in the 1Meg per second range, the
software compression algorithms really eat into the time. BUT, this
doesn't mean that it isn't a good thing… I have given the idea serious
consideration at a number of times. If you have the right information, it
may turn out to not be that difficult to implement…
John,
Didn't really think that there would be "much" of a penalty in speed. I
know with a slow IBM 80286, 16mhz computer using Stacker – you don't see a
noticeable speed reduction. With more and more Amiga users using and
indeed upgrading to faster 680XX chips I would think that a "Disk Doubling"
program would be beneficial, even if there was a slight performance loss.
Certainly would be a unique, one of a kind program for the Amiga.
John,
There is also the issue of software that modifies the stored copy.
Programs such as Whap! that modify the on-disk copy of the program after it
becomes registered. Or programs that modify configuration files rather
than rewriting a whole new configuration file. For example, the old
shareware version of Procomm on MS-DOS machines used to keep a counter in
it's parameter file and would update it every time you ran the program.
The counter was used on startup to determine if a "credits" screen should
be displayed.
Don
Don,
Commenting on what you are saying…
Ok then I understand what you are saying about programs that write or
modify files when run, but a proper compression program expands the file(s)
when needed by a program, to their original size. When the file(s) are
again written to disk they are compressed, automatically.
Again this is the way the PC's programs (Stacker, SuperStore) work.
Alan,
True, however, on the PC's most files are written purely sequentially.
This lets the compression scheme work. On the Amiga there is at least ONE
class of file which gets written sorta funny and it WILL affect the
compression and that is IFF files.
buffering, m'man, buffering. :^)
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Vic,
Oh, I didn't know that, about the way IFF files get written to disk, in
a funny sort of way. Hmmm…well…I suppose if the user is aware of the
difficulty of reading and writing files such as IFF files, then they could
save such files in an uncompressed area on their drive.
One of the features of such programs on the PC is the ability to create
an area on your harddrive that is not touched by the compression scheme, in
any size you want. With Stacker, it shows up as another harddrive
volume…such as drive D. In fact they recommend that if you have a
problem with certain files or programs then put them within the
uncompressed area.
Thanks for the comment! <g>
Don, this isn't a problem at all. The software driver 'logically' presents
the file to the system in the uncompressed form so that seeks and updates
work correctly.
John,
That would presume you could "fit" the compression software between
the filesystem and the hardware driver. Perhaps not an easy thing to do?
Don
That is actually not too difficult IF you understand the pieces of the
system. Unfortunately for many, they are not as well documented as people
would like for them to be.
Don
Also, what about programs that do `seeks' to a position within the file,
such as database software (like SuperBase) … this will presumably have
the same problem.
I've been considering something like Stacker for my notebook, but have
worried about this so won't compress these files.
Mike (UK .. but currently in Texas)
Michael,
I'm not an expert on MS-DOS machines, not even close…I *presume*
that the reason it's relatively easy on those machines to use compression
techniques is because I believe it's relatively easy to get to the BIOS
routines that actually do the read/writes and insert your
compression/decompression software (or hardware interface) there.
I could also be wrong too.
Don
Mike,
Just to comment…I also have a PC notebook. I do run Stacker and I
have the program Wordperfect Works, Quicken, among others. I have not had
one problem with the combination…at least not yet anyway. 🙂
If you are worried about certain files you have the ability to set aside
as much harddrive space as you need. In fact on my setup I have 1 Meg set
aside, uncompressed area. Just in case.
John,
Some types of compression are *extremely* fast, and they can recover a
significant percentage (20 or better) or your average binary file. On a
100 mb HD, thats 20 MB of goodies.
We've been looking at that, too.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
Ben,
wouldn't you have to have a custom version for all the various device
drivers out there, or would you do it by SetFunction'ing AmigaDOS?
Brian Bartlett
I believe that you could get it "between" just about everything, without
going to any type of hardware dependancies without too much difficulty. It
may become somewhat moot, the way ram usage has, because of increasing
storage availability.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
John, on the A3000 SCSI transfer rates under somewhat tweaked ROM code for
2.04 have gotten over 4 megabytes per second on at least one model of
Maxtor 1+ gigabyte drive. {@_-}
Checking the specs on the STAC code (I have the programming literature here
for another reason) they get 160KB/SEC decompression 60KB/Sec compression
on a 15Mhz 68000. Their hardware does 2MB/sec Compression 6MB/Sec
decompression. There certainly is a big difference in performance from the
high ends you can get from the drive.
BTW, it's good to see you here Joanne. I was starting to miss talking to
you.
Heeeelo!
Good to see you here! A more welcome face (well, wink?) is hard to
imagine.
–Ben
…via AutoPilot
>> I'm leaning toward building a Works style program…
Don't do that! Programs like Works make sense on single thread systems
like the Apple II, MS/DOS, etc. But if I can run multiple programs at
once, why should I run your ok word processor/spreadsheet/data base when I
can run a great word processor, great spreadsheet (if we had one), and
great database all together only when I need them all together. Instead,
invest your time in doing a really good spreadsheet. Cut and past to the
clipboard, so I can cut a column of numbers and paste them into Final Copy
or Excellance! Get an Arexx interface that really can work in two
directions. You can get the product out faster, and have it do the
intended job better. Programs that include everything the user might need
are generally big, slow, and buggy. Take a lesson from the UNIX pipes. A
small program that does it's job really well and can work with other small
programs (that haven't even been thought of yet). Commodore has supplied a
good base to build on, and Arexx supplies the glue to bind the programs
together.
Works only works, because I can't call up the spreadsheet I would rather
use while I have the word processor up. On the Amiga I can, and that is
what makes the Amiga a better system.
Bill Roberts in Ellettsville In. via Whap!
True, the Amiga IS better because of it's mutitasking abilities, but the
software you propose for people to use as separate, but ARexx-able,
programs would cost more than the machine in many cases.
Using separate (and more powerful) applications is fine if you're wealthy
and don't care how much it costs to get the job done. But if you haven't
noticed yet, there is a large group of computer buyers that are hard
pressed to come up with the cash for a basic computer system (like me – I
bought an A500 via mail order (best price) but didn't have the money for a
good monitor, so I'm using an old Apple II composite color monitor) and if
they don't have the funds for a better computer, how are they going to buy
these separate high priced software packages?
Since I have four kids and a wife to support I don't have much money to
plunk down on heavy duty software.
Let's take a look at a 'real world' situation here. As in my case, I could
barely afford to by my A500. I haven't even paid for my used monitor yet,
and still I need some basic (WP, SS, and DB) software to make my computer
even worth buying …. so I look in the pages of Amiga World and cruise
through the ads I see there.
Creative Amiga-
Computers Man
Final Copy $59.95 $59.00 MaxiPlan 4.0
$99.95 SuperBase Personal 2 $59.95 $94.00
MaxiPlan 2.0 $62.00
ARexx $31.00
These prices are taken directly from advertisements in the Amiga World
August '92 edition. Based on the claims stated those advertisements I
decide that the titles shown above are good basic packages that will do
what I want done without lots of wasted bells and whistles. So I decide to
go with Amiga-Man's offerings on Final Copy, and Maxi-Plan 2.0, and I'll
get SuperBase Personal 2 from Creative Computers, and of course I need
[ MORE ]
Marc:
I say "go for it!" The Amiga needs new software. And a Works type of
program would be great! It is true that people can use ProWrite, a good SS
and other software with Arexx. But together they cost big $$$$. If you
could sell your one integrated package at or less than a full blown WP that
has a simple WP, SS, COMM, etc. in it, it would sell and be well received.
People who are power hungry can pay the money like I did, but for the
person that bought the $300 A500, the Works type of program would be
perfect!
-Jonathan
Marc,
I wish you luck on your project. While I don't agree with your
suppositions, from an marketing/economic project, I'll be interested in
your product. Many of the products I'm using now no longer work under
AmigaDOS 2.0. If you can swing that, let me know, 'cause I'll line up
first for an integrated product. Take care!
Brian Bartlett
[ continuation ]
ARexx to be able to 'integrate' these as a usable system.
Final Copy $59.00
SuperBase 2 $59.95
MaxiPlan 2.0 $62.00
ARexx $31.00
———————–
Total $210.95 Shipping & Handling $10.00
———————-Grand Total $220.95
I don't know about you, but if _I_ don't have enough left to pay $70 for a
used color monitor, I sure as hell don't have $220.95 to get the BASIC
software that I need to make my computer useful! And I haven't even
verified if all these programs have ARexx ports yet! If they don't I'd
probably have to change to something MORE expensive that I also can't
afford to buy!
If all goes as I hope, I expect to be selling my home version of works for
around $99.00. HALF of what it would cost if bought as separate packages
with what is available on the market now. I want to make the Amiga become
as widely accepted (if not more so) as the IBM and Mac have become. And the
ONLY way that will happen is if EVERYONE, not just the rich, can get the
software that they NEED to make it work for them.
Whaping it from Wyoming
Marc Speth
Marc,
It seems like there are already plenty of good PD/Shareware/Freeware
items that cover all of what you want to do. Memacs will do just about all
you want your WP to do. Backtalk, which I've recently d/led, is a very
respectable Comms program which is freeware _and_ has an Arexx port. I
think I've seen Superbase Personal 2 for around $35. Just a few facts (if
I've blundered on any of my 'facts' please let me know <g>)…
-Sean
Marc,
I happen to like MEmacs quite well, but as a word processor, it's a
bust. A text editor, yes, but don't even consider it in the same league as
Textcraft (puking) or Final Copy.
BTW, I use MEmacs for all my Text Editting functions, so this isn't
biased 🙂
Brian Bartlett
Brian,
It seems like all you have to do is turn on the wordwrap and you're good
to go as far as writing home goes. Which is the criterion (the ability to
write home on) for Marc's WP to add to his collection. I wasn't really
trying to compare it to a real word processor.
-Sean
Your example of several programs costing more than one integrated program
is valid, but remember, integrated programs are usually weak in at least
one area. By weak, I mean that they do not have the features that a user
needs to use the program the way he wants. Now here is the rub. The weak
area from my point of view is not the same as the weak area from your point
of view. So I think Final Copy is great, you think it is trash, but Pro
Page is just what you need. The Amiga mult tasking lets me use the Word
Processor I want with the spreadsheet I want, and so on. I don't want to
discourage you about writing a combination program. But I would suggest
that you implement the pieces as seperatly runable programs, for two
reasons. First, they can be done much faster. Second, I may not be able
to spring for the full package, but just really need the spreadsheet and
the word processor. This is kind of what Micro Systems Software started
doing with Organize! (a not terribly exciting data base), Scribble! (a very
simple word processor), and Analyze! (still IMHO the best spreadsheet for
the Amiga). With a little thought, these could have acted almost like a
single package, but they have been passed with time.
Incidently, you are correct that software, like records or CD's for your
sterio, cost more than the hardware you run it on. I have over twice the
cost of my system in software, and that's not counting any of the games on
the system.
If you think the cost of software is bad on the Amiga, be happy you don't
own a PC or, even worse, a Mac.
Bill Roberts in Ellettsville In. via Whap!
I think this works program is a good idea! Cost is a major problem with
people that have just bought a new computer, not to mention a "works" style
program is VERY attractive to first time computer users!
The thing I would suggest is that your program supports the system
clipboard, not enough programs do, and it would let anyone who has your
program to add more powerful applications later and be able to cut and
paste between them.
AREXX would be valuable to you also in that it would give you a built in
scripting (macro) language that would make your program more powerful
without the need of writing a scripting language for yourself. Add ons
would be much easier also.
p.s. I know what you mean about the cost, I started out with my 500 and
(all used) a monochrome monitor, then a composite color monitor, then I
moved up to a 16 color CGA monitor (which is what I still have today!) The
rest of my 500 is "expanded" but I haven't been able to justify $340 for a
new monitor and haven't been able to find a used one yet!
Bob Comer – also from Wyoming – via Whap!
Bob:
I agree with both you and Marc. There are very good arguments for both
sides of this discussion. For the "power user", there is no better way to
get work done than with several powerful programs multitasking together.
Add ARexx and you are the envy of "power users" everywhere. This is the
way that I like to work.
On the other hand, Marc makes a valid point that there is no decent
productivity solution for the brand-new Amiga owner. Having worked in both
the MS-DOS and Mac markets, I've seen just how easy it is to sell a "Works"
package to first-time clients. I've also seen people buy systems on the
spot after seeing a "Works" demo. Why? Because they were able to
visualize the computer being demonstrated as a useful tool that will make
their everyday lives easier. I think Amiga dealers could actually sell
more systems if they had a "Works" that compared favorably to similar
MS-DOS and Mac products. I know I could. IMHO, the existing "Works"
packages for the Amiga do _not_ compare favorably to the likes offered by
Microsloth and others for the Windows and Mac environments.
A "Works" package isn't the end-all, beat-all productivity solution. It is
a solution for the beginner. Most people who start with a "Works" will
eventually graduate to more powerful software as his/her needs and wants
increase.
I think the Amiga market needs more development of both entry-level and
professional productivity software. I also think that it has needed it for
a long time!
Wayne
Wayne:
The only WORKS type program I have used on msdos machines is LotusWorks,
and I'd have to say that MSS Platinum Works compares quite favorably.
MS_WORKS/f/Windows costs about $135 mailorder. LotusWorks (DOS) runs at
about $115. MSS Platinum! Works sells for $99.
However, I honestly believe that people outgrow these types of programs
VERY quickly, and their money would be better spent on downloading demo's
of better software from commercial services like CIS.
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
Michael:
I own Platinum Works myself. I never did really like it. The spreadsheet
module was OK, and the communications module offered a lot of features.
However, the WP and DB look like throwbacks to the CP/M days with pull-down
menus tacked on. The best rating I could give the package is so-so.
I agree that people tend to outgrow these types of programs quickly. I
think the reason is lack of power. Existing "Works" packages are aimed at
beginners and have no room for growth. Once a beginner has learned all the
basics, they usually _crave_ more power.
The Amiga market is unique. We have some of the best PD/Shareware offered
on any platform. This is why I subscribe to the idea that commercial
products need to be powerful. This includes "Works" type packages. On the
other hand, I don't think we should forget about the beginner. Hence the
idea that all software, even the most powerful, should be easy to learn. I
know, "easier said than done".
Wayne
Bill: I agree. A smart developer would pick out three or four independent
packages he thinks are good. Maybe Quickwrite, Superbase Personal,
whatever. All the picks should have ARREXX. Then get a licensing agreement
to write a front end using ARREXX and maybe something like CanDO to
integrate the packages into an easy menuing system. Sell the whole shebang
bundled. The programming time would be greatly reduced. Of course,
manufacturers might not like to see their products bundled with the
competition. In which case, just sell the front end, and tell buyers to go
get the individual packages on their own. The one disadvantage to this,
which Marc Speth notes, is that the packages will not have a completely
uniform look and feel. But they will be powerful together, if the linkage
is done right. A real value-added service to those of us who don't have
time or the inclination to write our own ARREXX interfaces. >>>> Ron Legro
/ Milwaukee via WHAP!
"Wherever you go, there you are!"
Marc –
I think one of the reasons a Works type of program isn't available for
Amy, is that it really isn't needed as much on a MultiTasking computer.
I mean, I can take the best of all of the WP's DB's and SS's and use
them at once. I like Excellence! and use it as my WP of choice. If I need
an address I can load SuperBase and grap the needed address with Snap.
Same goes for SpreadSheeting. The only problem I see with this is that the
different software packages don't use the clipboard device to it's fullest.
But then that's where Snap comes in handy.
This subject has come up long ago in the Amy's software development
history. And the reason stated above was generally stated as to why no one
has really come out with such software.
"Be readin' ya"
(c) Roy Pahnke – 1985 🙂
on a multi-tasking system, works-type programs may be unnecessary.
i run a banyan network in a big company. the des~ktops are all intel and
mac (oh for banyan client software for the amiga)~ I use all the microsoft
stuff (word, excel, powerpoint) ~I am sorry to say th~at it doesn't matter
TOO much about the farce called multitasking in these systems. the
software does a lot of good stuff. … that's for work. for home, i would
like a works type product that i c~an afford (i don't make a lot of money)
I still use sculpt 3d because it had a good price. call me cheap, but i
f~igure $70 to maybe $110 (for a really good~ one)
.. you asked ~ charlie mccready
Marc–
I don't know how much you can do to fill my needs, as what I really meant
by "mainstream" was the ability to have the same programs or 100%
compatible programs (via conversion if necessary) on the Amiga as on my PC.
You know, the old reliables: a spreadsheet, a word processor, and a
database.
IMHO, those are the major products that keep the Amiga from being
mainstream:
1. No 1-2-3 compatible spreadsheet, but that's a huge project.
2. No WordPerfect 5.1, although, there are decent DTP and WP programs. I
don't know if any of them convert their files to WP5.1 or Word formats, but
that is a possibility for development. If I can say, "I can convert my
files to WP5.1 100% and vice versa", I have a better shot at getting it
into the workplace. BTW, nothing on the PC side does that (WordForWord
chokes on WP5.1 style statements).
3. No DBase compatible. However, SuperBase is a v/nice cross-systems
compatible database, so that's not a real requirement from my POV.
The Amiga has reasonable FAX support with GPFAX and ClickFAX.
Although this will probably require hardware, there is no _electronic
switchboard that everyone hates_ for the Amiga.
There are (as far as I know) no CASE tools (either upper or lower) for the
Amiga, but that's another major project.
As a mainframe (IBM 308x) programmer, I would like to have the ability to
download/upload files from/to the mainframe (IND$FILE RECEIVE/SEND support
is fine).
BobS
P.S. I will think about it some more this weekend and probably have more
to post later.
Robert:
Just wanted to let you know that one of the products that you mention is
now available for the Amiga. You said that there's no electronic
switchboard that everyone hates, and I'm assuming you're talking about
voice mail, well GVP has a new product out that is just that, plus FAX as
well. It's called their TalkPac VFX card, it's a ZorroII card that fits in
the Amiga. Supra is supposedly going to upgrade their SupraFAXModems to
handle voice mail in the near future as well, and I'd imagine they'd have
an Amiga program to handle this feature. (also in that upgrade is support
for CallerID)
// -Mike Schiller
\X/ AMIGA! On AutoPilot in sunny Fort Lauderdale
Mike:
I will have to take a better look at the software/hardware combinations
that are currently, or soon to be, available. Both products you mentioned
seem to have untapped cababilities. Approximately 4 years ago, I designed
a pilot PC system for the hospital where I work. It allowed any doctor's
office with a FAX to call a PC with a voice mail card and request patient
test results by Medical Record Number. The PC would then connect to the
mainframe and verify the MR#. If the number was good, it would connect to
the Lab computer, download the test results for the patient, and then FAX
them to the doctor's office. The pilot worked fairly well, considering
that the software was running as TSRs under DOS (we would get one or two
hangs per day). I wanted to try it with a multi-tasking OS or one that
supported multiple DOS partitions such as VM386, but the driving force left
due to "differences in management philosophies" and the project went on the
shelf. It was later decided that we did not have the staff to develop and
support PC software.
BTW, I should mention that the Project Manager of our LAB system presented
the idea at a user conference and now the vendors of the LAB system are
offering a similar product. Do you think that our management wants to buy
the product? One hint, these are the same people that were in charge four
years ago.
BobS
Dear Robert,
"2. No WordPerfect 5.1…"
I disagree.. this is not a major drawback. We have some good
wordprocessors. And to demand a specific brand in order for the Amiga's
success is unreasonable. It is more likely that with committment (not
unusual for the Amiga) and study and planning (unusual for the Amiga) we
will get something that outshines Wordperfect. Nor does Wordperfect rule
the PC spreadsheet market like it once did. People ARE open to
alternatives.
"3. No DBase compatible."
I agree that DBase compatability is a huge asset.. And we have it. Beyond
file compatability (which sveral Amiga db's have) there is dbMan 5 by
VersaSoft, which runs on _many_ platforms, runs dBase code and has been
steadily supported and improved upon ever since it came to the Amiga. It is
probably the most underrated Amiga software ever written. I have this
program on both Amiga and PC and it's great (and faaast).
You need an "AC GUIDE TO THE AMIGA"! 🙂
Dear Christopher:
Re my point 2 No WordPerfect 5.1 (or 6.0).
I know that there are some very good wordprocessors on the Amiga. And I
realize that WordPerfect is not the only WP program for the PC (I use
DeScribe for OS/2 myself). I was using it as a generic example of a
mainstream product. However, it is still the most widely used WP program
for the PC. I guess that we will have to agree to disagree on this point
<g>.
To digress a little, how good a product is has no relationship as to how it
is perceived. Where I work, the people I work for, and with, think that
Windows does multi-tasking (and that it's leading edge). With these
people, the main considerations are:
(1) Will it read my WP5.1, or Word, or AmiPro (pick your main-stream word
processor) files.
(2) Will it read (and process) my 1-2-3 spreadsheets.
(3) Will it read and process my dBase programs/files.
(4) God forbid, I won't have to learn anything new, will I?
Re my point 3 No DBase compatible.
I forgot about dbMan. Probably because I haven't used it. When I need
something with dBase compatibility I will probably buy it. Until then,
SuperBase gives me multi-platform support. Do you know if (dbMan 5)
supports the code for the latest version of dBase (4.whatever)?
I should apologize for not having a recent copy of "AC's Guide to the
Amiga".
Would you believe me if I said that my (non-existent) dog ate it? How
about my cat? What if I said that while I was on my way to "Software,
etc", I was kidnapped by the same space aliens that talked to Ross Perot?
BobS
P.S. Did you know that your first name gives Blue Cross, and the company
for which I work, fits. Both of those fine organizations feel that no one
has a first name of more than 10 characters.
I would only conceed that we need wordprocessors with Wordperfect file
import/export. I do not like Wordperfect itself, as it is user-hostile and
that is the last thing we need on the Amiga.
As for dbMan V, please remember it is a dbase product line in its own
right as are 99.9% of db titles for other machines. It does what I believe
many databases do.. And that is give you basic dBase III+ comptability
(data and code) plus a truckload of other features unique to that product
line. I don'y think dBase IV came close to being the trendsetter that dBase
III+ was. Multiplatform support for dBman consists of 100 platforms
"including Macintosh Sys. 7, Amiga UNIX and all major UNIX platform
vendors, 88-OPEN, SPARC, MIPS, Motorola, and INTEL. European and
2-byte-character Asian support is available."
Personally, I have gotten used to WordPerfect, but I'm not wedded to it. I
really need a good file conversion though. There's too much data at work
thats in WP5.1 format. I have tried Word for Word on the PC (it came with
DeScribe), but I use styles, which give the conversion severe problems.
Thanks for all the info about dbMan. It will be helpful to me when I need
a cross-system db.
BobS
I think your idea of a Word Perfect conversion-to-5.1 utility is
excellent! It would make a great stand alone program. I could even see it
as shareware with a demo that is keyed to convert only one specific file to
5.1 format.
Leslie:
I'm glad that you like my idea. If you create / sell such a product, I
would buy a copy. It _would_ be nice to see my name on the
acknowledgements page of the manual <g>.
WordPerfect even sells developers kits that describe how they construct
their files. I don't have the number with me that I used to purchase my
copy, but you might try (801) 225-5000. If I remember correctly, the price
was under $100.
BobS
My programming attempts in the past have been pretty laughable but I'm
considering giving it another stab. I'm sure there are other folks that
can do a much better job at a WP 5.1 converter.
My C programming efforts were/are sort of laughable too (compared to a lot
of the people on this forum), but the only way to get better is to keep
writing code. Any time I start to feel egotistical, I take a look at the
first COBOL program that I wrote in 1966 (I keep it for that reason).
I have been playing with C for about 4 years, but really haven't written
too much. About 20 small programs (100-200 lines) for a pilot system that
my company shelved and a few programs to convert files from one format to
another. Stuff like Fixed to Comma Separated Value and COBOL record layout
to BNF expressions for a CASE tool that I'm using.
Keep on trying with the programming. It'll keep your blood pressure from
getting too low <g>.
BobS
P.S. There is a program on the PC (Word For Word) that purports to be an
omni-converter. It does a lousy job with fonts, styles, and graphics. If
you have straight text with bold, italics, or underlines, it does quite
well.
Bob
Hmmmm … now that sounds like a good "beginner's project" for me. Maybe I
would have it convert from just a standard ASCII text file to WP5.1, and
vice-versa. But I would leave the DOS coversion process to other existing
programs.
Whaping it from Wyoming
Marc Speth
Go for it, Mark. I, personally, have no need for such a program but I
can certainly see it's value. If Word Perfect won't make 5.1 for the Amiga
it shouldn't be hard to whip up a converter to adjust ASCII files for use
on an IBM.
And Amigavision handles Dbase files, as does another product (can't think
of its name…DbMan?). >>>> Ron Legro / Milwaukee via WHAP!
"Wherever you go, there you are!"
Ron:
I think the DB in Platinum Works will import dBase data. I think it only
does dBaseIII. No code. Only data.
Wayne
Wayne… the other problem with the DB module in Platinum works is that it
is a flat file not a relational database (unless something has changed
since the last time I looked at it).
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
But very few people need relational or programmable databases. Overkill,
unless you're running a business or a big volunteer organization.
Proabaly true… but I found Organize! nearly worthless to me… it was
far to limited in it's sort capabilities, and being non-relational was the
killer.
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot
I think `relational' databases can be very useful for all sorts of
applications, even routine ones in the home … for instance, a record
collection with each album entered in one database, and each track listed
in another … linked via the record number, and making searches for
individual track titles very easy. Okay, it's a little overkill, but it is
very useful.
Of course, we're not really talking about truly relational databases here
but `linked' databases … but, even so, programs like SuperBase are _very_
powerful and, as you suggest, a little over-the-top for many applications.
Mike (from the UK)
Ron:
Agreed. Not everyone needs relational/programmable databases. However,
even a flat-file DB needs certain things to make it useful. The DB in
Platinum Works is lacking many key features. Its sorting and searching
functions are primitive. Good sorting and searching are basic needs of any
DB user.
Wayne
Michael:
Right! the Platinum Works DB is only flat file. Really flat! 🙂
Wayne
Christopher Laprise also informed me of dbMan, which I have not tried
personally. Chris also stated that it is compatible with the dBase
programming language and that it is cross-system compatible. I guess that
if you need a dBase clone, dbMan is the way to go.
BobS
The mainstream applications the Amiga needs is Spreadsheet & Accounting
software. These are the Amiga's two BIG software ommissions.
Specifically, I would love to see Quicken available on the Amiga. After
having used it on the PC, I can't imagine using anything else to track
finances.
Phasar is a pretty good Amiga accounting/check-writing program. So is Home
Accounts, and Gold Disk has one, too. Whether any of these could handle
business accounts is another question. The real problem with Amiga stuff
isn't that it is there…it is. But awareness is low because advertising is
nearly non-existent, as is product recognition. Which is why Quicken if
ported would sell some Amigas. Unfair, but that's life. >>>> Ron Legro /
Milwaukee via WHAP!
"Wherever you go, there you are!"
Actually, when I last saw Phaser, it wasn't even in the same ballpark as
Quicken. For a $9.95 product (that's really how much I paid for Quicken
for Windows NEW in the store) they have spent an unbelievable amount of
time on user interface. That is what makes the product tick. I wouldn't
mind taking the time to port it to the Amiga… Hmmmm…
Ten bucks for Quicken? Amazing. I've been thinking of getting a new
accounting system for Syndesis, and I'd been looking at Quicken. I'd love
to get something that would track orders, print payroll checks, help with
inventory – but it's very hard to compare these PC products, and determine
what they really do for $9 or $99 versus $999, once the truly useful
add-ons are purchased…
I have seen Quicken sell for anywhere between $5 (Special promotional deal)
to $79.95. Im My Humble Opinion, it is absolutely the best finance package
around. We track all of our checking, savings, money market, retirement
funds, investment accounts, loans, mortgage, and monthly budget with it.
We use it to write checks and keep the checkbook balance. Personally, I
would have paid $300 (what I paid for Borland C) for Quicken because of all
the time that it has saved me. I also run all of the business accounting
for Obvious Implementations on it (actually the Accountant does the work
with it). I am also seriously considering looking at CheckFree as an added
product even though we already print checks.
I haven't tried it for inventory or orders (YET), so that side is on your
own, but I do know that they do have some addons for it.
Add TurboTax to your collection. You can set up everything taxable in
Quicken and at years' end it will be automatically transferred to the
right line in TurboTax. Hard to beat.
Already have TurboTax. We used it for last years taxes and it found
something that I had forgotten about saving me $600 in the process. In my
view, the program has paid for itself for a couple of years now. TurboTax
is also great for doing what if scenarios in the middle of the year to
allow you to adjust your taxes. It is a shame that TurboTax is not up to
the quality level that Quicken is.
Agreed. However – I do wish that we had programs for the Amiga that would
do as well, and that would work together so nicely.
You are really pushing me to give a call to chipsoft to see if they want to
move their application….
So where can I find it for $5? Do you remember where the promotion was?
And where did you get it for $10?
B. Daltons was running a special that included a big rebate. The last time
I looked, the price was hovering between $20 and $30 at B. Daltons and
Electronics Botique.
Robert: I use Gold Disk Advantage, and it imports/exports 1-2-3
spreadsheets as an option. I think other top of the line Amiga spreadsheets
do likewise. >>>> Ron Legro / Milwaukee via WHAP!
"Wherever you go, there you are!"
Ron:
Does GD's Advantage handle the importing of 1-2-3 files _with_ the lotus
macros intact?
// Michael
\X/ …on AutoPilot